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ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



"Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company."

Gandalf clearly had wings.

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Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016


ChubbyChecker posted:

"Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company."

Gandalf clearly had wings.

"Fly, you fools!"

The whole fellowship was winged. Wingéd.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Tree Bucket posted:

"Fly, you fools!"

The whole fellowship was winged. Wingéd.

One does not simply walk into Mordor.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






ChubbyChecker posted:

"Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company."

Gandalf clearly had wings.

He was pretty fly, for a white wizard.

Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon




Does anyone have a good essay on tolkien and class in the lord of the rings? My google fu is failing me.

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007


Was just reading a Chuck Klosterman book and came across this quote which feels extremely relevant to this thread. This is in a paragraph about the enduring appeal of Jane Austen, in the larger context of speculating about which currently obscure author working today will end up living forever along the lines of Franz Kafka, or Herman Melville:

But What If We're Wrong? posted:

A book become popular because of its text, but it’s the subtext that makes it live forever. For the true obsessive, whatever an author doesn’t explicitly explain ends up becoming everything that matters most (and since it’s inevitably the obsessives who keep art alive, they make the rules).

Imagined fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Apr 6, 2021

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






I’ve swung the other way and have been focusing on just what is on LoTR

He’s right tho in general. Modern marketing is a big part of that too

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

Ask me about my dream Frasier episode where Frasier and Bulldog oil their heads and then rub them together. It's definitely not a fetish of mine, I swear!

Hey guys have you ever thought about how

Merry is of the Brandybucks, the people who colonized the Buckland over the water, the frontier people, and he ends up falling in with the Rohirrim, the "new" barbarian-esque people on the marches of the civilized lands.

And Pippin is a blue-blooded Took, of the oldest lineage possible in the Shire, and he ends up falling into service with the Steward of Gondor and taking on ancient responsibilities and carrying out ancient ceremonies.

Almost as if Tolkien did that on purpose.

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

Ask me about my dream Frasier episode where Frasier and Bulldog oil their heads and then rub them together. It's definitely not a fetish of mine, I swear!

The only way it could be more on the nose would be if Banazir Galbasi the gardener was somehow entranced by and obsessed with some race of slowly cultivating gardener people who lived in tune with plants.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

I mean Tolkien was ultra conservative even by the standard of his time, so 'everyone in their anointed place' would be a fairly deliberate aspect of his fantasy society happy ending

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



brow is destiny

webmeister
Jan 31, 2007

The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm.

Pippin is the absolute definition of a failson. He fucks up at every turn, makes things harder for everyone around him, fails upward due to Gandalf's nepotism, and is ultimately rewarded with a job that he's manifestly unqualified for

YaketySass
Jan 15, 2019

Blind Idiot Dog


It's not explicit in the text but Merry, Pippin and Fatty Bolger for sure had a podcast.

Drakyn
Dec 26, 2012



Shibawanko posted:

brow is destiny
Pretty good post/avatar combo there.

Omnomnomnivore
Nov 14, 2010

Don't let his title fool 'ya, I'm the smart one.

Was Tolkien into hiking and camping? He obviously knew a lot of botany, but I'm not sure how much first-hand experience he had with sleeping outdoors for extended periods like his characters. There was what he did in the war, of course, but I'm wondering if he dragged his kids out into the wood to build character.

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


Omnomnomnivore posted:

Was Tolkien into hiking and camping? He obviously knew a lot of botany, but I'm not sure how much first-hand experience he had with sleeping outdoors for extended periods like his characters. There was what he did in the war, of course, but I'm wondering if he dragged his kids out into the wood to build character.

Don't know for sure but rambling was definitely a thing for his social circle - Lewis' Out of the Silent Planet has the hero getting kidnapped to Mars by a mad physicist because he's out hiking and hasn't told anyone where he's going so he's unlikely to be missed.

Omnomnomnivore
Nov 14, 2010

Don't let his title fool 'ya, I'm the smart one.

Gats Akimbo posted:

Don't know for sure but rambling was definitely a thing for his social circle - Lewis' Out of the Silent Planet has the hero getting kidnapped to Mars by a mad physicist because he's out hiking and hasn't told anyone where he's going so he's unlikely to be missed.

I read that book a long time ago and forgot most of it. I think the main character was a caricature of Tolkien, obsessed with languages? Also some bit about a spherical spaceship where it was clear Lewis didn't quite understand how gravity works.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Gats Akimbo posted:

Don't know for sure but rambling was definitely a thing for his social circle - Lewis' Out of the Silent Planet has the hero getting kidnapped to Mars by a mad physicist because he's out hiking and hasn't told anyone where he's going so he's unlikely to be missed.

They both walked. Lewis was a relatively serious hiker, whereas JRRT liked to walk slowly, stop whenever, and chat as he went. There’s a funny bit in one of the essays in Tolkien: A Celebration about how Lewis and his brother invited a friend of theirs (the author of the essay) to walk with Tolkien so that they wouldn’t have to dawdle with him.

Omnomnomnivore posted:

I read that book a long time ago and forgot most of it. I think the main character was a caricature of Tolkien, obsessed with languages? Also some bit about a spherical spaceship where it was clear Lewis didn't quite understand how gravity works.

The Space trilogy is all very much indifferent to scientific accuracy and its spaceships should be thought of as somewhere between Wells’ cavorite moon-ship in First Men in the Moon which conveniently effaces all details of how it actually works, and Lindsay’s interstellar rocket in Voyage to Arcturus which tells science to go gently caress itself and runs on sheer philosophical principle.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Shibawanko posted:

brow is destiny

isn't it the other way round? your destiny is dictated by your brow

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





I am Uhtred son of Uhtred. DESTINY IS BROW

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Omnomnomnivore posted:

Was Tolkien into hiking and camping? He obviously knew a lot of botany, but I'm not sure how much first-hand experience he had with sleeping outdoors for extended periods like his characters. There was what he did in the war, of course, but I'm wondering if he dragged his kids out into the wood to build character.

skasion posted:

They both walked. Lewis was a relatively serious hiker, whereas JRRT liked to walk slowly, stop whenever, and chat as he went. There’s a funny bit in one of the essays in Tolkien: A Celebration about how Lewis and his brother invited a friend of theirs (the author of the essay) to walk with Tolkien so that they wouldn’t have to dawdle with him.

didn't tolkien take a hiking trip over the alps before the war? and much of it was put in the books

ChubbyChecker fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Apr 7, 2021

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



Blood Boils posted:

I mean Tolkien was ultra conservative even by the standard of his time, so 'everyone in their anointed place' would be a fairly deliberate aspect of his fantasy society happy ending

Consider though that the story begins with Frodo becoming Mr Baggins of Bag End; and the story ends with his servant becoming Mr Gamgee of Bag End. That's not exactly Sam's anointed place!

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


ChubbyChecker posted:

didn't tolkien take a hiking trip over the alps before the war? and much of was put in the books

He was invited on a walking tour of the Swiss Alps in his teens, yeah. The approach to Rivendell in The Hobbit is supposed to be inspired by that. I don’t know that he ever did anything like that with his own family — my assumption would be that by the time he was wealthy enough to be taking anyone on European trips, he was also old and all his kids had grown up.

I haven’t read anything about that Alps trip besides what you can get in the History of the Hobbit/Middle-earth books, so I could be wrong, but I would guess also that they would have been more likely staying in lodges than camping outdoors. Not exactly roughing it.

skasion fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Apr 7, 2021

webmeister
Jan 31, 2007

The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm.

Trin Tragula posted:

Consider though that the story begins with Frodo becoming Mr Baggins of Bag End; and the story ends with his servant becoming Mr Gamgee of Bag End. That's not exactly Sam's anointed place!

He’s One Of The Good Ones

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


Omnomnomnivore posted:

I read that book a long time ago and forgot most of it. I think the main character was a caricature of Tolkien, obsessed with languages? Also some bit about a spherical spaceship where it was clear Lewis didn't quite understand how gravity works.

I've heard it claimed that Ransom's based on Tolkien in the first of the series and Charles Williams in the other two, and I'm perfectly willing to believe it since he's adorable in the first one (he runs away and hides from Martians until he hears one talking and immediately leaps out of hiding because OMG ALIENS HAVE LANGUAGE MUST LEARN) and an utter gibbering prick in the others.

You could technobabble your way round how Weston's spaceship's internal gravity works by claiming it's black-hole-powered or uses a focused gravity wibblegenerator if you were so inclined, I guess, but:

skasion posted:

The Space trilogy is all very much indifferent to scientific accuracy and its spaceships should be thought of as somewhere between Wells’ cavorite moon-ship in First Men in the Moon which conveniently effaces all details of how it actually works, and Lindsay’s interstellar rocket in Voyage to Arcturus which tells science to go gently caress itself and runs on sheer philosophical principle.

... that. The science is very much not the point as far as Lewis is concerned.

Gats Akimbo fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Apr 7, 2021

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Trin Tragula posted:

Consider though that the story begins with Frodo becoming Mr Baggins of Bag End; and the story ends with his servant becoming Mr Gamgee of Bag End. That's not exactly Sam's anointed place!

It is tho, it's his reward for his loyalty to his master

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





Blood Boils posted:

It is tho, it's his reward for his loyalty to his master

Yeah a hardworking member of the lower class becoming a part of the gentrified middle class isn't some rejection of class structures, it is the lie upon which modern class systems are built.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


He becomes an elected mayor rather than a position of any hereditary significance.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Sam’s most important kid gets genuine hereditary dignity. Also the most important honor, responsibility for the transmission of the text. But she had elf magic on her so no surprise really

Pham Nuwen
Oct 30, 2010




Blood Boils posted:

I mean Tolkien was ultra conservative even by the standard of his time, so 'everyone in their anointed place' would be a fairly deliberate aspect of his fantasy society happy ending


Trin Tragula posted:

Consider though that the story begins with Frodo becoming Mr Baggins of Bag End; and the story ends with his servant becoming Mr Gamgee of Bag End. That's not exactly Sam's anointed place!

I'm pretty sure a person can be anointed, but a place can only be appointed. Hopefully JRRT would have approved of this small pedantry.

Sax Solo
Feb 17, 2011





Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Hey guys have you ever thought about how

Aw gently caress. I've always thought it was strange how Merry and Pippin get sent to places that don't match their temperament. Pippin is willful and stupid; seems like a good fit for Rohan. Merry is clever so seems like a good fit for Minas Tirith. I had some theory that Gandalf was trying to put them out of their comfort zones so they could grow, and/or give each king a dose of what they're missing. But this proper place stuff makes more sense, dammit.

YaketySass
Jan 15, 2019

Blind Idiot Dog


Pippin's the more curious one so he's better for exposition and Gondor needs quite a lot of it.

Though Merry having to deal with Denethor would have been cool.

Zopotantor
Feb 24, 2013

...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...


Gats Akimbo posted:

Don't know for sure but rambling was definitely a thing for his social circle - Lewis' Out of the Silent Planet has the hero getting kidnapped to Mars by a mad physicist because he's out hiking and hasn't told anyone where he's going so he's unlikely to be missed.

Fun fact about that book, Lewis and Tolkien had an agreement that one of them should write a story about space travel and the other one about time travel. Lewis finished his space travel story, but Tolkien characteristically abandoned his time travel story before it was finished. It's in The Lost Road (HoME vol. 5).

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Hey guys have you ever thought about how

Merry is of the Brandybucks, the people who colonized the Buckland over the water, the frontier people, and he ends up falling in with the Rohirrim, the "new" barbarian-esque people on the marches of the civilized lands.

And Pippin is a blue-blooded Took, of the oldest lineage possible in the Shire, and he ends up falling into service with the Steward of Gondor and taking on ancient responsibilities and carrying out ancient ceremonies.

Almost as if Tolkien did that on purpose.

Incidentally, the Tooks are upstarts. The Brandybucks are descended from the original Thains, Bucca of the Marish and the Oldbuck clan. There’s a never-told story behind how the last Oldbuck Thain decided he should leave the country and set up his own next door.

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


YaketySass posted:

Pippin's the more curious one so he's better for exposition and Gondor needs quite a lot of it.

Though Merry having to deal with Denethor would have been cool.

Pippin was also enough of a dimwit to steal a palantir off a wizard and look into it, which is how come Gandalf hauled him off to Gondor in the first place. Storywise you'd probably have to come up with a much more random reason to get Gandalf to take Merry instead.

Zopotantor posted:

Fun fact about that book, Lewis and Tolkien had an agreement that one of them should write a story about space travel and the other one about time travel. Lewis finished his space travel story, but Tolkien characteristically abandoned his time travel story before it was finished. It's in The Lost Road (HoME vol. 5).

That's neat. I must get around to reading the later HoMEs...

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





Zopotantor posted:

Fun fact about that book, Lewis and Tolkien had an agreement that one of them should write a story about space travel and the other one about time travel. Lewis finished his space travel story, but Tolkien characteristically abandoned his time travel story before it was finished. It's in The Lost Road (HoME vol. 5).

You left out the best part. Tolkien's time travel story was actually the inspiration for all the fall of Numenor stuff in the legendarium.

Zopotantor
Feb 24, 2013

...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...


Gats Akimbo posted:

Pippin was also enough of a dimwit to steal a palantir off a wizard and look into it, which is how come Gandalf hauled him off to Gondor in the first place. Storywise you'd probably have to come up with a much more random reason to get Gandalf to take Merry instead.


That's neat. I must get around to reading the later HoMEs...

Volume five is one of the earlier ones.

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


Zopotantor posted:

Volume five is one of the earlier ones.

Sorry, I got bogged down in Lays of Beleriand...

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

sassassin posted:

He becomes an elected mayor rather than a position of any hereditary significance.

He inherits the Baggins estate. I'm not saying Sam is a bad person, he better than most but is still a man of his fictional times

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Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

skasion posted:

Incidentally, the Tooks are upstarts. The Brandybucks are descended from the original Thains, Bucca of the Marish and the Oldbuck clan. There’s a never-told story behind how the last Oldbuck Thain decided he should leave the country and set up his own next door.

"With blackjack! And hookers!"

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