Ask me about Medieval History & Combat.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me about Medieval History & Combat.

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

Pistol_Pete posted:

I struggle to read 19th century handwriting, let alone the uncoordinated scratchings of people writing with quills, in their own private idea of shorthand and with a cheerful disregard for spelling and punctuation.

I'm constantly amazed at how the British built an empire when none of the higher ups could write a legible letter. I could rant about penmanship in the Edwardian Royal Navy for probably hours.

EDIT: That's not even getting into Fraktur, which was too Germanic for Hitler.

Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Mar 29, 2017

# ? Mar 29, 2017 06:38

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 22:06

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

itsamazingtomehowpeoplewentforcenturieswithoutpunctuationmarksofanykindexceptthosedotsthatsometimesgotshovedinbetweenromansquarecapitalsseriouslyidontgethowthatshitwaslegiblebutthatsprobablymy20thcenturymindsfault

It occurs to me that you could have saved a lot of space by omitting most of the vowels.

# ? Mar 29, 2017 06:41

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Pistol_Pete posted:

I struggle to read 19th century handwriting, let alone the uncoordinated scratchings of people writing with quills, in their own private idea of shorthand and with a cheerful disregard for spelling and punctuation.

abbreviations are standard and had been for over a thousand years by the 17th century (about four or five of these things survive in the texts i read), and i think early shorthand shows up around that time too. the putney debates are written in it

my dudes' spelling blows though

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Mar 29, 2017

# ? Mar 29, 2017 06:46

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

"Now I'm all about Germanic poo poo, it's basically my entire schtik, but this Fraktur business is just taking things way too far"
-Adolf "Literally" Hitler

# ? Mar 29, 2017 11:09

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

there was actually a nazi/nazi slapfight about whether or not to adopt latin writing (german for non-fraktur)

# ? Mar 29, 2017 11:25

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

lol just lol if you all think fraktur is bad.

Children, let me tell you about motherfucking S�tterlin. . . .

(also deep sixed by Hitler, something that I am honestly grateful to him for. That was a diabolically broken clock that happened to be right that once).

# ? Mar 29, 2017 12:53

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

HEY GAIL posted:

there was actually a nazi/nazi slapfight about whether or not to adopt latin writing (german for non-fraktur)

Yeah, it's actually a really fascinating example of where fascist modernism ran face first into fascist love of traditional culture.

# ? Mar 29, 2017 12:54

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Cyrano4747 posted:

lol just lol if you all think fraktur is bad.

Children, let me tell you about motherfucking S�tterlin. . . .

(also deep sixed by Hitler, something that I am honestly grateful to him for. That was a diabolically broken clock that happened to be right that once).

suetterlin is the descendant of the handwriting my subjects write in, which is a sweet and precious jewel that can do no wrong

# ? Mar 29, 2017 13:43

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Pistol_Pete posted:

I struggle to read 19th century handwriting, let alone the uncoordinated scratchings of people writing with quills, in their own private idea of shorthand and with a cheerful disregard for spelling and punctuation.

My thesis research materials:

# ? Mar 29, 2017 16:08

RabidWeasel: Aug 4, 2007; Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!

Cyrano4747 posted:

lol just lol if you all think fraktur is bad.

Children, let me tell you about motherfucking S�tterlin. . . .

(also deep sixed by Hitler, something that I am honestly grateful to him for. That was a diabolically broken clock that happened to be right that once).

I just looked this up and how the sweet everloving gently caress is this supposed to be read and why would you do it?

# ? Mar 29, 2017 18:36

Internet Wizard: Aug 9, 2009; BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES

Allow me to tell you about Arabic calligraphy

# ? Mar 29, 2017 20:41

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Meanwhile in the late 11th c... (Eat poo poo idiots who study illegible writing)

Also notice the "et"s that're more or less in the shape of a modern ampersand.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Mar 29, 2017 23:13

Splode: Jun 18, 2013; put some clothes on you little freak

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Meanwhile in the late 11th c... (Eat poo poo idiots who study illegible writing)

Also notice the "et"s that're more or less in the shape of a modern ampersand.
-snip-

Is that a result of writing being done exclusively by trained professional writers?

# ? Mar 30, 2017 02:18

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

RabidWeasel posted:

I just looked this up and how the sweet everloving gently caress is this supposed to be read and why would you do it?

It's basically super fast writing cursive.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 03:17

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

It's a different writing system that you read significantly differently from plain ol' letter printing, but if you're educated about it and used to it, you'll be able to deal with it. That's half the reason they teach cursive in schools, not necessarily so kids will pick it up as a faster way to write, but so they'll just be able to read other people's handwriting.

At least in theory. I still can only barely read cursive.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 03:25

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Cyrano4747 posted:

It's basically super fast writing cursive.

nah, it's literaly different shapes from latin script, the direct descendant of the script used in the 17th century and that is just the handwriting kind of blackletter.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 03:26

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Splode posted:

Is that a result of writing being done exclusively by trained professional writers?

That certainly helps compared to post-medieval writing, but even in the middle ages there was some goofy crap going on eg https://twitter.com/DJMHarland/status/833267673748369412

Shits as bad as Russian cursive

Edit: I'll point out it's not *exclusive*. We have my namesake's signature for example, which is in the standard style of the time

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Mar 30, 2017

# ? Mar 30, 2017 04:50

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009; Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

I've been really interested in the collapse of the Carolingians lately, but I've been having trouble finding very good sources on the topic. I'm particularly interested in the last few rulers in Germany: Charles the Fat, Arnaulf, Louis the Child, Berengar, etc. All the weird, crazy pre-Heinrich the Fowler chaos. Does anyone, by chance, have any books they can recommend? I know it's a tough topic to cover, given that there aren't many primary sources, but hey, I figured someone might know here.

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Shits as bad as Russian cursive

It's funny, my Russian has atrophied, but I can write in Russian cursive easier than I can write in English, and CERTAINLY better than Russian block letters. My hands are Dr. Strange-level unsteady though.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 09:03

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Majorian posted:

It's funny, my Russian has atrophied, but I can write in Russian cursive easier than I can write in English, and CERTAINLY better than Russian block letters. My hands are Dr. Strange-level unsteady though.

Ok but can other people read it?

# ? Mar 30, 2017 12:12

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009; Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Ok but can other people read it?

Surprisingly, yes, for people who can read Russian. That's definitely not the case with my 3rd-grade level penmanship in English. Very weird.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:54

deadking: Apr 13, 2006; Hello? Charlemagne?!

Majorian posted:

I've been really interested in the collapse of the Carolingians lately, but I've been having trouble finding very good sources on the topic. I'm particularly interested in the last few rulers in Germany: Charles the Fat, Arnaulf, Louis the Child, Berengar, etc. All the weird, crazy pre-Heinrich the Fowler chaos. Does anyone, by chance, have any books they can recommend? I know it's a tough topic to cover, given that there aren't many primary sources, but hey, I figured someone might know here.

Check out Simon MacLean's Kingship and Politics in the Late Ninth Century, which is a very good full-length study of Charles the Fat's reign. The relevant chapters in Timothy Reuter's Germany in the Early Middle Ages and Matthew Innes et al.'s The Carolingian World should also have more brief but still good summaries of this period. MacLean has also done an English translation of Regino of Prum, one of the main narrative sources for this period. There are also English translations of the Annals of Fulda and the Annals of St. Bertin, which cover late into the ninth century.

HEY GAIL posted:

i like my chill handwriting bros, they're cool
and the reason is that the alternative is this sort of thing:

classical roman cursive

merovingian script

Don't get me wrong, I love paleographers! Also, I think Roman cursive is weirdly legible when you get the hang of it. The Merovingian scripts are hellish though.

deadking fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Mar 30, 2017

# ? Mar 30, 2017 16:23

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009; Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

deadking posted:

Check out Simon MacLean's Kingship and Politics in the Late Ninth Century, which is a very good full-length study of Charles the Fat's reign. The relevant chapters in Timothy Reuter's Germany in the Early Middle Ages and Matthew Innes et al.'s The Carolingian World should also have more brief but still good summaries of this period. MacLean has also done an English translation of Regino of Prum, one of the main narrative sources for this period. There are also English translations of the Annals of Fulda and the Annals of St. Bertin, which cover late into the ninth century.

Wow, that's terrific! Definitely more than I was expecting to get. Thanks!

I've been particularly trying to get a better handle on Berengar of Friuli. What a weird figure. Most historians seem to think he was terrible at everything he did, but I'm not so sure...dude had to have some skill to survive as a major power player for as long as he did. (before, you know, being captured and executed) I also love that his wars with Arnaulf and the Guideschi was the background for the Corpse Synod. :zombie:

# ? Mar 30, 2017 17:14

Glass Hand: Apr 24, 2006; Just one more finger, Trent.

Majorian posted:

I've been particularly trying to get a better handle on Berengar of Friuli. What a weird figure. Most historians seem to think he was terrible at everything he did, but I'm not so sure...dude had to have some skill to survive as a major power player for as long as he did. (before, you know, being captured and executed) I also love that his wars with Arnaulf and the Guideschi was the background for the Corpse Synod.

Berengar has my respect just out of sheer staying power. After all the poo poo he went through to get to the top, getting his army slaughtered by the Magyars and still hanging on for another quarter century is some pretty impressive work. I suspect his reputation is a casualty of Ottonian-era writers like Liutprand, whose basic point of view was that post-Carolingian Italy was an unrelenting parade of the incompetent, unfortunate, and accursed until Otto rolled up on the place.

# ? Apr 2, 2017 03:18

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

OK, I am playing Great Whale Road and Expeditions: Vikings. They're both set... mostly in Denmark when Christianity was not the popular choice yet and raiding the English wasn't a popular past time.

How likely was woman to become a warrior or a clan leader (thegn?), huscarl or some other professional shitkicker? Because GWL starts with you choosing your char out of a brother and sister, the other becoming your party member (the woman is the better soldier). Meanwhile, EV gives you a childhood friend party member who is handy with a spear. You fight women warriors quite often I think (the models don't stand out that much) and one of your/other thegns deffo has a female huscarl.

I legit have no clue.

# ? Apr 15, 2017 17:52

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

JcDent posted:

OK, I am playing Great Whale Road and Expeditions: Vikings. They're both set... mostly in Denmark when Christianity was not the popular choice yet and raiding the English wasn't a popular past time.

How likely was woman to become a warrior or a clan leader (thegn?), huscarl or some other professional shitkicker? Because GWL starts with you choosing your char out of a brother and sister, the other becoming your party member (the woman is the better soldier). Meanwhile, EV gives you a childhood friend party member who is handy with a spear. You fight women warriors quite often I think (the models don't stand out that much) and one of your/other thegns deffo has a female huscarl.

I legit have no clue.

E:V's out?

# ? Apr 15, 2017 22:33

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Nope. Just checked myself.

Was the conquistador one good?

# ? Apr 16, 2017 04:35

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

Cyrano4747 posted:

Nope. Just checked myself.

Was the conquistador one good?

I quite enjoyed it. Very interesting from a setting perspective, written well enough, and nice tactical combat that isn't afraid to be a game and does interesting things with it.

# ? Apr 16, 2017 05:18

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

I'm a game reviewer, it has certain perks. I now know that there's an ootion to play in English, but with norse names, so you have Vjolholl or smth everywhere.

Now pls address my question.

# ? Apr 16, 2017 08:02

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

JcDent posted:

I'm a game reviewer, it has certain perks. I now know that there's an ootion to play in English, but with norse names, so you have Vjolholl or smth everywhere.

Now pls address my question.

So the time period you're talking about (500-800) is very murky historically, and I'm working from vaguely remembered commentary from someone else. while female warriors would have existed within that culture and time period, the number of them probably numbered in the dozens, not the hundreds.

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Apr 16, 2017

# ? Apr 16, 2017 23:04

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

So the time period you're talking about (500-800) is very murky historically, and I'm working from vaguely remembered commentary from someone else. while female warriors would have existed within that culture and time period, the number of them probably numbered in the dozens, not the hundreds.

Well, half of my hird is now female. I gave one of them the cheap, cheap "Sexist" trait which somehow translates into 10% more damage against the opposite sex!

E:V is set in 750s or something.

# ? Apr 19, 2017 10:00

Mr Enderby: Mar 28, 2015

JcDent posted:

How likely was woman to become a warrior or a clan leader (thegn?), huscarl or some other professional shitkicker? Because GWL starts with you choosing your char out of a brother and sister, the other becoming your party member (the woman is the better soldier). Meanwhile, EV gives you a childhood friend party member who is handy with a spear. You fight women warriors quite often I think (the models don't stand out that much) and one of your/other thegns deffo has a female huscarl.

It's unclear. References to women bearing arms are common in mythological sagas and lays, but rare in 'historical' sagas (which aren't considered historically accurate but take place in an identifiable historical time). All sources, mythological and historical, were written in the middle ages at a time when women fighting was fairly taboo, so there may have been some filtering.

There also appears to be a lot of Scandinavian mitochondrial dna scattered around the world, suggesting that women were voyaging and colonising alongside men, whether or no they fought.

# ? Apr 19, 2017 10:26

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

Mr Enderby posted:

There also appears to be a lot of Scandinavian mitochondrial dna scattered around the world, suggesting that women were voyaging and colonising alongside men, whether or no they fought.

Blonde, fair-skinned, blue-eyed female slaves would have been a curiosity around the world.

# ? Apr 20, 2017 00:44

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

# ? Apr 29, 2017 12:16

Greggster: Aug 14, 2010

Hogge Wild posted:

Sex ed sure has come a long way.

# ? Apr 29, 2017 12:38

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Greggster posted:

Sex ed sure has come a long way.

Music ed too

# ? Apr 29, 2017 13:11

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Anyone have a good recommendation for books on how medieval warfare was conducted? I know bits and pieces but I'd like to get an overview

# ? May 1, 2017 01:57

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Hogge Wild posted:

one eyed, one beard, flying textual penis creature

# ? May 1, 2017 02:10

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

HEY GAIL posted:

one eyed, one beard, flying textual penis creature

your not supposed to sign you're post's

# ? May 1, 2017 02:12

Greggster: Aug 14, 2010

JaucheCharly posted:

Music ed too

I don't know man, this is how music ed was (kinda) like it for me.

# ? May 1, 2017 02:37

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 22:06

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

JcDent posted:

Well, half of my hird is now female. I gave one of them the cheap, cheap "Sexist" trait which somehow translates into 10% more damage against the opposite sex!

E:V is set in 750s or something.

So this was nagging at me and I did some more reading and came across this: https://books.google.com/books?id=X...epage&q&f=false which generally seems to line up with what I half-remembered.

this is also interesting and semi-related https://academic.oup.com/ehr/article/doi/10.1093/ehr/cex066/3738045/The-Earliest-Viking-Activity-in-England

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 03:13 on May 1, 2017

# ? May 1, 2017 03:09

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