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WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005






euphronius was the snape kills dumbledore guy

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Antifa Poltergeist
Jun 3, 2004

"We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"





The ring is at the same time a magic arefact, a power enhancer, a phylactery and a macguffin , much like weeding rings.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!



Morbid Hound

all of the above said,



BigRed0427 posted:

. If its a spoiler and explained later dont anwser,

One thing that might be worth keeping in mind as you read LotR for the first time that a lot of stuff won't necessarily be explained at all in the text. E.g., if a character shouts out "Elbereth!" or sings a song about "Earendil" you might not get explanations of who or what those characters are anywhere in the entire rest of the book. All those characters are "real" in the sense that Tolkien had written who and what they were, but none of those explanations were published for about forty years after LotR itself first came out -- not until the Silmarillion was published posthumously.

Tolkien did it that way because he was a weird author writing a weird book that was half his own private hallucination and half deep scholarship. Think of it as reading outsider art, not reading a polished novel, and it'll make more sense in some ways.

I really envy anyone reading the Lord of the Rings for the first time, especially as a first introduction to fantasy fiction. When I read it for the first time as a child it was like a third eye opening in my forehead. I don't know if that kind of revelatory impact is still possible given how saturated our culture has become with fantasy tropes, but I hope it is.

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





Hieronymous Alloy posted:

all of the above said,


One thing that might be worth keeping in mind as you read LotR for the first time that a lot of stuff won't necessarily be explained at all in the text. E.g., if a character shouts out "Elbereth!" or sings a song about "Earendil" you might not get explanations of who or what those characters are anywhere in the entire rest of the book. All those characters are "real" in the sense that Tolkien had written who and what they were, but none of those explanations were published for about forty years after LotR itself first came out -- not until the Silmarillion was published posthumously.

Tolkien did it that way because he was a weird author writing a weird book that was half his own private hallucination and half deep scholarship. Think of it as reading outsider art, not reading a polished novel, and it'll make more sense in some ways.

I really envy anyone reading the Lord of the Rings for the first time, especially as a first introduction to fantasy fiction. When I read it for the first time as a child it was like a third eye opening in my forehead. I don't know if that kind of revelatory impact is still possible given how saturated our culture has become with fantasy tropes, but I hope it is.

Tolkien is very different from other fantasy writers in this respect. The true nature of Gandalf, for example, would be a plot point in another book. In LOTR it is never actually confirmed and without the larger context of the Silmarillion it is basically impossible to understand. He's a wizard who does wizard things at first, but as the story goes on you realize that no, he's more than that, but ultimately the main story never hinges on Gandalf's power, so there is no real plot reason you'd need to understand it. Pretty much all the lore is like this, whereas in most modern fantasy most lore is plot relevant.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




sweet geek swag posted:

Tolkien is very different from other fantasy writers in this respect. The true nature of Gandalf, for example, would be a plot point in another book. In LOTR it is never actually confirmed and without the larger context of the Silmarillion it is basically impossible to understand. He's a wizard who does wizard things at first, but as the story goes on you realize that no, he's more than that, but ultimately the main story never hinges on Gandalf's power, so there is no real plot reason you'd need to understand it. Pretty much all the lore is like this, whereas in most modern fantasy most lore is plot relevant.

This is why Tolkien's stuff is so engaging imo - and where so much fantasy fails. He gives all of these glimpses at these extensive structures of history and metaphysics but they're all roads that run over the horizon in different directions, down paths that the story doesn't follow, so we can only imagine where that road leads. That's why there are hundreds of thousands of hours of youtube fan theories about this stuff.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





sweet geek swag posted:

Tolkien is very different from other fantasy writers in this respect. The true nature of Gandalf, for example, would be a plot point in another book. In LOTR it is never actually confirmed and without the larger context of the Silmarillion it is basically impossible to understand. He's a wizard who does wizard things at first, but as the story goes on you realize that no, he's more than that, but ultimately the main story never hinges on Gandalf's power, so there is no real plot reason you'd need to understand it. Pretty much all the lore is like this, whereas in most modern fantasy most lore is plot relevant.

This is also why the "prequel" impulse feels so cargo-culty in some ways: a modern author might throw in an unexplained reference like "OromŽ" somewhere as an epic simile or something just because it sounds cool, and then go back years later (when it's time to pay the bills again) and say "Gee you know what, I wish I knew who OromŽ was" and will write an entire new book that provides all that backstory and completely changes what it means when you run across "OromŽ" in the original text again.

(Or, you know, "Anakin Skywalker")

Trouble is, that isn't what Tolkien did, he had OromŽ all hashed out for decades before LotR was even a glimmer in his eye, and the reference when he tossed it in had all the weight of backstory already behind it in his head. But modern readers might well assume that the Silmarillion stuff was a "prequel" in the modern sense, i.e. written after the fact and intended to cash in on unexplained and barely glimpsed bits and pieces in the main story. It's rare that an actual prequel is as satisfying as that though; and more often than not all you get out of a prequel is "oh so that's how Han Solo met Chewbacca, ok "

Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon




Tolkien knew that the important thing in his narrative was the story he wanted to tell. He wasn't polluted by disgusting worldly concepts like deadlines or a profit motive.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






A lot of lore is explained in the LoTR poems and songs. Which is one reason I guess no one remembers reading about it.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Southpaugh posted:

Tolkien knew that the important thing in his narrative was the story he wanted to tell. He wasn't polluted by disgusting worldly concepts like deadlines or a profit motive.

Come on, I'm trying my best to avoid implying that.

Omnomnomnivore
Nov 14, 2010

Don't let his title fool 'ya, I'm the smart one.

sweet geek swag posted:

Tolkien is very different from other fantasy writers in this respect. The true nature of Gandalf, for example, would be a plot point in another book. In LOTR it is never actually confirmed and without the larger context of the Silmarillion it is basically impossible to understand. He's a wizard who does wizard things at first, but as the story goes on you realize that no, he's more than that, but ultimately the main story never hinges on Gandalf's power, so there is no real plot reason you'd need to understand it. Pretty much all the lore is like this, whereas in most modern fantasy most lore is plot relevant.

There's exactly one bit in Minas Tirith where Pippin wonders, for the first time, exactly what Gandalf is, and he never gets an answer.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






He wonders on the horse ride to MT.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!



Morbid Hound

Southpaugh posted:

Tolkien knew that the important thing in his narrative was the story he wanted to tell. He wasn't polluted by disgusting worldly concepts like deadlines or a profit motive.

This but unironically http://file770.com/tolkien-an-unexpected-sainthood/

Omnomnomnivore
Nov 14, 2010

Don't let his title fool 'ya, I'm the smart one.

euphronius posted:

He wonders on the horse ride to MT.

The chapter title is "Minas Tirith" so I am technically correct .

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






Lol fair enough .

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016


Southpaugh posted:

Tolkien knew that the important thing in his narrative was the story he wanted to tell. He wasn't polluted by disgusting worldly concepts like deadlines or a profit motive.

The good people at Allen and Unwin penning increasingly polite and frantic deadline reminders as JRRT gravely ponders future tense second person verbs

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

Omnomnomnivore posted:

The chapter title is "Minas Tirith" so I am technically correct .

The appropriate smiley.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Tree Bucket posted:

The good people at Allen and Unwin penning increasingly polite and frantic deadline reminders as JRRT gravely ponders future tense second person verbs
I saw the documentary about his writing process on the extra material on the extended cut and according to that he would start the entire writing process over again if he discovered a mistake he'd did. No matter how far he'd gotten.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






Thatís not true at all.

Zopotantor
Feb 24, 2013

...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...


Before we had word processing, there were these things called "manuscripts". As in, "hand written". With an implement called a "pen". The only way to correct an error was to "strike out" the text and to write a new version in the remaining space (if you had enough foresight to leave any, otherwise you would have to "paste" a new piece of paper over it using "glue").
Or something like that, anyway.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





The more I think about it though, I canít tell what is more psychotic: reusing your pencilled first draft sheets by writing over them in pen (and amending stuff as you go) to save paper in wartime, or 20-30 years later hunkering over your dadís 3x-recycled sheets to decode the faded pencil text underlying the pen version like the fuckin Dead Sea Scrolls and publishing 12 volumes of it

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





One thing Tolkien would do is write a draft in pencil, then write a second draft over the first in pen. Drove Christopher crazy when he was trying to do the History of Middle-Earth.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





I mean ... yes, that's ...

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




I can say with certainty that the most psychotic option is #3, namely creating a youtube channel containing thousands of hours of content wherein you argue with other youtube channels about the lore and canon of those papers.

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





Data Graham posted:

I mean ... yes, that's ...

Sorry about that, I hadn't checked the thread for a while and didn't see your post!

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





It's cool, I thought maybe you were doing a really oblique gag about overwriting my post in pen

Zopotantor
Feb 24, 2013

...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...


Data Graham posted:

It's cool, I thought maybe you were doing a really oblique gag about overwriting my post in pen

Now waiting for sweet geek swag to strike out their post and replace it with a new version.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Mods change name to Fair Copy ďCĒ

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





Zopotantor posted:

Now waiting for sweet geek swag to strike out their post and replace it with a new version.

Huh, I wish I'd thought of this I mean you won't manipulate me that easily!

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.


I'm the note scribbled in the margin that says "There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 sweet geek swags ever existed.'

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





GimpInBlack posted:

I'm the note scribbled in the margin that says "There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 sweet geek swags ever existed.'

That's bullshit. The version of me from the Book of Lost Tales were there are hundreds of me is much better.

BigRed0427
Mar 22, 2007

There's no one I'd rather be than me.



CommonShore posted:

This is why Tolkien's stuff is so engaging imo - and where so much fantasy fails. He gives all of these glimpses at these extensive structures of history and metaphysics but they're all roads that run over the horizon in different directions, down paths that the story doesn't follow, so we can only imagine where that road leads. That's why there are hundreds of thousands of hours of youtube fan theories about this stuff.

So basically, the world's lore is secondary to to what our character are doing right now.

Granted, we still get lore dumps here. I'm so far up to the Hobbits arriving at Brandybuck Hall and we get a complete history of the Hall, it's villages and the Brandybuck family. And now were leaving Brandy Buck and moving into the Old Woods with the creepy trees.

I think my favorite aspect so far is the actual "Threat" Of Sauron and his forces are still very distant, vague, and spoken in hushed tones but everyone in the know knows something super bad is about to happen. So far our only representation of him are the Black Riders who we don't see a lot of. We are not getting Frodo coming into the Shire one day and seeing Orks killing everyone and burning the place down. Just Gandalf showing up one day and saying "Hey Frodo, that ring of yours? We gotta get rid of it. Head to Rivendale and we will figure out our plan there."

BigRed0427 fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Apr 5, 2021

Omnomnomnivore
Nov 14, 2010

Don't let his title fool 'ya, I'm the smart one.

Soviet TV version of Lord of the Rings rediscovered after 30 years

First episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vquKyNdgH3s

They left Tom Bomabdil in! Anyone here understand Russian?

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?



Whoa, neat. Should double-feature this with the Finnish tv LOTR

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man





DACK FAYDEN
Feb 25, 2013

Bear Witness

Based on only those two screenshots, having not yet clicked, this version must own bones cause that's a rockin' Bombadil

thumper57
Feb 26, 2004



Bright blue his jacket is not

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012



tiny brain: Durin's Bane has wings
huge brain: Durin's Bane has no wings
galaxy brain: Durin's Bane does not appear on-screen

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005






Universe Brain: Durin's Bane has wings, but did not use them in the confrontation with the Fellowship

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Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Even if he had wings he probably didn't get much exercise living underground

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