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Mister Macys posted:
Race to the bottom. It was bound to happen, but it's still drat disappointing. The thing that always suffers with this race is the moderately priced higher quality products. The market undergoes extreme stratification and you are left with the low end that's differentiated by varying level of features with de-emphasis on quality and the expensive high end that only enthusiasts will (and can afford to) buy. Everyone who cares about quality about the core function of the product over all else, gets the shaft. The focus from OLED to 4k is also an example of this. OLED had the ability to REALLY improve the quality of the picture you see. 4k is a resolution that no one at home needs unless they are projecting on to a 100" screen and want to diminish the screen door effect. The vast majority of people watching their 40" LCDs at 15 feet in their living room would benefit so much more from OLED, they are already not seeing everything their current resolution has to offer. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Dec 22, 2012 |
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Dec 22, 2012 20:39
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Panasonic May Pull Plug On Plasma TV R&D Come March 2013
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toplitzin posted:So if 3d is no big deal, is there any reason to go to the st50 over the u50? Yes. The ST has a better panel with lower black levels and has an anti-glare filter.
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Dec 24, 2012 04:59
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For what it's worth about plasma "brightness", it's all relative. My ST50 is brighter than my Samsung LCD from 2007 and even that was plenty bright for my well lit living room. A new LED backlight TV can get blindingly bright, but what the hell is the use when you end up turning the brightness down past 50% after you calibrate it?
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Dec 31, 2012 19:20
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http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Samsung_Boasts_An_Unprecedented_New_TV_Shape_For_CES_Unveiling/10828 Guess what Samsung. Content is in 16:9, we don't need an "Unprecedented new TV shape." How about you plunge R&D into making side lit LED TVs that don't suffer from flashlighting, clouding, and other uniformity problems instead of gimmicks? I fear 2013 is going to be the year of the gimmick TV and we are going to see very little real advancement in image quality.
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Jan 2, 2013 19:08
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Farts Domino posted:To clarify, a 60hz unit will step to 48hz, presumably to reduce any jitter from not being a perfect multiple of 24? Just so you know, I find the 48hz mode on my ST50 unusable. The flicker is too much.
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Jan 8, 2013 07:45
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Yeah, I wouldn't look at it like "paying" for those features. Those features don't really affect the material cost of the set (their exclusion wouldn't make production of the set any cheaper). It's just one of those things you get with a higher end set.
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Feb 12, 2013 22:49
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BrettRobb posted:However I recently got a panasonic st50 and havent noticed any retention after calibrating it. IR is weird on the ST50. I never really had much of it at all for the longest time. However, I noticed in the past week that the Comedy Central logo and adult swim logo were visible under some circumstances. The [adult swim] logo is opaque so that's somewhat understandable, but the Comedy Central one is translucent (though with a fairly high percentage of opacity.) So, watching an hour of the The Daily Show and Colbert, over time, was enough to cause it to show up. I suspect too that if I was watching the show with commercials it would have been less of an issue since the logo would have been washed away every 10 minutes by 3 minutes of commericals. Adult swim was kind of my own fault since in the past few weeks I've been busy in the evening and basically left it on from 9pm to 2am as background noise. But the CC logo did concern me a bit. A week later and they have faded quite a bit and will probably be gone soon. I did just pickup the Disney WoW disc yesterday and have plans to use the "pixel flipper" function to accelerate the erasure. In the future, I may just flip flop between Mode 1 and Mode 2 (overscan and not overscan) in the aspect settings to move the logos around if I'm going to be watching for any prolonged period. What's weird is I have about 1800 hours on the TV now and most reports said that IR basically becomes a non-issue after 400 hours. I'm mildly annoyed, but not enough to overcome the picture quality of this TV which is still jaw dropping for the price.
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Feb 15, 2013 18:51
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The Gunslinger posted:I have an ST30 but the few times I've noticed any image retention (our 4 year old loves to watch cartoons and never turn the TV off) I just use the built in screen wipe tool for a few hours and it seems go away. Not sure if the ST50 has something similar, I would assume it does somewhere. There's a screen wipe, but it times out after 15 minutes (and then annoyingly dumps you back into the bright menu.) I really just knew why sometimes IR never happens but then all at once it shows up.
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Feb 16, 2013 05:53
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I doubt it's burned in, just really persistent image retention. It will fade over time. It may take a few months, but it will go away (assuming it's not reinforced by more viewing of the logo.) I had a similar issue with the adult swim logo. It took about 3 1/2 weeks for it to finally fade, but it did. One thing I've started doing to try to prevent issues like this in the future with prolonged viewing is switch between size 1 and size 2 every so often so the channel bugs are moved around. These displays also seem to go through cycles of susceptibility with IR as well as the panel ages.
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Apr 4, 2013 16:01
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Then I would get something like the Disney Wow disc with the pixel washer and run that for a few hours every day.
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Apr 4, 2013 16:16
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Weinertron posted:Does anybody still do monitors? I remember the Pioneer Elite Plasmas that didn't have speakers and only had 1 HDMI input as the only option, assuming your receiver would do all the switching, processing and heavy lifting. I feel like I could get a better value if I wasn't paying for all the stuff I don't use like tuners, TV speakers, etc. Basically I wish I could buy a 60" Panasonic ST50 or ST60 for $1300 or less. All of that "stuff" is a low single digit percentage of a total device's cost as most of the pieces are commodity parts or features already integrated into the SoC of the main logic board. When you buy a TV, you are mostly paying for the panel, R&D, advertising, and distribution. It's cheaper for them to throw a tuner into all of their products than it is to change the manufacturing process to exclude it from a certain percentage of models.
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Apr 24, 2013 21:48
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Don Tacorleone posted:
The issue is, the only LED equivalent in picture quality of the Panasonic xTx0 plasma line are the Sharp Elite TVs that cost $5k-$7k. Yes, the picture quality of plasma was that good and LED backlit LCDs still can't replicate it easily for low cost. That's the main lament, the Panasonic Plasmas were the cheat sheet to top of the line picture quality without emptying your bank account. Sure, you can get 90% of the way there with an equivalently priced LED backlit TV, but now we are being forced to leave that other 10% on the table. I mentioned this before in this very thread, but 4k is the worst thing to happen to TVs. At this point, the resolution race in TVs is much like the megapixel race on digital cameras. I would much rather the manufacturers spend more R&D on improving panel uniformity, increasing color accuracy, and deepening black levels without artifacts than pumping out panels with more pixels that no one can use anyways. Leave 4k to the projectionist folks and just give us a very high quality 1080p display. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Oct 31, 2013 |
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Oct 31, 2013 20:23
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Don Tacorleone posted:It's all academic to me since I'm not going to upgrade TVs for years (hopefully, barring someone stealing mine), but what's so bad about the 4K race? Once everyone's there, they'll start to focus on image quality like they do now, no? From a business standpoint, it's much easier to sell a higher resolution than some vague "color clarity, black level" claims that you can't even check at the store anyway. What's bad about the 4k race over everything else is very very few people have the right seating distance/screen size ratio to even be able to enjoy 1080p, let alone 4k. You hit exactly WHY it's being pushed though, it's more easily marketed. You are going to have people rushing out to buy 4k 37" TVs to be viewed at 12ft in their living room. It won't make things better once 4k TVs are out because they'll probably then start talking about 8k or some other buzzword tech. Also, content just isn't going to be there. It's great that TVs in the stores look so nice, they are carefully engineered to create that impression. At the end of the day though, 4k content just flat out doesn't exist in most cases. Even content that claims to be 4k likely isn't. Most movie workflows are still 2k at this point. Take The Hobbit. Probably the biggest special effects extravaganza of 2012 and you never be able to watch it in native 4k. All SFX were rendered in 2k. To ever get a true 4k master of The Hobbit, all the effects work would have to be re-rendered and re-edited. Basically, anything post 2000ish era is pointless in 4k because they likely moved to a digital workflow and many of the assets simply don't exist at a higher resolution. Even the 35mm masters were probably struck from a 2k intermediate. The ONLY advantage 4k has in the foreseeable future is to reduce screen door effect on very large screens. Otherwise, it's a bit pointless. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Nov 1, 2013 |
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Nov 1, 2013 00:39
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Don Tacorleone posted:image color quality is just too subjective to point to No, it's not. It's very very objective to say "display covers 95% of the sRGB color gamut". Content is created within very specific parameters so it's rather trivial to quantify how well a particular display is able to accurately reproduce that range. Calibrators do it on a daily basis when they are setting up displays. There's also standards for measuring black level and contrast and gamma. You could get a full info dump on the side of the box detailing how well a display does any of these things. The real reason why it's not done is QC is pretty drat loose and most manufacturers don't take the time to even attempt to calibrate their displays before they leave the factory. You turn on two of the same TVs using the same menu settings and you are likely to get very different results because the variance from set to set is rather high. At the end of the day quality does not matter to the vast majority of the user-base and 4k isn't going to be any guarantee of quality (especially when it becomes commoditized very soon here.) Compromises are going to have to be made in the manufacturing process to get the yields they need at that pixel density and size.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:31
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Bad Munki posted:Because it's the hot new budding technology and they're not going to bother doing anything less. The resolution is a small portion of the price tag, they'd basically be trying to sell a four thousand dollar 720p tv next to a four thousand dollar 1080p tv. I think he means why are there no 4k OLED TVs and the answer is because it would be ungodly expensive and they probably don't have panel yields that high yet. How a display handles contrast, black level, color and motion trump resolution almost always and OLED should be superior in all those categories.
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Nov 8, 2013 16:40
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The next biggest consideration is panel uniformity. "Edge lit" LED models use an array of leds around, well, the edge attached to light spreaders to implement the backlight. This can lead to light/dark splotches across the screen. The brighness variance likely won't be too noticeable when there's a bright picture on the screen, but darker scenes may expose it. TVs that use an array of leds across the whole back can offer a more uniform picture, but are thicker and more expensive.
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Nov 20, 2013 01:10
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Do they even make CFL backlit LCDs anymore? Edit: Found the answer to my own question. Only 10% of TVs sold this year were backlit by CFLs, it's expected to be completely phased out in 2014. http://www.eeherald.com/section/news/onws2013111001a.html bull3964 fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Nov 20, 2013 |
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Nov 20, 2013 16:52
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My opinion on TV size is aim for the biggest your space will allow. You'll feel it's monstrous for the first 24 hours and then end up wishing you could fit something bigger. I went from a 40" to a 55" (which is physically, about the largest TV that could possibly fit in the corner I have it in) and it was overwhelming at first, but after the first week it seems "right" for the space.
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Nov 20, 2013 18:14
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Here's the general blanket opinion on "Smart TV" features. Don't let them factor into your decision process at all, for or against. Focus on the TV itself, whether or not it has smart features is incidental. Don't avoid TVs that do have them even if you don't want them and don't avoid TVs that don't have them if you do want those features. They don't add to the price of the TV and can be ignored if you don't want to use them. If they don't have the features, functionality can be replicated with external devices for under $100 if you want those features.
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Nov 21, 2013 21:47
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Most of them now have built in Wifi or ethernet port.
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Nov 25, 2013 16:48
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Seriously, after a few weeks you get used to it. I saw rainbows all over the place when I first got mine and I don't see them at all anymore.
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Dec 3, 2013 03:44
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ChineseBuffet posted:Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but a 120 Hz panel can display 24 fps film content without 3:2 pulldown and associated juddering, while a 60 Hz panel cannot. It can, but you'll have to make sure that you check documentation of TVs ahead of time to make sure that they: a) Accept 24fps input b) Can do the correct 5:5 pulldown WITHOUT using motion interpolation so you can get the right film effect. Some TVs only allow 120hz mode with all the motion smoothing turned on and don't actually handle 24fps material properly.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:52
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Don Lapre posted:120hz tv's dont have a 120hz mode. The lcd always runs at 120hz. It still doesn't mean they handle 24fps input correctly. Believe it or not, some cheap ones STILL do a 3:2 pulldown before converting to the native refresh rate. Not all of them actually do a correct 5:5 pulldown of 24fps source. But yes, I shouldn't have said 120hz "mode." Perhaps I should have said 5:5 mode without motion interp. Some TVs require some form of motion smoothing in order to enable 5:5 pulldown on 24fps input. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 00:21
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Under worse case, the input lag of the ST60 is still under 100ms I believe. Lip sync usually isn't perceptible until you get closer to the 200ms range. Also, many receivers allow you to adjust overall audio delay to help sort that stuff out too. Don't forget, audio processing in the receiver is also going to introduce a measurable amount of audio lag as well, so the delta between it and the picture may even be less than the pure input lag of the display.
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Dec 16, 2013 18:50
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Sony and Panasonic ended their OLED partnership, effectively ending OLED development for either company. They're both going to pursue LCD based 4K instead. Thus, another nail is hammered into the quality coffin and I hope my ST50 lasts me a good drat long time.
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Dec 28, 2013 17:09
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NihilismNow posted:or does "insurmountable problems" mean "We think consumers don't give a gently caress about quality and will be wowed by the higher 4k number" ? Ding ding. They probably don't feel it's worth more investment when 4k is an easier marketing sell than OLED. This is especially true when they've been diluting what LED means by referring to LED backlit TVs as just LED TVs.
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Dec 28, 2013 17:49
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I may have cursed myself asking for my ST50 to last me a good long time. I noticed this weekend that on white/gray screens I can see two largish splotches of off color, one in the upper left corner and one along the right hand side. I can't really say what color they are, either yellow or green (I'm colorblind so it's hard for me to distinguish light tints like that), but the uniformity of the panel is affected. Under most viewing, I can't see it. Cartoons, with their large blocks of color, tend to show it off the most. I know the previous generation suffered from the Green Blob problem, but I've seen next to nothing about the ST/GT/VT 50 suffering from the same thing. I'm almost wondering if the recent firmware update messed with the voltages behind the scenes that might highlight panel flaws. If you turn brightness to 100%, the blobs nearly disappear. I'm out of the one year warranty, but fortunately I bought it on my American Express card. So, I have until April to do something about it since they extend warranty by a year. So, I'll keep an eye on it for now and see if it gets better or worse. I'll decide by April if I want to warranty it through Amex. They're likely to just up and refund the purchase price rather than try to repair it, so I may be searching for a new TV come spring.
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Dec 30, 2013 23:30
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Doctor Butts posted:
I'm not really sure this is a "thing" anymore with modern electronics. Pretty much everything seems engineered to give maybe a slightly better than a 2 year life before developing some sort of flaw.
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Jan 6, 2014 17:58
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Doctor rear end in a top hat posted:Does every passive 3D TV do the stretching? When I turn on 3D there's 5 or 6 different options. Cable providers do 3d by doing side by side or top bottom. It's reduced resolution images that are then stretched to fit the whole screen and overlayed. Side by side is (I believe) what the consoles use (Edit: actually I think it varies by game, some are frame packed some are SBS). The difference is, in the game mode, you either need glasses with same polarization for each lens (for passive 3d) or shutter glasses that switch to both lenses flashing at the same time (active 3d.) Blu-ray 3d is full resolution by basically sending two frames at once and having the TV overlay them. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20063310-1/how-3d-content-works-blu-ray-vs-broadcast/ Obviously the game consoles can't do that since it would be too taxing to render two full resolution screens at once (apparently some do at 720p). Passive 3d is half resolution no matter what though as the lines are interleaved (each row having opposite polarization.) bull3964 fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 22:06
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Doctor rear end in a top hat posted:I understand how 3D works. I'm saying that game mode (on my TV at least) is an extra feature of the TV because the TV will stretch each of the halves to full screen. It has nothing to do with the game or console. You could do it with Sonic 2 on a Genesis if you wanted. You could even do it with broadcast TV if you wanted to see half the screen stretched to fill the whole thing for whatever reason. Oh, i see what you are saying. There's nothing about it that inherently limits it to passive 3d tvs and nothing really saying that all passive 3d TVs will have it. Many active 3d TVs can do that as well. To actually USE simulvue on a passive 3d tv though, you will either need special glasses or hack together a pair by switching lenses out.
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Jan 6, 2014 22:16
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I found a nice long thread on AVS detailing my yellow blob issue with the ST50. It was originally for the VT50, but ST50s suffer from it as well. The blobs are all in the same place and is likely due to either hot spotting or voltage issues. I'm out of warranty with panasonic, but I have warranty through Amex till April. I know that they no longer have replacement ST50 panels in stock, so if I can get Panasonic to say that repair isn't possible, I'll probably be able to have Amex refund the full purchase price of the TV. From there, I'm not sure where I'm going to go. I'm feeling kind of burned by this whole Panasonic plasma issue.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:51
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What's interesting is Vizio has dropped 3d from their entire 2014 lineup except for the reference series. I know not everyone is a fan of 3d, but I'm not sure if I could see myself buying a TV without it as a main set. Right now I'm trying to decide what to do if Amex refunds me for my 55ST50 due to my yellow blobs. 1) Do nothing in the near term and wait to see if anything coming out compares to the image quality. 2) Turn around and buy a 55VT60 before they are all gone and hope they finally resolved all the issues on the last iteration on their plasmas. 3) Buy a Samsung F8500 which seems to be the only thing out now that can compare to the Panasonics. Only problem there is I can't fit the 60 inch model due to the base design and the next size down is 51 inches so I would have to give up size. 4) Admit defeat in black levels and panel uniformity and buy a current LED backlit LCD.
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Jan 8, 2014 07:53
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teagone posted:The reference series don't have 3D either. I could have swore I read that the reference series at least would retain it.
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Jan 8, 2014 08:16
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It just took a brief trip to Best Buy to confirm that there's no way in hell I'll replace my ST50 with anything other than a VT60. They had an ST60 hanging right beside Samsung's flagship F8000 LED backlit LCD and there was simply no contest in picture quality. I realize that the Samung was in torch mode and could likely be dialed back in quite a bit, but there's no fixing the viewing angle shifts. At any rate, it certainly wasn't worth the $2k price. In isolation it looked pretty decent, but once I was able to do an A/B comparison it was all over. Assuming Amex comes through with the warranty claim before VT60 stock is all sold out, there's no doubt I'll be getting one. I guess the upgrade over the ST50 will be nice, but I really would have liked for it not to develop any flaws to begin with. On a broader note, I feel we are entering a dark age of TVs. Nothing out of CES has made me particularly excited. Vizio seems the most disruptive, but we'll have to wait on reviews to see if they managed to put out landmark picture quality and no 3d really is a non-starter for quite a few people (no matter how much some people hate it.) There's just this massive gap between TVs like the Panasonic xT60 line and the Samsung's F8500 vs everything else on the market. Plasma has it's faults (boy does it ever), but no one seems committed to driving LCD quality to plasma levels. Panasonic's plasma line is discontinued and Samsung says that any plasma announcements are coming later in the year (which likely will consist of a cheaper version of the F8500 with the same panel but fewer features.) Samsung is probably just trying to do a quiet exit of the plasma market like they did with DLP. The only other manufacturer doing plasma is LG, but they aren't doing any R&D and are basically recycling model year after year. I fear that 2015 will be the end of plasma production altogether.
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Jan 8, 2014 20:31
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For blu-ray, you should be able to tell your player to send 24p directly to the TV. From there though, it's down to the TV. It may automatically detect 24fps content and behave ideally (5:5 pulldown). It may behave poorly and do a 6:4 pulldown (basically convert the 24fps content to 60hz by doing a 3:2 telecine and then frame double it), in which case you will have judder just like you would on a 60hz set. This might be what people are referring to if they say it's not a "real" 120hz tv. Then, on top of that, there may be motion smoothing schemes that could be applied over either one of those pull down methods. Instead of repeating each frame 5 times, it may create intermediate frames and that would give you the soap opera effect. Nothing is standardized here, so it's really hard to say what one tv does vs another unless they explicitly spell it out for you. Some TVs may keep framerate settings and motion smoothing settings apart in menus, some may mash them together To FURTHER complicate matters, it is technically possible to completely reverse 3:2 pulldown to get the original pure 24fps material back and then do 5:5 on it so that it is completely judder free. However, that is going in with the assumption that the source encoded it into 3:2 just right and that the display is capable of recognizing the fields properly to de-interlace them. Then you get weird stuff like my ST50 which is only a 60hz display, but it accepts 24fps material natively. It then uses the motion smoothing algorithms to make the missing frames rather than having them interlaced. On one hand, it reduces judder quite a bit since you aren't dealing with interlacing. On the other hand, it adds a HINT of SOE. Films on netflix instant should be 24fps, but that's only the stream. The other consideration is whether or not the device you are using to display the netflix stream is capable of passing 24fps to the display or if they just automatically do a 3:2 telecine on any material they output. I'm not sure what iTunes outputs.
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Jan 8, 2014 21:25
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According to Vizio's feature matrix, the M401i-A3 doesn't have any sort of motion smoothing. A quick look through the owner's manual confirms the lack of any sort of settings for motion smoothing. So, I do not think you would get any sort of SOE from that TV. As far as how it handles content, that's anyone's guess. There's no indication anywhere in the specifications of what types of signals the TV accepts (if it will even accept 1080p24) nor what it will do with such material if it does accept them. I would say check one out in person just to confirm the lack of SOE and see if you like the way motion appears on it. There's nothing to tweak in the settings, so what you see is what you're going to get.
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Jan 8, 2014 21:41
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There actually isn't 120hz content. It'll all be 1080p24, 1080i60, or 1080p30 (assuming all 1080p sources). 120hz is simply the refresh rate of the display, it doesn't affect anything outside of the display.
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Jan 9, 2014 00:11
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Koirhor posted:So my ST50 no longer turns on, all I get is the power light flashing red 3 times, I assume this means it's broken pretty bad, any idea based on the 3 flash pattern what specific component has failed. I tried googling various phrases to no effect other than hey your hosed. I believe 3 blinks is a bad A board.
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Jan 10, 2014 07:18
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After a call to Panasonic support to get a list of "local" repair places only to find out that none of them will actually do a home call to my house due to it being "out of area", I think I'm done with Panasonic which means the VT60 is off the table now for the replacement of my ST50. That's pretty piss poor support seeing as how I only live 10 minutes from downtown Pittsburgh. The repair places are out in the boonies and won't do a local call even close. Why Panasonic would not have a service center that could actually service the Pittsburgh metro area, I will never know. I just know that lugging my 55" 80lb TV on a 2 hour round trip to confirm what I already know is out of the question (not that I even have the means to do so anyways.) At this point, I'm just having Geek Squad come out. I only need a repair estimate so I can submit my extended warranty claim, so I'm not actually worried about the "quality" of their work. All I need is for someone to recognize a panel flaw and write up a repair that reflects that. At any rate, their estimate doesn't appear to be costing me anything so I have nothing to lose by trying.
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Jan 13, 2014 17:59
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wa27 posted:
That's a separate issue than being 4:3 safe though. 4:3 safe needs to die. It doesn't matter if there are still 4:3 tvs out there, nearly all of them are watching things letterboxed now. Most SD cable boxes don't have an option for zoom, so it's not like the 4:3 TV owners are going to be watching letterbox content center zoom. Some OTA adapters have a zoom option, but most are actually going to use the AFD flag to size content appropriately. There are exceedingly few situations where a 4:3 TV owner is going to see a center crop of 16:9 content. It can happen, but it's not statistically worth thinking about. So, it's not simply enough to look at the number of 4:3 TVs still out there. You have to examine how they are getting their content and how much influence the user has on that content. Since there are very few edge cases in which a 4:3 TV owner is going to be able to watch 16:9 content center cropped, there's no reason to maintain a 4:3 safe zone anymore. Don't forget, you can have the reverse going on to. If you compose a 4:3 ad (not just 4:3 safe, but actual 4:3) and run it on an SD station with 16:9 content, chances are all HDTV owners are going to get a crop of your ad since they would have had the TV zoomed for primary programming. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jan 13, 2014 |
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Jan 13, 2014 20:41
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