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Blood Boils posted:Aragorn and Arwen are cousins Elrond, Arwen's father, is the twin brother of Aragorn's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather. Their kinship is far more cultural & historical than biological.
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Jun 1, 2022 20:59
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Anshu posted:Elrond, Arwen's father, is the twin brother of Aragorn's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather. They say that everybody of European descent is descended from Charlemagne, and that was only like 1000 years ago... I don't look at a painting of Charlemagne's court and say "ah, my cousins!" Aragorn was born over 6000 years after Elrond & Elros. Probably just about everyone in Gondor was equally as much Arwen's "cousin" as Aragorn was.
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Jun 1, 2022 23:59
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Pham Nuwen posted:They say that everybody of European descent is descended from Charlemagne, and that was only like 1000 years ago... I don't look at a painting of Charlemagne's court and say "ah, my cousins!" Friend of mine got into genealogy and was all "Hay look who I'm descended from!!  "I was like .....buddy
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Jun 2, 2022 00:06
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Pham Nuwen posted:They say that everybody of European descent is descended from Charlemagne, and that was only like 1000 years ago... I don't look at a painting of Charlemagne's court and say "ah, my cousins!" Yeah that's what I was getting at.
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Jun 2, 2022 00:07
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Anshu posted:Yeah that's what I was getting at. When I drafted that post I wasn't sure it was clear enough that I agreed with you... my fears are realized: I was 100% in agreement with your post.
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Jun 2, 2022 00:28
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Tripping over yourselves to defend gross royalty elves, smh
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Jun 2, 2022 06:26
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I like their story as told in the RotK appendix but I also like pretending Elrond said “yeah you can marry my hot, old daughter… if you’re the king of the whole world” as a kind of goof then he loving does it. I guess that’s too close to Thingol though. I guess that’s the big difference: they both set a seemingly impossible bride price but Elrond actually
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Jun 2, 2022 12:28
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Elrond is more closely related to Thingol than he is to Aragorn. He also grew up in the middle of the wreckage created by Thingol’s fuckery, he knew what he was doing and it wasn’t a joke. I don’t have the book in front of me but right before he says “you can’t marry my daughter unless you restore the kingship” he has one of those lines where he implies he’s doing what he hopes is God’s will.
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Jun 2, 2022 12:39
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Yeah, Olsen covered that in some detail (surprise). His stance is that Elrond is basically saying "well if there's still a world to be king OF, then sure you can marry my daughter". Like him becoming king implies that Sauron's been defeated and only then is it worth even talking about planning a wedding.
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Jun 2, 2022 12:47
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The big difference, of course, is that Thingol gave Beren a task he thought was impossible, Elrond is setting Aragorn a task he is hoping is not impossible. Elrond is actually putting his faith in Aragorn.
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Jun 2, 2022 13:39
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Also Thingol is a dick head.
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Jun 2, 2022 14:40
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Dancing around his craftsmen "betcha can't murder me nah nah!"
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Jun 2, 2022 16:13
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sweet geek swag posted:The big difference, of course, is that Thingol gave Beren a task he thought was impossible, Elrond is setting Aragorn a task he is hoping is not impossible. Elrond is actually putting his faith in Aragorn. That strikes me as particularly appropriate, given that Aragorn grew up umder the name "Estel".
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Jun 2, 2022 18:36
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Elrond is also explicitly established in the story as THE loremaster in Middle Earth and he’d be not only intimately familiar with everything that’s historically happened since the world was created but understand the deeper implications of it all. Specifically the role of fate/providence in shaping what is and might be. During the Council of Elrond chapter he outright says that it is surely no lucky coincidence that such an assemblage of important people ended up in Rivendale at the same time despite each having an entirely different and seemingly unrelated reason behind it. So he’s a dude who clearly trusts that Eru in some shape or form still works to at least offer the Free Peoples a path to win against Sauron. So when he gave Aragorn his ultimatum regarding Arwen he did not consider it some hopeless task. Thingol on the other hand was an insular dickhead uninterested in the comings and goings of anything outside Doriath and figured he could get around his promise to not kill Beren by making him do something that will surely do the dirty work for him.
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Jun 2, 2022 23:09
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Elrond is also explicitly established in the story as THE loremaster in Middle Earth and he’d be not only intimately familiar with everything that’s historically happened since the world was created but understand the deeper implications of it all. Specifically the role of fate/providence in shaping what is and might be. During the Council of Elrond chapter he outright says that it is surely no lucky coincidence that such an assemblage of important people ended up in Rivendale at the same time despite each having an entirely different and seemingly unrelated reason behind it. So he’s a dude who clearly trusts that Eru in some shape or form still works to at least offer the Free Peoples a path to win against Sauron. So when he gave Aragorn his ultimatum regarding Arwen he did not consider it some hopeless task. I actually think Thingol just expected Beren to give up. If he'd actually wanted Beren to die I think he'd have been angry when Beren returned handless, instead he actually seemed to be ashamed of his actions. That being said, Thingol wasn't exactly the sort of guy to dwell on the potential consequences of his actions.
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Jun 2, 2022 23:14
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That's all true, but on another level it's fun to step back a bit and think about how the fairy-story tradition Tolkien was playing off of was always from the perspective of a lost human getting abducted or tricked by elves, whereas stuff like the character portrait of Thingol let us think of it from his POV, and see his character flaws for what they are. To the abducted humans the actions of the elves surely always seemed inscrutable, doing things that seemed pettily vengeful or provincial or just malicious, not befitting their stature as royal supernatural figures; but maybe that's just because the elves they happened to meet were venal jealous dicks.
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Jun 2, 2022 23:15
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sweet geek swag posted:I actually think Thingol just expected Beren to give up. If he'd actually wanted Beren to die I think he'd have been angry when Beren returned handless, instead he actually seemed to be ashamed of his actions. That being said, Thingol wasn't exactly the sort of guy to dwell on the potential consequences of his actions. I think it was Luthien escaping her imprisonment to go rescue Beren and then returning with him in the end that really caused Thingol to chill out. Especially because Beren told Thingol all the incredibly badass stuff they had done in the quest when he first got back. If Beren had just left and came back having been successful without Luthien having a role in it I doubt Thingol would have been so happy. And remember, a key turning point is when the two sons of Feanor show up claiming that they have her held captive and essentially demanding that Luthien be betrothed to one of them. And Thingol hated Feanor and his brood far more than Beren. He was preparing to go to war with Nagathrond when Beren returned. And during Beren’s account of all that had occurred he obviously talked about how he took an arrow to the chest to protect Luthien from being shot by one of the sons (I forget which one). That’ll impress a possessive dad. Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jun 2, 2022 |
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Jun 2, 2022 23:19
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Pretty sure it was Caranthir who shot Beren. He and Curufin were the two biggest jackasses out of the surviving Sons.
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Jun 3, 2022 00:17
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Arc Hammer posted:Pretty sure it was Caranthir who shot Beren. He and Curufin were the two biggest jackasses out of the surviving Sons. But drat, what a contest. Even Maedhros had his moments. Though we don't know if the twins did anything dickish. In some versions didn't one or both of them die in Losgar?
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Jun 3, 2022 17:18
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A Moose posted:But drat, what a contest. Even Maedhros had his moments. Though we don't know if the twins did anything dickish. In some versions didn't one or both of them die in Losgar? Amrod gets roasted in the ship-burning yes. It’s an etymological touch to explain why his name means “Fated”. In Shibboleth of Feanor I think
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Jun 3, 2022 17:29
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A Moose posted:But drat, what a contest. Even Maedhros had his moments. Though we don't know if the twins did anything dickish. In some versions didn't one or both of them die in Losgar? The twins participated in the sacking of Sirion and died there iirc.
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Jun 3, 2022 18:28
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Yeah, Amrod getting crispy-crittered happened in a very late partial rewrite that didn't make it into the published Silmarillion.
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Jun 3, 2022 19:14
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The real question is how many of Aragorn's ancestors did Elrond promise Arwen to previously?
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Jun 3, 2022 19:22
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sassassin posted:The real question is how many of Aragorn's ancestors did Elrond promise Arwen to previously? Not many, she hung out with her cool grandma in Lorien most of the time.
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Jun 3, 2022 19:23
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sassassin posted:The real question is how many of Aragorn's ancestors did Elrond promise Arwen to previously? 'Father! How many of these mortal stiff's are you going to set me up with?' 'Look. One of them is bound to come good eventually. We just need to keep rolling the dice'
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Jun 3, 2022 20:28
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Literally said over the guy’s creaking 102 year old corpse “gently caress, again?”
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Jun 3, 2022 20:38
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Aragorn fared a little better than his father Arathorn who got killed by taking an Orc arrow to the god damned eye. Poor guy. Arathorn's father was captured by Hill Trolls lol.
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Jun 4, 2022 08:13
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Just a line of bumbling doofuses who just live long enough to sire an heir before getting killed. The Florida Men of Middle Earth. Deptfordx fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 10:27
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Friends, as we gather upon the Aralawn to Aramourn our dear friend Arathorn, our hearts feel Aratorn; but we gain some measure of comfort from knowing that an heir has been Araborn, who in time shall be Arasworn to continue the work of the Rangers. Let us conclude the ceremony by blowing the Arahorn!
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Jun 4, 2022 10:40
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Ara- is westron for Bat-
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Jun 4, 2022 12:00
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Members of the house of Hador and their Dunedain descendants take more arrows to the eye than Skyrim guards take to the knees.
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Jun 4, 2022 15:38
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Aragorn's stated reasoning for taking the Paths of the Dead instead of riding with the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith is that he's in too big a hurry: the Rohirrim won't come there soon enough, and the Paths of the Dead will be faster. Of course, it also turns out that by going that way he also liberates the coastal cities and brings reinforcements to lift the siege, but those are only incidental, not the initial reason he went that way. And yet he arrives there after Theoden and the rest. If all he really wanted was to get there as fast as possible, he'd have literally been better off riding with the main host.
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Jun 4, 2022 20:33
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Imagined posted:Aragorn's stated reasoning for taking the Paths of the Dead instead of riding with the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith is that he's in too big a hurry: the Rohirrim won't come there soon enough, and the Paths of the Dead will be faster. Of course, it also turns out that by going that way he also liberates the coastal cities and brings reinforcements to lift the siege, but those are only incidental, not the initial reason he went that way.
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Jun 4, 2022 20:38
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WHAT did we learn about shortcuts??
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Jun 4, 2022 20:50
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Yeah, he only tells his boys about the prophecy. He even only hints at it to Éowyn. He knows what he’s doing and has seen their impending doom if he doesn’t stop the corsairs. If the horse lords could have mustered more and more quickly then they might have beaten the orc host prior to the arrival of the black ships but that wasn’t gonna happen.
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Jun 4, 2022 20:53
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Kaysette posted:Yeah, he only tells his boys about the prophecy. He even only hints at it to Éowyn. He knows what he’s doing and has seen their impending doom if he doesn’t stop the corsairs. If the horse lords could have mustered more and more quickly then they might have beaten the orc host prior to the arrival of the black ships but that wasn’t gonna happen. Yeah when he looks in the palantir he sees some poo poo and decides to change his course and take the paths. He not only sees that but he also has Elrond's sons show up who basically also tell him in so many words to take those paths.
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Jun 5, 2022 02:09
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Yeah Elrond’s sons and the Grey Company show up and relay a message from Elrond that Aragorn must take the paths of the dead or everything is going to go to poo poo.
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Jun 5, 2022 02:57
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Yeah Elrond’s sons and the Grey Company show up and relay a message from Elrond that Aragorn must take the paths of the dead or everything is going to go to poo poo. Interestingly, it's not the first time it was suggested to him. When the resurrected Gandalf stayed in Lothlorien for a while to get his bearings, Galadriel sent him on his way with messages for Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. Aragorn's message has a reference to the Paths of the Dead that makes me wonder if she was the original source of that bit of foresight: The Two Towers posted:Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar? If she was also keeping in touch with Elrond then he might have seen fit to reinforce the message a little more bluntly, but Aragorn might already have been thinking about it.
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Jun 5, 2022 03:52
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I assume there’s some kind of elvish ring bearer group chat where they plan this cryptic stuff. No one responds to Saruman in the white council chat anymore and he knows what happened.
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Jun 5, 2022 04:05
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Imagined posted:Aragorn's stated reasoning for taking the Paths of the Dead instead of riding with the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith is that he's in too big a hurry: the Rohirrim won't come there soon enough, and the Paths of the Dead will be faster. Of course, it also turns out that by going that way he also liberates the coastal cities and brings reinforcements to lift the siege, but those are only incidental, not the initial reason he went that way. Theoden and co. also do a truly legendary fast arrival between just doing it well and cooperating with the natives to avoid Mordor's rear guard, though. Aragorn has good reason to think the Paths will be faster, even if it turns out not to be.
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Jun 8, 2022 00:39
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