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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

JaucheCharly posted:

Speaking of italian, I'm looking for no-bullshit renaissance clothing. Casual stuff that can be worn for fencing or outdoors, preferably making me NOT look like a clown. Something that an italian noble would wear for sports.

I'm thinking about going to the Conquest Cup in Istanbul in the next couple of years, and the dudes have a rule where you have to dress up in historical garments. Since giant codpieces will most likely cause trouble, we'll play it safe.
can you sew

and you need at least a medium codpiece, depending on the time

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Power Khan
Aug 20, 2011

by Fritz the Horse
I'm not sure if I have enough time to learn/do it myself.

One of the Medici (Lorenzo? Need to look that up again) collected alot of ottoman archery gear and shot, so that will be just fine.

unlimited shrimp
Aug 30, 2008

JaucheCharly posted:

I'm looking for no-bullshit renaissance clothing ... preferably making me NOT look like a clown.
You can have one or the other.

swamp waste
Nov 4, 2009

There is some very sensual touching going on in the cutscene there. i don't actually think it means anything sexual but it's cool how it contrasts with modern ideas of what bad ass stuff should be like. It even seems authentic to some kind of chivalric masculine touching from a tyme longe gone

JaucheCharly posted:

Speaking of italian, I'm looking for no-bullshit renaissance clothing. Casual stuff that can be worn for fencing or outdoors, preferably making me NOT look like a clown. Something that an italian noble would wear for sports.

I have either good news or bad news for you



Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Pillbug

JaucheCharly posted:

Speaking of italian, I'm looking for no-bullshit renaissance clothing. Casual stuff that can be worn for fencing or outdoors, preferably making me NOT look like a clown. Something that an italian noble would wear for sports.

I'm thinking about going to the Conquest Cup in Istanbul in the next couple of years, and the dudes have a rule where you have to dress up in historical garments. Since giant codpieces will most likely cause trouble, we'll play it safe.

stop skipping leg days and get these:



looks like you can also go au naturelle

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012
Was it unheard of for knights to take on more than one page, squire, what-have-you at a time?

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Flesnolk posted:

Was it unheard of for knights to take on more than one page, squire, what-have-you at a time?

No, but that would be commensurate with their own personal largesse. I've only ever heard of nobility on the scale of counts, dukes, or powerful barons having multiple pages.

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



This is probably a super basic question but: from a legal perspective, what is the difference between a prince, duke, count, baron, margrave, etc? What about from a practical perspective? When a new domain and lordship needed to be carved out, how did they decide which title to give its new lord?

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

A duke rules a duchy, a count rules a county, a baron rules a barony, and a margrave rules a march. Prince can mean multiple things, but in-keeping with the rest of those, a prince rules a principality. Normally the size of the domain goes like duchy > county > barony, and then a march is sort of above county, but it's supposed to be like the border territory of the realm that the margrave looks after.

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?
It's probably best to think about the Carolingians, where margraves are appointed to control marks, counts cities and smaller areas, and dukes to lead armies and rule large areas. These titles were not originally intended to be entirely heritable, and their land was intended to be purely in exchange for service and tied to their office, so imagine it like a system of bureaucracy that transformed itself in to a nobility because that's sort of what it is.

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012
So I was doing a bit of reading up on medieval cuisine, and the wikipedia article's section on caloric intake caught my attention.

quote:

The overall caloric intake is subject to some debate. One typical estimate is that an adult peasant male needed 2,900 calories (12,000 kJ) per day, and an adult female needed 2,150 calories (9,000 kJ).[20] Both lower and higher estimates have been proposed. Those engaged in particularly heavy physical labor, as well as sailors and soldiers, may have consumed 3,500 calories (15,000 kJ) or more per day. Intakes of aristocrats may have reached 4,000 to 5,000 calories (17,000 to 21,000 kJ) per day.[21] Monks consumed 6,000 calories (25,000 kJ) per day on "normal" days, and 4,500 calories (19,000 kJ) per day when fasting. As a consequence of these excesses, obesity was common among upper classes.[22]

Why did monks eat so much more than everyone else, including nobility?

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Flesnolk posted:

So I was doing a bit of reading up on medieval cuisine, and the wikipedia article's section on caloric intake caught my attention.


Why did monks eat so much more than everyone else, including nobility?

Because they can but also Monks ended up getting a poo poo ton of food as tithes from nobles and local villages.

10 Beers
May 21, 2005

Shit! I didn't bring a knife.

Robindaybird posted:

Because they can but also Monks ended up getting a poo poo ton of food as tithes from nobles and local villages.

Beer as well.

Pharmaskittle
Dec 17, 2007

arf arf put the money in the fuckin bag

Lmao 4500 calories a day when fasting

Pharmaskittle
Dec 17, 2007

arf arf put the money in the fuckin bag

I hope God appreciates me only using ONE stick of butter in this alfredo sauce

ContinuityNewTimes
Dec 30, 2010

Я выдуман напрочь

HEY GAIL posted:

can you sew

and you need at least a medium codpiece, depending on the time

Don't worry, he'll be fine with a small

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



Disinterested posted:

It's probably best to think about the Carolingians, where margraves are appointed to control marks, counts cities and smaller areas, and dukes to lead armies and rule large areas. These titles were not originally intended to be entirely heritable, and their land was intended to be purely in exchange for service and tied to their office, so imagine it like a system of bureaucracy that transformed itself in to a nobility because that's sort of what it is.

I really appreciate this answer, I didn't realize they started out as nonhereditary.

Pontius Pilate
Jul 25, 2006

Crucify, Whale, Crucify

Pharmaskittle posted:

I hope God appreciates me only using ONE stick of butter in this alfredo sauce

Reminds me of the scene in The Caine Mutiny when they're providing bombardment for an amphibious landing and their minds turn to the men on the ground while getting their ice cream so they put a bit less sprinkles on it.

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Elyv posted:

I really appreciate this answer, I didn't realize they started out as nonhereditary.

Feudalism is a contested and loaded term, but to the extent you can explain it simply in France and Germany, it's about the development of a system of land distribution based on office holding to administrate the Carolingian Empire in to something more proprietary as the imperial systems fold inwardly.

It should also be noted sons got the offices a lot of the time, but that it formally isn't hereditary.

Disinterested fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jun 18, 2017

pig slut lisa
Mar 5, 2012

irl is good


Greetings Medieval History thread!

I'd like to invite you to visit BFC to participate in Ye Olde Bad With Money Tournamente. Please share your tales of Flemish traders gambling away their fortunes, Italian city states signing disastrous trade deals, and Germans uhhhhh spending way too much money on these newfangled book things?

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016

R.I.P.idura leucophrys
"The Fourth Crusade"

And if you use a comma, it works pretty well for the Venetians (booo.) Bad, with money.

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Pillbug
How did the Medieval Italian city-states govern their countryside?

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


"Nice crop you got here.
Would be terrible if you came down with a case of cross bolt poisoning."

FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

Hogge Wild posted:

How did the Medieval Italian city-states govern their countryside?

Not very nicely.

SeaWolf
Mar 7, 2008
I've been looking for documentaries to watch and keep me occupied on as much of the medieval world I can get my hands on.
But I can't find a damned thing on the Holy Roman Empire. There's plenty on the early Franks, Clovis and the reign of Charlemagne but after that it's a total dark age until the Habsburgs, which at that point is more than just the HRE! I have enough French and English history to keep me occupied until the end of time, but nothing east of the Rhine!
Hesitant to take youtube docs that aren't professionally produced seriously, they often have very unsubtle ethnic and political biases.

Hell even finding things to watch on the Byzantines and Moorish Spain was easier than this!

There's plenty of lectures, but I find they can be dry, and I like those for other specific times. And it'll break the immersion I'm in going from the dawn of civilizations through contemporary times!

So, there must be some titles out there that someone can recommend?

bedpan
Apr 23, 2008

SeaWolf posted:

I've been looking for documentaries to watch and keep me occupied on as much of the medieval world I can get my hands on.
But I can't find a damned thing on the Holy Roman Empire. There's plenty on the early Franks, Clovis and the reign of Charlemagne but after that it's a total dark age until the Habsburgs, which at that point is more than just the HRE! I have enough French and English history to keep me occupied until the end of time, but nothing east of the Rhine!
Hesitant to take youtube docs that aren't professionally produced seriously, they often have very unsubtle ethnic and political biases.

Hell even finding things to watch on the Byzantines and Moorish Spain was easier than this!

There's plenty of lectures, but I find they can be dry, and I like those for other specific times. And it'll break the immersion I'm in going from the dawn of civilizations through contemporary times!

So, there must be some titles out there that someone can recommend?

The Reichskammergericht is handling a DMCA claim on all worthwhile HRE videos at the moment. You can expect a resolution by at least 2550

bedpan
Apr 23, 2008

Pharmaskittle posted:

Lmao 4500 calories a day when fasting

lmao, a McDonald's double cheeseburger, large french fry, and chocolate milk shake combined are only 1540 calories

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

SeaWolf posted:

I've been looking for documentaries to watch and keep me occupied on as much of the medieval world I can get my hands on.
But I can't find a damned thing on the Holy Roman Empire. There's plenty on the early Franks, Clovis and the reign of Charlemagne but after that it's a total dark age until the Habsburgs, which at that point is more than just the HRE! I have enough French and English history to keep me occupied until the end of time, but nothing east of the Rhine!
Hesitant to take youtube docs that aren't professionally produced seriously, they often have very unsubtle ethnic and political biases.

Hell even finding things to watch on the Byzantines and Moorish Spain was easier than this!

There's plenty of lectures, but I find they can be dry, and I like those for other specific times. And it'll break the immersion I'm in going from the dawn of civilizations through contemporary times!

So, there must be some titles out there that someone can recommend?

It's one of those things that it's just easier to read about than anything else because it's a fairly niche interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0184v2j
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b047c312
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07z6vzq
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0832rmz
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00548cz
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0038x8z

Here would be some places you could get small snapshots.

SeaWolf
Mar 7, 2008

bedpan posted:

Reichskammergericht

Gesundheit!

Disinterested posted:

It's one of those things that it's just easier to read about than anything else because it's a fairly niche interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0184v2j
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b047c312
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07z6vzq
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0832rmz
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00548cz
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0038x8z

Here would be some places you could get small snapshots.

Thanks for this. You're totally right from what it seems... Too long a timeframe for a fragmented 'empire' with too many things going on to focus on any single overarching theme... Shame, because it seems like it would be perfect for some sort of episodic series focusing on different parts of the German states and why it took a millennium for them to unify.

Work has been stupid slow the past couple weeks, visual documentaries over podcasts and audio keep me from ADD'ing too much during the day!

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

SeaWolf posted:

why it took a millennium for them to unify.
don't assume that the things that happened in other places were the teleology toward which all european states had to tend and that there was something deficient about the Empire for not doing that

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

HEY GAIL posted:

don't assume that the things that happened in other places were the teleology toward which all european states had to tend and that there was something deficient about the Empire for not doing that

Sure, but asking the question 'why did the empire do this when all its neighbors did that" is still valid question.

You don't need to be stirring tea leaves looking for a Sonderweg to ask why Germany didn't look like France, England, or Poland.

Nothingtoseehere
Nov 11, 2010


Assuming that unification is "natural" and treating the HRE not unifying as a bad thing is wrong. Asking "why didn't the HRE unify, it seemed to be the trend of other states" is fine. Although "unification" is a pretty hazy concept in itself - the UK was pretty much always more unified politically that most of Europe, for a long time when it was just England still.

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?
There are other problematic assumptions there as well. Until Philip II, kings of France look like a joke compared to German kings, effectively exercising zero authority in France beyond symbolism and some church appointments. The counts of Toulouse could think of themselves as kings in their own kingdom. Likewise, Italy and Spain aren't exactly unitary either, and just because you have a unitary kingdom, doesn't mean it's centralised. Also some early German kings (Ottonians) are extremely strong because they still have power over the German church untrammeled by the Pope, and there are other highs and lows for German kings all the way through (compare Barbarossa to Louis the Bavarian).

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?
Contrary to how a lot of people conceptualize it I think the idea that the Empire is an Empire of many states is fairly late.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Disinterested posted:

There are other problematic assumptions there as well. Until Philip II, kings of France look like a joke compared to German kings, effectively exercising zero authority in France beyond symbolism and some church appointments. The counts of Toulouse could think of themselves as kings in their own kingdom. Likewise, Italy and Spain aren't exactly unitary either, and just because you have a unitary kingdom, doesn't mean it's centralised. Also some early German kings (Ottonians) are extremely strong because they still have power over the German church untrammeled by the Pope, and there are other highs and lows for German kings all the way through (compare Barbarossa to Louis the Bavarian).

Sure, but there is still a period of centralized state building that goes on in the late medieval and early modern period in many places and not in others. Trying to suss out why some developed one way and others another is perfectly fine and doesn't need to have a normative component.

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Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Cyrano4747 posted:

Sure, but there is still a period of centralized state building that goes on in the late medieval and early modern period in many places and not in others. Trying to suss out why some developed one way and others another is perfectly fine and doesn't need to have a normative component.

Sure, I wasn't addressing the teleological one, just the comparative one, and also touching on the fact the trends are very nonlinear in medieval Germany. In 1000 France looks like the basket case monarchy and Germany looks like a relatively centralised monarchy, particularly since the questioner left off at the end of the Carolingians.

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