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Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

esquilax posted:

If you think I missed your point then you missed mine. When confronted with the fact that the vast majority of violence is between ethnicities inside a state rather than between states, the conclusion should not be that the current lines are in the wrong spots, it should be that there are not enough lines.

Or that the lines are in the wrong spots, since if there isn't inter-state violence then the ethnic groups in different states are friendlier than those in the same state, at least in theory. The problem with dividing Africa into even smaller chunks is that each of the nations will be even more under represented in the world stage.

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Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Raenir Salazar posted:

How? More nations mean more votes in the General Assembly, meaning more representation. Their collective interests are already better handled by regional organizations not nation-state governance. I.E: The USSR have 3 Votes from having Belarus and Ukraine as members of the United Nations giving it 2 extra votes.

As having a more 'powerful' nation under any neorealist metric doesn't directly translate to a correlation to greater representation because the only nations whose individual votes matter is the top Five of the UNSC by virtue of their singular nation hood.

Hence the USSR only really have real politcal clout is by virtue of the Warsaw Pact/Comintern and the the Veto at the UNSC. Having *enough votes* in the General Assembly only mattered with decolonialization which shifted the Third World into the USSR's camp.

I actually meant to preface that with a surely but it got mangled on the way, but my train of thought was more that smaller states are much easier for a foreign power (say China) to manipulate. In practice since most of the countries are pretty disunited anyway I guess it doesn't make a difference.

Although really for me it comes down to not wanting to have to memorize the names of 50 more African countries, poo poo's hard enough as it is. :(

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Kegluneq posted:

The Tabula Peutingeriana is a visual version of a more common Roman system of terrestrial navigation, which was to use itineraries - lists of names and their distances from specific points. Where places were in physical space/geography was of much less importance to Roman travellers than how long it would take them to get to particular locations (think of us using pre-satnav route planners, basically the same thing). Unfortunately this meant that the Romans were constrained by the need to build clear road networks wherever they went, and often had precious little knowledge of geography away from these. Julius Caesar famously had to rely on guides to get through northern Italy, his own back yard essentially.

The political significance of that approach to maps ties into Roman attitudes towards foreign lands. Rather than think in terms of areas of land as we do, the Romans focused on specific peoples, based in specific towns connected by specific roads; non-urban western/northern Europe was a total mindfuck for them, even if the prehistoric road system was more developed than is usually realised. When it came to conquests of new lands without towns, the priority was to establish these, so that they could be incorporated into the Roman political system.

Huh. Was that just a Roman thing? This is (or at least I was told it is) a Ptolemaic map, and it's surprisingly accurate geographically given that it's more than two thousand years old.



Although parts of it that should be well understood, such as Greece and Italy, are pretty deformed, so I can definitely see how it isn't a reliable thing on a local scale.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Amused to Death posted:

Sometimes in war you just need to occasionally inflict a few casualties on your allies to prove a point

It's kind of shocking to realise stuff like this actually happened. We're generally given an image of perfect harmony between the anglophone nations in most matters during the 20th century, but in reality the cultures were, and still are, surprisingly different.

Bensa posted:

Content!


The Fergana Valley is a fertile valley in an arid region with multiple countries bordering it. Increased exploitation of water supplies, several enclaves shown on the map, and disputes over rights to pastureland give rise to tensions in the region.



Regarding Uzbekistan and Central Asia:



I'd never been so disturbed when I realised that the Aral Sea is basically ... gone. For all the talk of climate change it still feels like a distant problem, and then I realised that something I'd taken for granted in maps is no longer there, and it all disappeared in just a few decades. It weirds me out whenever I see a map of the region now.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Red_Mage posted:

Yeah. Not to deny Climate Change, but it isn't what shrank the Aral Sea. I think humanity's track record in terms of creating and draining lakes comes out pretty close to even. Not that that is necessarily good for the Earth either way.

LP97S posted:

To play devil's advocate, the Aral Sea was especially destroyed by a series of poorly built canals. It's actually a good case of poorly thought-out geo-engineering for the plan of squeezing out some money (Soviet export of cotton).

Oh I didn't mean to phrase it quite like that, just to draw a parallel between something that has happened and something that will, with a fairly startling example.

And I wouldn't really compare this to drained lakes and marshes; the removal of the Aral Sea was not intentional, it was a side effect through negligence. That water isn't relocated somewhere nearby, it's gone. That area of the world is now a lot drier.

withak posted:

I think American soldiers in England during WW2 were somewhat resented too. They were paid far better than everyone around them and hadn't been living under strict rationing for five years so they seemed like filthy rich, wasteful assholes to the common english person.

This isn't emphasized particularly in the Wikipedia page for the Brisbane conflict so I don't know how much of a factor it was there, but in Britain there was serious resentment of the American Troops' treatment of minorities, and likely resentment from the Americans because of a lack of bother to accommodate their "need for segregation", too. Although to be fair I bet the British soldiers cared a hell of a lot more about salaries than civil rights.

Koramei fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Mar 7, 2013

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
Guys stop trying to analyze that map it's pretty obviously stupid.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

GreenCard78 posted:

You mean the country that still has 10-20% of its population enslaved?

Hold on what now? Is slavery still so open in some areas? Any other countries like that?

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

GreenCard78 posted:

You can google more if you like but that's really just the tip of the iceberg. You know there are still many places with people in bondage today, April 3 the year of our lord 2013?

I guess there's something more disturbing to me about the idea of it being open and legal rather than under a (thin) veil, although you're right that that's silly.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Konstantin posted:

A lot of European-Americans try to make an active effort to understand and preserve their heritage. If you're British or French or whatever you probably know in a general sense where your ancestors came from, but many Americans have no idea where they came from beyond "I'm white, and all my grandparents were born here". People want to know where they came from and want to preserve that heritage, and when you are far away from where your ancestors were, you need to make an active effort to do that. A corollary issue is the fact that it's almost impossible to trace the heritage of an African-American beyond "Well, your ancestor may have been owned by John Smith, who ran a plantation in South Carolina."

Not even just European-Americans, it's pretty true of immigrants the world over. And you're being pretty gracious about it "make an active effort to understand and preserve their heritage" :v:, but expatriates and descendants of immigrants are as a rule ridiculously irrational about everything to do with their home nation. Terrorist groups like the IRA and LTTE are primarily funded by descendents of immigrants rather than people actually having to live with them day to day, for instance.

I say this as an irrational expatriate; I get so much angrier at criticism of my home country now than I did when I was actually living there.

So yeah being an American wouldn't really tangle with being Breton.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

KernelSlanders posted:

We have a split system. The FDA does some things in metric. Liquor is sold in metric volumes (although we of course use different metric sizes than everyone else). The UK is also on a split system. For example their speed limits are in miles per hour.

It's even more split than that in the UK, you do stuff like buy 2 meters of 2"x4". Although I suspect that's the case with many other metric countries too.

edit: wow this thread is moving really fast today wait I just didn't read the next page whoops

and regarding border chat, it can't have been so crazy in places that weren't Europe? land had been getting divided up under colonialism for centuries before Napoleon; or was it a different sort of thing

Koramei fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jun 19, 2013

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

shiffty posted:

If anyone wants me to take pictures of other regions, or other parts of the books, as well as try getting better pictures, just let me know. I'd just scan them but I'm worried of doing more damage to them :ohdear:

I'd be interested in seeing central, south, and southeast Asia if you feel like taking pictures!

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
People not knowing geography outside of their own continent seems to be pretty universal, really.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Elim Garak posted:

Maybe this is unrealistic, but I hope a lot, even if they couldn't find it on a map.

I really wish Central Asia would at least get a brief overview in western education, I think I read less than half a dozen pages about the place before college. We treat "the stans" like they're completely incomprehensible but they're really not.

I guess I could say the same about a lot of the world.

Koramei fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jul 11, 2013

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
Care to elaborate? (I am not involved in international business in any way)

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

XMNN posted:

Identifying anything below about Birmingham is basically beyond me, but helpfully it's largely unnecessary as it all might as well be London.

:mad:

The buildup around southwest Wales is Carfiff and Swansea and then Bristol across the channel from those.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

PittTheElder posted:

Yeah, I assumed that's why the Arab countries swung that way. I am surprised at the level of solidarity though; places like Egypt I would think would have been rather removed from any of the American flailing in the time since 9/11.
I'm sure the chaos 9/11 brought is part of it, but come on, for the Levantine countries and Egypt, anti-Israeli sentiment has got to be the bigger factor.

HookShot posted:

I can't... even... :negative:
Well that guy said it like a complete dick, but the sentiment is reasonable. When people talk about saving the world I have to wonder if they consider the ramifications.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims tend to be pretty ashamed of their Middle Eastern counterparts when they're talking to westerners. You get people in hijabs getting run off the street and stuff.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Grand Fromage posted:

Unfortunately there are no Roman records and the Chinese records haven't been translated, and I don't read Classical Chinese, so I've never seen full texts. Summaries only.

Why has that not been translated that is like the first thing I would translate. How extensive are the texts? I bet there are some goons that could help.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
Have they not even been translated into modern Chinese or scanned out of their original forms then? It's strange to think about how much history is just sitting in the dust somewhere.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

KernelSlanders posted:

the vast majority of human genetic diversity exists within Africa

huh really? This totally makes sense now that I think about it, but I'd never heard that before. Care to elaborate?

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
You should finish reading the post before you want to be snappy like that man.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
The whole map projection argument feels a bit silly to me. It's bad that Europe is lended bias because of a projection incorrectly showing its relative size, sure, but you know what else is bad? Using relative geographic size as a measure for anything except which continent would come out on top if they were all turned into massive dinosaurs. Greenland may actually be smaller than South America, but you know, Bangladesh and Java together are also like a tenth of south America's size, yet they hold the same population. Are they less important because they're smaller? gently caress no. gently caress off. gently caress map projections.

(Also the correct answer is Antarctica because it can turn into a spinning-doom-circle-dinosaur. Asia would just like fall over, it barely has any legs)

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
We had a discussion on Japan earlier in the thread because of a similar map, actually (done by a tourist board or something)- it may seem to do well on the map as a whole, but it's pretty low in terms of developed nations.

And yeah, even less than one in twenty Americans openly saying they don't want to live next to someone of a different race is pretty shameful sounding to me.

Squalid posted:

It doesn't seem right because it depicts what people say about themselves rather than how people actually act, which you might think it portrays if you didn't think very hard.

Personally I want to know how "race" translates in different languages, it being a western concept that probably gets equated with various local ideas that only approximate its western definition. Like I assume indians hates living next to other races so much because race is translated into caste, or maybe caste/religion/language? Whatever it is I doubt their prejudice is about skin color.

I think we can all agree the map is poo poo, but "race" is not just a western concept- in fact, India's one of the world's most prominent examples of people being historically divided according to skin colour.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
That's Western Sahara (which isn't even a proper country), not Mauritania, although UAE is pretty disturbing. Most of what we hear about it is the massive glittering skyscrapers in Dubai, but it is actually an incredibly backwards place.

edit: oh there is another page :doh:

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
That was definitely posted in the thread but I can't seem to find it either. :shobon:

Found it through Google here here though.


edit: oh found it. it was posted in this thread two times actually!

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Badger of Basra posted:

Why do the lights down the center line up in a grid pattern? It doesn't seem to happen further west or in more populated areas, so I'm not really sure what's going on.

'Cause of how it was settled, isn't it? It was all done pretty artificially, compared to in the east and farther west where towns grew up in more natural places. There aren't many natural features to build stuff around in the great planes.

What's that stuff in the middle of Siberia? More mining?

and why is Java so well lit when Bangladesh isn't? I thought it was fairly poor, is it not?

Koramei fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Aug 26, 2013

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
How big are you looking at? You get a poster sized one for free when you subscribe to National Geographic, and they probably have larger sizes available.

Funny that you say Winkel Tripel instead of Robinson without knowing that though. :v:

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Hey well at least they got Rwanda right.

PittTheElder posted:

drat, really? I kinda want that now.

Nat Geo is a pretty good source of maps in general; you'll get a few double-sided poster sized ones every year. They come folded up in magazines though, if you're bothered by that sort of thing, although most of the ones I have hanging up have been there so long that they're all flat now.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
Well knowing what nationalists use to justify these claims that actually seems pretty conservative for Ukraine; I'd have thought they'd be going for "the entirety of Scythia".

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
Why is greenland measured seperately from Denmark and why is greenland so high!?

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Squalid posted:

Why, is there something wrong with those identities? Also African-Americans all over the country self identified as negro or colored prior to the adoption as black/African-American beginning in the 1960s, including many civil rights leaders, the terms were not restricted to the south.

How did this slip past a whole page without comment?! What the hell dude, yes there's something wrong with people self identifying with incredibly derogatory terms, are you kidding?

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Squalid posted:

What is derogatory about those terms? They're a bit old-fashioned yeah, but they were never slurs. Do you think the NAACP should change its name?

QVC Drinking Game posted:

Unless I missed the memo those terms aren't inherently derogatory like n----r is, they're just dated. Yes, it would probably be uncool if you went around talking about "those drat Negroes" but given that the terms still exist in the names of old institutions -- the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the United Negro College Fund -- and no one's raring to change those, it's pretty clear that they're not derogatory in and of themselves.

Words don't have to be derogatory originally to become offensive; negro wasn't a slur 90 years ago, but it has been for quite a long time, and coloured absolutely was used as a method of repression and for talking down to those groups. That people have been conditioned to accept them does not make them acceptable, and it's incredibly sad that they're still in widespread use like that. And there have been movements to rename the NAACP (and probably the UNCF, I don't know) but through a combination of name recognition, reclamation of the word and probably paperwork they haven't really gone anywhere. Yeah they're not words on a level with friend of the family, but "Why, is there something wrong with those identities" as an enclosed statement is just a lovely thing to say. He said what was wrong with them dude.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

AndreTheGiantBoned posted:

I think that you're referring to my post. This is a very interesting thread and I don't want to derail it with bigotry or racism. Is a new thread about this subject worth it?

Considering they just said that the last one didn't last more than a day, no.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
Yeah, Ireland is definitely green. Aside from Afghanistan I don't see anything on that map that's particularly surprising, really. It's funny how contained South Asia is, though; I'd be curious about whether Myanmar would be red or yellow, but I guess it actually doesn't exist :iiam:

Koramei fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Sep 18, 2013

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

See, that would be an ethnic controversy. The racial controversy is about Upper Egypt being inhabited by Nubians, who are dark skinned, and Lower Egypt being inhabited by lighter skinned people, and the question of where the source of the Ancient Egyptian civilization is. At least that's my understanding. I get why African-Americans would want the source to be black African though, given the prevailing narrative of black Africa just being a bunch of savages in loincloths until Europeans showed up in the 19th century, but it only really become a big deal within the context of a society that makes such a big deal about skin color.

It's not even that complex. Some people (plenty of non-black people included) advocate for the Ancient Egyptians having been black. Not some of them, not all of them some of the time. All of them. It's an argument that comes up fairly frequently, and while there are people that put thought into it and still favour it, most of the time you hear it from people who have no loving idea what they're talking about. It isn't really a controversy even 'cause no actual egyptologist takes the view at all.

That said, cultural appropriation and civilizations' historical ties are both pretty important and conversely we shouldn't be acting like the Egyptians had any ties to Europe either. Or like, that any early ancient near-eastern civilization had ties to Europe.

And there also were actually lots of really developed African civilizations so I wish people'd try to refute it by bringing up those instead more often or something.

made of bees posted:

Also, Ancient Egypt existed for about 3000 years and was invaded by foreign nations multiple times, so the question of what ethnicity they were is complicated because they probably weren't one thing throughout their existence. There was at least one Nubian dynasty, who I don't think anyone would argue weren't black, and for the last few centuries of its existence, starting with Alexander the Great, the pharaohs were Macedonian.

Ancient Egyptians are ethnically pretty much the same as modern Egyptians. It was a very cosmopolitan society though, so there was a significant minority of Black-Africans, and the Kushite Pharoahs during their dynasty did plenty to distinguish Egypt themselves.

Koramei fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Oct 3, 2013

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
Did the Islamic conquests have that profound an effect on the other middle eastern populations? I always thought Arab was more of a race than an ethnicity. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong on that. But I know that the conquests didn't have that profound an effect on Egypt. Modern Egyptians aren't identical genetically to their ancient counterparts, but they're similar enough that you can call them the same people.

We know this because Ancient Egyptians left us with thousands of wonderful time capsules containing their DNA, in case you're wondering. Unless I'm completely flubbing this, which I have a tendency to do. It has been a while since I read anything on this topic.

Koramei fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Oct 3, 2013

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
To be fair they did end up with nearly all of the East Indies.

Portugal did pretty well for its self historically, all things considered.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Lawman 0 posted:

So I wanted to get some sorta feel for what the practical level of multilingualism is in Europe.

I wouldn't agree with tri or multilingualism being common in Europe, but it isn't uncommon either, and bilingualism is definitely standard. But that's not really so remarkable; non-rural people are bi or multi lingual in much of/ most of the world. What you should be taking out of this is just that people in the English speaking world are notoriously poo poo at teaching languages. We all lucked into being born with the best language in the universe so we don't need to learn anything else, you know? :911::hf::britain::hf::australia:

Koramei fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Oct 13, 2013

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
Dubbing is definitely important, but I think the educational system's emphasis on language learning is still a bigger factor- I mean, according to the trilingualism map, both Italy and Germany are doing pretty well in that regard despite all the media available in their own languages.

the jizz taxi posted:

For example, I've known several British people who smugly said that there's no need for them to learn any other language because many people speak theirs, and then proceeded to make fun of foreign accents.

Have you actually heard people say that non-facetiously? It's a common joke, but outside of some "look at how dumb Americans are" videos I've never heard it said with a straight face.

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Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
True, and my evidence is really just anecdotal- it was much easier to get around and talk to people in Germany using just English than in like, France and Italy, in my experience; and a couple 'o German old dudes I know really play up the importance of foreign language learning in their education.

Also, not a map (:aaa:), but more from kustomkarkommando's link:



I wish there was a map of that, since I'd really like to see it weighted by country. I'd have never guessed that holidays actually win out over media. It's interesting to see the effect of the internet, too- I'd actually have thought it'd be stronger than it is.

Koramei fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Oct 13, 2013

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