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ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



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Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

Fun Shoe

Runcible Cat posted:

Well, the Nine are all accounted for, technically, but I suppose he might suspect Sauron had dropped one.

Also, how well do the various rings work for someone who's a different species? OK, Gandalf's a Maiar wearing an elven-ring, but would one of the Seven or the Nine work on a hobbit the same way it'd work on a dwarf/human?

Originally the Seven and the Nine weren't made for Dwarves and Men, but were part of the plan to destroy the Elves. There were a bunch of rings made by Sauron or with his direct aid, then Celebrimbor made the Three without Sauron's help.

When he forged the One Ring to bind all the Great Rings to him, he didn't figure the Elves would catch on so fast. Because they all took off and hid their rings, he couldn't backdoor in and corrupt them. So he seized as many as he could (sixteen) and went for Plan B: use them against Men and Dwarves.

I've always wondered if there were more than sixteen rings he could have seized and used, but that's all he managed to grab and the Elves destroyed any others except the Three, which were deemed safe to use after Sauron lost the One.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006



Fun Shoe

Lemniscate Blue posted:

I've always wondered if there were more than sixteen rings he could have seized and used, but that's all he managed to grab and the Elves destroyed any others except the Three, which were deemed safe to use after Sauron lost the One.

I don't know if there were any other great rings that were unaccounted for but Gandalf does mention that there were numerous lesser rings crafted by the Elves that still held power and could be perilous in the wrong hands but were not as deadly as a great ring. Gandalf originally assumed that Bilbo's ring was one of those so called lesser rings.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009





As I said it could have just been a ring from Gondolin

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

Fun Shoe

Ginette Reno posted:

I don't know if there were any other great rings that were unaccounted for but Gandalf does mention that there were numerous lesser rings crafted by the Elves that still held power and could be perilous in the wrong hands but were not as deadly as a great ring. Gandalf originally assumed that Bilbo's ring was one of those so called lesser rings.

Of course, but I mean could the Seven and the Nine have been the Eight and the Ten if Sauron had been able to snag another couple of the non-Three Great Rings on his way out the door. There's nothing supporting that supposition in the text at all, I admit that. Just pondering.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

in general i think the backstory to how the rings were made is kind of weak, like celebrimbor, who repented of the silmaril oath, teams up with this fishy guy to make some really powerful and desirable artifacts and doesn't think it sounds like a bad idea although he should obviously know better. what was the actual original plan? sauron wanted him to make rings for various people but didnt count on that he would make rings of his own, so was he planning to somehow guide him into making the three elf rings himself or something but that didnt work out so he wasnt able to really control them? this part of the story, and the whole occupation of middle earth by sauron except lindon, has always seemed vaguest to me so thats probably why they're making that TV series out of it (are they still making that?)

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!

Doctor Rope

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

I think Tolkien talks about the elven rings at least having specific, not general, powers, or at least spheres of power.

It is also clear that the rungs gave power according to the bearer, though.

This might have something to do with the fact that they created the elven rings independent of Sauron though. They were designed to be the apex of Celebrimbor's craftsmanship. And they were! He didn't know Sauron was going to go and make the One after all. So it is possible Celebrimbor gave the three special touches.

sat on my keys!
Oct 1, 2014


Shibawanko posted:

in general i think the backstory to how the rings were made is kind of weak, like celebrimbor, who repented of the silmaril oath, teams up with this fishy guy to make some really powerful and desirable artifacts and doesn't think it sounds like a bad idea although he should obviously know better. what was the actual original plan? sauron wanted him to make rings for various people but didnt count on that he would make rings of his own, so was he planning to somehow guide him into making the three elf rings himself or something but that didnt work out so he wasnt able to really control them? this part of the story, and the whole occupation of middle earth by sauron except lindon, has always seemed vaguest to me so thats probably why they're making that TV series out of it (are they still making that?)

IIRC Celembrimbor wanted to preserve what was beautiful in middle earth (like Galadriel and Elrond later did) and resist the changes that time inevitably brings. That's why he was vulnerable to Sauron's influence in the first place, because the elves couldn't give up on trying to create Valinor 2.0 where they were running the show.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009





That’s def the vibe you get in the Loth Lorien parts of LOTR

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007


A tyrant that takes advantage of a group’s desire to go back to a bygone age, you say? There seems to be some applicability with modern geopolitics.

Kilson
Jan 16, 2003

I EAT LITTLE CHILDREN FOR BREAKFAST !!11!!1!!!!111!

Ginette Reno posted:


Also they help shield the mind of the wearer from jerks like Sauron, and perhaps like the One Ring possibly aid in reading the minds of others. Galadriel and Elrond seem perceptive, and I believe it's stated that they can perceive Sauron's designs whereas he (lacking the one ring) cannot perceive their own.

In Galadriel's case, I wonder how much of that is really from the ring, and how much is just because she's the oldest, most powerful elf in Middle Earth, who saw the light of the Trees and learned much of perception from Melian.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf can all communicate nonverbally by thought transference even after the One is destroyed. It’s a manifestation of their spiritual power independent of the rings.

Falathrim
May 7, 2007

I could shoot someone if it would make you feel better.


All Elves are capable of "telepathic" communication (ósanwe). It is, however, much more difficult than verbal communication, which is why they developed spoken language in the first place.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009





She couldn’t stay in ME and keep LL going without the ring she had so I’m going to say it was doing a lot.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Haha, after identifying the Ring, Gandalf squatted for three weeks in the Bag End. And Frodo waited the whole summer before leaving.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

Its weird that lorien actually expanded after the war although they lost their "power source"

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Falathrim posted:

All Elves are capable of "telepathic" communication (ósanwe). It is, however, much more difficult than verbal communication, which is why they developed spoken language in the first place.

Huh, never heard about that before.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





I really need to get up on the Lost Road.

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.


Falathrim posted:

All Elves are capable of "telepathic" communication (ósanwe). It is, however, much more difficult than verbal communication, which is why they developed spoken language in the first place.

The one legit delightful scene I will defend to the death in the Hobbit movies is the White Council scene where Saruman is ranting about the peril of the Necromancer or some such and Gandalf and Galadriel completely tune him out to telepathically flirt with each other.

Seriously, they literally duck the volume on Christopher Lee's monologue down to a barely-inaudible murmur in the background while G & G have a little telepathic meet-cute, it is delightful.

Falathrim
May 7, 2007

I could shoot someone if it would make you feel better.


ChubbyChecker posted:

Huh, never heard about that before.

The Ósanwe-kenta is a late writing that didn't make it into HoME. It was published a while back in Vinyar Tengwar issue 39. The general idea is that ósanwe is difficult in Arda Marred, and so in order to pull it off you need to strengthen your attempt at thought-transmission with some combination of affinity, urgency, and/or authority. Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf all exist in a default state of authority over others, so ósanwe will come easier to them than, say, Lindir. The Ainur are proficient at ósanwe. Hypothetically, all Incarnates are capable of ósanwe, but except for the Elves they exist in such a fallen state that they can't pull it off.

Since the text isn't widely available, I took some really lovely scans with my $10 scanner some 20 years ago for some friends. Much later, I posted them on Tumblr, because that was a thing once upon a time. If you want to give it a read (and strain your eyes in the process), I tracked down the post here.

It's fully possible that a higher-quality source it out there somewhere by this point, but I haven't ever had a need to track it down myself given that I have the original on my bookshelf.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Falathrim posted:

The Ósanwe-kenta is a late writing that didn't make it into HoME. It was published a while back in Vinyar Tengwar issue 39. The general idea is that ósanwe is difficult in Arda Marred, and so in order to pull it off you need to strengthen your attempt at thought-transmission with some combination of affinity, urgency, and/or authority. Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf all exist in a default state of authority over others, so ósanwe will come easier to them than, say, Lindir. The Ainur are proficient at ósanwe. Hypothetically, all Incarnates are capable of ósanwe, but except for the Elves they exist in such a fallen state that they can't pull it off.

Since the text isn't widely available, I took some really lovely scans with my $10 scanner some 20 years ago for some friends. Much later, I posted them on Tumblr, because that was a thing once upon a time. If you want to give it a read (and strain your eyes in the process), I tracked down the post here.

It's fully possible that a higher-quality source it out there somewhere by this point, but I haven't ever had a need to track it down myself given that I have the original on my bookshelf.

haha, thanks!

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Falathrim posted:

The Ósanwe-kenta is a late writing that didn't make it into HoME. It was published a while back in Vinyar Tengwar issue 39. The general idea is that ósanwe is difficult in Arda Marred, and so in order to pull it off you need to strengthen your attempt at thought-transmission with some combination of affinity, urgency, and/or authority. Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf all exist in a default state of authority over others, so ósanwe will come easier to them than, say, Lindir. The Ainur are proficient at ósanwe. Hypothetically, all Incarnates are capable of ósanwe, but except for the Elves they exist in such a fallen state that they can't pull it off.

Since the text isn't widely available, I took some really lovely scans with my $10 scanner some 20 years ago for some friends. Much later, I posted them on Tumblr, because that was a thing once upon a time. If you want to give it a read (and strain your eyes in the process), I tracked down the post here.

It's fully possible that a higher-quality source it out there somewhere by this point, but I haven't ever had a need to track it down myself given that I have the original on my bookshelf.

Holy poo poo this is a good read, thanks for posting it.

These super-indulgent Tolkien snippets where he's just reveling in the intricacies of his world with no expectation of anyone ever reading it, they're some of the most rewarding of all somehow. It's incredibly dense, almost impenetrable, but if you methodically push your way through it and chew the meaning out of every inch what you get is something like the richest chocolate cake you've ever had — every single word has value and meaning loaded onto it. The economy of the prose is off the charts, every paragraph has like major pieces of profoundness in it. Like " Ohhhh" every sentence or two.

Also just the breadth of topics this one little piece covers. Screw all that tired talk about whether LotR is "allegory"; this is him musing on all aspects of the human condition and the lessons of history, through the lens of his own mythos. It touches on things like propaganda and fascism, war and terrorism, sex and relationships, criminality and rehabilitation and recidivism, and of course lots of bits about how we converse and communicate using forms of shorthand not unlike the Darmok style of pre-shared allusions. There's enough in here about the terrific power of language as a weapon and as a shield to last for days of digestion.

It's these kinds of things that really make Tolkien worth studying to the deepest possible level of detail. It takes a ton of effort but the ROI is huge.

Data Graham fucked around with this message at 18:17 on May 30, 2020

Daikloktos
Jan 1, 2020



Data Graham posted:

Holy poo poo this is a good read, thanks for posting it.

These super-indulgent Tolkien snippets where he's just reveling in the intricacies of his world with no expectation of anyone ever reading it, they're some of the most rewarding of all somehow. It's incredibly dense, almost impenetrable, but if you methodically push your way through it and chew the meaning out of every inch what you get is something like the richest chocolate cake you've ever had — every single word has value and meaning loaded onto it. The economy of the prose is off the charts, every paragraph has like major pieces of profoundness in it. Like " Ohhhh" every sentence or two.

Also just the breadth of topics this one little piece covers. Screw all that tired talk about whether LotR is "allegory"; this is him musing on all aspects of the human condition and the lessons of history, through the lens of his own mythos. It touches on things like propaganda and fascism, war and terrorism, sex and relationships, criminality and rehabilitation and recidivism, and of course lots of bits about how we converse and communicate using forms of shorthand not unlike the Darmok style of pre-shared allusions. There's enough in here about the terrific power of language as a weapon and as a shield to last for days of digestion.

It's these kinds of things that really make Tolkien worth studying to the deepest possible level of detail. It takes a ton of effort but the ROI is huge.
This is the best thread

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





My mistake, I meant: “löl”

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013



Data Graham posted:

My mistake, I meant: “löl”

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002





lôl

Ogmius815
Aug 25, 2005


I know this thread is on like, another level from us rubes who have never even read HoME, but can I still ask random questions about the Silmarillion here?

For some reason today, out of nowhere, I was thinking about the Túrin story, and I started to wonder why Morgoth hated Húrin so much. Húrin was just a man, and in the end he wasn’t even one who amounted to much, since Morgoth managed to destroy him completely. But it seemed like Morgoth was genuinely afraid of Húrin. Why?

For reference, I’ve read the versions of this story that appear in the published Silmarillion and in unfinished tales, but not the stand alone volume published in 2007.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Wasn’t it because it was prophecied that Húrin would (directly or indirectly via his son) be Morgoth’s downfall?

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Plus Hurin dissed him to his face iirc and Melkor is super petty

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Data Graham posted:

Wasn’t it because it was prophecied that Húrin would (directly or indirectly via his son) be Morgoth’s downfall?

There were two prophecies linking that family and Morgoth. In Children of Hurin, chapter The Battle of Unnumbered Tears:

'Not long now can Gondolin remain hidden, and being discovered it must fall,' said Turgon.
'Yet if it stands only a little while,' said Huor, 'then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men.'


This turned out to be about Eärendil, who was descended from both of them.

The other one was about Dagor Dagorath: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath where Túrin fights Morgoth.

Blood Boils posted:

Plus Hurin dissed him to his face iirc and Melkor is super petty

Yeah, that played a part too.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.



It was long spoken in the councils of the elves that "From the bands of Men shall come one with might in his arms, like that against the lowly spider, who lifts ten times its size; and he shall bear great power, and also, great responsibility." Morgoth knew about this due to the elves he had seized and enslaved in the mines, and he feared the power of the spider due to his near miss with Ungoliant.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




I've heard that he entangles brigands like gnats.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Blood Boils posted:

Plus Hurin dissed him to his face iirc and Melkor is super petty

He actively makes Morgoth lose his temper multiple times in one conversation which is pretty funny

Data Graham posted:

Wasn’t it because it was prophecied that Húrin would (directly or indirectly via his son) be Morgoth’s downfall?

This did happen, but in the later versions of the story at least it isn’t portrayed as motivating Morgoth. He wants Hurin alive to find Gondolin, and when Hurin refuses to serve him for any reason, he decides to torture the poo poo out of his family and make him watch, just to prove he wasn’t kidding about his claim to be lord of the world.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



I had forgotten how many queers there were in the Middle Earth. They are everywhere, just like Watson's ejaculations. Even some trees are queer.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

i just finished shadow of mordor and i'm continuing with shadow of war. of course it's all butchered from the source material but i think i actually do prefer this portrayal to the one in the movies, at least it has a cool portrayal of celebrimbor and actually references things from the silmarillion

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




Shibawanko posted:

i just finished shadow of mordor and i'm continuing with shadow of war. of course it's all butchered from the source material but i think i actually do prefer this portrayal to the one in the movies, at least it has a cool portrayal of celebrimbor and actually references things from the silmarillion
I never got into Shadow of War, but Shadow of Mordor feels a lot like an in-universe legend? Like, a campfire story very loosely based on real events that gets embellished again and again with each retelling.

Edit: "A Ranger, possessed by a spirit of vengeance, killing orcs by the hundreds and freeing their human slaves" sounds exactly like the kind of story that enslaved Men would tell.

PMush Perfect fucked around with this message at 16:36 on May 31, 2020

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Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

Oh my, shadow of war doesnt start off well, i can live with sexy shelob but when a gondorian captain said "thats an order" like in a call of duty game i laughed

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