|
So I learned something hilarious re: Tolkien's writings that I want to share with you. You see that book cover? The title translates to "Tolkien and Black Magic". Isn't it amazing?  But Åke Ohlmarks isn't just a random weirdo, he is the one who first translated LotR into Swedish - and his translation was to be the only one available in Sweden all the way until 2005! So what happened for Ohlmarks to present Tolkien as some sort of Satanist? Let's rewind for a bit......back to 1959 when he got the job to translate LotR into Swedish. Ohlmarks was 48 years old at the time and a highly renowned scholar and translator, who had already translated the Edda into Swedish and who would later be asked to do the same with the complete Shakespeare and the Qu'ran. Ohlmarks had done a lot of work researching Germanic and Old Swedish literature and language as well as the history of religion and taught for decades in Iceland and Germany (where he was a bit too friendly with the Nazi regime). He was a highly intelligent and educated man, proficient in several languages and knowledgeable in a wide array of topics. He also was a genuine fan of Tolkien's work, even going so far as to cosplay as Bombur one time! I do believe that he was stoked to get to translate the attempt to construct an alternate mythical past for England, by an English professor who shared his passion for many scholarly areas no less who also drew heavily from ancient European myths and legends as well as his own Catholicism. But, alas - while I can't speak for Ohlmarks' other translations, most people agree that he bungled his LotR translation up something fierce. Ohlmarks was a proponent of the school of translation that saw its task less as sticking to the original words and meaning, but more as re-interpreting the story on their own terms. Which would be a debatable topic, but Ohlmarks way overdid it by inserting his own stuff pretty much everywhere into the story. The most brazen stuff is turning Legolas into a dad as well as making Merry the one to kill the Witch-King for no apparent reason, but there were many smaller examples interspersed into his translation, stuff like this: https://white-eagle.tumblr.com/post/52471397607/tolkien-and-the-black-magic posted:Tolkien: “Night slowly passed. The sun rose. The hobbits rose rather later.” But even worse, he seemed completely disinterested in the etymology and toponomy thought up by Tolkien, going with whatever sounded good to his ear: Wikipedia posted:Dubious translations include Vattnadal "Water-dale" for Rivendell, apparently by way of taking riven for river, while Esgaroth becomes Snigelöv "Snail-leavings", apparently by association with French escargot, "snail". The Ent Quickbeam becomes Snabba solstrålen',' "Swift Sunbeam", apparently taking beam in the sense of "beam of light", ignoring the fact that all Ents have "arboreal" names. And he was sloppy to boot - for example he translated "Isengard" in no less than four different ways (Isengard, Isengård, Isendor and Isendal), once even having two different translations appear in the same paragraph. No wonder that Tolkien, who knew enough Swedish to gauge the quality of the translation, didn't like it. In fact, he hated Ohlmarks' translation (as well as the Dutch translation which apparently also wasn't good) so much that he wrote a "Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings" in 1966/67 where he put up clear guidelines for future translations. Tolkien also disliked Ohlmarks personally, mentioning in his letters that Tolkien posted:[t]he impression remains, nonetheless, that Dr. Ohlmarks is a conceited person, less competent than charming Max Schuchart [=the Dutch translator], though he thinks much better of himself. The animosity between Tolkien and Ohlmarks apparently ran so deep that when the Silmarillion was published in 1977, Christopher Tolkien would grant the rights for a translation into Swedish only under the condition that Ohlmarks would have nothing to do with it. Ohlmarks in turn was furious about that and perceived it as a great injustice. This, coupled with him slowly going more and more off the deep end (from at least the 1970s onwards, he became increasingly fascinated by stuff like astrology, ghosts and the prophecies of Nostradamus) led to the creation of this great book cover. He wrote the book in 1982 after a fire in his house, which he was convinced had been started by radical Tolkien fans who wanted to kill him. So what's the deets about Tolkien and black magic? Well, Ohlmarks was 100% certain that the good professor was actually a Nazi occultist and that his fans were even worse. Did you know that "Saruman" is actually a portmanteau of "SA", "man" and the German "Ruhm" (=glory)? Or that both the founder of the Ku Klux Klan and the father of a prominent member of the Swedish Tolkien society were dentists, which just goes to show that the two groups are really one and the same? The introduction of the book posted:It has come to attention that, especially during the last years, the multitude of Tolkien societies (thousands in America, and not a few in Sweden) have degenerated to a kind of KU-KLUX-KLAN with a worship of open violence, crude orgies, alcohol and drug abuse. Murders have been commited, recurrent cases of assaults, kidnapping and desecrations of churches and sacraments. But these weren't the only bombshell revelations laid bare by Ohlmarks. He also explains in great detail how only "The Hobbit" and the beginning parts of LotR could have been written by "Old Man Tolkien", as he only ever calls him. Why? Because Ohlmarks thought they were poo poo, which in turn is proof enough for him that the rest was actually written by C.S. Lewis, because Lewis liked them and you are only allowed to like things you have written yourself apparently? Anyway, Ohlmarks died in 1984, long before the LotR movies led to interest in the books surging again, eventually culminating in a new translation by 2004/05. It's probably a good thing he never knew anything about that, because we can be certain that he would have hated it. His book on Tolkien and black magic is super hard to find nowadays; if you can read Swedish, then outside of paying outrageous sums on the old books market you can still find and read it in the Swedish National Library. System Metternich fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Mar 2, 2021 |
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 15:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 05:03 |
|
|
That's some good Tolkien lore.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 15:38
|
|
|
adhuin posted:It was great in a very unbalanced and experimental kind of way. It's was contemporary with the early Magic, so there was no exact blueprint on how to make a ccg yet. Are you sure? Other than the "5 wizards" part that sounds like the gameplay of the Decipher one which I definitely played the poo poo out of. What's the actual name of the early 90s one?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 15:42
|
|
|
stuff of legends indeed, just look at the bazongas on that muppet!
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 15:43
|
|
|
System Metternich posted:So I learned something hilarious re: Tolkien's writings that I want to share with you. amazing
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 15:50
|
|
|
Shibawanko posted:stuff of legends indeed, just look at the bazongas on that muppet! iirc the voice actor wanted them to be huge
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 15:51
|
|
|
Zopotantor posted:I'd watch it. I'd also watch a movie version of Bored of the Rings. Hell, combine the two. Miss Piggy was born to play Eorache. WoodrowSkillson posted:Yall are overthinking this and basically any person from antiquity onwards would prefer to be groomed vs not groomed so the default should always be that yes they carried some soap and grooming materials with them. Obviously you can't carry 4 months worth in a pack but they would be as clean as possible. Like I said, bet you Sam does. 6 months worth of toiletries for Mr Frodo. System Metternich posted:
How come you bastards never invite me to the fun stuff? Runcible Cat fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Mar 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 15:57
|
|
|
System Metternich posted:Anyway, Ohlmarks died in 1984, long before the LotR movies led to interest in the books surging again, Craziest thing about this is it means he missed the time when satanist/white nationalist/Tolkien nerd actually did burn down a bunch of churches in Norway in the early 90s
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 16:04
|
|
|
Regular orgies would be one thing, but that they're crude!
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 16:06
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STnUggab0ic
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:19
|
|
|
The first norwegian translation of the books are also notoriously bad (the first book was called the Black Riders for example) and they were more or less erased from existence.  And that has to be the most dapper depiction of the nazguhl ever. Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Mar 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:54
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:Are you sure? Other than the "5 wizards" part that sounds like the gameplay of the Decipher one which I definitely played the poo poo out of. What's the actual name of the early 90s one? Middle earth the Wizard (METW) has drawn paintings and was made by ICE that also published rpgs in the 90:s Decipher one has pictures from the movies. The basic concept is same, except you are escorting Frodo and the One ring through 9 pre-chosen sites. It is much more streamlined and polished game. In METW traveling is freeform. You can go to Recruit Blue mountain Dwarves faction at the blue mountains or go to the lonely mountain to search for the Arkenstone. You can even have party split up to travel to different locations.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 21:21
|
|
|
adhuin posted:Middle earth the Wizard (METW) has drawn paintings and was made by ICE that also published rpgs in the 90:s yeah now that I can google it it's definitely the cards I remember. Neato. I always thought that the shadow pool mechanic from the Decipher one (and from METW, I guess) is one of the best and most balanced mechanics from any game I've played, especially as it interacts with hand management. It creates so many decisions that always feel meaningful.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 22:59
|
|
|
Worth noting on the Magic crossover front is that last I'd seen they haven't announced which license they're basing it on - movies, Netflix, or books. In the past (as someone pointed out upthread) recent games have been on the movie license, and the Netflix one presumably has similarly transferrable rights. So it's hard to tell how direct the license will be yet. But they've said it's a full set (contrasted with the WH40K crossover which is a few premade Commander decks) so it'll be like 300 cards.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 04:59
|
|
|
What if the same ring-related enchantment that messes with time in Lothlórien also causes the Galadhrim to grow out hair and fingernails really slowly? And then they pass over the Sea to the Undying Lands and they get really unkempt? And some other non-Lorien elves have to have an uncomfortable conversation with them about their personal grooming, like telling a teenager that they have to put on deodorant? Also I bet you can get a really fuckin awesome haircut in the house of Elrond. And also a great full body spa treatment. Something where you might be out in the trackless wastes and another wanderer might see your pellucid peau and be like "Lo! The beacon of Imladris!"
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 06:59
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:What if the same ring-related enchantment that messes with time in Lothlórien also causes the Galadhrim to grow out hair and fingernails really slowly? And then they pass over the Sea to the Undying Lands and they get really unkempt? If anything, the Undying Lands are likely to experience time even more slowly than Lothlorien does.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 07:23
|
|
|
Yeah, the rings were an attempt to artificially do to time what naturally happens in Valinor. I do like the mental image of a completely unhinged Celeborn though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 15:01
|
|
|
Where do Elves get their food from? Is there a whole class of offscreen Elf farmers?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:21
|
|
|
I always wondered how a race of immortal hotties ever manages to decline in numbers. If humans were immortal super-models we'd have every habitable latitude of the planet packed like one of those shantytowns in Manila. Have they not glands? Do they not gently caress?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:33
|
|
|
Why wouldn't there be? Elves have to eat and their implied populations are plenty large enough to require large scale agriculture. Knowing Tolkien he probably envisioned a whole society filled with Cincinnatus type soldier/farmers that go from enforcing the Siege of Angband to tending their crops.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:36
|
|
|
The elves probably get all of their food from like tree nuts and wild mushrooms and foraging and poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:39
|
|
|
WoodrowSkillson posted:Why wouldn't there be? Elves have to eat and their implied populations are plenty large enough to require large scale agriculture. Knowing Tolkien he probably envisioned a whole society filled with Cincinnatus type soldier/farmers that go from enforcing the Siege of Angband to tending their crops. They also know how to make magic bread that feeds a grown man for an entire day so they probably don’t need many farmers. Imagined posted:I always wondered how a race of immortal hotties ever manages to decline in numbers. If humans were immortal super-models we'd have every habitable latitude of the planet packed like one of those shantytowns in Manila. Have they not glands? Do they not gently caress? Half the Noldorian princes are in long distance relationships with their wives back in Valinor and they don’t seem too upset about not knowing when or even if they’ll ever meet again, so it wouldn’t be a shock if they went the way of the Ents.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:39
|
|
|
Imagined posted:I always wondered how a race of immortal hotties ever manages to decline in numbers. If humans were immortal super-models we'd have every habitable latitude of the planet packed like one of those shantytowns in Manila. Have they not glands? Do they not gently caress? There's a lot of discussion of this upthread! But it may be that they just stop being fertile after, like, forty years, just like humans.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:44
|
|
|
Imagined posted:I always wondered how a race of immortal hotties ever manages to decline in numbers. If humans were immortal super-models we'd have every habitable latitude of the planet packed like one of those shantytowns in Manila. Have they not glands? Do they not gently caress? It the last part. Tolkien filled the Elves with every single one of his weird catholic hangups on sex. They literally get horny when they get married, gently caress, and then once they sire children never feel horny again. That's why there is only like 1 or 2 instances of them remarrying when a spouse dies. To me in order to not constantly think about how repressed Tolkien was, I just figure that as being designed by Eru in the Music, they have low fertility specifically to help prevent overpopulation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:45
|
|
|
Action George posted:They also know how to make magic bread that feeds a grown man for an entire day so they probably don’t need many farmers. That's a Lorien specific thing though is it not? I don't recall Elrond giving the Hobbits any Lembas to bring with them. Maybe it's tied up specifically with Galadriel's own magic + her ring somehow. As for why there aren't a lot of Elves....would you have kids if you knew your idiot son would be an idiot adult son forever? You'd have to do the elven equivalent of going out for a pack of cigarettes which in Middle Earth terms would I guess be fleeing to Valinor and leaving your dumb son in Middle Earth.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:46
|
|
|
Omnomnomnivore posted:Where do Elves get their food from? Is there a whole class of offscreen Elf farmers? The appendix to the Children of Hurin book has an excerpt from an incompleted poem version of the story that describes the farmlands of the Elves of Nargothrond.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:48
|
|
|
WoodrowSkillson posted:It the last part. Tolkien filled the Elves with every single one of his weird catholic hangups on sex. They literally get horny when they get married, gently caress, and then once they sire children never feel horny again. That's why there is only like 1 or 2 instances of them remarrying when a spouse dies. So Feanor’s spirit of fire was just being horny?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:49
|
|
|
Elves have agriculture but it probably bears little resemblance to Mannish farming.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:50
|
|
|
Action George posted:So Feanor’s spirit of fire was just being horny? He has 7 kids when everyone else has 1-2 and yeah literally thats and indication of how unusual he was.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 16:52
|
|
|
Imagined posted:I always wondered how a race of immortal hotties ever manages to decline in numbers. If humans were immortal super-models we'd have every habitable latitude of the planet packed like one of those shantytowns in Manila. Have they not glands? Do they not gently caress? theyre immortal so any mistake they make stays with them forever so they dont really get married and make children at the drop of a hat
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 17:03
|
|
|
When everyone's a hottie, no one's a hottie.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 17:05
|
|
|
Fëanor and Nerdanel were the only Elves to ever have seven kids
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 17:10
|
|
|
Ginette Reno posted:That's a Lorien specific thing though is it not? I don't recall Elrond giving the Hobbits any Lembas to bring with them. Maybe it's tied up specifically with Galadriel's own magic + her ring somehow. Elrond gave Gandalf some miruvor for emergencies, "the cordial of Imladris". Maybe there's some kind of appellation controlee thing going on with the Elvish regional specialities.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 17:29
|
|
|
Just seems weird to imagine an elf out there with like, a plow. For that matter, are there Dwarf farmers or are they always trading metal and gems for food with nearby men? Or are they farming mushrooms down underground? I know economics wasn't Tolkien's strong suit and the stories are nearly exclusively about a bunch of nobles but you start to wonder.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 17:36
|
|
|
Omnomnomnivore posted:Just seems weird to imagine an elf out there with like, a plow. It's specifically mentioned in the Hobbit that the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain traded goods and services with men for food as they never bothered to grow it themselves. I would assume most Dwarven communities do the same.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 17:44
|
|
|
Dwarves fish underground like Smeagol
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 17:50
|
|
|
The Dwarves were not exclusively restricted to the mountain halls though, situation depending could also have had farms. The Blue Mountains have not been in danger for millennia and the only people there are Dwarves and Elves, so someone is farming. Tolkien just never really elaborated on it but its clear both the Elves and Dwarves are relatively numerous peoples in the many hundreds of thousands depending on region and timeframe. The hosts involved in the battles of Beleriand are obviously huge, as was the war of the Last Alliance. You can't build a mountain fortress that spans leagues with some small community that can be fed exclusively via trade. Rivendell would still have a lot of people in it, its not just Elrond and 10 elves. Otherwise Sauron would have just overthrown the north via force long ago by just sending every orc in the misty mountains there at once. That implies everything a society needs like farmers and other normal jobs. With Elves the thing would be that they would not be defined by only that job, again I would point to Cincinnatus for a real world mythological figure that would probably be what Tolkien envisioned for the "working elf." They would not be demeaned by labor, but would instead celebrate it and exceed in it, treating it like a craft among any other.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 18:01
|
|
|
Gats Akimbo posted:Elrond gave Gandalf some miruvor for emergencies, "the cordial of Imladris". Maybe there's some kind of appellation controlee thing going on with the Elvish regional specialities. Was the miruvor ever used? I cannot remember.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 18:21
|
|
|
Sarern posted:Was the miruvor ever used? I cannot remember. They chug it all before they even get to Moria, lol E: I was wrong actually. They drink once in the snowstorm on Caradhras, once more after they come down from that, a third time right after they get trapped in Moria by the tentacles, and then...never again I guess? Gandalf was carrying it. Probably down at the foundations of the earth by now skasion fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Mar 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 18:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 05:03 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/bromanconsul/status/1080943404454895616
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 19:33
|
|