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Uncle Boogeyman posted:But I do think that to frame "Hey, we made Captain America black/Thor a woman" as a progressive action is *deep breath* problematic. I don't even think it's promoted for that reason, because that will never garner the bigger reaction. Think about who's buying all this poo poo anyway, and think about how they react to controversy. quote:The Captain America situation isn't really what I'm talking about though, because it's replacing one white dude with another white dude. I'm specifically referring to when they introduce a minority version of a character, and that version thereafter becomes known as "the black Green Lantern" or "the black Spider-Man" or what have you. No, I agree, what I'm saying is that while that worldview is out there, what do you really gain from engaging with it or taking it seriously? Why waste energy on someone whose imagination is so limited they can't even comprehend a woman doing stuff? Sure, people have written a bunch of ho-hum Black Green Lantern stories, but it's worth it for Mosaic.
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Jul 18, 2014 22:58
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Holy crap some of you guys take your funny books about thunder gods very seriously. But hey gotg looks fun!
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Jul 18, 2014 22:59
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Optimist with doubt posted:Holy crap some of you guys take your funny books about thunder gods very seriously. But hey gotg looks fun! I don't appreciate them co-opting and pushing the environmental movement by forcing a talking raccoon and humanoid tree on me. I'll see it twice, anyway.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:02
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Watch these videos and find out who the real star of Guardians of the Galaxy is going to be. (Hint: It's Drax) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRlfIhic_Es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8jIM9OPYao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bFmqO7IF_A
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Jul 18, 2014 23:06
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I don't even think it's promoted for that reason, because that will never garner the bigger reaction. Think about who's buying all this poo poo anyway, and think about how they react to controversy. Yeah, I get what you're saying. The problem is that I feel the ideal solution is to create new, strong minority characters that stand on their own without just being the minority version of a white character, right? But they've tried that, and even when it's good, nobody loving buys it. Like, Steel seems to me to be the right way to do a black Superman. You want a black Superman, you don't just have some black Kryptonian show up and call himself Superman and fill in until the "real" Superman comes back. You make him a unique character that can exist on Superman's level while also remaining a distinct individual that can be used to tell stories that Superman can't. And they put great creators to work on him - Louise Simonson, John Bogdanove, Denys Cowan, Christopher Priest. And his solo series lasted four years before it got cancelled, and it's never been reprinted, and he's never had another one. For all comics are "in" and "mainstream" now, they're still a small enough pool that if something doesn't take off right the gently caress away, it gets shitcanned. You're right, I don't wanna waste energy engaging with some basement dwelling dickhead who only wants to read about white male superheroes and fears change. But unfortunately that dude still drives the market.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:07
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Yeah, but it is what it is. It took Deadpool like fifteen years to become a character anybody gave two hoots about. It's just hard selling people on new characters, the last one of any real consequence was what, Wolverine? That's also the beauty of it too, because the margins are low enough on this stuff for people to write 80 issue epics about Renee Montoya.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:11
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Spawn's a minority character that became crazy popular quick, but probably not the best place to look for inspiration.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:13
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Yeah, but it is what it is. It took Deadpool like fifteen years to become a character anybody gave two hoots about. It's just hard selling people on new characters, the last one of any real consequence was what, Wolverine? That's also the beauty of it too, because the margins are low enough on this stuff for people to write 80 issue epics about Renee Montoya. Well I mean I guess it depends on your definition of "real consequence," but Deadpool is much newer than Wolverine*. But yeah, it's definitely the nature of the beast, it's just very frustrating. The things going on at Image and IDW give me a little bit of hope that there's a sea change building. And of course, having a more diverse base of creators seems to be far more necessary than simply having a diverse cast of characters - Claremont's X-Men were theoretically the most diverse crew ever, except they were all written by Chris Claremont**. *I'm aware that admitting Rob Liefeld created a character of real consequence sticks in the throat a little. **No disrespect, I love Chris Claremont, but come on.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:14
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morestuff posted:Spawn's a minority character that became crazy popular quick, but probably not the best place to look for inspiration. Certainly didn't help that McFarlane got sued a bunch of times, where he seemed to be at fault each and every time. He's supposedly writing the script for a reboot. If it blew up, the character might see a resurgence.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:17
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morestuff posted:Spawn's a minority character that became crazy popular quick, but probably not the best place to look for inspiration. A minority character that, when he isn't wearing a mask, is burnt beyond recognition. BUT, there is something to be said there, and as... not good as the early issues of Spawn are, I have a certain amount of respect for MacFarlane for not just making his big headlining character black but tackling race relations pretty head-on; there's an early issue where Spawn figures out how to disguise himself as an ordinary human being, but for some reason he can only manifest himself as a white guy, and he spends like half an issue raging at the fact that he can't even make himself appear as a black man again. That's some pretty intense, Watermelon Man-esque subject matter for such a gimmicky, cash-grabby comic as Spawn.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:18
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Yeah, it would be like, Spawn, Harley Quinn, ???
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Jul 18, 2014 23:20
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:A minority character that, when he isn't wearing a mask, is burnt beyond recognition. Right, it's the P word.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:20
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I think I've written about this before, but this comes up pretty often. People correctly identify an issue, but are unable to pinpoint or articulate why it's an issue. With 'Black Heimdall,' the real source of the complaints is that the Marvelverse presents Asgard as a liberal-multicultural utopian future Earth. Unwilling or unable to express dissatisfaction with liberalism, these complaints are translated into 'apolitical' grievances about canonicity and whatever. This same phenomenon leads to endless debate over "what the real Superman would do." Naturally, there is no 'real' Superman. This is just a safe way to depoliticize a political stance. In the case of most Man Of Steel complaints, the slow systemic death of the entire planet is preferable to a more modest, radical change in how that system operates. These complaints emphasize that Superman allows people to die and thereby basically kills them himself. Violence is only justifiable if noone gets hurt. If Superman moves Grandma out of the path of a runaway truck, and allows the driver to break his leg in the crash, the outcome is non-optimal and thus unacceptable. It's pretty easy to link this back to tactical realism arguments - laying out the optimal plan for how to dispassionately massacre poor people during the zombie apocalypse, because that's the realistic way to behave. The idea that a woman is more worthy to be Thor is obviously going to ruffle feathers, but the part that's really under contention is the definition of 'worthiness' - the fear that worthiness will be (re)defined in terms of (liberal) feminism. The correct answer to this debate is that Marvel itself does not live up to its own standard of worthiness, and should be destroyed. The character's gender is mostly irrelevant in the face of this truth.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:36
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Commercial works come and go, I suppose.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:53
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So basically Nihilism. Just end existence.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:55
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Gatts posted:So basically Nihilism. Just end existence. Finally, something I agree with.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:07
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TheJoker138 posted:Finally, something I agree with. Hickman is going to reveal that the reason incursions are happening in the Marvel multi-verse is because of this thread,
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Jul 19, 2014 00:17
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Gatts posted:So basically Nihilism. Just end existence. Quite the opposite: the point is to take this concept of worthiness more 'seriously' than ever. This was the message in Captain America 1, where he wakes up to discover he's trapped in a corporate franchise. The fictional world of goofball Freedom and Justice is more true than the cynical reality we're stuck in. Not 'turn off your brain' - the filmmakers acknowledge this cynicism and deliberately reject it. Cap 1 functions as a damning indictment of the company that produced it. Naturally, this 'serious' approach is infinitely more amusing than the standard tactic of getting in a tizzy preserving a childhood that never existed. There is no star wars canon.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:32
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Geoff Johns said that DC wants their TV shows and movies to remain separate from each other. https://twitter.com/TVGuide/status/490194209622999041
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Jul 19, 2014 00:35
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Marvel can never be truly gender progressive because it exists as a capitalist corporation within a system that is still hardwired to be patriarchal. They throw occasional bones to women as a marketing gimmick, but their fundamental mission is at odds with promoting gender equality.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:42
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The MSJ posted:Geoff Johns said that DC wants their TV shows and movies to remain separate from each other. This is a dumb move in my opinion. The shows already have a pretty big built-in fanbase. Why not take advantage of that? Plus it saves them the trouble of re-introducing characters later on. They can pull Ollie or Black Canary into a Justice League movie without need for explanation. And we've already got Barry Allen's origin established, which means he won't need much of an introduction for a solo movie or they can introduce Wally West in a solo movie and be able to skip the bulk of the mythos surrounding the character. But maybe I'm just getting tired of origin stories in movies.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:09
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Esroc posted:This is a dumb move in my opinion. The shows already have a pretty big built-in fanbase. Why not take advantage of that? Plus it saves them the trouble of re-introducing characters later on. They can pull Ollie or Black Canary into a Justice League movie without need for explanation. And we've already got Barry Allen's origin established, which means he won't need much of an introduction for a solo movie or they can introduce Wally West in a solo movie and be able to skip the bulk of the mythos surrounding the character. Agents of shield.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Agents of shield. Agents of Shield got badass once the ban on affecting the movie franchise was lifted in the aftermath of Winter Solider. If you don't think the final two episodes were great then you have no heart.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Agents of shield. Yeah, but Arrow is a better show than Agents of Shield, and The Flash pilot is leagues above the Agents of Shield pilot.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:28
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Thoroughly disappointed that the thread title has not been changed to include the words "My Dick. Suck it." yet.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:30
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Esroc posted:Agents of Shield got badass once the ban on affecting the movie franchise was lifted in the aftermath of Winter Solider. If you don't think the final two episodes were great then you have no heart. I think that's the point. Many people think that the the show wasn't allowed to do anything interesting until Cap 2 was released in theaters. The series is also not likely to affect the movie franchise much. The movies affecting the series is a given, but not the other way around.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:36
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Rhyno posted:Thoroughly disappointed that the thread title has not been changed to include the words "My Dick. Suck it." yet. And it never will. Happy Noodle Boy posted:Hickman is going to reveal that the reason incursions are happening in the Marvel multi-verse is because of this thread, We give this thread to the great wheel as an offering. Rabum Alal.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:38
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