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awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

escape artist posted:

Thing is, we all have our own style. Frankly, I think Jerusalem is more insightful than me. I'm more of a behind-the-scenes and paralleled characters and repeated lines type of guy.

But we can no doubt combine all of our abilities!

I'd be stoked to see multiple writeups of episodes (even if they were out of order) specifically because of the different approaches you guys take. Like, absolutely season 3 is an allegory for the war in iraq, but it's more than that, and I'd be keen to see what escape artist and jerusalem pick out of it.

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awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

BattleCake posted:

It's a bit soul-crushing how the ending to each season is mostly depressing, or at best bittersweet. There are no (or at least very few) "happy endings" on this show.

Bubbles (I read an interview before season 5 came out that said they felt like they had to give ONE character a happy ending or it would just be too depressing)

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Spoilers Below posted:

.... He's more upset about losing his rosary than anything else, perhaps because it has some personal attachment, but even that he dismisses in the end with a simple shrug....

Probably worry beads, not a rosary - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worry_beads

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Jerusalem posted:


In the Western District, Herc is continuing to bargain with Carver - he doesn't just want Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen in return for sex with a man, he wants them AND Mary Tyler Moore in her prime AND Dozerman's girlfriend as well. Carver agrees angrily but demands Herc just tell him which man he'd have sex with to get these four women (this was all supposed to be a quick fun joke, after all), and Herc finally tells him - he'd have sex with Gus Triandos because he felt sorry for him for having to catch Hoyt Wilhelm's knuckleball. With that finally out of the way, he tells Carver to go ahead and mock him, but Carver informs him that there is no mocking, he made a carefully thought out choice. They all head out, preparing for a number of hand-to-hand arrests of street-level dealers, Carver warning everybody not to embarrass themselves by not loading their cameras with film, and makes a point of staring at Herc when he says it.


Hilarious backstory for this one http://davidsimon.com/gus-triandos-1930-2013/

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Jerusalem posted:

Stringer's big mistake (and it's not really one you can blame him for) was that he sent Bodie as an equal to talk to Marlo

This is interesting, because a lot of Stringer's mistakes are of this type. He doesn't understand the street - you can see it in this with Marlo, you can see it the conversation he has with Brother in the hospital, you can see it in a lot of his dealing with Avon (about the deal with Joe). It's what gets him killed, in the end; he doesn't understand that Omar and Brother won't/can't just forget about him.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

KPC_Mammon posted:

I never understood why people held that decision against Carcetti.

...
but at least this way he might be able to make a difference in two years.
No, this way he's able to continue lying to himself that he might be able to make a difference in 2 years while actually screwing the people he serves every time there's a hard choice. Sure, he'll want to do the right thing - they always do (see Royce re hamsterdam) - but he'll do what's best for Thomas Carcetti in the end.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

escape artist posted:

Slim is a tough guy and a killer, no doubt, but he's not without emotions.

This sentimental motherfucker just cost us money!

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

escape artist posted:

*Slim and Avon look at each other and crack up*
"He went through all that for $10,000? Slim, go get him $15,000 cash."

Then Avon hugs Cutty and says "take care of them little niggas." Once again, such a contrast to Marlo.

Marlo was giving out free money to kids for their school stuff. I can see a difference in that Marlo was doing it with his name attached, whereas Avon didn't want his name on the boxing gym. Marlo wasn't a huge fan of being turned down, but I can't imagine Avon taking that disrespect very well either.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Fragmented posted:

Yeah it's a really sad story. He was a kind soul who became an addict in like the worst place a nice person could become an addict.

God the amount of money we spend on helping(yes helping!) people like Gary become addicts by having this stupid drug war flood the streets with drugs because we have made them so profitable is sickening. We need to just fully legalize and have rehabs on all the corners the narcotic police used to chill at.

I really liked the corner because Simon acknowledges this solution (legalized, lots of rehabs) would be better than what we've got now, but it wouldn't really change much for addicts.

It's an amazing book and everyone should read it.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Fragmented posted:

It's true that when everything is decriminalized the amount of users doesn't really change, but that also means there aren't more addicts just because it's easier to get drugs. And the people who are addicts don't have to worry about jail time, harassment, etc. It would be a HUGE change for addicts. When i was hooked on pills i had to go to a loving methadone clinic to get off them and most people that go to those places don't get off methadone like ever, i feel lucky i did.

If there would have been a free rehab(have you ever had to look into how much pay rehabs cost? Cause i have and it's a lot) i would have checked in as soon as i knew i had a problem.

I see your point about free vs paid-for rehabs, but the fact remains that users (let alone addicts) generally don't want to stop using. But yeah more rehabs would make it easier for the (relatively) few who want to quit to do so.

But talking strictly about the situation described in the book, the fiends were often getting arrested or beat on for things they were doing to get their dope money, not for possession. They'd still be getting harassed, arrested etc because even with legal drugs they still need to get money somehow. If the only thing you changed was making crack legal, fiends would rob dispensaries instead of dealers.

The whole point of The Corner, in my mind, is that there's no quick fix. You can up welfare, you can legalize drugs, you can keep arresting people, you can do basically whatever you can think of and not much will change unless society as a whole actually starts giving a gently caress about the underclass.

FE: its a good book everyone should read it

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

the black husserl posted:

Actually I kinda hate the NA narrative that you have to "want" to get clean, I dont think drug addiction has anything to do with desire or willpower. I believe that drug use is the adaptive response of a human being who lives in poo poo conditions. The rich medicate their depression/anxiety with alcohol and pills, the poor medicate with crack and heroin. You can't "want" your way out of mental illness and the subsequent self medication.

Have you read the Corner? Gary actually succeeds in kicking heroin pretty good one time, except that when he does he finds himself with a much worse problem: clinical depression. Which turns out to be more debilitating than heroin addiction, since at least as an addict he could maintain a steady job.
I've spent like 15 minutes trying to write a reply because I just don't understand what you're saying. You think people don't actually desire the feeling they get from taking drugs? Not as a tool for self medication, but as a goal in and of itself?
I'm not disagreeing that wanting to stop is insufficient, for the reasons you outlined, but I do think it's necessary.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Orange Devil posted:

Addiction is caused by alienation, and guess what alienation is caused by.
Any social interaction where a risk of rejection, real or perceived, exists?

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

the black husserl posted:

No I'm pretty sure "you must hit Rock Bottom* and have your Moment of Clarity before you can overcome your addiction" is exactly the narrative created by AA.

They've done a very good job of making it seem like "common sense" and "the only option that works" but the evidence doesn't support that. Also, I would read the Corner, it rules.



*Inherent in this philosophy is the idea that we shouldn't try to help addicts who are on their way down because it won't "work" unless they hit "bottom". What's the point of social programs or needle exchanges? You're just preventing addicts from reaching their bottom! This bootstrapping attitude is one reason why AA is so compatible with the capitalist system that the Wire details. God helps those who help themselves.

I am curious, although we've gone quite a long way off topic by now - how do you propose rehabilitating addicts who have no wish to stop using?

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

SubponticatePoster posted:

I think in those cases you move to harm reduction - clean needles, drugs that aren't cut with rat poison and other poo poo, and medical treatment for any problems that develop. Addiction is a continuum, not an either/or. It's possible to be addicted to something but still functional and not catching HIV or dying from sepsis helps with that.
No, the black husserl specifically said

quote:

Actually I kinda hate the NA narrative that you have to "want" to get clean
Implying that is it possible (and easier than the alternative) to get clean without wanting to get clean. We're not talking about harm reduction, we're talking about abstinence.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Ainsley McTree posted:

I don't doubt it. And I imagine that somebody in that position spends so much time watching the political machine at work that after a while, they probably almost don't care who wins, since they're all going to end up doing the same things anyway.

He started drinking the Carcetti kool-aid over the course of the season, only to have his expectations bust up when Carcetti wouldn't take the school money. Remember that scene with Norman and Royce's CoS? "They always disappoint", I think the quote was.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

cletepurcel posted:

It should also be noted that Whiting's use of "Dickensian" (as well as the title of an upcoming episode, "The Dickensian Aspect") was probably a jab/nod at critics who often described The Wire as "Dickensian". I think Simon was trying to make the same "You people are missing the point" thing that he's done recently with people who watch The Wire and then just argue over who was the best character or whatever.

I mised this before but

david simon interview posted:


So there was a little bit of tongue-in-cheek satire on the show directed at people who were using Dickens to praise us. But the other thing is much more simple, which is the editor of the Baltimore Sun when I was covering the drug trade, when I was trying to explain what was happening in the city in terms that made economic sense to me... When I was coming back off of the reporting for The Corner and preparing to go back to the newspaper, this editor and I talked about writing columns about life on the streets in West Baltimore. That, to me, would have been the narrative equivalent of telling some stories that you ultimately saw on The Wire, but using real people. The first one that I tried to tell, for a variety of reasons, some of them emotional and some of them due to the fact that we weren’t getting along, he spiked. It was about a guy very much like the Wire character Bubbles who was harvesting metal—two guys harvesting metal, actually. This editor spiked the story without explanation.

He came to me and said, “I want to do the stories that are about the Dickensian lives of children growing up in West Baltimore.” What he was saying was, “If you give me a nice, cute eight-, nine-year-old kid who doesn’t have a pencil, who doesn’t have a schoolbook, who lives in poverty, who’s big eyed and sweet and who I can make the reader fall in love with, I can win a fuckin’ prize with that. Write me that poo poo....Don’t give me a guy who’s, like, trying to get high but maintain his dignity. Don’t give me anything complicated.” And he really used the word “Dickensian.”

I still have the email he sent me. It happened over a period of about two months, but that was one of the moments where I knew I had to go. So I was really just quoting this editor, John Carroll. I came back trying to explain how utterly bereft economically West Baltimore was, how distanced it was from the world that we were pretending to be, how it was not even a part of our world anymore. All he wanted to do was reach back and grab some cute kids and run with them to win a prize. That’s who he was.
So in true David Simon fashion, the dickhead editor using the word dickensian was in fact a direct jab at his dickhead ex-editor using the word dickensian. Simon is not a man to go with subtleties when a straight character assassination will do. From here

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Atlas Hugged posted:

No disagreement that the show isn't really about the wiretaps, but it's hard not to be annoyed at the literal plot even when the themes are interesting. Just because I'm not watching a show that's "about" wiretaps doesn't mean they don't feature prominently and repetitively into the plot.

I think this is just a quirk for you that maybe other people don't share very much. But fair enough, different strokes.
You're right about the 5th season tho.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

drunken officeparty posted:

I know he isn't supposed to be talking to the judge about things, I don't know why though. I mean they are on the same team and everything right?

Have you ever worked in a large company before? It's like that, but more so. Unhealthy office politics, people stabbing other people in the back to get ahead, people getting very very upset when someone screws them, petty vindictiveness, etc.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

drunken officeparty posted:

NO not Wallace you assholes how could you
I really like this show because it doesn't matter whether you understand the petty bullshit that's going on or not, the collateral damage caused by the office politics still gets you in the gut

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

MrBling posted:

Lester might seem like a nice guy, but he's sort of a dick.

He basically hauled McNulty back from the happy place he had gone to in season 4 just because he couldn't resist one more chance to gently caress the bosses. Jimmy had stopped drinking, had gotten together with Beadie and settled down. He was happy. Lester ruined all that.

What? That was because he felt guilty about bodie, it had nothing to do with lester.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Protect and serve, lieutenant, protect and serve.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Hahaha it's way way funnier and more accurate if you pretend its about namond's mom not about snoop.
e:vvv i read some of his books and now I feel the same way X-MOTHERFUCKIN-D

awesmoe fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Aug 7, 2014

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Finndo posted:

Or, put another way, if they had the muscle to force everyone off the corners to Hamsterdam, they had the muscle to keep them off the corners, period.
This doesn't follow.
e: there was no real downside to hamsterdam from the dealers pov, so they moved there with not too much resistance. The same wouldn't have been true for just not dealing at all.

awesmoe fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Aug 14, 2014

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

KaosPV posted:

Yeah, I guess those kind of things were the ones that were pushing me towards my previous idea. But I think thathonkey got it right, and maybe those "ideas he implemented" were just lucky guesses or stabs in the dark he took. Kind of like making him delusional he was actually that businessman genius, until he got, well... rain danced. Gotta love that dialogue, btw.

He kinda tried to run when he should have been crawling. The basic economics stuff (rebranding etc) worked for him where he was at, going into property development didn't.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

thathonkey posted:

Speaking of related books, I bought a copy of The Corner accidentally (long story, not a loaded statement). Is it worth reading? I've already seen the HBO miniseries based on it (which was excellent and I'm pretty sure most Wire fans would enjoy it, the entire thing was on Youtube for a while but it looks like it got pulled, sorry y'all).

It might be an exaggeration to call it life-changing. maybe.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

nwin posted:

So I'm not going to go through the whole thread, but did anyone ever find out the reason for the trains and train tracks coinciding with the episodes?
? What do you mean?

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

bucketybuck posted:

So if Stringer was a little bit smarter, instead of saying "not on the phone" he should just always end a call like that by saying "I have to go"?
just yelling "yo close the door" down the phone

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Ithaqua posted:

I'm just finishing up season 2 on my HD rewatch so this isn't exactly fresh, but I remember it being a bit more nuanced than that. He gradually found some common ground and ways to reach out to the kids and put the material he was teaching in terms that made sense to them, and also became better at making due with the resources he had available. Very similar in some regards to Wallace with the young kid in season 1, where the kids can't handle a simple addition/subtraction word problem when it's in terms of passengers getting on and off a bus, but is able to do the exact same thing easily when it's put in terms of keeping the count of drugs right.

"If you mess up the count, they gently caress you up"

Also, the major trouble-makers were removed from his class

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

theblackw0lf posted:

President Obama and David Simon sat down together to talk about The Wire and the issues it raised

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...hjw&app=desktop

I find it endlessly amusing and not at all surprising that david simon even interrupts the president

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Ginette Reno posted:

I dunno, The Greek is arguably more sympathetic than Marlo. The Greek murders people, true, but he does so out of self preservation. Marlo has people killed because he likes the reputation it brings. With the Greek, if business is going smoothly, nobody is getting murdered.
If business is going smoothly it's because he's successfully moving sex slaves (and drugs) across the atlantic

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

nerdman42 posted:

Meanwhile, I am immensely concerned about these kids. None of those stories can end well.
HA! Joke's on you!

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Jerusalem posted:

"Sure I told him I was going to drown him in the harbor, let the crabs eat his body, then give the crabs to his family to eat..... but I did NOT tell him to put on a hoody and come to my neighborhood so I could shoot him!"

I mean i might have told him to put on a hoodie and come to my neighbourhood so I could shoot him. I don't recall saying that. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of what I say to who, you know?

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Pocket Billiards posted:

Michael's transformation into an Omar type of stickup man is no where near as hamfisted as Dukie becoming a junkie I thought.

I mean all the elements are there - addict parents, no prospects on the corner, education, work, etc. But unless I missed something it just jumps from working and then living with the arabbers to shooting heroin. Up until that point you really don't see any indication that he has much to with the drugs at all, other than a bit of work on the corner that Prez sees.

what's he gonna to, NOT take the one magical substance that will make him forget about his lovely failure of a life?

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

1-800-DOCTORB posted:

I didn't realize James Franco was playing two characters until they both showed up in the same scene.


Who is making a thread for The Deuce?

Professor Shark

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Ginette Reno posted:

I actually wasn't a huge fan of that. It felt kinda self serving to me. Like it was what David Simon really wanted to say to someone so he had Mcnulty say it to Templeton.

But I didn't like the Templeton character at all. He was just so one note, which is weirdly out of place on the Wire with how multifaceted most of the characters are.

he (simon) was way too emotionally close to the newspaper stuff for it to have the same perspective as everything else on the show

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

exmachina posted:

Yeah, but cynicism about their occupation comes a lot more naturally to teachers than to journalists, especially at the time the wire was made.

And thinking about it now, the teachers (not admin staff) are also all longsuffering saints, iirc.
But it’s written better so it’s easier to forgive.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

feedmegin posted:

I'm British and I got a watered down glass of wine with Sunday lunch once I hit my teenaged years

so he's completely right, then

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

WithoutTheFezOn posted:

McNulty picked Bodie up at jail, without Bodie knowing about it. That is directly why Bodie got shot.

bodie got shot because marlo was a monster who ordered people murdered at the slightest hint of suspicion or of disrespect

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

The bribes were in exchange for davis telling them which areas the city was planning on redeveloping. Barksdale would bribe davis to get that info, buy up the properties in those areas dirt cheap cos they were basically vacant/busted, then the city would buy them back from him (at inflated rates that he got to control) for redevelopment.
There's a scene in probably the second to last episode with lester at the board pinning up a newspaper on it when he explains it to prez.

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awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Basebf555 posted:

He's a great example of how someone can do bad things for ultimately the right reasons, and how little that matters to the people who have to directly experience the negative consequences of those decisions.
as is bubbles, with sherrod

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