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Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



fred flintstone is in hell

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Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

Ask me about my dream Frasier episode where Frasier and Bulldog oil their heads and then rub them together. It's definitely not a fetish of mine, I swear!

That's why you do missionary work, because it loving sucks how all these really nice people who just happen to haven't heard the good news are going to Hell and you'd like to help them escape their inevitable faultless fate.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Shibawanko posted:

fred flintstone is in hell

yes, but not because he hadn't heard about christ, but for making a sapient creature his toilet

Drakyn
Dec 26, 2012



ChubbyChecker posted:

yes, but not because he hadn't heard about christ, but for making a sapient creature his toilet

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Shibawanko posted:

that always struck me as ridiculous and childish. why would some random greek guy be in hell just because he was born in BC

The concept of hell has changed a lot over time, it wasn't always universally a place of punishment. Sometimes it's just where all the dead go, regardless of how they behaved in life

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007


The concept of Satan himself changed drastically during the early years of the Christian church, when the church needed a way to literally demonize its competition. There's a great book on the subject called 'The Origin of Satan' by Elaine Pagels that was a formative influence on the young Imagined.

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

Ask me about my dream Frasier episode where Frasier and Bulldog oil their heads and then rub them together. It's definitely not a fetish of mine, I swear!

Gandalf was kind of experimenting with hobbits, wasn't he? Seeing how far they could go mentally and physically? It's a bit dark when you think about how he's an immortal superbeing and he had this big fascination with the capabilities and capacities of these pretty innocuous little creatures.

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019




Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Gandalf was kind of experimenting with hobbits, wasn't he? Seeing how far they could go mentally and physically? It's a bit dark when you think about how he's an immortal superbeing and he had this big fascination with the capabilities and capacities of these pretty innocuous little creatures.

Experimenting with an eye toward their betterment and ability to defend themselves against the Shadow, yes. It's important to remember that one of Gandalf's defining traits is his compassion.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


Does it say anywhere why Gandalf took an interest in hobbits in the first place?

its the weed isn't it

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



HIJK posted:

Does it say anywhere why Gandalf took an interest in hobbits in the first place?

its the weed isn't it

their brows looked fair from his pov

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.


Okay, I know the "let's post YouTube videos of Tolkien reading his own work" was a few pages back but I was just looking at the image of the record sleeve in this video and damned if it isn't the most adorable story:

George Sayer had borrowed the only typescript of the Lord of the Rings in 1952, when Tolkien was struggling to find a publisher and was generally very depressed about its prospects and despairing over whether it was in fact any good. Sayer asked when Tolkien would be at home so he could return it, since you do not trust the only extant copy of your friend's magnum opus to the Royal Mail, to which Tolkien replied that he would be on his own "and perhaps even rather lonely" that August--so Sayer invited him out to his home in Malvern for a little vacation.

While Tolkien was there, Sayer brought out an early personal tape recorder--which Tolkien had apparently never seen such a thing before--and Tolkien promptly decided, jokingly, to exorcise the thing by reciting the Lord's Prayer in Gothic at it. Apparently delighted to hear it played back, Tolkien asked if he could record some snippets from Rings to hear how they sounded to other people. Hearing his own work played back for him actually restored Tolkien's confidence in the quality of the work, and at Sayer's suggestion he decided to give publishing one last try by sending the book to an old student of his who happened to now work in publishing. That student was Rayner Unwin, and the rest is history.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

I've been thinking recently about authorship and the modern publishing world, and I'm almost profoundly grateful that JRR Tolkien was long dead before the internet came along, and that Christopher Tolkien never had much, if any, presence on the web. I don't think a work like Lord of the Rings would make it today. It's almost outsider art, but the artist is a master in a different field - linguistics.
I'm glad Tolkien didn't have a twitter. I don't think it would be a friendly place to a thoughtful but firm old-school Catholic like him.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

Hey Sid Do you believe in UFOs, astral projections, mental telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, spirit photography, telekinetic movement, full trance mediums, the Loch Ness monster, and the theory of Atlantis?

Fun Shoe

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Gandalf was kind of experimenting with hobbits, wasn't he? Seeing how far they could go mentally and physically? It's a bit dark when you think about how he's an immortal superbeing and he had this big fascination with the capabilities and capacities of these pretty innocuous little creatures.

I think there's also an element of Sauron/Smaug etc not having any idea how Hobbits behave or what their sensibilities are. A man bearing the ring into Mordor would have been overwhelmed by the corruption of it long before Frodo was. Hobbits don't give a poo poo about power or wealth or any of that, so the Ring's evil is slower to work on them. There's no way Sauron could have reckoned with that because he has no experience with Hobbits.

System Metternich
Feb 28, 2010

But what did he mean by that?



HIJK posted:

Does it say anywhere why Gandalf took an interest in hobbits in the first place?

its the weed isn't it

In Unfinished Tales, Gandalf recounts to Frodo:

quote:

And then there was the Shire-folk. I began to have a warm place in my heart for them in the Long Winter, which none of you can remember. They were very hard put to it then: one of the worst pinches they have been in, dying of cold, and starving in the dreadful dearth that followed. But that was the time to see their courage, and their pity one for another. It was by their pity as much as by their tough uncomplaining courage that they survived. I wanted them still to survive.

The Long Winter would be TA 2758/59, so about 260 years before the events of LotR. By 2851 Gandalf was already deep in the pipe weed, as he is shown to smoke it during a session of the White Council (which annoys Saruman to no end). But beyond the weed I'd wager that Gandalf simply *liked* the Shire and sporadically hung out there for some R&R, far away from all the fair brows and grand speeches and evil machinations that his workday normally consisted of. He also didn't go there all that regularly; between his last visit to the Shire and him knocking at Bilbo's door were twenty years where he apparently never came near the region.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



GimpInBlack posted:

Okay, I know the "let's post YouTube videos of Tolkien reading his own work" was a few pages back but I was just looking at the image of the record sleeve in this video and damned if it isn't the most adorable story:

George Sayer had borrowed the only typescript of the Lord of the Rings in 1952, when Tolkien was struggling to find a publisher and was generally very depressed about its prospects and despairing over whether it was in fact any good. Sayer asked when Tolkien would be at home so he could return it, since you do not trust the only extant copy of your friend's magnum opus to the Royal Mail, to which Tolkien replied that he would be on his own "and perhaps even rather lonely" that August--so Sayer invited him out to his home in Malvern for a little vacation.

While Tolkien was there, Sayer brought out an early personal tape recorder--which Tolkien had apparently never seen such a thing before--and Tolkien promptly decided, jokingly, to exorcise the thing by reciting the Lord's Prayer in Gothic at it. Apparently delighted to hear it played back, Tolkien asked if he could record some snippets from Rings to hear how they sounded to other people. Hearing his own work played back for him actually restored Tolkien's confidence in the quality of the work, and at Sayer's suggestion he decided to give publishing one last try by sending the book to an old student of his who happened to now work in publishing. That student was Rayner Unwin, and the rest is history.



hah nice

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

Ask me about my dream Frasier episode where Frasier and Bulldog oil their heads and then rub them together. It's definitely not a fetish of mine, I swear!

Anshu posted:

Experimenting with an eye toward their betterment and ability to defend themselves against the Shadow, yes. It's important to remember that one of Gandalf's defining traits is his compassion.

That still sounds like a scientist of the Mad variety deciding that he wants to create Battle Hamsters.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4kFQaTDJAk

Skyl3lazer
Aug 27, 2007

[Dooting Stealthily]





Shibawanko posted:

fred flintstone is in hell

good snipe

Oracle
Oct 9, 2004




Skyl3lazer posted:

good snipe

Not if the Mormons baptized him posthumously. Then he's on Kolob.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



GimpInBlack posted:

Okay, I know the "let's post YouTube videos of Tolkien reading his own work" was a few pages back but I was just looking at the image of the record sleeve in this video and damned if it isn't the most adorable story:

George Sayer had borrowed the only typescript of the Lord of the Rings in 1952, when Tolkien was struggling to find a publisher and was generally very depressed about its prospects and despairing over whether it was in fact any good. Sayer asked when Tolkien would be at home so he could return it, since you do not trust the only extant copy of your friend's magnum opus to the Royal Mail, to which Tolkien replied that he would be on his own "and perhaps even rather lonely" that August--so Sayer invited him out to his home in Malvern for a little vacation.

While Tolkien was there, Sayer brought out an early personal tape recorder--which Tolkien had apparently never seen such a thing before--and Tolkien promptly decided, jokingly, to exorcise the thing by reciting the Lord's Prayer in Gothic at it. Apparently delighted to hear it played back, Tolkien asked if he could record some snippets from Rings to hear how they sounded to other people. Hearing his own work played back for him actually restored Tolkien's confidence in the quality of the work, and at Sayer's suggestion he decided to give publishing one last try by sending the book to an old student of his who happened to now work in publishing. That student was Rayner Unwin, and the rest is history.



At the risk of being boring, this is probably a load of old toss from Sayer. Sayer had been in the Army, he knew very well how to take a nice little story and make a few improvements for the sake of a thumping good dit. It only really makes sense if LotR is the first fiction that Tolkien's ever published, and the first time he's had any contact with Allen & Unwin, but neither of those things are true.

It's true, sort of, that it took a long time to get LotR published; but he had a long-standing relationship with Allen & Unwin, who published The Hobbit in 1937 (on 10-year-old Rayner Unwin's recommendation), then gave Tolkien a push into trying something a bit different by turning Roverandom down, and also published Farmer Giles of Ham in 1947, at which point he said "about that sequel to The Hobbit..."

The main sticking point over LotR was that Tolkien kept trying to get them to publish some of his Elder Days stuff at the same time; Tolkien eventually tried his luck with Collins in 1950, and Collins's attitude was "sure, we'll publish it if we can edit it". That predictably went nowhere and Tolkien went back to Allen & Unwin in 1952 (very possibly after a conversation with Sayer about it), by which time the adult Rayner was now working for the family business and Tolkien was over the idea of getting the Elder Days stories published alongside LotR.

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





A huge part of Tolkien's inability to get his elf history published was that he didn't finish it. His publisher was completely uninterested in publishing a text they hadn't seen. Lord of the Rings was a successful enough book that if he had presented them with a finished text of the Silmarillion in the immediate aftermath of its publication, something might have been worked out. But instead he went down the rabbit hole of going back and fixing it.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


ChubbyChecker posted:

their brows looked fair from his pov

hobbit brows shining like searchlights at noon

System Metternich posted:

In Unfinished Tales, Gandalf recounts to Frodo:


The Long Winter would be TA 2758/59, so about 260 years before the events of LotR. By 2851 Gandalf was already deep in the pipe weed, as he is shown to smoke it during a session of the White Council (which annoys Saruman to no end). But beyond the weed I'd wager that Gandalf simply *liked* the Shire and sporadically hung out there for some R&R, far away from all the fair brows and grand speeches and evil machinations that his workday normally consisted of. He also didn't go there all that regularly; between his last visit to the Shire and him knocking at Bilbo's door were twenty years where he apparently never came near the region.

wholesome

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


Ginette Reno posted:

Hobbits don't give a poo poo about power or wealth or any of that, so the Ring's evil is slower to work on them.

Cobblers. Lobelia Sackville-Baggins was desperate for Bag End and those spoons. The miller's boy sells out to the big folk at the earliest opportunity. You can't read the memoirs of some extremely privileged young toffs (and one adoring servant) and declare all hobbits free of earthly desire.

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





sassassin posted:

Cobblers. Lobelia Sackville-Baggins was desperate for Bag End and those spoons. The miller's boy sells out to the big folk at the earliest opportunity. You can't read the memoirs of some extremely privileged young toffs (and one adoring servant) and declare all hobbits free of earthly desire.

True, but Lobelia's greed is really small potatoes compared to say a Human king's or an elf Lord's, never mind Saruman or Sauron. The limitations on it means the ring has a lot less to work with, and it will take long time for it to work. Even Gollum's ring induced fantasies were delightfully uncomplicated.

Pham Nuwen
Oct 30, 2010




Bunch of browcels in here complaining that they'll never get with any lissome elf-maids if their brow isn't sufficiently fair...


Anyway I realized the other day that "Peregrin" means "wandering", and that Merry and Peregrin initially considered their journey just a fun ramble... a merry peregrin, if you will.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


sweet geek swag posted:

True, but Lobelia's greed is really small potatoes compared to say a Human king's or an elf Lord's, never mind Saruman or Sauron.

The greed of the average human or orc would be too.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010


College Slice


this was linked in the GBS thread on the soviet lotr and I've listened to it like six times in two days please help it's too good

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Pham Nuwen posted:

Bunch of browcels in here complaining that they'll never get with any lissome elf-maids if their brow isn't sufficiently fair...


Anyway I realized the other day that "Peregrin" means "wandering", and that Merry and Peregrin initially considered their journey just a fun ramble... a merry peregrin, if you will.

I heard this on an etymology podcast in the last day or two: it's basically "crosses" + "acres" and it's closely cognate with "Pilgrim."

Now what's the etymology of "Meriadoc"....

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.


CommonShore posted:

I heard this on an etymology podcast in the last day or two: it's basically "crosses" + "acres" and it's closely cognate with "Pilgrim."

Now what's the etymology of "Meriadoc"....

It's Brittonic, but I'm not sure the exact translation--a quick google turns up mostly a bunch of "baby name meaning" websites which... I doubt their etymological research. Tolkien Gateway says it means "Great Lord," but a couple of the other unsourced sites gave translations "head of the sea" or...

"Sea Brow."

I think we all know which one is correct.

(Really, though, in Merry's case, Tolkien just wanted a name that sounded appropriately Hobbitish but could be shortened to a nickname suggesting his cheerful, happy-go-lucky demeanor.)

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



i identify with the hobbits because im like a minor rural aristocrat who enjoys nature walks

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Merry + Madoc

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Sea Brow seems appropriate for an elf-like Fallohide hobbit such as Merry.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





So I'm trying to think of how to express the differences between the LOTR novels and the films in terms of their focus on characters. Gandalf's death is, for me, the supreme illustrative example. He dies in the book and we're given a line about everyone weeping. I don't recall it getting much focus at all. He dies in the film and Frodo gets a big NOOOOO and even after that scene everyone is still wracked with grief, even Boromir.

It's not like the characters are irrelevant in the novel. There's plenty of drama and some development. But like, among the general criticisms you always hear, stuff like Aragorn not wanting to be king in the films is brought up as a big change. It gives him a sort of arc not present in the books.

So the book aren't uninterested in the characters but at the same time it feels like the movies are trying to do more with them or give them more of a focus.

Does that make sense? I actually prefer the books but when I try to explain that the novels somehow do less with the characters yet are better for it, it sounds contradictory.

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016


NikkolasKing posted:

I actually prefer the books but when I try to explain that the novels somehow do less with the characters yet are better for it, it sounds contradictory.

Partly, the books express a lot about everyone's mental and emotional states through the landscapes they're in. I think. Like when the fellowship finally escapes Moria after Gandalf's death, the sky and slopes around them are described using the words "dark... shadow... faint... nothing... empty."

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Which, fwiw, I thought the movie did a hell of a good job expressing with the bleak gray rocky landscape and the silent camera sweeping around, giving you time to take it all in and let your eyes adjust to the light and realize there's no color in it at all.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


For how descriptive Tolkien can get, the guy was downright frugal with words when it helped emphasize a point. Brevity increasing the impact. Gandalf's fall is so sudden that the abruptness and ensuing emptiness of their surroundings hits way harder than pages upon pages of grief.

The film has the benefit of visual language to convey multiple emotions without words. It plays to the strengths of its medium to describe the devastating incident that just happened. Both the book and the film hit on the same chord using different tools and they both excel.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Arcsquad12 posted:

For how descriptive Tolkien can get, the guy was downright frugal with words when it helped emphasize a point. Brevity increasing the impact. Gandalf's fall is so sudden that the abruptness and ensuing emptiness of their surroundings hits way harder than pages upon pages of grief.

Book Six, Chapter 6: Many Partings posted:

and Arwen Evenstar remained also, and she said farewell to her brethren. None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.

That one always gets me.

YaketySass
Jan 15, 2019

Blind Idiot Dog


CommonShore posted:

I heard this on an etymology podcast in the last day or two: it's basically "crosses" + "acres" and it's closely cognate with "Pilgrim."

Now what's the etymology of "Meriadoc"....

The Lord of the Rings - Appendix F, On Translation posted:

Since the survival of traces of the older language of the Stoors and the Bree-men resembled the survival of Celtic elements in England, I have sometimes imitated the latter in my translation. Thus Bree, Combe (Coomb), Archet, and Chetwood are modelled on relics of British nomenclature, chosen according to sense: bree ‘hill’ chet ‘wood’. But only one personal name has been altered in this way. Meriadoc was chosen to fit the fact that this character’s shortened name, Kali, meant in the Westron ‘jolly, gay’, though it was actually an abbreviation of the now unmeaning Buckland name Kalimac.

He might also be an allusion to Conan Meriadec/Meriadoc, the legendary founder of Brittany (which would fit with Buckland being a peripheral region to the very British Shire) and supposed ancestor of a noble family called the House of Rohan.

YaketySass fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Apr 15, 2021

Thunder Moose
Mar 7, 2015

S.J.C.

Might be the wrong place since this is technically a "TV" show -- I haven't been paying too much attention to Amazon's middle earth show, but today someone told me they want to sex it up?

It's going to be GoT with elves, isn't it?

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Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon




A long winded sexposition scene in which Annatar describes his diabolical plan to become "lord of the RINGs". The camera pans over a dwarf fingering a proto-hobbit. An elf sings two humans into orgasm. An Ent masturbates in the corner. It goes on for way longer than you would like it to.

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