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Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!



Morbid Hound

No Pants posted:

It seemed to me that his magical voice is part of his role as the White, since Gandalf uses it on the party when he reveals himself again (and then calls himself Saruman).

It's a Gift, corrupted. Gandalf also uses it to cure Theoden.

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Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


Zopotantor posted:

When he accuses Gandalf of trying to acquire "the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards", that's just pure projection.

He's got Isildur's bones in a cupboard in Orthanc. He's one hundred million percent projecting.

Oracle
Oct 9, 2004




Gats Akimbo posted:

He's got Isildur's bones in a cupboard in Orthanc. He's one hundred million percent projecting.

Wait, what?

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Oracle posted:

Wait, what?

He went looking for the site of the disaster of the Gladden Fields, figuring he could pick up the Ring for free. He found Isildur’s body and looted the rest of his stuff, but no ring, which is why he began to push the “uh yeah it’s somewhere in the sea apparently” line with the White Council while secretly suspecting one of them of having swiped it. It’s in Unfinished Tales iirc.

Actually looking at the passage he just kept the loot and put Isildur out with the trash. Poor guy

quote:

Long afterwards, as the Third Age of the Elvish World waned and the War of the Ring approached, it was revealed to the Council of Elrond that the Ring had been found, sunk near the edge of the Gladden Fields and close to the western bank; though no trace of Isildur’s body was ever discovered. They were also then aware that Saruman had been secretly searching in the same region; but though he had not found the Ring (which had long before been carried off ), they did not yet know what else he might have discovered.

But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the re-ordering of his realm, and one of his first tasks was the restoration of Orthanc, where he proposed to set up again the palantír recovered from Saruman. Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. Many things of worth were found, jewels and heirlooms of Eorl, filched from Edoras by the agency of Wormtongue during King Théoden’s decline, and other such things, more ancient and beautiful, from mounds and tombs far and wide. Saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. At last behind a hidden door that they could not have found or opened had not Elessar had the aid of Gimli the Dwarf a steel closet was revealed. Maybe it had been intended to receive the Ring; but it was almost bare. In a casket on a high shelf two things were laid. One was a small case of gold, attached to a fine chain; it was empty, and bore no letter or token, but beyond all doubt it had once borne the Ring about Isildur’s neck. Next to it lay a treasure without price, long mourned as lost for ever: the Elendilmir itself, the white star of Elvish crystal upon a fillet of mithril that had descended from Silmarien to Elendil, and had been taken by him as the token of royalty in the North Kingdom. Every king and the chieftains that followed them in Arnor had borne the Elendilmir down even to Elessar himself; but though it was a jewel of great beauty, made by Elven-smiths in Imladris for Valandil Isildur’s son, it had not the ancientry nor potency of the one that had been lost when Isildur fled into the dark and came back no more.

Elessar took it up with reverence, and when he returned to the North and took up again the full kingship of Arnor Arwen bound it upon his brow, and men were silent in amaze to see its splendour. But Elessar did not again imperil it, and wore it only on high days in the North Kingdom. Otherwise, when in kingly raiment he bore the Elendilmir which had descended to him. ‘And this also is a thing of reverence,’ he said, ‘and above my worth; forty heads have worn it before.’

When men considered this secret hoard more closely, they were dismayed. For it seemed to them that these things, and certainly the Elendilmir, could not have been found, unless they had been upon Isildur’s body when he sank; but if that had been in deep water of strong flow they would in time have been swept far away. Therefore Isildur must have fallen not into the deep stream but into shallow water, no more than shoulder-high. Why then, though an Age had passed, were there no traces of his bones? Had Saruman found them, and scorned them – burned them with dishonour in one of his furnaces? If that were so, it was a shameful deed; but not his worst.

skasion fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Apr 24, 2021

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


I misremembered slightly:

Unfinished Tales posted:

But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the re-ordering of his realm, and one of his first tasks was the restoration of Orthanc, where he proposed to set up again the palantír recovered from Saruman. Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. Many things of worth were found, jewels and heirlooms of Eorl, filched from Edoras by the agency of Wormtongue during King Théoden's decline, and other such things, more ancient and beautiful, from mounds and tombs far and wide. Saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. At last behind a hidden door that they could not have found or opened had not Elessar had the aid of Gimli the Dwarf a steel closet was revealed. Maybe it had been intended to receive the Ring; but it was almost bare. In a casket on a high shelf two things were laid. One was a small case of gold, attached to a fine chain; it was empty, and bore no letter or token, but beyond all doubt it had once borne the Ring about Isildur's neck. Next to it lay a treasure without price, long mourned as lost for ever: the Elendilmir itself, the white star of Elvish crystal upon a fillet of mithril that had descended from Silmarien to Elendil, and had been taken by him as the token of royalty in the North Kingdom. Every king and the chieftains that followed them in Arnor had borne the Elendilmir down even to Elessar himself; but though it was a jewel of great beauty, made by Elven-smiths in Imladris for Valandil Isildur's son, it had not the ancientry nor potency of the one that had been lost when Isildur fled into the dark and came back no more.

[...]

When men considered this secret hoard more closely, they were dismayed. For it seemed to them that these things, and certainly the Elendilmir, could not have been found, unless they had been upon Isildur's body when he sank; but if that had been in deep water of strong flow they would in time have been swept far away. Therefore Isildur must have fallen not into the deep stream but into shallow water, no more than shoulder-high, Why then, though an Age had passed, were there no traces of his bones? Had Saruman found them, and scorned them—burned them with dishonour in one of his furnaces? If that were so, it was a shameful deed; but not his worst.

efb. But yeah. Saruman got pretty gross.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





drat, I really need to read Unfinished Tales. My coverage of the HoME is haphazard

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Unfinished Tales isn’t part of HoME, it’s its own thing though it has a similar format. Basically it’s what Chris Tolkien did with everything that he couldn’t work into the Silmarillion. Then he came to feel like the idea of polishing up his dad’s stuff and trying to harmonize all of it was missing the point and decided to just do a twelve volume scholarly analysis of all his Middle-earth papers. That’s HoME.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Right, right. I keep getting it mixed up with The Lost Road or something.

And on second thought I have read it, I just don't remember this bit. Welp

Phy
Jun 27, 2008





Fun Shoe

Over the course of the last half a year or so I've been slowly rereading LOTR in anticipation of going back to the Silmarillion, after taking a big break from the whole Tolkien thing after watching all three of the extended edition movies in one day. Just got real sick of hobbits for a while there, lol. My tendency when reading is to skim and backtrack a bunch, so I've been forcing myself to read it "out loud" in my head (or sometimes just quietly out loud for real) so I don't miss anything. I also find that helps me get a better idea of what the characters are feeling, because I'm basically scriptreading their dialogue.

Is that weird?

Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon




Sounds good to me dude. Whatever works for you.

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


Tolkien's prose is great for reading out loud IMNSHO.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!



Morbid Hound

All of Tolkien's major influences were from oral poetic traditions. Probably makes more sense to read it aloud than silently.

webmeister
Jan 31, 2007

The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm.

I would guess that a pretty significant fraction of people’s first exposure to The Hobbit was from someone reading it to them

SeductiveReasoning
Nov 2, 2005

382 BC - 301 BC

So I set a goal this year to finally start collecting the HoME series. I wanted the first American edition hardbacks. I set my eBay alerts and was going to piecemeal it out as I saw good deals. But then I managed to snag this listing for the entire set for just $200. Unbelievable deal. I’m so excited.

SeductiveReasoning fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Apr 30, 2021

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

Hey Sid Do you believe in UFOs, astral projections, mental telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, spirit photography, telekinetic movement, full trance mediums, the Loch Ness monster, and the theory of Atlantis?

Fun Shoe

webmeister posted:

I would guess that a pretty significant fraction of people’s first exposure to The Hobbit was from someone reading it to them

I randomly picked it out of the book shelf when I was in 5th grade. I had no idea what it was but it looked cool.

It did not disappoint.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010


College Slice

The book of lost tales owns so you'll be off to a strong start

Unkempt
May 24, 2003

Sexual Air Supply




Tinfang Warble?

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Tinwelint.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010


College Slice

Tevildo, Prince of Cats, should have found his way into later drafts somehow

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





cheetah7071 posted:

Tevildo, Prince of Cats, should have found his way into later drafts somehow

That is still Sauron's name!

In my heart.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






The Lay of Leithian is incredibly metal

It owns

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



whats the story with the fat elf jester

was it only in some gondolin version

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

cheetah7071 posted:

Tevildo, Prince of Cats, should have found his way into later drafts somehow

Tolkien's tendency to edit out the personality of his villains is definitely a mark against him, as opposed to Eddison or Peake. But maybe that's more on Christopher, Saruman & Grima are pretty great as published.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






Also Gollum.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



euphronius posted:

Also Gollum.

if he had had an elfier name like gollumfindel he's been a protagonist

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Blood Boils posted:

Tolkien's tendency to edit out the personality of his villains is definitely a mark against him, as opposed to Eddison or Peake. But maybe that's more on Christopher, Saruman & Grima are pretty great as published.

The Tevildo stuff is pretty wild, but the Sauron material in Lay of Leithian that replaced it is incredibly good, probably my favorite evil bit in all of Tolkien.

Tolkien uses evil characters quite sparingly. He never follows one around in perspective. If you see one it’s almost always because a good guy was there to report on it — almost the only exception I can think of to this is the story of Morgoth and Ungoliant. Eddison and Peake both absolutely love to follow scheming bastards around while they do dirt.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010


College Slice

Yeah I'm not sad that Tevildo was replaced by Sauron in Beren and Luthien. I'm just sad Tevildo never found another home somewhere else.

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019




cheetah7071 posted:

Yeah I'm not sad that Tevildo was replaced by Sauron in Beren and Luthien. I'm just sad Tevildo never found another home somewhere else.

Corey Olsen has him as one of Sauron's primary hench-Maia in the Silmarillion Film Project.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

euphronius posted:

Also Gollum.

Oh yeah that guy

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007


Dominic Monaghan and Billy Boyd are launching a new podcast about their experience making the LOTR films.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSJ7Sl-Q-HE

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


Anshu posted:

Corey Olsen has him as one of Sauron's primary hench-Maia in the Silmarillion Film Project.

Kind of weird that he doesn't seem to have any hench-Maiar by the time Frodo and co roll around now I think of it, but I guess attrition from war, war, more war and Numenor going splat would explain that.

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





Gats Akimbo posted:

Kind of weird that he doesn't seem to have any hench-Maiar by the time Frodo and co roll around now I think of it, but I guess attrition from war, war, more war and Numenor going splat would explain that.

After Morgoth went on his very long trip there wasn't really any reason for any of the other Maia to follow Sauron. None of the Maia were specifically loyal to Sauron, they just let him be in charge while Morgoth was indisposed.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Not too sure Sauron would have been interested in having a fellow god in his camp either. He would never be able to trust them and it would take a lot of work and risk to bring them completely under his power. The one time we see him actively work with another god it’s Saruman. Neither of them trusts the other, both are planning to bump each other off ASAP.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Also by the time of the Third Age the old powers are pretty much waning and all but gone. Durin's Bane is the only other corrutped Maia we know of and it's stated Sauron knew of it but wasn't gonna try and mess with him or recruit him.

And Gandalf had Smaug killed before he could joinSauron.

Pretty much in terms of the "ancient evils" still active in Middle-earth, only Shelob sorta kinda worked with Sauron, although even she had no loyalty to him and just let him give her food.

Gats Akimbo
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post


sweet geek swag posted:

After Morgoth went on his very long trip there wasn't really any reason for any of the other Maia to follow Sauron. None of the Maia were specifically loyal to Sauron, they just let him be in charge while Morgoth was indisposed.

They'd have good reason to worry about what might happen to them if they tried heading back to Valinor, at least. Even if most of them had the sense to avoid making things worse for themselves there's always some idiots who just can't stop digging.

skasion posted:

Not too sure Sauron would have been interested in having a fellow god in his camp either. He would never be able to trust them and it would take a lot of work and risk to bring them completely under his power. The one time we see him actively work with another god it's Saruman. Neither of them trusts the other, both are planning to bump each other off ASAP.

There's a lot of power variation though - Saruman may be a threat to Sauron, but relatively low-power Maiar shouldn't be. And we know he finds henchthings/lieutenants with more power than Orcs useful; even before he made himself the Nazgul he had boss werewolves and whatever Thuringwethil was.

NikkolasKing posted:

Also by the time of the Third Age the old powers are pretty much waning and all but gone. Durin's Bane is the only other corrutped Maia we know of and it's stated Sauron knew of it but wasn't gonna try and mess with him or recruit him.

Didn't Tolkien suggest at some point the Great Goblin in The Hobbit was one?

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






NikkolasKing posted:

Also by the time of the Third Age the old powers are pretty much waning and all but gone. Durin's Bane is the only other corrutped Maia we know of and it's stated Sauron knew of it but wasn't gonna try and mess with him or recruit him.

And Gandalf had Smaug killed before he could joinSauron.

Pretty much in terms of the "ancient evils" still active in Middle-earth, only Shelob sorta kinda worked with Sauron, although even she had no loyalty to him and just let him give her food.

The orcs of course !

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010


College Slice

If even Sauron was given the chance to come to Valinor and get a trial and probably not be ejected into the void like Morgoth, I'm sure others did too and some of them took them up on it

Maybe Tevildo is just hanging out in Valinor, sleeping in a nice sunny spot on Taniquetil

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

I am gently caressed by my SAnta


Fun Shoe

The guy's name is T Evil Do.

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Imagined
Feb 2, 2007


SHISHKABOB posted:

The guy's name is T Evil Do.

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