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Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Re-watching this series for the 2nd time. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for Season 2, and it was just as good this time around. Frank Sobotka is a great character - the scene where he talks to Ziggy from jail is just heartbreaking. That he can still look at his son and tell him he's "a Sobotka" is really a touching moment when you consider how easy it would have been for Frank to disown his son or be sanctimonious.

Also, Bunny Colvin and Dennis Wise are my two favorites, for similar reasons I guess. The actor that plays Colvin is SO good at being a warm, grandfatherly guy who can flip a switch and be a hardass in about 1 second. When the show reveals that McNulty was once one of Colvin's troopers I can't help but grin like an idiot watching them laugh about old times and "Bushytop". When Rawls and Burrell are drilling Colvin at his final COMStat meeting and Bunny goes "get on with it motherfucker" I get goosebumps every time. SUCH a great moment of total honesty in a room bathed in bullshit - and probably the only time anyone stands up to Rawls directly in the whole series. Someone said earlier that Bubs is really the only character with a "good" ending but I have to disagree and say that Dennis is the only character with a truly positive ending. As much as a I want to think Bubs stayed on the straight and narrow, I'm much more confident that Cutty stayed legit and clean. Makes me feel great just thinking about it.

As an aside, Burrell calling Johns Hopkins and loving Bunny over is, in my opinion, one of the coldest and most truly evil things done in the series. I mean, it's just 100% pure petty revenge - Burrell gets nothing out of it at all. Most if not all of the heinous poo poo done in the show is in pursuit of profit or to protect one's interests (not that it excuses them) but that one act is unfiltered spite.

Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Jan 14, 2013

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Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
It's an interesting point about Stringer trying to "reform the game" but I have to disagree. Stringer was often the voice of caution against violence with Avon, but he also wanted to straight up murder a sitting State Senator because he felt he had been ripped off, and he had D murdered so he could sleep with his girlfriend (though he rationalized it as D being a weak link to everyone else). Stringer was never a legit businessman despite how hard he may have tried to appear that way. Pretty much every scene involving String's legit businesses ended up with him losing his temper and yelling at his hired help or his business partners. The scene in season 2 where D talks about The Great Gatsby is, in my opinion, a direct reference to Stringer trying to pretend to be something he's not. When McNulty finally gets into String's apartment he finds these pristine books, one of which is Wealth of Nations. My guess is that String never read that book. String's displayed knowledge of economics was never insightful - it was always shallow and I think the show was trying to demonstrate that he was misguided. Taking a few basic econ courses at a Community College doesn't make a person become Steve Jobs. String only wanted to be a businessman until he faced obstacles - then he showed his true colors.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
3.9 "Slapstick"

E:FB drat you

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
I love speculating about the futures of the characters of this show. I know it's not the most practical thing to do given that the writers have said everything they want to say about them, but I can't help not imagining what McNulty or Michael do following the last credits. Perhaps the most interesting to speculate on is Marlo though - the guy has millions of dollars of clean money. Enough to get out of the game for good and live a pretty lavish lifestyle if he wants it. But all he cares about is his rep, as he shows in his last scene. I like to think that without Chris and Snoop backing him, Marlo attempts to get back in the game and gets taken out by Michael. Maybe too Hollywood I know, but that would have been a fierce showdown.

EDIT - I love "you're a soldier Boadie". You can tell McNulty actually has a lot of respect for Boadie, but it's laced with a bit of sadness too. Great line that really sums up a relationship between two compelling characters.

Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jan 25, 2013

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Season 3 for me is by far the best. Not only do I have a shameful love for the Neville Brothers, the credits themselves feature my favorite little clip in all the opening credits, Major Colvin donning his police hat while walking by a slide show of crime stats. That shot speaks volumes and having Aaron Neville going on in the background is just perfect.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
I have to disagree. I think McNulty is definitely the "main" character of the show but not in the sense of your typical TV series. It's true that in Season 4 he isn't on screen all that much, but even then his absence is still a big part of the story arc, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the show begins with McNulty taking on Barksdale and ends with McNulty leaving the force.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

3Romeo posted:

If Daniels had never been assigned to Major Crimes, or if he'd listened to his wife and just focused on climbing the ladder, do you think he would have turned into another Burrell?

That's a really great question. I'm inclined to think probably not though. I mean eventually cops in those types of leadership positions get faced with tough moral decisions like that, no matter how they duck the work or try to avoid responsibility. At his core Daniels is a decent human being who sees the department as needing serious reform. Sure he's concerned about his career but I just can't see someone who was so committed to the Barksdale detail becoming a shill for the system given a slightly different series of events.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Or Cash or George Jones.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

escape artist posted:

Haven't heard Jones but of course I love Johnny Cash.

This right here is some vintage Jones. He's the last of what many consider to be the real country musicians (before Garth Brooks ruined the genre by turning it into pop music). When he sings about drinking and heartache, he's not bull-making GBS threads. He's known as "No-Show Jones" because so many times during his career, he'd be scheduled to perform before some audience somewhere but he'd be passed out drunk in a seedy bar or motel. I grew up listening to him because of my dad and man, even though I'm not big on country in general I can't help but love this man.

Sorry for the derail - just had to put that out there!

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
It's a valid point that Frank is only loyal to "his own people" but at least he's loyal to them as opposed to nobody. When that one stevedore is on the verge of leaving Frank makes sure to get him enough money to help him out. I mean, it's not some shining example of pure altruism given the money's source, but at least he takes care of his own. Then you have people like Burrell, Carcetti, and even Rawls who are ok with loving over everyone around them for their own personal gain, even those that trust them. Loyalty to a tribe is better than loyalty to nothing.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

Alhazred posted:

Snoop was probably the only character who I needed subtitles to understand what the gently caress she was saying.

As far as I know she's the closest the show comes to depicting what real street lingo in B-more sounds like. I mean, they did basically pluck her right off the corners.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Do any of you guys think Stringer had D killed for the reasons he gives Avon? To me it always seemed like Stringer only killed D so that he could move in on his girlfriend, given that String didn't really know what D was up to in prison.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
I agree - I think it's left ambiguous whether or not they knew they were selling each other out. The important thing was that the world they'd come to know as friends and partners was as of that night effectively gone. They had both accomplished more than they ever dreamed, but each was too selfish or compromised to ever really enjoy it together.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

ChairMaster posted:

Stringer's game is quiet and diplomatic, nobody shoots each other and he makes friends with the other big name dealers in the city and they all share profits.

Stringer indicated that he was willing to have a State Senator murdered because he let himself get fleeced. As cautious as Stringer seems to be compared to Avon, he's still more than happy to use murder at the drop of a hat. I doubt Avon would have ever considered killing someone like Clay Davis, even if he had cause.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

Basebf555 posted:

For me the saddest scene in the entire series is the conversation between Ziggy and Frank in prison.

In a series overflowing with incredible performances, this scene ranks up there among the most well-acted. You can see the completely hopelessness in Ziggy's face the whole time. His life is over before it really even began. He'll never get out of prison, and prison for him is going to be a living hell because the type of behavior he's exhibited throughout the show just won't fly in the slam. Instead of getting put on top of a shipping crate and laughed at, he'll be beaten and raped for stepping out of line.

Frank knows all this, and the actor playing him somehow manages to be enraged, shocked, profoundly sad, and yet still proud of his son all at the same time. He sees his own weaknesses in his son, and it's such a painful but revelatory moment for him.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
That's always been my impression as well regarding Daniels. McNulty's G-Man buddy specifically tells Jimmy that Daniels's asset investigation revealed that he had way more assets than he should have given his salary. This is really interesting because Daniels is one of the few characters in the show who have a very strong moral center even though he does make concessions to it every once in a while (he helps his guys fabricate a story to cover for the police car being burned, etc.). Knowing that he actually stole drug money back in the day makes his fierce opposition to Herc and Carver doing the same hypocritical but understandable.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
The two scenes that struck me the most:

-In Season 2 when Frank visits Ziggy in prison and tells him basically that it doesn't matter, he's still his son and he's a Sobotka. That poo poo rips me up.

-In Season 3 (I think) when McNulty tells D'Angelo's mom that he was murdered and that it's absolutely her fault. The way he lays it out so coldly, especially when he even admits to liking D as a person, is the most satisfying moment in the series for me and shows McNulty at his absolute best.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
I also really liked Cutty's arc. He's really the only character to quit the streets (by that I mean being a real player in the game) and find happiness. Watching him teeter on the edge of falling back into that life only to balk at that crucial moment is one of my favorite parts in the series. People can change.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Also I think it's one of the Wire's strengths that it doesn't paint institutions like the PD or prison or Unions as 100% good or bad. There are people who go to prison and come out better people. poo poo, D'Angelo looked like he was actually exploring some real feelings and growing as a person before he ended up dead. He was becoming an addict sure, but he was also taking a real look at his life on the street and coming to some difficult conclusions about how all the poo poo about loyalty, family, etc. was just that - bullshit. Had D lived I could see him turning out the way Cutty did.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
I don't think anything Mouzone did was particularly out there. His rep is what made him seem like Superman, while he himself wasn't all that impressive. Omar jumping out of a high rise apartment building and living was way crazier than that.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Man that is so true about "any other show". One of The Wire's greatest strengths is its unflinching portrayal of police departments as riddled with severe problems just like any other big institution.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

plainswalker75 posted:

Didn't she become his longtime girlfriend/wife?

Yes. And to say that Lester "bangs informants" is not a fair assessment. Was it 100% appropriate for Lester to pursue the dancer in Season 1 while she was working with the police? Probably not, but to act like it's some sort of common schtick with Lester is pure speculation countered by the fact that he and Charlene ended up in a lengthy, committed relationship. Lester wasn't some creepy perv just wanting to move in on a vulnerable woman, he obviously had real feelings for her from the moment they met. There's nothing wrong with that except that maybe he should have waited to make his feelings more obvious until the investigation was over.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

Basebf555 posted:

I think part of it was also to demonstrate how the streets just keep getting worse and worse, and the anger, bitterness, and emptiness people feel is being concentrated inside them much more quickly and dangerously. Twenty years ago when Omar was Kenard's age nobody really had to worry about 9-year olds shooting people in the back of the head.

This can really be seen in Bunk's anger at Omar for helping to create this new world where murder is just another tool to be used.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

Boywhiz88 posted:

Also, just finished my summer rewatch and Bodie's death will never not loving hurt.

When my wife and I watched this series this was the only time she cried.

I think the part when Colvin gets hosed over for his post-retirement position is one of the most depressingly real moments for me. It just solidified how far gone the upper level leadership in the PD was. At that point it was just pure spite, not even politics or anything.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
No they definitely pop off multiple rounds up and at the tower in response to the bottles/objects being thrown at the patrol car. In my most recent re-watch I distinctly remember thinking that there's no way the cops' fire could be directed at actual discernible targets and they are lucky some innocent kid didn't get shot as a result.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

comes along bort posted:

Nah, Prez fires one shot into the towers as Herc scrambles under the car and Carver calls for backup.

It's not conclusive but this clip shows Prez firing the round followed by 3 identical gun discharge sounds. It's not until the 5th shot that the sound changes which to me suggests that Prez fired at least 4 shots at the towers. Herc and Carver are not shown firing any rounds.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
I'll throw out True Detective as well - I think it's the best TV since The Wire. For me, Breaking Bad was really good, but not Great. For the poster saying they were thinking about The Sopranos, do yourself a favor and start today. The modern TV golden age we're experiencing is largely due to The Sopranos achieving such popular acclaim and like The Wire, it gets better with every re-watch.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

MrSlam posted:

What I'm wondering now is what I'll be watching after both these series. Should I catch up on Person of Interest? Should I start Justified? Should I chisel away at my gigantic backlog of anime?

If you haven't seen True Detective I would put that above anything else. It's the best TV since the Wire in my opinion. I actually think it's the single strongest season of TV I've ever seen.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Daniels is one of the best examples of this show's characters being neither "good" nor "bad" outright. Here's a guy who straight up lies to CID to cover up a brutal, violent act by one of his officers yet sacrifices his own career because of that same loyalty to his people. Daniels' commitment to those under him is a constant trait but it makes him both heroic and morally compromised, depending on how it manifests.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

Jerusalem posted:

Avon just listens to what Cutty has to say, laughs when he realizes how little he is asking for, hands over far more than he needs to and casually dismisses the idea of being recognized for it (which Cutty goes ahead and does anyway :3:).

This is my single favorite moment in the entire series. The way Avon treats Cutty in general gives him (Avon) a heroic aspect that contrasts heavily against Marlo.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

Suxpool posted:

:words: about Omar

Also don't forget that he basically turned a legendary NY assassin brought in to specifically hit him into an ally through a combination of direct violence and an appeal to his sense of honor.

Omar is a loving hero and everyone in those projects knew it. Michael consciously/subconsciously mimicking him makes perfect sense.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

Ginette Reno posted:

Cheese might have been the vehicle through which Joe got betrayed but ultimately Marlo would have found some other way to stick it to him anyways. It was always going to be a mistake to bring Marlo into the fold of the co-op. Marlo was a leader, not a follower. He would have seized on any advantage he could get over Joe.

Marlo made the same mistake with Michael, though. Michael had too much of an independent streak in him to remain unfailingly loyal to Marlo. Marlo wanted Michael in the fold because of his fearlessness and willingness to step to anyone (both attributes Marlo strove for himself) but ironically those same attributes prevented Michael from having the same type of company man style loyalty that Chris, Snoop, and O-Dog had.

At any rate if Avon had stayed out of jail and maintained his muscle it's unlikely Marlo would have been able to compete with him after the high rises went down. Avon with Slim, Wee-Bey, etc plus a much larger war chest would have been enough to drive Marlo from the streets. Even as diminished as Avon's organization was by season 3 he was still about to execute a successful hit against Marlo right up until the police raided the warehouse. And that was with Avon without his best hitters.

Respectfully disagree. Prop Joe was in the game for a long rear end time and he did it by staying humble and staying alert. Cheese was his weak spot because he was family. One has to assume that Joe didn't have all that many lieutenants that he kept on such a loose leash. One of the themes of The Wire for me is that while things are cyclical, they are not repetitive- certain old ways of doing things, social norms, etc., exist for a while and then they are used as weapons by those desperate or underhanded enough to wield them. Think of Bunk's speech to Omar about the way things were when they were growing up and how things have gotten so much worse, or the attempted hit on Sunday, or Omar being unable to see a child as a deadly threat. Times do change and whatever code of conduct exists out there, it's just another way for someone to get at you.

This is one of those moments for me- Joe values family and his old fashioned ways are his undoing. Cheese was THE way to get to him.

EDIT: Charles killing him in the end is so satisfying because the viewer wants to believe there is a code to the street. To some degree there is, but it's only as powerful as the sum total of all who choose to practice it.

Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jan 17, 2018

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
I think Joe had way more support than Marlo did among the rank and file, and would have won in an open war with Marlo. The only way for Marlo to get to Joe was through Cheese, because the show gives us no indication that anyone else in the entire co-op would have turned on Joe. I mean poo poo, Joe was so popular that Cheese gets blasted months later in pure retribution by someone who wasn't even one of Joe's guys.

Marlo pulled a definite coup when he got to Cheese, and I just don't think Marlo would have been able to pull it off any other way. I don't think Joe doubted that Marlo was dangerous or would come at him- he just didn't think Cheese would be the rat.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

bucketybuck posted:

I'm currently watching season one again, and I have to admit I'm not sure why the squad are so upset about Rawls wanting to charge D'Angelo with those murders?

They say it would have gutted their case but why? The wiretap doesn't even need to be mentioned, its just a homicide detective reviewing old cases who saw a name, decided to review the scene and found some evidence, why even mention the ongoing investigation? And it wouldn't make the Barksdales change anything up, because its just a detective who was sore at D'Angelo getting released previously, going and finding a way to get him, it wouldn't mean anything else.

And once he is arrested he would have been ripe to try and flip, which is what they wanted surely?

My take was that they wanted more time to catch Avon or Stringer dead to rights- they all knew this would be their one big shot to put them away and they'd be going back to their days jobs afterward (which many of them hated). I don't think any of them wanted to stake all their work on the possibility of D'Angelo flipping.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Frankie Faison will always be the landlord from Coming to America for me. "Hey Stu! Rent's due motherfucker, and don't you be pullin' that falling down the stairs poo poo with me rear end in a top hat. Yeah, you conscious!"

Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Jul 6, 2018

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

deoju posted:

Prez also has a bit part in Band of Brothers. He plays Dick Winters' (Damien Lewis) orderly. Ron Livingston asks him to get some bacon sandwiches.


Not the same guy.

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Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, The Wire

The holy trifecta.

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