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Yeah, I thought the "gently caress you for liking me for being a redhead because they gangbang women like me to death after mutilating their genitals," thing was wayyyy out if left field in light of Locke being obsessed with her since he was a child because he was far too loving young to even know about that kind of practice, much less get off on it. That being said, I'm willing to give Locke a pass on his obsession with Sabetha, assuming of course that Patience was right about his mysterious past and that out of tons of esoteric magical knowledge and other skills that Pel Acanthus had he only retained his loving fetish for redheads..
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Jan 10, 2014 05:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think because the thief maker exists we'd need at some point to broach the subject of child rape. Lynch's world is gritty and dark as hell, and we've got characters who ruthlessly exploit children, but sexual exploitation is never even mentioned. At some point that probably needs to be explained, to explain why it isn't happening or indicate how the characters dealt with it when it did, and now that we're in a book focusing on the adventures of female child thieves that's especially pressing.
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Jan 11, 2014 08:27
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Ravenfood posted:Pretty much the first thing the Thiefmaker says to the orphans in the very first chapter (so, some of the earliest dialogue in tLoLL) is You can stay here and be a thief or you can leave. If you do that, you'll be sucking cocks or chained to a galley oar inside of three days (paraphrased). It is addressed, and early, which is why Sabetha's whole thing comes way out of left field because that's exactly the kind of thing that Locke should know. In addition, there's the scene in LoLL when Locke goes to visit the redhaired prostitute, and nothing of the sort is ever mentioned. You'd think that'd come up in any kind of "redheaded prostitute" or at least have people be mildly worried that Locke has a well-known redhead fetish. Then, as said, Locke is occasionally an idiot. There's no need to manufacture a crisis when Locke is perfectly capable of saying something dumb to piss off Sabetha anyhow. It's specifically stated that the pox rape cure only applies to children. A fetish for redheaded women wouldn't mean anything, they're fetishised in real life without any kind of induced scarcity.
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Jan 11, 2014 11:46
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coyo7e posted:That's definitely a valid point and it does add some darker tones to what's otherwise a fairly glossy version of medieval slumland however, there were not really any other mentions of this kind of thing going on, and having Sabetha immediately attack Locke with it because of a single line from when he was 5 years old, seems to come from way out of left field and feels like poor writing or a forced crisis. Uh, no. There is a lot of really hosed up stuff described in the second book, including noble children torturing animals for fun, a guy forced to fight a hive of giant bees or an entire arena where the poor are degraded for the satisfaction and joy of the rich. The last one was already as close to rape as possible without delving into actual sexual stuff.
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Jan 11, 2014 14:18
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How does one write romance and female characters well in this genre of ours?
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Jan 11, 2014 16:12
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I don't think this is a valid criticism (maybe I'm misunderstanding you?). You can't and shouldn't expect authors to make fantasy settings devoid of all evil or suffering, and it's not valid to criticize authors for simply including the existing of rape (even systematized rape) in their world. Which it isn't, at all, and it's so horribly introduced in the middle of a book that introduced other really loving lovely boring things that seem like they're going to take the focus of other stories. It's like, in the Dresden Files series, Harry essentially stopped doing private detective stuff basically completely after book 5, maybe 6, but we'd had our fill of that and wanted more of this other cool stuff Jim Butcher had been hinting at. We've had one and a half books of super-proactive protagonists Locke Lamora and Jean Tannen committing crimes and heists and this latest book felt like Lynch is already tired of that interesting, unique part of his story. I'm doomsaying and being cynical, and I hope I'm proved wrong, but this book seemed like it was setting us up to ignore the Crooked Warden ethos in lieu of "evil wizards and mysterious pasts" and worse, Lamora's relationship with his girlfriend is in trouble because she thinks he wants to be like a rapist. That's what I mean by lovely loving worldbuilding that has no purpose.
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Jan 11, 2014 16:19
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Jedit posted:It's specifically stated that the pox rape cure only applies to children. A fetish for redheaded women wouldn't mean anything, they're fetishised in real life without any kind of induced scarcity.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:46
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Whalley posted:GRRM has a bunch of terrible rape going on in his world, and it fits because it's a really lovely place and it doesn't feel like it was added to be titillating or something introduced to add a twist to a romantic plot. He introduced this rape thing to put a fork in their relationship, and that's a really hosed up thing that he thought that this would be an important part of his world. Because, like what Ravenfood said, we've been introduced to a redhead prostitute AND to the idea that children get sexually exploited in this world, and that's terrible, but the whole Sabetha thing is ultra hosed up as there is no need for that poo poo and it had never been brought up until Scott Lynch thought it would be an interesting love story twist. This is a third book in a cycle that's supposed to have seven of them. We don't know if this was necessary yet. It may be expanded upon in later books or it may never be brought up again. It may have been used just for worldbuilding as another facet of the former Therin Empire being a crappy place. After all, the trope of the powerful abusing the weak was always present in Lynch's prose. At this point, we have no way to know this.
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Jan 11, 2014 23:15
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Even if it turns out to be an important plot point in a later book, that doesn't change the fact that it felt really awkwardly shoehorned into this one. That's what sets it apart from the rest of the grim stuff in the background; at least none of the other grim stuff was solely used for what could pass as an awkward misunderstanding in a romantic comedy.
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Jan 12, 2014 02:25
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Well, I'm about a third of the way through the second book and while overall I'm enjoying it, Locke and Jean acting like bratty teenagers in their interactions with the Archon is really starting to grate. I understand that they're meant to be pissed off that he's given them a slow acting poison and pressed them into his service and that they know he's not going to outright murder them on the spot as he needs their skills, so they're able to push their luck but my god every single thing that's said to them they respond to by basically sneering and saying "huh, you're a crazy man! gently caress YOU!".
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Jan 14, 2014 14:50
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I'm enjoying book three so far, I like the book 1 style flashbacks to their childhood. I'm right where they get to Carthane which I may be spelling wrong because it's audiobook.
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Jan 14, 2014 23:22
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Nevvy Z posted:I'm enjoying book three so far, I like the book 1 style flashbacks to their childhood. I'm right where they get to Carthane which I may be spelling wrong because it's audiobook. Karthain.
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Jan 15, 2014 01:15
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Nevvy Z posted:I'm enjoying book three so far, I like the book 1 style flashbacks to their childhood. I'm right where they get to Carthane which I may be spelling wrong because it's audiobook. Part of me wishes these bits were books unto themselves, in large part because I love the interactions between the entire gang, rather than just Locke and Jean.
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Jan 15, 2014 08:23
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There's still Chains' death and Locke's rise to garrista to talk about, so I imagine the next book will be full of flashbacks as well.
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Jan 15, 2014 18:41
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syphon posted:There's still Chains' death and Locke's rise to garrista to talk about, so I imagine the next book will be full of flashbacks as well. Yeah honestly, Republic of Thieves almost seemed to dance around the particulars of Chains' death as much as the first two books danced around the particulars of Sabetha, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a big thing in the flashback stuff next time.
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Jan 15, 2014 19:17
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I'd like to see the Thorn's other heists as well. One of my favorite parts of these books is all the convincing bullshit and those are probably fun stuff. Plus more Sansas and maybe some more Bug. Currently I'm at the boat part and I can't wait to see what they do.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:19
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Almost exactly two thirds of the way into TLOLL and poo poo gets super real 
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Jan 16, 2014 23:09
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WastedJoker posted:Almost exactly two thirds of the way into TLOLL and poo poo gets super real Enjoy it, definitely some of my favorite scenes in the last 10 years.
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Jan 17, 2014 04:21
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Holy poo poo the ending of RoT. MAGIC CYBORG!
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Jan 17, 2014 22:59
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I find that I don't really care about the future of Locke and Jean much, I just want more stories with the Sanza brothers.
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Jan 17, 2014 23:14
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Benson Cunningham posted:Enjoy it, definitely some of my favorite scenes in the last 10 years. Just finished it. Excellent book.
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Jan 18, 2014 20:41
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Not impressed with Republic of Thieves. Way too much stilted pseudo-romance and minor pre-election shenanigans, far too few people eaten by sharks or drowned in horse-piss. This is undeniably juvenile as gently caress, but my fascination with the first book is largely due to its creative, grim-as-gently caress violence, and the feeling of real danger that came with it. None of the storylines in RoT have any real weight or menace to them, their only real impetus being the seemingly excellent work ethic of Locke and Jean, who somehow insist on doing their best despite having little at stake and fairly few shits to give about the outcome of the election. The flashback sequence is even worse, as it ends up being a story about going somewhere, ending up in trouble, getting out of said trouble unscathed and unchanged, the entire thing self-contained and effecting zero change outside the story itself. Fine, it gives some insight into the Sabetha/Locke relationship and adds to the mythos of the Gentlemen Bastards being properly trained in a variety of scam-related arts, but there would have been a thousand more interesting ways of making those things happen. The fact that the ending proves Lynch still has it in him to write some grand, suspenseful and disturbing stuff makes it even more grating that he refrained from doing so throuhout the book, instead writing what is essentially a fairly standard - although well-written - YA novel with some swearing thrown in. At least up until the point where Patience wipes out all the opposing magi only to have her face eaten by her RoboMage son's army of birds.. That said, I'll still be reading the next book. Although RoT was terrible, it did set the stage for some suitably grim things to come.
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Jan 19, 2014 21:08
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I thought TROT was perfect for what it needed to be -- a third novel of seven that needed to do a ton of arc-building because Red Seas was too busy stroking the oar up its rear end. I can sort of see where you're coming from with "YA novel plus swearing", but I think that's just Scott Lynch wanting to have his hosed-up cake and still have some fun while eating it. Also, as you say, I wholly expect the last few books of this series to be super grim. Perhaps this is just the last hurrah of innocence and fun outside of flashbacks. Speaking of TROT setting stuff up for the later novels, I just wrote a very  thing on Reddit about foreshadowing that is included in its entirety below:quote:I just finished greedily devouring this entire series, and am submitting this topic as part of a huge Internet nerd-gasm. Please excuse me.
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Feb 16, 2014 11:16
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I just finished burning through this series in a little over a week. I really, really enjoyed all of the books, nearly equally really. My favorite thing, as discussed is the language - it's so loving real and colorful. Second favorite is just how the tertiary characters are both absolute flesh and blood and how utterly dispensable they are. Little explosions of characterization that flare up and disappear. You don't find out what their deal is, but you know they have one. A common complaint in the thread is about the lack of ocean's 11 heists in the later books. I just don't understand that at all. First of all, the one big heist in the first book didn't really pan out, I mean they got a lot of money but that became less and less important as the book went on, and their really successful grifts that they did to fill the vault were just mentioned in passing. Secondly, if that is all that makes the books for you, I can appreciate that - but - it would get so tired. Imagine that the Dresden Files was just Harry taking on cases and getting beat up solving them in every book. With Dresden Files, we got two so-so case books and then the events at the very end of the third book (I don't think this is a spoiler at all but people are sensitive) ended up culminating in most awesome way possible in the 12th book. That is kinda what I am hoping for with the mages leaving Karthain and the Falconer T1000.
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Feb 17, 2014 09:00
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I haven't seen it mentioned so far, so here goes: the thing about sex with young girls curing the pox, minus the redhead things (as far as I know) is a legit thing that was believed for some time in Victorian and pre-Victorian England (and France). Sex with a quite young, virgin girl was considered to be a a valid treatment for syphilis. I'm not saying "This is a FANTASY BOOK, so of course it has to be HISTORICALLY ACCURATE," just pointing out that it wasn't an out-of-left-field, out-of-whole-cloth kind of thing that Scott Lynch came up with because he is hosed In The Head.
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Feb 17, 2014 12:25
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There are parts of the world where that sort of notion is still around today. I dunno-- I noticed that bit because I was looking for it, and it's definitely a harsh note. I don't know that it bothers me personally, and I'm not sure it's out of step with other harsh notes. It didn't feel gratuitous to me, but this is one of those subjects where I have to fall on a slightly wishy-washy 'but I understand if it felt that way to other people'.
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Feb 17, 2014 13:04
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bigperm posted:Secondly, if that is all that makes the books for you, I can appreciate that - but - it would get so tired. It doesn't have to be heists, but I feel like in the TROT, Locke wasn't really using his skills at all. The political stuff was just boring, and not really well done at all. I think it was the time frame of the book and the complete lack of control that Locke had in the book that dragged it down. Locke was never invested in the scheme, so neither was I. If Lynch been given Locke a couple years, and broke TROT in to two or three books, I think it would have played out better. It would have given us time to see him learn the lay of the land, set up some sort of network/power structue (and also develop some other characters along the way), and then start to manipulate it to a conclusion. As it was, it was more - Locke comes up with some idea, he's introduced to the guy that can help, then the plan works/doesn't work, on to the next idea, repeat until the election. To take your dresden analogy, it would be like cramming Changes, Ghost Story, Winter Knight in to one book. Yeah, you'll get the plot, but it wouldn't have been nearly as good.
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Feb 17, 2014 17:22
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gninjagnome posted:Locke wasn't really using his skills at all. IMO this was a symptom of it basically being two books, The Republic of Thieves and Locke and Jean Hang Out in Karthain, crammed into one book. The flashback structure worked really well in books 1 and 2, I think, but here it took up too much of the narrative.
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Feb 18, 2014 00:18
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darth cookie posted:Jesus Christ. I was just going to bring this guy up and say the exact opposite. The man is a deviant. Every scene is drawn out, nasty and seriously makes me think he's never actually had a joyful experience between the sheets.
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Feb 18, 2014 00:40
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Above Our Own posted:Yes but to be fair he kind of approaches everything that way in his books. Also true. But I think he misses the fine distinction between "dark & gritty" and "nasty." Yet I still love Sand Glokta. 
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Feb 18, 2014 00:44
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neongrey posted:There are parts of the world where that sort of notion is still around today. I dunno-- I noticed that bit because I was looking for it, and it's definitely a harsh note. I don't know that it bothers me personally, and I'm not sure it's out of step with other harsh notes. It didn't feel gratuitous to me, but this is one of those subjects where I have to fall on a slightly wishy-washy 'but I understand if it felt that way to other people'. I think the main issue a lot of people had is that it's a detail that was put in to force some drama. That's a little awkward way to start some drama, but whatever. And then the drama was resolved within a few pages so it just feels kinda pointless.
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Feb 18, 2014 01:14
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Srice posted:I think the main issue a lot of people had is that it's a detail that was put in to force some drama. That's a little awkward way to start some drama, but whatever. And then the drama was resolved within a few pages so it just feels kinda pointless.
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Feb 18, 2014 03:01
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Sabetha is always trying to come up with reasons to not want to be with Lock because she feels like she had no choice in the matter of her feelings for him, like it wasn't her choice to like him due to their close quartered familiarity. When she thinks about how much she likes Locke and how she likes Locke, she feels like she isn't in control of her own life. That is why she blew up. I feel like this was explained more than once in the book and I have no idea why you guys have such a problem with it.
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Feb 18, 2014 03:08
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bigperm posted:Sabetha is always trying to come up with reasons to not want to be with Lock because she feels like she had no choice in the matter of her feelings for him, like it wasn't her choice to like him due to their close quartered familiarity. When she thinks about how much she likes Locke and how she likes Locke, she feels like she isn't in control of her own life. That is why she blew up. I feel like this was explained more than once in the book and I have no idea why you guys have such a problem with it. This is how I feel about it too. I don't understand. I mean I know it gives you hipster book cred to say that an author is bad at romance, especially in a fantasy series, but it wasn't actually handled that poorly. Was the redhead rape thing sort of sudden? Yeah, but she was literally looking for reasons not to be with him, she says that like a dozen times in book 3. Both in the flashbacks and current-timeline parts.
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Feb 18, 2014 06:39
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But that's the thing, she had plenty of valid reasons already. I don't have a problem with any of her other reasons since they felt a lot more natural instead of being shoehorned in! It's just the redhead stuff that stands out due to existing only for the sake of artificial drama that's quickly resolved.
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Feb 18, 2014 07:13
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Srice posted:But that's the thing, she had plenty of valid reasons already. I don't have a problem with any of her other reasons since they felt a lot more natural instead of being shoehorned in! It's just the redhead stuff that stands out due to existing only for the sake of artificial drama that's quickly resolved. This was her last chance to rebuke Locke, he was finally wearing her down and she was afraid of it. The red-head thing was the last, biggest barrier that she could make up before she gave in. This happened right before they hooked up for the first time, after years of living together with Locke fawning over her and her pretending that she didn't like him. As for 'artificial drama that's quickly resolved'... you know that this is a book right? That is how... all book are, almost all the time. The whole thing is made up. These books especially. How many times do we have Jean say "We've got a problem" and then Locke says... "I have an idea" smashcut to a resolution of said problem. I guess you could argue that it felt out of place, for you - but I don't feel that way about it at all. EDIT: Lies of Locke Lamora: The Shark Fighting is Awesome but the Sex Scenes are so Juvenile bigperm fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 08:57
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darth cookie posted:Also true. But I think he misses the fine distinction between "dark & gritty" and "nasty." Is there even a distinction to be found? Edit: if so, please point me to the author who has found it. I would love to read their work. I love Glotka as well, but I'm a cripple, and he and I have a great deal in common.
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Feb 18, 2014 14:34
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I wish all the doe-eyed will she or won't she stuff was just replaced with a couple goony sex scenes. Then we could all get back to heisting.
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Feb 19, 2014 18:28
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I wish there was no "even children want to rape gingers" connotations and that Locke wasn't a goony gently caress about Sabetha and knew how to go and get laid like literally everybody ever because their romance is written badly and attempting to make it a "one true love" just comes across as really fuckin' pathetic but hey
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Feb 19, 2014 19:40
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Whalley posted:I wish there was no "even children want to rape gingers" connotations and that Locke wasn't a goony gently caress about Sabetha and knew how to go and get laid like literally everybody ever because their romance is written badly and attempting to make it a "one true love" just comes across as really fuckin' pathetic but hey So much so that it's actually a (the) major plot point of book 3! And isn't actually that badly written at all. It's almost like Locke is the reincarnated soul of a man utterly broken by the love of a woman who he lost, thrust into a life of pain and turmoil after causing the deaths of untold hundreds or thousands with forbidden magic trying to get her back and/or extend his life so he has issues with normal human love and is oddly attached. Wouldn't it be weird if that's what Locke turned out to be?
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Feb 19, 2014 19:48
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