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Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


"Gangnam Style" outsold and out-streamed "One More Night" in nearly every week the latter was number one, so if Billboard was operating under the same formula as it did a decade ago, "Gangnam Style" would have been guaranteed the top spot. At the moment, however, their method of calculating chart points is biased toward radio airplay and "One More Night" was an absolute monster on American radio in the latter half of 2012.

The balance of the three main components used to determine chart positions on the Hot 100 - namely airplay, sales and streaming - is a point of contention among chart watchers and it's situations such as this one (and, as a further example, the refusal of Taylor Swift's record company to release any of her new music to streaming services such as Spotify) that puts it in the spotlight. Contrast this to the situation in Britian, where the Official Charts are purely sales-based.

Nevertheless, I believe it had the result of making "One More Night" one of the most anonymous long-running number one singles of the past decade. To elaborate, in their weekly chart updates (at one point, they were daily updates, which is almost unheard of for Billboard), Billboard made Psy the star of the show. The fact that Maroon 5 had achieved one of the biggest hits of the year was an afterthought; they were there for "Gangnam Style" to struggle against, not because "One More Night" was particularly meritorious on its own.

Would "General Chart Discussion" be within the purview of this thread?

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Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


The policy was instituted as a response to criticisms directed at Billboard in the 1990s, when singles were ineligible for the chart if they didn't have a physical release. Songs like "Champagne Supernova" and "D'You Know What I Mean?", "Fly", "Torn", "Don't Speak" and "Iris" were all huge radio hits but they didn't make a significant impact on the Hot 100 because they had either no or only a limited release as a physical single.

The Hot 100 purports to measure the popularity of a song, and there's more to popularity than the number of units sold. That being said, I think they overcorrected, and I think that while the airplay component should certainly be retained, sales should bear more weight in the overall rankings. That's just me, though.

Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at Jan 28, 2013 around 23:06

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


One of the most interesting events in pop music in 2012 was the apparent commercial decline of R&B. Consider the example of Usher; he was one of the biggest stars of the last decade, and until Adele's sophomore record came out in 2011, Confessions was the most recently released album to achieve a Diamond certification for sales of ten million units. Last year, Usher released Looking 4 Myself and it debuted at number one on the Billboard 200, but its first week sales were significantly lower than what a artist of his stature should be capable of achieving, even in this sales climate.

It was the same story with Alicia Keys, whose own 2012 effort, Girl On Fire moved 159, 000 copies in its first week. It also debuted at number one, but this represents the lowest first week sales figure of her career so far; her previous record started at number two on the album chart with opening sales of 417, 000. What about a more extreme example? I trust everyone is familiar with Chris Brown, the man with teflon skin whose 2011 album F.A.M.E. was number one for a week in 2011. His follow-up to that album, Fortune, was released last year and in its first week it sold approximately half of what its predecessor figures.

By all accounts, it's the product of a backlash in the R&B fandom; there is a perception, fair or not, that all three artists have ignored their urban fans in favour of chasing Top 40 crossover hits. This would have been fine a few years ago when Top 40 and urban radio were essentially synonymous; Usher could release a club anthem like "Yeah!" without alienating his R&B fanbase, because it was guaranteed that a quality slow jam like "Burn" would be a surefire hit on both the urban and CHR formats. That's no longer the case; in order to get into the Top 40, urban artists have to modify their sound to pander to electro-/dance-pop trends, and from what I can tell, some R&B fans aren't exactly thrilled about it. I think that's why audiences are excited by the success of artists like the Weeknd, Frank Ocean and Miguel.

Still, I must be honest and admit that I'm not really a huge R&B fan; I'm mainly interested in trends within the pop music landscape.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


ninjahedgehog posted:

Man, I hope they're right this time. Fun at least has two charting singles, but Gotye's sitting at just the one. If I were his producer I'd be frantically trying to release another one soon before he starts running the risk of being a one-hit-wonder.

I imagine Gotye will find himself in a similar position to Peter Gabriel; he will be successful in countries other than America and he will always be respected as an artist, but beyond his big hit mainstream success in the USA will elude him.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Benne posted:

--Justin Timberlake's comeback has an uphill road. "Suit & Tie", his collaboration with Jay-Z is dripping with star power, but it only debuted at #84. Will be interesting to watch how this single tracks.

I'd say appearances are deceiving; it debuted after only a couple of days worth of airplay and once it had been available for a full week it went up eighty places to #4. The same thing happened to "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together" last year; it debuted at #72 based on early radio attention then shot straight up to #1 as soon as it was available to download.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Sprat Sandwich posted:

Too bad that, while 'We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together' is an amazing song from a pretty great album, 'Suit & Tie' is a bit poo poo, especially coming from the man who brought sexy back. Doesn't fill me with confidence for his next album.

I actually think the Max Martin songs are the weakest on Red, but I guess that's a pretty generic opinion. I guess I don't think she has the voice for them.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


OldTennisCourt posted:

It's pretty depressing looking at Maroon 5 now. Songs about Jane wasn't GREAT but it at least had some level of uniqueness between songs and Sunday Morning is a drat good song. Now they're releasing some of the worst stuff in music right now. Payphone is loving atrocious and One More Night is such a bland mess of ugly that I can't stand more than 5 seconds of it.

I'm not really a Maroon 5 fan. I liked "This Love" when it was a hit but that's about as far as it goes for me. Anyway, it's basically Adam Levine and his backing band at this point.

Sprat Sandwich posted:

Well my overall tastes lean towards Max Martin-ish stuff (seriously, what a guy), but this is pop so everyone has something they like/dislike.

Oh, I've no enmity towards Max Martin or the songs he writes (between Britney Spears, the Backstreet Boys, Katy Perry, P!nk and a host of others, you could probably argue he's the most influential pop songwriter of the past ten years). Like Holland-Dozier-Holland or Stock Aitken Waterman, he knows what makes a hit.

Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at Jan 29, 2013 around 13:50

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


If you don't already, check out Paul Grein's Chart Watch blog on Yahoo! He's a former long-term Billboard employee, but I think his blog is easier to navigate and sometimes a more informative source for chart followers than the actual Billboard website.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


prahanormal posted:

I don't really see how anyone could justify listening to Chris Brown, even if we ignore how lovely of a person he is.

Chris Brown is a hot-headed, aggressive and angry man, but where is it in his music? How can somebody so prone to violent fits of temper, who rises to the tiniest perceived slight or provocation, record music that's so unremittingly dull?

Anyway, there's only one musician who comes to mind that I'd be embarassed to admit to liking, and that's Ted Nugent. I appreciate his skill as a guitarist and I enjoy his music (Double Live Gonzo is one of the great live albums of the 1970s), even if he is a complete and utter prick.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Sprat Sandwich posted:

Seriously managements are completely retarded sometimes.

I'm given to understand that very little money goes into artist development in the current industry. I recall reading interviews given by Lou Gramm (lead vocalist of Foreigner) and Steve Johnstad (lead vocalist of Mayday) who concurred that, yes, rock music in the 1980s may have been corporate, but in their experience the corporations were more likely to give bands a chance to grow and didn't always expect them to be a huge hit straight out of the gate.

What they essentially suggested was that artists were once investments for their labels, they're on the road to becoming get-rich-quick schemes.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


At the same time, I think we need to recognise that the music industry in general is not what it once was and some labels simply can't afford to take risks. It's not an ideal situation but it's the one we've got at the moment.

Anyway, one thing I've been wondering lately is whether the UK chart should incorporate some kind of airplay and streaming element to emulate the Billboard Hot 100, something the Official Charts Company has resisted for quite some time now. Do any other British chart watchers have any thoughts on this?

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


That's the issue with airplay. Its inclusion depends on what the chart in question is trying to measure; in America, the Hot 100 ranks overall national popularity and radio data is a component of that. As far as I can see, the problem with this is freefold: first, it will almost inevitably result in payola; second, it concentrates too much power in the hands of programme directors; and third, one company (Clear Channel) owns so many key radio stations nationwide that it enjoys an effective monopoly.

I'm not convinced it would work in Britain, largely for two reasons. First, radio is dominated by Radio 1 and Radio 2 and since the BBC is also responsible for compiling the main chart, this could lead to a conflict of interest. Second, Britain lacks the format-based system which operates in America. To illustrate, when he was asked why Def Leppard became popular in America before Britain, Joe Elliott explained that Britain lacks the necessary infrastructure, whereas America provided an obvious channel for selling their music in the form of mainstream rock radio.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


"Thrift Shop" holds at number one on the Hot 100 for a third consecutive week (and if the mid-week update is any indication, it'll occupy a similar position here in the UK on Sunday). I don't know if this is going to be a "We Are Young"- or "Somebody That I Used To Know"-style megahit, but I hope it is, not least because there's this hilarious commenter on billboard.com who rants that "THE NOVELTY SONG" will "FALL FROM GRACE AND LOSE ALL ITS SALES NEXT WEEK" nearly every time it's mentioned in an article.

The number one album in America is Justin Bieber's acoustic remix album. It exceeded its expectations but it probably won't be there next week. Album sales tend to be massively frontloaded nowadays, so albums actually staying at number one for more than three weeks is an increasingly rare occurance.

Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at Feb 7, 2013 around 19:11

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


There's been much talk of a "boy band revival" but in actual fact it's more a case of One Direction becoming immensely popular while happening to be a boy band. The Wanted have achieved one significant hit on the Hot 100 so far; I think much will depend on how well their next release fares.

I get the impression that One Direction aren't really as big as we're supposed to think they are. While their albums have been pretty successful considering the sales climate (still barely a tenth of what the Backstreet Boys and *NSYNC could do ten years ago) their singles beyond "What Makes You Beautiful" haven't doing quite as well as one might expect of the sort of act they are. Their second American single ("One Thing") stalled in the lower reaches of the Top 40, but this might have been because Syco wanted to gear up for their second album and didn't want to promote another single. However, although "Live While We're Young" actually broke a digital sales record in its first week of release, it dropped out of the Top 10 in its second and then plummeted out of the Top 40 in its third. The follow-up (the Ed Sheeran-penned ballad "Little Things") was touted as a megahit, but it only scraped into the bottom half of the Top 40 and its on its way out of the Hot 100 at the moment.

At this point, it's probably better to speculate which one of them will have the most success when they go solo than it is to debate the future prospects of the group. Even on that front, the prospects seem difficult to determine.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Indeed. If their sales reflected their hype, the months of January and February would have been Take Me Home and Red trading the number one album spot. It wasn't to be, though. I suspect that, to a certain extent, they're being propped up and hyped to high heavens to try and vindicate The X Factor and its brand; the series has being hemorrhaging viewers in the UK and even the inclusion of Britney Spears on the judges' panel hasn't helped it in America and Simon Cowell probably wants to demonstrate that it can still produce bankable stars to reassure his investors. That's totally unverified, of course. Really, it's just guess-work on my part.

Keep in mind, though, that's not to say 1D haven't been successful. On the contrary, they had two albums that sold a million in America last year at a point where going Gold is treated as a massive achievement.

Anyway, I believe the Grammy Awards will be presented tomorrow evening. This seems as good a thread as any to discuss them.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


I think fun. could win a couple of the categories they've been nominated for. Certainly, Pop Vocal Album is a possibility, if Kelly Clarkson doesn't get it instead.

It never ceases to bemuse me when I see Mumford & Sons listed in the Rock category alongside bands like Iron Maiden and the Black Keys. Now, that's my personal bias showing, and I know the fact that my user name and avatar betray my corporate rock leanings, but it rouses the same sentiment in me as the discovery that there are people who like to "rock out" to Train.

I'm not entirely sure if Taylor Swift will win her nomination. I imagine she'll dominate the awards in 2014 since Red is going to keep spinning off hit singles, but WANEGBT feels like the "token sixth nomination" in its category.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


"Thrift Shop" is number one in America for a fourth consecutive week and it shows no signs of slowing down. It's not yet clear if this will be a hit of the same magnitude as "Somebody That I Used To Know" was in 2012, but at this point there's no reason it couldn't be. There seems to be a distinct lack of serious competition; perhaps Taylor Swift could dethrone them if her label released "I Knew You Were Trouble" to streaming outlets, but that isn't going to happen any time soon.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


RandomCheese posted:

If the Australian TripleJ audience is any measure of popularity it will be. The hottest 100 countdown (annual listener-voted song tally) for 2011 placed Gotye at #1 for Somebody I Used to Know and for last years countdown Macklamore took out the top spot for Thrift Shop.

With Gotye it's understandable; an Australian artist will obviously chart in their home country first. However, "Somebody That I Used To Know" also peaked in the UK and other parts of Europe a few months before it made similar headway in America.

I suppose it's a consequence of the sheer size and diversity of America and its listening audience. It can make it difficult for a song to infiltrate the Top 40 playlists and take root in the mainstream consciousness, especially when it isn't the sort of thing one would typically expect to see on the pop charts. At the same time, this situation encourages homogeneity out of the need to appeal to the largest possible audience. That's why it's much more common for novelty songs to become hits in countries where the audience is significantly smaller.

Speaking of novelty singles, which does everybody think are the best (for a certain value of "best")? I have a curious affection for "The Smurf Song" by Father Abraham and the version of "Fog On the Tyne" recorded by Lindisfarne featuring Paul Gascoigne. They are unimaginably bad, but in a fascinating way.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Sprat Sandwich posted:

Gazzas effort is incredible and is exactly something he would do (also he was drunk as hell).

When he yells, "C'MON!" at the start, that's the the instant you know exactly what kind of experience you're in for.

Even so, could you imagine somebody like, for example, Ashley Cole doing that?

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


In an interesting development, Billboard has announced its intention to incorporate YouTube viewing data into its calculation of the Hot 100. The ramifications of this decision are potentially massive and their effect is immediate; "Harlem Shake" has become the twenty-first song to debut at number one on the Hot 100 thanks to its memetic presence on YouTube.

If this policy had been in place last year, "Gangnam Style" would have broken Mariah Carey and Boyz II Men's record for the longest occupation of the number one slot.

If this policy had been in place a couple of years ago, "Friday" would have been a number one song.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Sprat Sandwich posted:

That's pretty interesting. I know quite many people who use YouTube as their primary method of listening to music, but that's mostly because we don't have Spotify or anything like that. Although how do they deal with multiple views? People usually buy a song once or twice and you'd still get a relatively accurate result, but with YouTube and other streaming services you can't just use the view count, even with IP checks.

As one might expect, they're only taking into account views from American IP addresses, so I assume there's software that will address that issue.

Likewise, with iTunes, they only count the first purchase from either a given account or IP address (I can't remember which it is), so I imagine they'll have some way to deal with the inevitable problem caused by zealous fans

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Benne posted:

Man I would hope they have some other way of calculating the Youtube data than simple page views. Otherwise, what's stopping a 4chan/reddit raid from getting, say, Anal stinkyhole on the charts?

That would be hilarious, but if it did happen it would probably compel them to change their policy again.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Sprat Sandwich posted:

Reminds me when, I think in 2009, a bunch of people on Facebook started a thing to get Rage Against The Machine's 'Killing In The Name' as the UK Number 1 Christmas single and did it, with digital sales only.

It's an easier undertaking in the UK, because our charts are based exclusively on sales. There's no airplay or streaming component. Of course, it was only ever going to work once.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Sprat Sandwich posted:

Girls Aloud loving rule and I will fight everyone who disagrees.

I'm afraid I can't agree, but that's just me.

Anyway, I've heard Shania Twain might have an album out this year or next. While it goes without saying that nothing she does will be able to equal the dizzyingly high standard (commercially, at least) set by Come On Over and The Woman In Me, is she in with a chance or has her ship long since sailed?

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Check this out; this is a series of articles entitled "The Winner's History Of Rock and Roll" and it looks at why "mainstream rock" is on the verge of becoming an oxymoron, if it isn't one already. It's written by Steven Hyden, who used to be the music editor over at the Onion A. V. Club. I enjoyed reading it, and hopefully others will too.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


deadwing posted:

Holy poo poo the new Paramore song is going to be absolutely massive on the charts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjZsuCKI-Uw

I haven't really heard much of Paramore, but this song was fun to listen to. It'll probably be a decent hit on the Mainstream Rock chart, but I don't know if it's likely to cross over into the Hot 100.

This presents an interesting opportunity to debate why, as some have argued, "mainstream rock" is on the verge of becoming an oxymoron. Why is this so, when there's no shortage of rock bands who still know how to write teriffic pop songs?

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


This is a post I made on another forum, regarding One Direction. This seems as good a place as any to repeat it:

I've read an article recently that's helped to consolidate some thoughts I've had about the much mooted "boy band revival".

They're not exactly adhering to what we were led to expect from boy bands based on the previous wave? Groups like *NSYNC and the Backstreet Boys, what they did was essentially R&B following the Boyz II Men/Color Me Badd formula with choreographed dance moves and stand-up-for-the-key-change barstool balladeering. This is not something One Direction have; what they have are guitar-led songs which have much more in common with stuff like "Since U Been Gone" and "So What", the sort of pleasant enough but largely inoffensive pop-rock Max Martin produces when he muses, "Wasn't I in a hair metal band back in the day?"

Perhaps that is why the Wanted haven't been very successful in comparison. They're arguably closer to R&B than their competitors, and R&B is nearly on its last legs in the mainstream consciousness at this point. Conversely, 1D are exploiting a style that's been very popular since Kelly Clarkson hit the scene, but with the added twist of being performed by five guys.

Obviously, Todd's made some more substantive observations about how their lyrical content works in their favour.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Superrodan posted:

Of course, I have a feeling Paramore is the type of band that would want to punch me for that suggestion, and I'm not even saying it would make the song better... just more "singalong"-able and therefore higher on the Hot 100.

I suppose that's a fair assessment.

It sometimes seems as though contemporary rock bands don't really do sing-alongs. The hair metal bands were good at sing-alongs, as were the AOR bands (Journey, Boston, Foreigner and so on). Obviously, I'm generally keen on pop-metal, so maybe I'm just biased.

Foo Fighters have some good ones, and they're probably the biggest rock band there is at the moment, but I don't get the impression it's a terribly high priority for a lot of bands. Rock doesn't really cross over very much any more.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


While I'm not really much of a fan, I have noticed that Girls Aloud have decided to call it quits. Hadn't they only just got back together?

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Since Benne has posted one of his reviews in the thread already, I thought I'd mention that Todd In the Shadows has a review of "Scream and Shout" by will.i.am and Britney Bitch Spears up.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


het posted:

My only exposure to this guy being what little of this video and the previous one that I could stand, does this guy actually like pop music? So far this doesn't sound any different from the average annoying nerd complaining about popular music.

He likes pop music in general. His videos are about songs he thinks are bad.

Maremidon posted:

He put a Flo Rida song on his top ten best songs of the year video.

I think that about says it all.

I think he put a different Flo Rida song on his video concerning the top ten worst songs of the same year, though.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Sprat Sandwich posted:

Excuse me but A-ha is a very well known band and has had a lot of success in many different countries with many different songs

That's a problem with the definition of a "one hit wonder". Very often, they have at least one lesser hit that's been forgotten, or they're enormously successful in other parts of the world. For example, Madness and Frankie Goes To Hollywood are bands who are often described as one hit wonders in America but did a lot better in Europe.

quote:

And 'I Believe In A Thing Called Love' is a great fun song.

Yeah, it's great, though I suppose it was inevitable that there would be people going, "Stop it! Heavy metal is meant to be serious, damnit! "

In other news, Justin Timberlake's new album sold more than the next sixty-five albums on the Billboard 200 put together.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Do you think Psy will have another hit in America? I guess if he's able to come up with another ultra-memetic video it might take him all the way to number one under the new rules, but that obviously remains to be seen.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


It's interesting that of the three artists who dominated the Hot 100 for close to half of 2012 (and with their debut entries on the chart, no less) only fun. were able to score a reasonably big follow-up hit.

Gotye was and in some respects still is an anomaly, but it's weird that Carly Rae Jepsen couldn't chart a "Some Nights"-level solo follow-up after her breakthrough single. I remember last November when the Official Charts website published their usual article listing potential contenders for the Christmas number one, they suggested that "This Kiss" could be in with a chance, so I take it there were serious expectations.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Joramun posted:

Yeah, it certainly isn't for a lack of quality. Kiss as a pop album is already a modern classic with many potential singles, and the ones they have selected as singles so far have been good choices. This Kiss for all intents and purposes should have been an even bigger hit than Call Me Maybe, even if the clumsy product placement in the video was rather ill-advised.

Well, I can't attest as to the quality of the songs because I haven't listened to the album, but the issue that interests me is why they haven't been hits. You'd think somebody who recorded Billboard's song of the summer, one of the biggest hits of 2012, would have had less trouble getting played on the radio.

As it transpired, "This Kiss" fell far short of the Top 40 in America and it didn't even crack the Top 100 here in the UK. It's just, what happened?

Maybe we're looking at it the wrong way; maybe instead of pondering why "This Kiss" wasn't a hit, we should ask why "Call Me Maybe" was.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


I don't think its video was distinctive in the same way as "Gangnam Style" but there were definitely quite a few parodies (the Cookiee Monster version, "Share It Maybe", for example) that probably helped it along.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


I remember there was this unbelievably stupid shitstorm over the release of Born This Way. What happened was, Amazon priced it at 99 cents for a few days in its first week of release, which helped to push it over the one million mark in its first week on the album chart, and her detractors still won't let her live down. It's kind of like the pop music equivalent of stereotypical classic rock teenager YouTube commenters.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


On a recent visit to PopJustice, I was accosted by an article about a new boy band called Union J, who were apparently the One Direction of last year's series of The X Factor, except there are only four of them and I think one of them is gay.

I wonder what their prospects are. I'm pretty sure their single will be a hit here in the UK, but will the residual hype surrounding One Direction carry them to similar success across the water, or will they end up like the Wanted and fail to live up to their early Transatlantic promise?

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Sprat Sandwich posted:

The X-Factor finalist success is pretty hard to predict. I mean you get the usual winners songs (who can disappear after that one song) and some lower placed people like JLS and 1D and Cher Lloyd and Diana Vickers who do pretty well but get dropped and the second album is a joke time-wise (WHERE IS IT VICKO), and then there are the curveballs, like I don't think anyone expected Amelia Lily to break top 20, never mind top 2 (and now she's gone too).

What do think the prospects are for James Arthur? He seems kind of awkward to me; not exactly somebody who exudes charisma. I imagine he'll end up in the same boat as Matt Cardle.

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Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


Sprat Sandwich posted:

I think he is the worst an artist can be - dull. The only thing I can remember is his gratuitous use of mascara? So yeah, Cardle seems to be the one to compare him to (except the mascara, of course).

It's a problematic mentality that mistakes "dull" for "serious artist" but it still crops up from time to time.

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