politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Mister Adequate posted:

I think my favorite part of that map is that the bomb has managed to annihilate everything up to the border of Israel, with the implication that Israel survives just fine. Even if we discount all the other problems caused by this, being slightly beyond the crater doesn't actually make you safe, Israel is going to be as scoured of life as anywhere within Ground Zero Ocean.

The Ground Zero Ocean is going to become a popular tourist destination.

_{In three hundred million years.}

# ¿ Mar 5, 2013 21:20

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 18:43

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Japan didn't have enough resources to win their ongoing Chinese campaign, so in hindsight any projection beyond "The Japanese are going to awkwardly sit there and wait for us to kill them" was too pessimistic.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2013 22:09

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Lawman 0 posted:

Well invading china is alot like trying to invade the united states considering its size.

Well, the Chinese were fragmented, and sometimes violently anti-Chian... Unfortunately for Japan, all those fragments were more likely to Support Kuomintang than Manchuoko. Hell, the Japanese even paid money to their Chinese "allies" who turned their allegiances as soon as their Japanese cheques got paid.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2013 22:35

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Kingsbury3 posted:

CERN+Russia

basically the roman empire+german factories (rhine)

other countries kept out for sporting purposes.

The interesting thing about the Roman Empire is that first, the Romans had strong presence in Central Europe (the region that is missing in your map); and Germanic chieftains bordering on the region were crucial in the political development of the young Empire. Here is an epigraphic evidence of Roman presence found in Slovakia:

It says: "Glory to the Emperor, and the garrison of Laugaricio, 855 soldiers of the II. legion of Marcus Vlaerius Maximianus, The Legate of the Second Auxiliary Legion, the Sponsor of this Message".

Then when the first Roman Empire collapsed, the blank portion of the map became the chief part of the Holy Roman Empire, beginning with successful wars of the Piasts and Premyslids against German lords, and culminating with Charles IV. and his Golden Bull of 1356 which turned today's Bohemia into the politically most prestigious piece of land East of France for next few hundred years (realistically until the battle of Austerlitz).

# ¿ Jun 6, 2013 21:47

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

PittTheElder posted:

That certainly is loaded. But the legend is so terribly worded I don't know whether to be horrified or not. Still pretty sure I should be; if more than 10% of people chose to prevent 9/11, the world is broken.

Oh, it's some internet poll. Still horrifying, but at least it's not actually representative of anything.

I bet some of the Middle Eastern responders chose their answer because 9/11 hurt them personally: brought a new wave of violence and to the region, and made global opinion on Muslims more hateful, so it was more significant for them than a genocide committed on another continent by people of another generation. Or maybe I'm just optimistic.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2013 23:42

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

The Libyan route leads presumably to Zwila / Zuwayla, Berber regional capital and later on a significant town of the Fatimid Caliphate, and a crossroad with trading routes leading further down to Sudan.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2013 10:30

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Rebel Blob posted:

Basing ecology of two continents on Lake Chad sounds like a pretty great idea.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2013 13:14

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Those 16th century maps from China are actually meant to be both correct AND symbolic. They represent a reactionary style of mapmaking in which East Asian authors tried to reconcile Western technical approach and traditional philosophical - political view of the world in certain Buddhist oriented cultures. In which the world is actually a disc divided into cosmologically significant parts / continents, which are depicted in a more or less prescribed graphical fashion - maps of this world can be basically read as a book describing interlinkage of various categories in a locally developed cosmology. The continent inhabited by humans (Jambudvipa), more widely understood as the land in which one can seek spiritual enlightenment, is the Southern of 4 continents making up our complex Earth, and is isolated from the other continents by circular seas and mountainous islands: The Chinese traditionally envisioned themselves as the centre of this continent. That's why it looks like the author made up random continents to fill the border of the map, and why everything is warped, and why the older map is so strangely symmetrical:

Authors of these maps had to adhere to the notion of China as the central point of a mythical topographically enclosed region with strongly prescribed geometric patterns, and at the same time put in as much detail as they could to compete with the foreigners.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2013 22:17

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

My guess would be the river in the eastern part of the "donut" is Nile, and the vertical appendage is the Arabian Peninsula.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2013 09:29

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

A funny thing about the Slavic word for Germany (Německo etc) is that it means "Land of the mutes". People back in the Middle Ages divided people between those they understood, and those who used some sort of unintelligible noises instead of language - and thus might as well be mute. And since the primary direct interface between these linguistic foreigners and Slavs lied in Germany, poor Germans got stuck with the label.

It just shows that in Europe historical relations are more important for names of countries than whatever names people chose for themselves.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2013 23:25

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Homer used the word barbarophonos to refer to tribes with incomprehensible languages.

Plato referred to the same concept of linguistic distinction between Greeks and foreigner.

It's pretty safe to say that yes, Greeks did use Barbar as universal handle for all nations that didn't use Greek language. Romans did use the term barbaria derived from the Greek origin meaning primitive, ignorant as the universal term for foreign lands.

Barbarossa comes from simple conjucture of Barba (beard) and Rossa (red) and tendency to link it with origin of barbars is just a myth.

E;FB like a bitch.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2013 23:56

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Zohar posted:

I'm slightly baffled about why a Hungarian surname meaning "Croat" is the most common surname in Slovakia.

Historically Slovakia was part of Hungary, together with some Southern Slavic regions. The surname got widespread due to internal migration and colonization, during which numerous Slovaks left for "Lower Countries" of Hungary and at the same time Southern nationalities (particularly Serbs) and people of Roma descent settled in Slovakia - and brought the surname "Croat" with them, of course written in the official Hungarian language (it's to be noted that Hungarian bureaucracy assigned migrants new surnames, generally according to place of descent, so even people who originally had other surnames became Horvaths).

steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Aug 27, 2013

# ¿ Aug 27, 2013 14:19

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

SaltyJesus posted:

It seems more logical and it would explain Horv�th (Croat) better. I am in no way an authority in Slovak history, however, so if I am wrong please correct me.

Of course some of them were actual Croats. But 1) Their original name was not Horvath, it was chosen for them by the state. 2) Very large numbers of Serbs and Roma did indeed get the name Horvath following their resettlement, to the point that it even today carries the connotation of the person with this name being seen as of the Roma descent.

After all, Croatia wasn't ethnically homogenous, and precise ethnic boundaries and distinctions probably weren't valued by bureaucrats as much as administrative expediency.

# ¿ Aug 27, 2013 15:22

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Dr. Tough posted:

I wouldn't count China, because they don't actually control Taiwan and plus there's a number of islands in the South China Sea that they don't control either.

I don't think those islands count towards any notion of Greater China (and Taiwan is debatable as to how to count it).

What China does lack, however, is Outer Mongolia.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2013 15:49

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Americans can't handle poutine.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2013 20:36

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Qing was definitely bigger in terms of actual control over Chinese provinces, (if we consider taxation to be the metric of government, Kublai's control was very much diminished in the lower reaches of China while 18th century Qing was the apex of Imperial control, probably greater than any other Chinese state). Also that previous map included a broad range of Mongolian conquests under the misleading header of Yuan.

Edit: It also seems that the map of Ukraine includes lands that were controlled during the civil war (1917-1921), up to the Brest-Litovsk. Quite a display of chutzpah, consiering how much land they got on Poland's account.

steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Aug 29, 2013

# ¿ Aug 29, 2013 21:24

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Peanut President posted:

I always heard that Mongolia joined up with the Soviets to keep China away.

Partially yes. Mongolia was occupied by Chinese troops following the Bolshevik revolution, then White generals (von Ungern-Sternberg, following Kolchaks influence in the region) took over for a while, then Red soldiers drove them out.

Unfortunately for the Peking (Beijing) government, all of that happened during the most chaotic period of modern Chinese history in which China existed only on paper and was in reality divided between dozens of warlords, following the death of controversial President Yuan Shih-kai in 1916. It was a period in which basically all government revenue had to be spent on foreign debt and war idemnities, and tax revenue was legally locked on level it was in 1713 (by Imperial decree issued that year), just to illustrate Chinese (in)ability to resist Russian / Mongolian pressure.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2013 22:19

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Shbobdb posted:

The whole anti-Roma thing is so . . . strange. When I lived in Germany, I got attacked by a group of three kids, couldn't have been older than ten because I was a "Gypsie". I'm not, I look like an Eastern European/Eastern European Jew.

I will say beating up kids is every bit as satisfying as you'd think it is. Surreal experience.

And, speaking as someone from the Czech republic, it's getting worse. :negative:

People here have no history of diversity education, and Communist solution to ethnic problems was to restrict the Roma to rural communities / urban ghettos, where they have no chance of supporting themselves now that the welfare system has been thoroughly transformed and privatized capital drifted away. So the deliberately ostracized and increasingly impoverished Roma are getting caught up in petty crime and violence, other people are getting agitated and more than comfortable to let their casual racism known, and populist politicians have turned the question of "non-adaptive persons" into a great electoral pull.

# ¿ Sep 5, 2013 18:59

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

AndreTheGiantBoned posted:

However, playing devil's advocate, gypsies rarely get an education or integrate with the rest of the society. They are overrepresented in what concerns criminal statistics. It is "well known" that according to "their" culture it is okay to steal and cheat non-gypsies, and that their culture is parasitic, etc. Does this already sound racist? I don't know a single south-European person who doesn't think like this to some extent.

People do think like that, indeed, not just in the South (see my previous post in this thread). And they always have an anecdote about how a Roma teenager yelled at them once, and that somehow justifies their prejudices.

But it is very much bigoted. Any group that finds itself on the fringes becomes overrepresented in criminal statistics, and we are talking about a group that has been marshalled around Europe for centuries and found exclusivism and hatred wherever they appeared.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2013 15:28

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

The ideology is pretty clearly stated in the policy list: Hemispherical defense. Which is an euphemism for parallel American and Soviet imperialism keeping each other in check.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2013 00:19

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

German settlers didn't really encroach on anything, they had been invited to colonize the inhospitable borderlands, and first waves of organized German colonization occurred during the High Middle Ages. That doesn't mean there wasn't a huge amount of tensions between the Czechs and Germans of Bohemia throughout the history.

Anti-German sentiments fueled by religious differences rose to prominence in the 15th century, leading to severe reduction of privileges granted to foreign Masters of the Prague University (it was more significant than it sounds), and other events in the build-up to the Hussite revolution. Also, until the 17th century, Czech noble estates were powerful enough to prevent foreign elements from affecting the native language, and a rule that migrant aristocracy had to learn Czech were put into place, together with a privileged administration for Bohemian Christian denominations.

Nevertheless, the failed anti-Habsburg coup of 1618-1619 led to curbing of Bohemian self-governance within the Habsburg monarchy, and to an influx of foreigners who took custody of estates abandoned / seized from rebellious Czechs. German language was also officially put on the same level as Czech, and censorship of literature was introduced to combat seditious ideas of the natives, cities came under German hegemony (Prague in particular became German in nature, and when Czech started founding political parties after 1848, they had to do so in seedy pubs because all high-street establishments were pro-German), and extensive swaths of rural areas largely Germanized and alienated from their customs. Even though ethnic Germans didn't replace ethnic Czechs, the nobility which ran everything from bureaucracy to manufacturing was often ethnically German, and didn't bother to adjust their behaviour to new conditions. This period, which lasted with varying degrees of intensity until the 19th century, has been dubbed as The Dark Ages, but contemporary scholarship argues that this interpretation of history is inluenced by nationalism, and that the violent downfall of Czech culture wasn't nearly as drastic.

The turning point, and renaissance of an independent Czech community, came with the period of National Revival, and the consequent establishment of distinctly Czech linguistic, academic, cultural and political institutions sponsored largely by philanthropists from old Bohemian families that reconnected with their heritage.

tl;dr: The Czechs weren't always an independent or distinct entity, and in fact for long periods of history they were suppressed, and their culture neutered. The modern Czech nationality and culture is to a large extent a reconstruction created by 18-19th century scholars, and spread by politically mobilized activists.

steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Oct 8, 2013

# ¿ Oct 8, 2013 12:51

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Invited by who? I assume the Czech nobility, which could make one question the legitimacy of the invitation in the first place. The other events you describe also seem to fit the word well enough to me, even if it's not straight up American-style swamping of the local population.

By the king.

Also, I should stress that there was a difference between ordinary German settlers who just peacefully lived in their villages and towns, and aristocracy, clergy & bureaucracy that replaced the original owners of feudal titles. The former don't deserve to be shunned, it's the latter who intended to make themselves and their kin into a new ruling class.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2013 13:45

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Boiled Water posted:

That would just be a map of Bhutan.

Though the king of Bhutan is allowed to grow sick sideburns.

# ¿ Oct 10, 2013 14:14

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

AFAIK 2 foreign languages is the standard required for high school education in most countries? Personally I had to pick up a third one for college, but that's not the norm.

On the other hand, most people just forget the less useful language once they pass their exams.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2013 22:58

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Based on the wording, my guess is that it depicts the mode of closest restaurants among households in each square. That is, the chain which is the closest to the greatest number of respondents, wins.

That would make more sense than just counting number of franchises per territory.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2013 21:25

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

What exactly does it mean to be first in Gun Control (Tunisia)? Fewest weapon per capita (I doubt that)? Did they get a constitution lawyer to analyze legislative boundaries on gun ownership in all countries?

Also, I'm pretty sure Moldova doesn't have the highest level of alcohol consumption. It's clearly basd on Wikipedia which changes the top ranking country every few months. Not too long ago, it was the Czech republic. Now it's Moldova. I'd bet that in reality it's one of the many African countries with rampant moonshine industry.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2013 00:03

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Skeleton Jelly posted:

Film and TV probably have a massive role in these overall. Emma seemed to explode out of nowhere around mid-2000s and that's around the same time Rachel and Ross had the kid with a same name in Friends.

I kinda expected Jennifer to undergo a minor resurrection as Friends gained on popularity. Or at least few Rachels / Monicas to appear.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2013 13:50

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Reveilled posted:

"To create security"

They also led the infamous Swiss campaign against mosques and minarets. Still, they are nowhere near the caliber of their supposed Russian or Greek counterparts. The same goes for Poland and UK - wouldn't BNP be a more fitting choice?

# ¿ Oct 27, 2013 13:41

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Ardennes posted:

It wasn't as bad as the Civil War and the aftermath, or the early 1930s famine but it wasn't pretty either and I think "general national malaise" is underselling it. There was a point in the 1990s that even meat consumption dipped way below Soviet levels (if you thought waiting inline was bad...) and life expectancy for men was dipping into the 50s (from around 65 during the 1980s). This was in a country that a year years earlier was not only considered developed but a superpower to be feared

Basically 25-30 years later, life expectancy for men has finally reached to where it was under the Soviets to put the disaster in perspective.

It also probably sheds some light on why Putin is seen as a demi-god.

Not pictured: The first drop that halved Soviet GDP.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2013 11:57

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Riso posted:

While there is significant overlap, the EU is not Europe

That's what they want you to believe :freep:

# ¿ Oct 30, 2013 14:25

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

kustomkarkommando posted:

The guy that came up with this map seems to exist to generate insane ideas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Panarin

Most famous for that loving map... If that's all I need to gain global notoriety and a Wikipedia article, I'd better dig up all those alt-history JPEGs I made when I was 18.

# ¿ Nov 9, 2013 12:51

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Well, Poland and Cyprus are in South Asia, it's a pretty inclusive group.

It makes sense, Poland wouldn't fit into the Catholic Europe, occupied by such zealous nations as France and the Czech Republic.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 15:58

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Well, it's hardly white people's fault that the North America and Europe are further away from the equator than other continents. Mercator is distorting and not to be used as the sole tool in education, but it's hardly biased in the way many people tend to insinuate.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 18:08

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Understandable: They were thrown off by the missing Montenegro and superfluous Nagorno Karabakh.

Not to mention so many of those states are mangled as gently caress - Austria and Slovakia in particular seem like they could use some reconstructive surgery, while Hungary's seen some of her irredentist claims realised.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2013 22:18

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Well, Scandinavia is basically the Dakotas of Europe. You Yanks merge your uninhabited wastelands masquerading as states, and we Europeans will do the same.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2013 00:19

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Even those guys that got Andorra or Luxembourg didn't bother to label Cyprus and Moldova :eurovision:

# ¿ Nov 28, 2013 01:19

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

It's been officially decided that Turkey belongs to Europe :eng101:

# ¿ Nov 30, 2013 16:43

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Uhm, Anatolia is called Asia Minor, not Europe Minor!

(Link?)

Turkey passed Council's accession "test" which includes territorial unity with Europe as one of its cornerstone "hoops" - that's a pretty conclusive, albeit mostly political rather than geographical argument - which should actually be a good thing in a thread called "politically loaded maps". It is made even more persuasive by the fact that Morocco had been rejected on geographical grounds.

There's been a lively debate surrounding this shift in borders of Europe, but I can only name some not widely accessible academic articles such as Alexander B�rgin's "Cosmopolitan Entrapment: The Failed Strategies to Reverse Turkey�s EU Membership Eligibility" "The EU as a �normative� power: how can this be?" by Helene Sjursen, "From Twelve to Twenty-Four? The Challenges to the EC Posed by the Revolutions in Eastern Europe" by Wallace, or "Turkey, Europe, and Paradoxes of Identity: Perspectives on the International Context of Democratization" by Ziya Onis.

# ¿ Nov 30, 2013 17:41

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

computer parts posted:

The interesting thing about these maps is that it seems like province size is a function of how large the country is rather than something like population, so small countries have lots of small provinces rather than just one while large countries have a few large provinces rather than a large subdivision of them (that's probably also because of more bureaucratic layers beneath, but it's interesting to look at).

It's not interesting. The map just incorrectly divides some countries up to minute district / county / prefecture / whatever level, while keeping other countries such as China, the USA, Germany or the UK mostly intact or divided into federal subjects. Those internal divisions just aren't equivalent. Had the creator applied some universal rule, such as "show lowest level self-governing bodies", the map would have been completely different.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2013 10:29

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 18:43

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

On the inter-intelligibility note, there's actually an artificial Slavic language that can be perfectly understood by speakers of virtually all Slavic groups without any prior training or exposure. Suck it, Germanic guys. :smug:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovianski

# ¿ Dec 28, 2013 13:50

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