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Did PT for the month of January Then car issues in February Then I got sick Then my gym was re-doing the flooring in their bouldering area Finally got to climb for like the 3rd time this year, today. My hands are so baby soft and my endurance is shot. Feels good to hopefully/finally be done with all the interruptions and get back to it.
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Mar 13, 2022 20:42
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Sab669 posted:Did PT for the month of January I just got back from my 2nd session since the middle of November. In spite of working remotely most of the time I managed to get 2 serious respiratory diseases this winter, and I've also just finished buying a house, so between all that and some major work crunch due to systems changes and training up new staff, I'm just now at the point where I feel like I have enough spare time and energy to get back to climbing. 2020 was kind of garbage but I did really appreciate going for an entire year without getting sick even once
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Mar 13, 2022 21:11
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I've only had a few regular colds, but yea I miss never getting sick lol. 'grats on the house; able to build a home wall? 
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Mar 13, 2022 21:57
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Sab669 posted:I've only had a few regular colds, but yea I miss never getting sick lol. 'grats on the house; able to build a home wall? I'm hoping at least to be able to make a little training area in the garage once we're settled in better, long term we're hoping to be able to rebuild the garage into a gym but that's going to be a major project
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Mar 13, 2022 22:26
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There’s a used hold sale at the gym right now and even tho I have zero chance of living somewhere that I could build a home climbing wall in for quite awhile I’m so tempted (Also ty for shoe advice! Going to see if the solution fits)
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Mar 13, 2022 22:43
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Check if any holds companies near you offer subscriptions. I had a subscription from escape climbing in MN when I built my woody. I think I was in their $50/month plan, and normally would get 3-7 holds per month. It was great for variety, and it gave me something to look forward to. The holds always were a great value too(normally would have been $60-85 worth of holds). Their more expensive subs also came with the ability to request hold types, colors, sizes, etc. I picked up bouldering at the age of like 34 right before the pandemic started. I max out at like v4-v5 at my gym(Minneapolis Bouldering Project) , but am hoping to get out and try climbing on real rocks this summer. I’ve tried once and it was…humbling. I think I could climb up to a grade higher if I wasn’t such a wuss. I struggle getting into a mood where I really push myself, which I’m trying to get over. Also looking to lose about 10-15 pounds too :/.
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Mar 16, 2022 02:49
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asur posted:If you can go smaller in a 47 Tarantulace then in theory I'd expect a 46 to fit and the Solution, Miura and Skawma all come in that size and are slightly different highly aggressive shoes. The Katana also comes in 46 and is less aggressive than those 3 but more aggressive than the Tarantulace. Ty for the suggestions, turns out Solution is a bit small in 46, but I've heard the Skwama stretches more so I'll try that and the Miura first. DoctaFun posted:I think I was in their $50/month plan, and normally would get 3-7 holds per month. It was great for variety, and it gave me something to look forward to. The holds always were a great value too(normally would have been $60-85 worth of holds). If I ever live somewhere a house is feasible I'll have to try this, that's cool.
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Mar 16, 2022 04:23
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DoctaFun posted:(Minneapolis Bouldering Project) I really like this place. In the before time I would be up there for work and run the 1.5 miles there, climb, and run back.
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Mar 16, 2022 05:30
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spwrozek posted:I really like this place. In the before time I would be up there for work and run the 1.5 miles there, climb, and run back. I don’t have a whole lot to compare it to, but I think they are fantastic. Plenty of space, a lot of variety in route setting, and they do a great job catering to all skill levels.
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Mar 17, 2022 04:59
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Smith Rock knowers please check my plan and tell me if it makes sense! I'm doing my first trip as a trip leader. Basically i live close by ish and some friends are visiting and they like to climb and I'm sort of the most experienced climber (esp outdoors) but that's not to say I'm mega experienced. Or maybe I'm being humble, idk. I can lead and anchor and clean any sport climb in a technical sense; climbing skill wise I can top rope mid 11s and lead upper 10s indoors; can lead mid 10s outdoors, on sport only. I take safety very seriously. My friends say that indoors they climb at a similar level as me but they have barely climbed outdoors. Anyway I hike at Smith a ton but I've barely climbed there and I want to show my friends a good time, while also being the responsible one. I am used to climbing outdoors among equals, or more commonly betters, but now I'm gonna have to be the guy who cleans the route that other people might not finish. So i don't want to bite off more than I can chew. I also have to assume my friends will climb a full grade below their gym level, cause that's how I was before I got more used to outdoor climbing (and it still drops me half a grade). I also don't want to wait an hour to climb 5 gallon buckets or whatever, with just one day to climb we'd gladly sacrifice getting the Big Iconic Climbs and instead climb some perfectly lovely stuff with less crowds. So, single pitch sport only, some outdoor newbs in the group, looking at the low 10s as an upper limit, I'm reading through the Alan Watts book and thinking we head east, with monument and/or marsupials in mind, longer approach but less crowds, plenty of highly rated 5.8-9 sport climbs and some highly rated 10a too... I'm assuming we're not going to get above 10a on this trip. Is this plan decent? Any other suggestions?
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Mar 28, 2022 06:39
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If you have to reclimb a route to get the gear don't be afraid to get a tight belay and yard past the crux on the belay side rope or the draws. Especially if you are expected to lead and put the rope back up right after.
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Mar 28, 2022 14:10
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alnilam posted:Smith Rock knowers please check my plan and tell me if it makes sense! I'm very, very far from a Smith expert but I was just climbing there this weekend. It was chilly enough in the morning that people were mostly in places with morning sun. There were a ton of people on all the faces around Asterix pass pretty much all day, and I saw folks up on Monument but I wasn't close enough to tell if it was a zoo or not. I didn't go east at all so no idea how busy Marsupials was. For whatever reason, the west side of the Smith Rock group was pretty empty so there were tons of open routes over there. Smith Rock is notorious for feeling harder than gym grades by a full grade, so keep that in mind for yourself and your friends if you haven't climbed there before. I was on some sport 9s there this weekend that would have been 10c/d in my gym through the crux sections. Most of my years climbing I was with a crew that had a similar skill level, with one or two folks on any given trip that was a stronger climber than me, so I didn't have to worry too much about getting in over my head on something and abandoning gear. Recently though I've been the more experienced one on a lot of outings. If you're going to be the rope gun on the trip, shenanigans are 100% okay when needed. Certainly yarding on gear and/or the belay side of the rope if you're topping something to clean it, but there are lots of other tricks you can employ. The most absurd one is literally taking the stick clip up with you, going in direct on the bolt at a crux move, and then stick clipping the next bolt so you can just cheat past the crux. You can stick clip your way up an entire route like that to set a top rope or allow yourself to clean it if needed. Also you can often pendulum swing on rappel (or lower) from an easier neighboring route to pull down draws, or on some cliffs you can traverse over to the other anchors and set up a top rope that way. If you do that, you have to be sure that the rope is not being dragged across any edges when you swing! In the absolute worst case that you get in over your head, none of the above shenanigans can help, you have no cheap bail gear to leave behind, and end up leaving your top two quickdraws to bail safely, it's still only a mistake that costs like $30. Not the end of the world, and extremely unlikely regardless. The MOST important thing is that you and your friends all have a safe, fun time. They may be frustrated if they feel like they're getting shut down by stuff that is "their grade", so if you see that happening don't hesitate to back off to even easier routes so they can get some sends.
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Mar 28, 2022 16:17
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Can confirm Smith felt sandbagged the one time I was there
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Mar 28, 2022 18:51
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Thanks for the tips on shenanigans, and lol at the stick clip idea, I'll keep that one in my back pocket. Still open to Smith area recommendations but I'm sure the crowds vary by location all the time. I did not think about seeking morning sun but that's a good consideration, early morning temps are in the 30s this time of year in that area. So far monument and marsupials still seems promising to me in terms of easy but good climbs, sun, and hopefully low crowds.
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Mar 28, 2022 20:29
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I have stick clipped past the crux a number of times when I was the rope gun and trying hard stuff. Works pretty good.
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Mar 28, 2022 21:18
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In the context of gym bouldering, how do y’all break up time between trying the very hardest stuff vs something else? I feel like I usually do like ~5 easier climbs maybe with pauses before holds etc and then spend the rest of the time just trying hard stuff (which for me are v5s or tougher v4s). So I usually end up only completing like ~1 of these routes per time I go to the gym but trying maybe ~3. Curious if there’s a more structured way to approach this- I’m sort of wondering if I am not using my time that efficiently by mostly failing/working on things longer term.
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Apr 1, 2022 05:38
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tildes posted:In the context of gym bouldering, how do y’all break up time between trying the very hardest stuff vs something else? I feel like I usually do like ~5 easier climbs maybe with pauses before holds etc and then spend the rest of the time just trying hard stuff (which for me are v5s or tougher v4s). So I usually end up only completing like ~1 of these routes per time I go to the gym but trying maybe ~3. Curious if there’s a more structured way to approach this- I’m sort of wondering if I am not using my time that efficiently by mostly failing/working on things longer term. Depends. all session start like this : 15 minutes of general warm-up (including climbing v0 to v2-3 while focusing on mobility so stuff like high feet and heel hooks and rocking over, etc.) Then I'll do incrementally harder problems (2-3 per grade) trying to hit different types of holds to warm my fingers and shoulder more. I'll do different drills while I do those Throughout all of this I will do some light hangboarding (feet on the ground first going up to bodyweight). Then I'll do a couple 7-53 hangboard repeaters (3 to 7 reps) After that I try to repeat a hard problem I've already done. If I'm working on hard or limit problems during that session I'll usually do 45 minutes to 75 minutes of hard climbing. I'll take 3 minutes of rest per attempt. So mathematically that's like 20 +/-5 attempts or so. Which will be between 2 and 6-7 problems.
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Apr 1, 2022 16:26
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Good news: Gonna try and sneak a couple hours of outdoor climbing tomorrow Bad news: it's immediately after an involuntary two weeks off due to covid so I'm not expecting a lot of strength on the rocks. But we'll see!
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Apr 3, 2022 04:21
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Smith trip report and a retrospective on a tricky situation: Good Part First, the Marsupials area was a great call; good job, me. Plenty of very fun, highly-rated easy climbs. Not too crowded, though far from empty. We had to pass on our 1st and 2nd choice at first, and then come back to them later and wait 15 minutes, but it was no big deal. A particularly nice surprise was how incredible the view is from the marsupials. Most of Smith you are climbing down in the Crooked River valley, and only get super snowcap mountain views when you get high enough and/or on the proper side of the rock. Marsupials are just way the hell up a hill east of Smith Rock, so even at base level you are looking at Smith Rock with the snowcapped volcanoes (to the west) behind it. Bachelor, the Sisters, Jefferson, and Hood were all in plain view on the beautifully clear 60F-high day. Fantastic day and perfect weather  This was my first time being a trip leader / rope gunner / de facto route cleaner. The two 5.10 gym lead climbers I took out had never led outdoors and haven't climbed all that much outdoors at all. As I sort of suspected, they had a blast and felt sufficiently challenged on some 5.7s. They both got their first outdoor leads We spent a while at Koala Rock and since the crowds thinned out by the afternoon, we got to climb Round There like 3 times apiece because it was so fun (Alan Watts says "there is no better easy sport climb at Smith" and lists it as one of the essential 5.7s in the whole park).Also we saw and said hi to Alan Watts (Smith Rock legend and author of the guidebook). He was walking around alone, watching people climb and saying hi. We didn't realize it was him til later. He's apparently at Smith all the time, I know like 5 people who have run into him there. I think my friends could have then led some 5.8 or 5.9s, but our time was running short and we all agreed that climbing another highly-rated 5.7 would be a more fun way to finish out the day compared to climbing a mediocre (according to Watts) 5.8 that was nearby. This is where the tricky situation occurred. Thus ends the good part of the trip report. I don't know if anyone will read this but I feel the need to dissect this hairy situation I got into. Hairy Part We hiked over to a climb called Living Blindly (#46, 5.7, 11 bolts) in the south face of the Brogan Spire complex. Here's where I made a mistake. It's a sport multi-pitch climb, and I wrongly figured that we could just do the first pitch as a single pitch. I will not be making that assumption again. Living Blindly goes straight up for 2 bolts, then does a huge diagonal traverse on some rampy terrain. I will agree with Watts that the climbing itself was very fun, though I get a little scared leading very traversey stuff. At least the traversey part was very easy.  (I'm on climb 46 here) What felt like about halfway through the traversey part, I called down to ask my belayer if I was past the pattern-change in the rope. He said I was just now at it. Well, poo poo. I know the lower direct down will take less rope than the climb, but I'm not confident enough to continue, as it looks like I have quite a way to go still. So I make the decision to bail. Because of all this, I know nobody will be climbing this route again, so I figure I need to backtrack and clean my gear, right? I leave a locking bail biner where I am and backtrack, with my belay loop clipped to the belay side of the rope with a quickdraw to keep me on track. I backtrack and clean and when I get to the bottom-most bolt of the traverse part, I realize how much dangerous swing potential there is with this massive toprope going way diagonally over and realize I can't safely unclip from the bottom-most traverse bolt. Also, complicating things / making me more spooked, the belay side of the rope is kinda caught on a knob in the rock. At the start of my bail-out the swing potential had indeed occurred to me, and my plan had been to leave the last quickdraw of the vertical section in as a redirect as I lower, then climb up to retrieve it. But here at the bottom of the traverse, I realize here that even that is not going to be safe. Also we are almost out of rope, so it's not even clear I can finish lowering... it looks close but the margin is not comfortable. So I do not leave the ledge. I do not begin descending the vertical part in my current situation. There is thankfully a set of anchors right by me on this ledge, meant for a separate multi-pitch - the first anchors for #44 "Cave Route." So I go in direct here (it's on a perfectly level ledge anyway, I could stand/sit easily) and decide to pull the entire rope to me, and do a short rap down from here. I guess I could have lowered from here too. I am a bit perplexed because these anchors have no rap rings, just a set of particularly beefy hangers. I thought you never put rope directly through a hanger, but the topo shows that you're supposed to be able to rap off of it  I have since looked it up and they are apparently special "rap hangers" that are considered safe to rappel from, but I didn't know that so I left one more bail biner on one of the anchors and rappelled off of that biner. Not thrilled about rappelling from a single point, but that's usually the situation in a bail-out anyway. So I successfully rap down from my 2nd bail biner, clean my last 2 quickdraws, and pull the rope. At this point it's late and we start heading home, with apologies for depriving my friends of one more climb. Retrospective My first mistake was obviously choosing the first pitch of a multipitch climb that obviously has a significant traverse in it and assuming we can single-pitch. Lesson learned. But having done that, the point where I decided to bail, I could have rapped down directly from there, or even finished to the anchors and rapped down. I now also have found Watts' description of lowering from the top of this multi-pitch (which is written elsewhere, not in the description of Living Blindly) and he says a single 60m rope rappel will barely reach the ground from the top of pitch 1 of Living Blindly (confirming that I could not have lowered if I had finished the pitch), so even that would have felt risky to me without knowing for sure it would reach. Anyway doing this would have abandoned all of my quickdraws on the wall, so it's not ideal. I could also have finished the pitch, top-belayed one of them up to clean, and we could have both rapped down, but I only recently learned to top-belay (I am working my way up to my first multi-pitch this year) and these people were new too, so that felt like too many new situations in one. Given the above, what I now think I should have done was NOT leave a bail biner at my bail point, since it introduced a dangerous potential massive swing to the equation. I should instead have back-climbed the entire traverse and cleaned as I went. It was pretty rampy 5.4 traverse so it would have been doable. Then I could have left a bail biner at the top of the vertical section and lowered from there, cleaning the rest. Or, if I had known that they were special rap hangers, rappel from those and leave no bail gear at all. In the end, I'm a bit upset at myself, I made some mistakes, but I am at least a bit proud of this: I kept my wits about me. I didn't do it perfectly but I recognized several dangerous situations and addressed them before they came to fruition. I used my knowledge of what is important about a climbing system to improvise relatively safe ways out of them, even if I could have done it better.
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Apr 4, 2022 20:21
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I think you did a good job of assessing the situation that you got in and it resulted in a relatively safe retreat. Good learning experience.
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Apr 4, 2022 20:39
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alnilam posted:
It sounds like you handled it reasonably safely all things considered. You should have left two pieces in at the top though, not one. To me that's the most serious mistake in how you backed off of it. If that bolt fails, you deck. The safest (and most fun!) course of action would have been to finish the pitch and go on to complete the multipitch. The swing fall can easily become a ground fall in a situation like that, so you were right to link to the belay strand and also not to pull the last piece preventing the swing. Things I might have done instead, in order: 1) Finish the climb, bring up my second, and go on through the rest of the multipitch. 2) Finish the climb, attempt to lower off, ascend the rope using prussiks if it was too short, go in direct, then rap off the anchor. I would only do this if I didn't have the gear to bring up my second and complete the climb. (This "if the rope was too short" option is #3 next) 3) Finish the climb, pull rope and rappel off, leaving all the draws on the route. Once I was back on the ground, get the gear I was missing to attempt #1, and then re-climb it and proceed with #1. 4) Something like what you did, but leave gear on the top TWO bolts before I backed off. 5) If the traverse was easy enough, then yeah just downclimbed it and stripped gear as I went like you say. Also now you know about rap hangers (or "fat" hangers). They are really common in some areas so it's a good thing to be able to recognize. Ideally though you can finish the pitch, get back to the ground, and then re-climb it as a multi-pitch route so your second can clean it on TR.
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Apr 4, 2022 20:46
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alnilam posted:In the end, I'm a bit upset at myself, I made some mistakes, but I am at least a bit proud of this: I kept my wits about me. I didn't do it perfectly but I recognized several dangerous situations and addressed them before they came to fruition. I used my knowledge of what is important about a climbing system to improvise relatively safe ways out of them, even if I could have done it better. I have little knowledge of multipitch climbing so my opinion is worthless, but reading that story was pretty cool and stressful to read. It both makes me want to multipitch more and less! I think you did pretty well with the knowledge and experience you had. I'm sure you'll take even better decisions next time. KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Apr 4, 2022 |
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Apr 4, 2022 21:08
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Appreciate the comments. I agree that finishing the multipitch would have been best, but like I said I've never done one... I learned to top belay recently so I think I have all the technical skills needed to do it, but doing it for the first time with someone less experienced than me, felt more dangerous to me than bailing. Doing a multipitch is my Big Climbing Goal this year.
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Apr 4, 2022 21:29
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alnilam posted:Appreciate the comments. I agree that finishing the multipitch would have been best, but like I said I've never done one... I learned to top belay recently so I think I have all the technical skills needed to do it, but doing it for the first time with someone less experienced than me, felt more dangerous to me than bailing. Yeah I meant it when I said that I think you handled it pretty safely all things considered. Just leave two pieces at the top (one per bolt) next time if you ever bail and back-clean a route like that. For the same reason that you didn't like rappelling off one piece, you shouldn't like leaving just one piece up top like that. I was out in Smith this weekend as well actually, Friday through Sunday, and got on a surprising number of classics. I think in another week or two it's going to be mobbed. It was busy this weekend, but not too crazy really. I won't have a chance to get back out there until sometime in May, but if you need a multi-pitch buddy I'd be game to run up something with you sometime.
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Apr 4, 2022 21:44
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armorer posted:It sounds like you handled it reasonably safely all things considered. You should have left two pieces in at the top though, not one. To me that's the most serious mistake in how you backed off of it. If that bolt fails, you deck. The safest (and most fun!) course of action would have been to finish the pitch and go on to complete the multipitch. The swing fall can easily become a ground fall in a situation like that, so you were right to link to the belay strand and also not to pull the last piece preventing the swing. You are really asking him to do things he either doesn't know how to do or was not comfortable doing. Also 0% chance the belayer was tied in and was going to feel comfortable changing the plan on the fly. What about the other friends? just see you later while I multipitch with the only rope? Down climbing was the best choice but what he did in 5.4 terrain was generally OK. Should have rapped off 2 bolts though.
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Apr 4, 2022 22:25
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spwrozek posted:You are really asking him to do things he either doesn't know how to do or was not comfortable doing. Also 0% chance the belayer was tied in and was going to feel comfortable changing the plan on the fly. What about the other friends? just see you later while I multipitch with the only rope? You misunderstand me. These are things I would have done in that situation, with my skill set. I would have felt safer with those options, and with the fact that they wouldn't require leaving gear behind. As to what he did, I've already said twice that it was pretty reasonable other than leaving two pieces at the top. The remaining two pitches of that route are short and there's a walk-off, so the group wouldn't have been stranded alone very long.
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Apr 4, 2022 22:29
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Yeah I get what armorer is saying. I know what I wish I had done given the situation and what I knew at the time, and I know what I did was not too bad either. But I know there are better ways out of that situation. I welcome any alternative "what I would have done..." commentary. Also thanks, let me know if you're going to Smith and I might be able to come join  Timing is always questionable due to toddler, though.I'm now thinking hard through the idea of doing a multipitch this year and have a few questions for the experienced multipitchers here, things that I'm having a hard time answering with google. 1. I was recently taught to top-belay with the ATC directly on the anchor, and our ATCs did NOT have a guide mode attachment point. Instead the rope went through the ATC, around a locking biner which was also on the anchor, and a second biner was clipped onto the rope between the first biner and the ATC (so, inside the ATC). My friend could not quite articulate what the second biner was for but said it was important. I wanted to look online to review what I learned before trying again, and I can only find people talking about guide-mode ATCs. I cannot find a single thing online depicting the way my friend taught me, which has me worried. Did I learn something wrong? Is it acceptable to top-belay directly off the anchor with a non-guide-mode ATC such as the ATC-XP? I'm starting to get nervous that I was taught bad info and my future multi-pitch buddy learned things wrong (this person has climbed several multipitches but not a ton, and is not stubborn / would have an open mind if I said that I found out we did it wrong). FWIW we did successfully top-belay several times that way, at the top of a short single pitch, just for education. We even did a test fall! So if it's a no-no, at least it kind of works? But I want to know and get it right, of course. 2. Regarding pitch length in multipitches. I know sometimes people rappel off a multi-pitch with two ropes, but when I look online for more info, most of what I find is that two-rope rappelling simply makes the rappelling a bit easier/faster because you might be able to skip an anchor (provided there isn't a big traverse). This makes sense if the anchors are no more than 30m (half the rope length) apart. But I know it would also be possible to have a multipitch climb with anchors e.g. 50m apart, and as long as no one needs to be lowered, one rope would suffice to ascend - but in this case you would need a second rope or a tagline to rappel back down. How common is it that two ropes are required to descend, rather than just nice? How do you know in advance which climbs require two ropes vs one? Or do people typically just always bring 2 ropes on any multipitch if they're not sure? 2a. In a case where the anchors are more than 30m apart (more than half the length of the rope), what happens if the leader needs to bail on the climb, but they are too high to be lowered back to the level of their belayer? The only escape I can imagine is that the climber would need to haul up the 2nd rope and rappel from the bail point with both ropes. And this would involve bailing from 1 bolt, which is dangerous as armorer pointed out. alnilam fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Apr 4, 2022 |
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Apr 4, 2022 23:02
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armorer posted:You misunderstand me. These are things I would have done in that situation, with my skill set. I would have felt safer with those options, and with the fact that they wouldn't require leaving gear behind. As to what he did, I've already said twice that it was pretty reasonable other than leaving two pieces at the top. Leaving your other friends alone unplanned on their first outdoor climbing outing for two pitches and a walkoff is still pretty uncool imo even if you link the two pitches. To me downleading back to 'the cave' anchors and lowering/ rapping from there off both bolts seems like the best option for your (alnilam's) skillset. Contingent on you being confident to downclimb the terrain which it seems like you were. It sounds like then your friends could have even climbed that first section after you? When bailing mid-pitch on a sport route you also have the option to use prussiks to attach yourself again to the rope nearer to the second-highest piece of gear. That way you can clean the rest of your gear but still have two relevant pieces in the system until you clean the lowest draw. Can also leave the lowest draw while you're lowered depending on the height of the gear / suspectness of the top bolt / your ability to boulder up and down to the draw to retrieve it after you finish getting lowered.
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Apr 4, 2022 23:20
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alnilam posted:1. I was recently taught to top-belay with the ATC directly on the anchor, and our ATCs did NOT have a guide mode attachment point Decided to rig this up to show wtf I'm talking about  The blue locker is the one that my friend couldn't quite explain why it was there. Without the blue locker, it's set up just like it would be on your harness, only the anchor is taking the place of your belay loop. This means the brake hand must go to the side/up to brake.
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Apr 5, 2022 00:17
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alnilam posted:Yeah I get what armorer is saying. I know what I wish I had done given the situation and what I knew at the time, and I know what I did was not too bad either. But I know there are better ways out of that situation. I welcome any alternative "what I would have done..." commentary. Y'all are really overthinking my reply. It was intended to point out some other options, these things are always situational. I've learned a lot over the years by having more experienced people tell me what they would do in given situations. Leaving some folks sitting safely in a beautiful state park for an extra hour while I cleaned up an unplanned mess I made when I took them all out for a climbing trip doesn't seem like a crazy thing to me, but maybe we have different friends. Maybe what I listed as option 5 is what would have been my option 1 if the terrain was just low 5th class and if I felt that I had to bail on the route. To address these questions: 1) It sounds like your friend was trying to set up a redirected belay, but what you just provided a picture of is...not that. In a redirected belay you would have the ATC on your harness and that extra locker would be clipped into the anchor (or something else robust) above waist height such that the climber strand went up out of the ATC as if the climber were above you. It's preferable to use a an ATC guide/Petzl reverso for belaying from above, or a grigri, with the device connected to the anchor rather than to yourself. You can use a standard ATC though if you redirect the climber strand as I describe above. The main downside is that it puts extra force on the redirect piece (which maybe is or isn't your anchor, depending on how it's set up.) For top roping that's probably okay since the climber isn't going to be whipping, but it's obviously situational. If your budget allows it I would get a device with guide mode or use a grigri. The other potentially significant downside is that if you're belaying off yourself with the redirect going up to the anchor, you are a part of the belay system, so if something happens to your partner and you need to rescue them you have to escape the belay before you can do so. Even if you know how to do this (it's not too hard) and have the gear on you, it takes time. 2) Generally modern guide books will indicate if the rappel route requires a 70 meter rope (or 80 potentially, or multiple ropes!). I've never personally found a rappel route that you couldn't take with a 60 which wasn't stated in the guide book I was using. Such a thing may exist, but I've not run into it in my 13 years. If you have a decently long cordelette you can extend your effective rope length pretty easily for the purposes of rappelling. 2a) This is going to be highly situational, but you have options as both the climber and as the belayer. It's honestly a pretty complicated situation to resolve if you're the belayer and the climber is incapacitated. I recommend getting a copy of "Climbing Self Rescue" by Andy Tyson and Molly Loomis, and trying to internalize everything in there. Actually doing so will require multiple readings and hours of practice, it's not a book that you just read through once and retain all of, but it has a lot of good information about getting yourself out of risky situations. Scenario 24 in that book is the closest to this, which involves you being the belayer in this case with a climber who is at least partially incapacitated, and with nothing nearby to transfer the load to such that you cannot escape the belay to use other techniques. The book suggests in that situation that you should lower as much as you can, tie off the belay so you can be hands-free, then ascend the route (essentially lowering the climber more) until the climber is on the ground. Then go in direct at a bolt/gear, tie the upper section of rope into a fixed loop, and rappel on the (now slack, because your partner is down) strand of rope to reach your partner on the ground. This leaves a bunch of gear behind, and also your rope, but that's potentially needed in emergency situations. In this situation if your partner can untie once on the ground, then you can keep the rope by pulling it to the lower bolt you're on and rigging a rappel from there (or an even lower bolt) such that you can reach the ground. If your partner cannot untie and you need the rope (potentially you have to do more rappels with your injured partner to get down, then you would need to rap the single strand, untie them, ascend back to where you fixed the rope, free it, then set up a rappel as above. It gets really messy really fast and there are definitely situations on multi-pitch routes where the answer might be "You're kinda hosed, use your inreach to call for rescue asap." armorer fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 00:47
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quote is not edit
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Apr 5, 2022 00:50
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Yeah it seems non standard since I can't find it described online anywhere. I will say it did work! Even in test falls. And like in principle, I don't get how it's different than other direct belays or indirect belay from your harness - the rope is still being tightly bent around a secure biner through the orifice of an ATC. But there's probably some reason it's not ideal, like it being easier to lose control somehow, maybe difficult brake hand positioning or something.
alnilam fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 05:06
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alnilam posted:Yeah it seems non standard since I can't find it described online anywhere. I will say it did work! Even in test falls. And like in principle, I don't get how it's different than other direct belays or indirect belay from your harness - the rope is still being tightly bent around a secure biner through the orifice of an ATC. But there's probably some reason it's not ideal, like it being easier to lose control somehow, maybe difficult brake hand positioning or something. It's just a lovely braking position that isn't instinctive to go to in case of a fall. The extra carabiner is possibly just there to add friction to make it a little easier to catch the rope, of course that also makes it less smooth and slower to feed the rope through as the climber ascends. There really isn't a reason to have a not-guide ATC, it kind of baffles me that they are even for sale anymore.
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Apr 5, 2022 05:14
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armorer posted:You misunderstand me. These are things I would have done in that situation, with my skill set. I would have felt safer with those options, and with the fact that they wouldn't require leaving gear behind. As to what he did, I've already said twice that it was pretty reasonable other than leaving two pieces at the top. Sorry for the misunderstanding. alnilam posted:Decided to rig this up to show wtf I'm talking about Don't do this one for sure. Armorer gave you a lot of good info on some options. You CAN belay off your harness and I do sometimes if the anchor is way back from a ledge and the terrain is easy with second very unlikely to fall. It is unnatural though as the brake position is up as you mention. You also realistically cannot lower or escape the belay. If your second falls into space you are in a real lovely situation. Sounds like a bit more mentorship would be good if you can get it. All of these systems are not really too complicated but messing up has big consequences.
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Apr 5, 2022 05:17
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spwrozek posted:You CAN belay off your harness and I do sometimes if the anchor is way back from a ledge and the terrain is easy with second very unlikely to fall. It is unnatural though as the brake position is up as you mention. You also realistically cannot lower or escape the belay. If your second falls into space you are in a real lovely situation. You can still escape the belay in this situation using the standard process - 1) Put a prussik on the brake strand and tie off below that so you can go hands free. (Or tie it off with a mule and overhand) 2) Pull on the strand connecting you to the distant anchor (probably clove hitched with the rope?) until you have a taut strand back to the anchor and tie a loop there on a bight. (Assuming you clove hitched the anchor, and that your strand to that clove is taught with the climber's weight, you would do this with the strand coming off the other end of the clove, which is the brake strand. Basically make a tight line from the other side of the clove hitch and tie a loop there) 3) Connect a carabiner to that loop (this is where you will transfer the load to) 4) Tie a prussik on the climber strand with a cordellette, and then tie that onto your carabiner-on-bight using a munter mule overhand 5) Lower the climber's weight onto the MMO. 6) Attach another belay device to the bight loop and set up the brake strand in it, or lacking a spare device tie a munter to a locking carabiner on that loop. ( keep your third hand and knot below this as backup) 7) Remove your belay device and take up the slack with the new one / munter 8) Undo the cordellette overhand and mule, then use that munter to slowly transfer the climbers weight to the new device/munter 9) Tie that off with a mule and overhand. The belay is now on the anchor and you're free to move. Since you have to transfer the load twice, your climber will be a bit lower than they were. At a minimum, gear wise, this process requires a prussik loop, cordellette, and a locker or two. It's really the same thing you would do if you were right next to the anchor, sequence wise, but you essentially fabricate a closer tie in point on your anchor tether. From here you could build a 3:1 or 5:1 and try to raise them out of no man's land. As a general rule it's better to belay from the anchor in the first place so these none of this is necessary in an emergency situation, but as you point out there may be some situational reasons why it's preferable to be belaying off yourself. armorer fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 05:57
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If you want to belay off the anchor from the top and don't have a guide ATC just tying a munter hitch is far from the worst way to go, too.
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Apr 5, 2022 06:12
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Ropes are aid lol
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Apr 5, 2022 06:53
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alnilam posted:2. Regarding pitch length in multipitches. I know sometimes people rappel off a multi-pitch with two ropes, but when I look online for more info, most of what I find is that two-rope rappelling simply makes the rappelling a bit easier/faster because you might be able to skip an anchor (provided there isn't a big traverse). This makes sense if the anchors are no more than 30m (half the rope length) apart. But I know it would also be possible to have a multipitch climb with anchors e.g. 50m apart, and as long as no one needs to be lowered, one rope would suffice to ascend - but in this case you would need a second rope or a tagline to rappel back down. How common is it that two ropes are required to descend, rather than just nice? How do you know in advance which climbs require two ropes vs one? Or do people typically just always bring 2 ropes on any multipitch if they're not sure? Abseil pitch lengths are always well stated in guidebooks because far too many people keep abbing off the end of ropes. In Europe, you'll often find that there's an abseil 'piste' on popular summits. This is so that people aren't trying to abseil down routes on top of climbers, and because good abseil terrain isn't the same as good climbing terrain. Here is an example where the abseils follow an old aid route well away from the climbing.  On longer pistes, the anchors will be set up to 50m apart because that's a common minimum rope length. There are often intermediate anchors and random bits of other crap you can use, but they aren't usually recorded so it's risky to try to count on finding them if that's your only way down. They also might be in bad locations where ropes get stuck, or where the line is inconvenient. 10 minutes per abseil is good doing if you're both working continuously. When you're fried from a hard day, unsure if you're at the right anchor, getting the ropes stuck and it's dark, it can take hours. If the piste is 5 abseils and you turn that into 10, that's so much more time loving about and chance for things to go wrong.
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Apr 5, 2022 21:41
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KingColliwog posted:Depends. Thank you, this was helpful! I think I will try and integrate a bit more of this conscious structure in. Adding the hard problem repeat makes a ton of sense too- I do worry only doing stuff once and never again makes me not internalize what I learned.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:10
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Endjinneer posted:Abseil pitch lengths are always well stated in guidebooks because far too many people keep abbing off the end of ropes. In Europe, you'll often find that there's an abseil 'piste' on popular summits. This is so that people aren't trying to abseil down routes on top of climbers, and because good abseil terrain isn't the same as good climbing terrain. Here is an example where the abseils follow an old aid route well away from the climbing. This (dedicated rappel routes) is common in a lot of places in the US as well. The guide book would likely not have the distances explicitly written like that (which is great! I wish they were), but the description text would at least say something like "Two 60m ropes required for the rappel".
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Apr 5, 2022 22:15
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