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Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016


Listen, buddy, we've got to modernise this stuff and bring out the moral grey areas and the dark gritty side of real life. Honestly, what would a trench soldier orphaned at the age of 12 know about real suffering!!?

Southpaugh posted:

An Ent masturbates in the corner. It goes on for way longer than you would like it to.

What we really need is some kind of female equivalent to the Ents. It's stupid that it's like, a male-only race. What we need is some kind of... Entwhores? Entsexslaves? Entcest? Something like that anyway

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Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Username/post combo

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016


Data Graham posted:

Username/post combo

I feel unwell now.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Play with her hrŲa!

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





We all know they are sexing it up to show elf titties. I'm fine with that as long as they show some dwarf dong.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010


College Slice

How many canon female characters are even active in the second age. Galadriel I guess. And uh that one woman from the Numenor story? The one who married the prince who refused to stop sailing?

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


I can't wait for the side plot about Celeborn moonlighting as the male lead in several Dol Amroth Telepornos.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



sweet geek swag posted:

We all know they are sexing it up to show elf titties. I'm fine with that as long as they show some dwarf dong.

cheetah7071 posted:

How many canon female characters are even active in the second age. Galadriel I guess. And uh that one woman from the Numenor story? The one who married the prince who refused to stop sailing?

i wonder if they'll show shelob's spider tiddies

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



Arcsquad12 posted:

I can't wait for the side plot about Celeborn moonlighting as the male lead in several Dol Amroth Telepornos.

Alec Eiffel
Sep 7, 2004

I like the way they think.

My wife just had an extended phone conversation with a studentís parent who turned out to be Tolkienís grandson.

Thatís my story.

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


Anyone wanna read old issues of the Journal of the Tolkien Society? All the ones older than 2 years are up to read for free:

https://journals.tolkiensociety.org/mallorn

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





cheetah7071 posted:

How many canon female characters are even active in the second age. Galadriel I guess. And uh that one woman from the Numenor story? The one who married the prince who refused to stop sailing?

Celebrian would be around probably.

sat on my keys!
Oct 1, 2014


cheetah7071 posted:

How many canon female characters are even active in the second age. Galadriel I guess. And uh that one woman from the Numenor story? The one who married the prince who refused to stop sailing?

There are a few ruling Queens of Numenor. Also Ar-Pharazon's wife who is also his cousin who he forcibly marries. You're thinking of Erendis iirc.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


sweet geek swag posted:

Celebrian would be around probably.

there is a non-zero chance they'll have the attack on Celebrian's caravan be a gangrape scene unfortunately

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





HIJK posted:

there is a non-zero chance they'll have the attack on Celebrian's caravan be a gangrape scene unfortunately

That happens late in the third age, so probably not.

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





Like Ellladan, Elrohir and Arwen aren't even born until the third age. It seems like Elrond didn't even marry Celebrian until after the war of the Last Alliance.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


sweet geek swag posted:

That happens late in the third age, so probably not.

Hopefully not, its just that I donít trust them

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





HIJK posted:

Hopefully not, its just that I don’t trust them

I do not believe Amazon has the rights to anything from the third age and beyond. I think they are legally required to stay within a particular time period.

Zopotantor
Feb 24, 2013

...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...


HIJK posted:

there is a non-zero chance they'll have the attack on Celebrian's caravan be a gangrape scene unfortunately

In the style of Mary Gentle's "hand me another Elf, sergeant, this one's split".

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






The artwork is Mallorn is so cool. I wish they werenít PDFs . Oh wel

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





So I mentioned earlier that I loved Saruman and so of course I loved his speech to Gandalf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz5WVmpvYp0
White!' he sneered. 'It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken.'

In which case it is no longer white,' said I. 'And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.'


But I wondered "just what does this Many Colours thing really mean? I don't get it." I read the books in 2012 and didn't know poo poo. I do remember when inquiring about this passage elsewhere somebody mentioned Newton. I forgot about all of this until I was reminded of it when reading about the German thinkers Schopenhauer and Goethe:

"In 1810, Goethe published On the Theory of Colors (Zur Farbenlehre) in two volumes, having worked on it for twenty years. His motivation was anything but academic or theoretical -- color theory was of direct and lasting significance for his philosophy overall. As Paul Lauxtermann explains, Goethe was repulsed by Newton's method of experimentation, specifically the way he manipulated light through prisms, putting "Nature on the rack" to make it conform to his hypotheses; a related expression of Goethe's rejection of scientific approaches that force, compel, or otherwise abuse nature is his reverence for pure math but his contempt for its application to natural phenomena in such a way that nature is "crucified." Goethe and his romantic contemporaries preferred a holistic, empirical approach to nature, as succinctly demonstrated in the penultimate strophe of Wordsworth's "The Tables Turned" (1798): "Sweet is the lore which Nature brings / Our meddling intellect / Misshapes the beauteous forms of things -- / We murder to dissect."

The editor of the correspondence between Schopenhauer and Goethe, Ludger Littkehaus, offers a compelling synopsis of why Goethe rejected Newtonian methods. The pressing of light through tiny openings, effectively shattering its unity in order to demonstrate a preconceived hypothesis, smacked to Goethe of Francis Bacon's Inquisitorial torture and subjugation of nature. Goethe's attacks on Newton are therefore "a secular rebellion against the experimental scientific-technical modernism" a new aggressive spirit that "robs human beings of their domicile in the world, in their living environment," destroying the unity of nature and the harmony between nature and the subject."


Sorry, as I read and learn, I try to connect it with silly books and games. But at the very least, this or something like this must have been what was on Tolkien's mind while writing.

I've never seen him as Luddite like some say, just a critic of the modern way we apply technology and science. There are plenty of folks like that. Science has never been an impartial method to objectivity.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Apr 23, 2021

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016


Good catch!I think it's a bit over-the-top to be upset over the splitting of light... but in an otherwise pretty dry anthology of early science writing I read a sober, meticulous account of [spoiled for mega bad vibes] the vivisection of a conscious dog from about the same period which was so viscerally unpleasant and vile that I could not read any further. Is that sort of deed the price we must pay to discover how lungs work? I really hope not.

Tree Bucket fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Apr 23, 2021

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





People make that same argument about Mengele and Unit 731. It almost seems like a saving grace that nothing good comes/has come from that kind of experimentation, because then it can be dismissed more unequivocally. It would be super lovely to have to choose between that and not having a breakthrough that could not be gotten any other way.


e: vv yeah that's what I'm saying. It would be a worse situation if they had been valuable science.

Data Graham fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Apr 23, 2021

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007


Not to derail, but the Nazi and Unit 731 experiments didn't teach us anything. They were worthless, scientifically speaking, because, among many other problems, they did not attempt proper controls, randomization, or double-blinds, nor were they systematic or reproducible. They were just torture and murder while holding a clipboard. I realize that you were probably saying that, too, but just thought I'd throw that out there.

OctaviusBeaver
Apr 30, 2009

Say what now?

I guess vivisection was a big controversy back then, Lewis brings it up a lot too. I assumed it was illegal now but wikipedia tells me it isn't, I wonder why you don't hear about it much any more.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!



Morbid Hound

OctaviusBeaver posted:

I guess vivisection was a big controversy back then, Lewis brings it up a lot too. I assumed it was illegal now but wikipedia tells me it isn't, I wonder why you don't hear about it much any more.

https://www.hsi.org/news-media/about/

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Goetheís color book isnít anti-scientific imo. Maybe JRRT or others have taken it that way but I didnít. Heís empirically studying color as itís experienced in day-to-day life. His argument is basically that Newtonian optics are a weird edge case that donít explain how we interact with color most of the time. Itís way more about human color perception than it is about how light spectra work. Itís not faultless or at least makes a number of claims that didnít seem right to me, but I think itís pretty interesting for an old-time scientific treatise.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

Hey Sid Do you believe in UFOs, astral projections, mental telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, spirit photography, telekinetic movement, full trance mediums, the Loch Ness monster, and the theory of Atlantis?

Fun Shoe

Many Colors to me means that Saruman is basically too big for his britches. Instead of keeping a narrow focus on his duty he's gone full Sauron and has decided to control every aspect of everything. He's got his orcs and men. He's created his own ring, or tried to. He's tried to turn Isengard into a copy of Mordor.

Many Colors is him trying to get mastery of....everything.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


I always figured many colours was just synonymous with two-faced.

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007


OctaviusBeaver posted:

I guess vivisection was a big controversy back then, Lewis brings it up a lot too. I assumed it was illegal now but wikipedia tells me it isn't, I wonder why you don't hear about it much any more.

For one thing, it was really difficult to obtain fresh bodies to practice on, what with no refrigeration and nobody volunteering their bodies to science. The legit supply was basically entirely condemned criminals in the extremely local area, and then only if the state was inclined to give them over for experimentation. It was difficult to the point where anatomists would pay grave robbers to steal bodies for them.

Hannibal Rex
Feb 13, 2010


Imagined posted:

Not to derail, but the Nazi and Unit 731 experiments didn't teach us anything.

I'm a bit shaky on the subject, but I'm afraid you're wrong there. A quick google turned up Hubertus Strughold, for example, who got Paperclip'd.

And the Unit 731 people got immunity from the US and leniency from the Soviets, in exchange for their research data.

reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012


Imagined posted:

Not to derail, but the Nazi and Unit 731 experiments didn't teach us anything. They were worthless, scientifically speaking, because, among many other problems, they did not attempt proper controls, randomization, or double-blinds, nor were they systematic or reproducible. They were just torture and murder while holding a clipboard. I realize that you were probably saying that, too, but just thought I'd throw that out there.

They weren't scientific but they were empirical, and in some cases unscientific data is a better starting point than no data. I'm pretty sure for the nazis at least MOST of it was worthless because it was scientific but also because so much of it was so monstrous that nobody would ever want to follow up on but there is an exception to that in the Freezing Experiments, which have actually had people citing them in studies on recovery from freezing temperature.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





skasion posted:

Goetheís color book isnít anti-scientific imo. Maybe JRRT or others have taken it that way but I didnít. Heís empirically studying color as itís experienced in day-to-day life. His argument is basically that Newtonian optics are a weird edge case that donít explain how we interact with color most of the time. Itís way more about human color perception than it is about how light spectra work. Itís not faultless or at least makes a number of claims that didnít seem right to me, but I think itís pretty interesting for an old-time scientific treatise.

I agree. That's what I was trying to say when I mentioned Tolkien never came off as a Luddite to me like he does to others.

There's nothing wrong with science or technology but the way some people think of those things is hosed up, and there are other, healthier ways to do science and use technology. That was Goethe's and Tolkien's message in this regard, IMO.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Hannibal Rex posted:

I'm a bit shaky on the subject, but I'm afraid you're wrong there. A quick google turned up Hubertus Strughold, for example, who got Paperclip'd.

And the Unit 731 people got immunity from the US and leniency from the Soviets, in exchange for their research data.
A lot of these things would have been much less clear in 1947 or something than they are now, in 2021. You also probably wanted to deny the other guy the benefit of this scientist, even if it turns out all he was was a torturer. There was also no, like, actual great discovery from all this torture, the way that one might squint and think 'well, there were certain aspects of anatomy that could not be CONFIRMED in the 17th century without some heinous poo poo.'

As for Tolkien, I think the point with that whole line is that Saruman is trying to change himself into a Power. Tolkien is in general not taking a favorable view of people drastically transforming themselves, and Saruman was supposed to be like Gandalf, working to rally people together, even if he had opted to do it through scholarship and such rather than perambulating around and smoking pipeweed.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






Saruman uses a radio which is important because its applicable to the 1930s rise of fascism in America and Germany etc . Today I guess the analog would be twitter and Facebook

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






reignonyourparade posted:

They weren't scientific but they were empirical, and in some cases unscientific data is a better starting point than no data. I'm pretty sure for the nazis at least MOST of it was worthless because it was scientific but also because so much of it was so monstrous that nobody would ever want to follow up on but there is an exception to that in the Freezing Experiments, which have actually had people citing them in studies on recovery from freezing temperature.

This review of the Dachau hypothermia experiments reveals critical shortcomings in scientific content and credibility. The project was conducted without an orderly experimental protocol, with inadequate methods and an erratic execution. The report is riddled with inconsistencies. There is also evidence of data falsification and suggestions of fabrication. Many conclusions are not supported by the facts presented. The flawed science is compounded by evidence that the director of the project showed a consistent pattern of dishonesty and deception in his professional as well as his personal life, thereby stripping the study of the last vestige of credibility. On analysis, the Dachau hypothermia study has all the ingredients of a scientific fraud, and rejection of the data on purely scientific grounds is inevitable. They cannot advance science or save human lives.

In the light of these findings, attempts to use the data from the Dachau experiments have been puzzling. The persistence of the claim that the work offers usable or valuable information is difficult to understand. One probable reason is the extremely limited availability of the Alexander report and the tendency of investigators to use secondary citations without consulting the primary source. Wider circulation of the Alexander report would thoroughly expose the true nature of the work and put an end to the myth of good science at Dachau. Future citations are inappropriate on scientific grounds.

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


euphronius posted:

Saruman uses a radio which is important because its applicable to the 1930s rise of fascism in America and Germany etc . Today I guess the analog would be twitter and Facebook

Palantiri aren't mass media, though, they're panopticons. The only communication through them is with other palantir-users.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






I was referring to his Voice power. Which maybe came from his Ring.

Zopotantor
Feb 24, 2013

...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...


Ginette Reno posted:

Many Colors to me means that Saruman is basically too big for his britches. Instead of keeping a narrow focus on his duty he's gone full Sauron and has decided to control every aspect of everything. He's got his orcs and men. He's created his own ring, or tried to. He's tried to turn Isengard into a copy of Mordor.

Many Colors is him trying to get mastery of....everything.

When he accuses Gandalf of trying to acquire "the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards", that's just pure projection.

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No Pants
Dec 10, 2000



euphronius posted:

I was referring to his Voice power. Which maybe came from his Ring.

It seemed to me that his magical voice is part of his role as the White, since Gandalf uses it on the party when he reveals himself again (and then calls himself Saruman).

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