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So I’m rereading LOTR for the first time in nearly a decade. I went into it trying to erase any preconceived images from the movies and letting the text really paint the picture for me like I did the first time I read them 20 years ago. (I do love the movies, despite their flaws, and I pretty much will always picture Ian McKellen as Gandalf and hum Howard Shore’s score as I read, oh well). I’m only to Lothlorien so far but one thing that struck me while I was reading the chapters on Moria, the balrog in the movie seems entirely too large. Wing argument aside, it seemed like he described it as being larger than a man but not like 30 ft tall like in the movie. The balrog shouldn’t be intimidating because of its size, it should just look dangerous and other-worldly and scary. Something always struck me as weird in the movie when this gigantic balrog tries to cross this tiny bridge. The other thing that has really bummed me out so far (knowing that the Amazon series is coming) is that they’re not adapting the Lord of the Rings books. Fellowship so far is very episodic and would divide up nicely into like a 10 or 13 episode season without cutting anything out. Even merry Tom Bombadillo! 1) A Long Expected Party 2) Shadow of the Past 3) Black Riders/Farmer Maggot/Crickhollow 4) Old Willow/Tom Bombadil/Barrow Downs 5) Bree 6) Weathertop 7) Flight to the Ford 8) Rivendell/Flashback to fill in Gandalf’s absence 9) Council of Elrond 10) The Ring Goes South/Red Horn Gate/Wolf Attack 11) Moria 12) Lothlorien 13) Amon Hen
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Nov 18, 2018 14:50
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Tolkien never ceases to amaze me. The Fellowship travels for days with nothing really happening? Describe every bit of landscape, geography, who slept and who stood watch, and what songs they sang. Boromir murders 20 orcs trying to save Merry and Pippin before being killed? Don’t even tell us what happened, just spend like a half a page on it. I had forgotten too that Tolkien actually leaves the fate of the Fellowship an open question at the end of FOTR. Honestly I think that’s one great move Peter Jackson made, the first chapter of the Two Towers belongs at the end of FOTR.
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Nov 20, 2018 04:24
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euphronius posted:He didn't structure it as a trilogy. Yeah but he separated that chapter from The Breaking of the Fellowship, even amongst the “books”. It should’ve been part of Book 2. It’s a really inelegant break in the action whether it’s the end of a volume or the end of a book. The end of “The Departure of Boromir” is a much more natural way to end both the Fellowship of the Ring, and “Book II”.
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Nov 20, 2018 04:46
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skasion posted:How Boromir killed a bunch of orcs is irrelevant (there has already been one gratuitous scene of orc slaughter in the book) and Tolkien is a better writer for not wasting time on it when what is important is Boromir's suffering, death, repentance, moral purification. The "action" of the chapter isn't focused around Boromir killing some orcs, it's around Frodo's decision to abandon his friends and pursue the quest alone. It isn't an open question. The idea that a bunch of orcs have fallen upon them isn't some thing that Tolkien leaves unresolved, it's something that is only brought up at the start of Book III. As far as Book II is concerned, they're being pursued but the orcs aren't like right there or anything, it's a horrible shock to Aragorn in the beginning of book III when suddenly they're under attack. The fact that PJ's movie chooses to end with a big action scene is because action is what the movies are about. You speak of Boromir’s death and repentance, but that’s like 2 paragraphs of one page. And Aragorn gives some cheesy rear end soliloquy after he dies “Oh what shall I do? And what shall become of the Quest?!” It’s bad writing from an otherwise really good writer. In fact, I find the dialogue between the characters to be the most engaging stuff in the whole book, but Boromir’s death is really kind of glazed over and it’s a little off-putting. It doesn’t feel as redemptive as it should. Maybe we don’t need gratuitous descriptions of the slaying of the 20 orcs, but he died trying to save the lives of Merry and Pippin and I feel like that deserves more than a one line mention. Mahoning fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Nov 20, 2018 |
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Nov 20, 2018 05:41
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Data Graham posted:This is a tangent and off-topic and I don't mean to pick on you, Mahoning, it's just something I've seen a whole lot recently and I have to mention it somewhere: Ya I actually thought of that this morning. Usually my vocabulary gets better while I'm reading but apparently not last night.
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Nov 20, 2018 15:04
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I don’t blame Frodo for not leaving the Shire sooner. Gandalf tells him all about the ring and how he has to leave the Shire, and then proceeds to hang around for a few weeks. Then Frodo is like “I think I’m gonna leave on my birthday” and Gandalf is like “Hmmm ok that’s fine”.
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Nov 24, 2018 02:44
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Lemniscate Blue posted:If Gandalf had been on schedule, they'd have set out on the journey months earlier. I don’t think this is true. Gandalf leaves at the end of June because he has heard some news that troubled him. He tells Frodo he might be right back but at the very least he’d be back for the predetermined departure date of Frodo’s birthday (September 20th). Gandalf was hoping Frodo left sooner, but when Frodo suggests his birthday, Gandalf instantly agrees to it. There was never any other plan or schedule.
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Nov 24, 2018 14:26
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poisonpill posted:It shouldn't have taken Frodo so long to get out of the Shire for the plot-reason that it's the slowest, least interesting part of the story. Tolkien was more concerned with realism and exploring his world than telling a story. Frodo should have taken the cart and gotten to the inn in three pages, and then they should have never met Tom Bombadil and gotten to the Council of Elrond within the first fifty pages. Ehhh I partially disagree. The Black Riders pursuing Frodo creates some urgency and mystery early on. On this most recent read through, I really enjoyed the dramatic moment of Farmer Maggot taking the hobbits in his cart and Frodo hearing the footsteps of a horse approaching and worrying that it was the Black Riders. “I want Mr. Baggins, have you seen him?” only for it to be Merry...pretty cool. In fact it’s such a fun little dramatic and frankly cinematic moment that I’m surprised Peter Jackson didn’t include it in his script. I mean yes, the old forest, Tom Bombadil, the Barrow Downs, they do slow down the plot. In fact everything from Crickhollow to Bree could be cut out and you wouldn’t miss much. Especially since Bombadil is used as a deus ex machina against the barrow wights and then barely ever mentioned again except at the Council of Elrond which in hindsight comes off as Tolkien preemptively trying to eliminate talk of “why didn’t they just give the ring to Tom Bombadil since it held no power over him?”. That being said, I didn’t find those chapters to be as bad as I remembered on this read through. If anything, it makes the book really seem to fly once they leave Rivendell. (Ok maybe Lothlorien is a bit of a slog too)
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Nov 24, 2018 17:14
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euphronius posted:Bombadil saving them isn’t dues ex Machina as it carefully follows the logic of the world. So do the eagles, but even Tolkien admitted they were pretty much a deus ex machina. Mahoning fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 00:10
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So I just finished Book III and it is so good. I think the whole thing takes place over the course of a week or so, you get tons of cool character moments (especially from Gimli), and the plot just overall flies compared to much of the first two books.
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Nov 26, 2018 22:00
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I’m more forgiving of a lot of changes PJ made for the movies, especially compared to many of you, but the high pitch shrieking Nazgul are awful. I would rather them have been completely silent than what Jackson did.
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Dec 20, 2018 04:29
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You can spent all the money in the world on designing a set and it still won't look good if you don't know how to direct a camera. 
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Feb 23, 2019 14:41
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The Amazon LOTR page updated their map with the next line from the poem. Nine for mortal men doomed to die. https://www.amazon.com/adlp/lotronprime?fbclid=IwAR3QSgt5348BWjnha-seKDDgaQq3xfyIkExSCOaVLH6ND6Egc2ZDcQb83Mo It fills in the names of the coastal regions between the rivers. And probably most interestingly, refers to Lothlorien as Laurelindórenan, "Valley of Singing Gold". This probably further hints that this will take place well before the end of the Third Age.
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Feb 25, 2019 15:29
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What's wrong with depicting a TV show taking place over the course of 1800 years when most of the characters don't age?
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Feb 25, 2019 16:32
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Since it's called "Lord of the Rings", it would actually be interesting if it just followed Sauron in the Second Age and the forces against him. If you manage to cast Sauron correctly as someone insanely handsome but can also be super scary/creepy, it could work.
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Feb 25, 2019 16:38
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Something something Mouth of Sauron.
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Feb 25, 2019 19:04
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Amazon filled in more of the map (with the next line of the poem, "One for the Dark Lord..."), with specific place names and it is further hinting at taking place well before the end of the Third Age. Some interesting tidbits, Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul are labeled with their OG names Minas Anor and Minas Ithil. Pretty cool. Rivendell is of course Imladris. Everything seems to have its old/Elvish names. Someone pointed out that Amazon has waited however many number of days that are mentioned in that specific verse to post the next phrase. So they waited 3 days after "Three rings for the Elven Kings..." and 7 and 9 days after the next two. Which would probably lead to another post tomorrow.
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Mar 6, 2019 16:53
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Notice how the map is really empty and smudgy in that region north of Mordor? I wonder if they'll drop like a title/logo there tomorrow? Seems odd that it would be both empty AND have that smudgy discoloring without something going there. Anyways, I wonder if, since they've been using the poem about the rings, if the show will start with the forging of the rings and continue from there chronologically. There's a hell of a lot of interesting poo poo in the few hundred years after the forging of the rings.
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Mar 6, 2019 17:34
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Boom, Numenor confirmed for the Amazon series. edit: The official page commented below the map "Welcome to the Second Age" edit2: Lots of other place names either removed or changed on the new map. Lothlorien has changed from Laurelindorenan to Lorinand. Moria has been changed to Khazad Dum. Rivendell is gone. Lots of old forests added! Mahoning fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 15:05
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh shi Yeah this seems likely the case, especially if they're gonna keep the name "Lord of the Rings". Having Sauron be the center of the plot that everything kind of revolves around makes sense. Although I think you can make an entire first season that ENDS with the forging of the rings. I'd say they're probably planning for more like 5-7 seasons, but having the last alliance be the ultimate climax of the series makes sense.
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Mar 7, 2019 16:19
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Well it’s rumored to be the most expensive television show ever made. So I imagine that means the acting and production values will be good. So the only question then is the writing. But the raw material is there for some amazing poo poo, it just depends on how they use it.
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Mar 7, 2019 16:55
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Shibawanko posted:I guess the different maps they released must represent different planned seasons then? Since you can't have Numenor and Annuminas at the same time. I mean, going from their "Welcome to the Second Age" comment, it sounds like they might be covering all of (or most of) the Second Age, and all of the maps basically represent Middle Earth in the Second Age at one point or another. And actually, thinking back. There's really only two maps. The one that was slowly revealed culminating in yesterday's map, and the map they revealed today which is markedly different and pre-Akallabeth.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:50
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Shibawanko posted:Sure but my impression is that it definitely got worse after, with movies like Dunkirk and Darkest Hour and so on, which this movie seems to resemble somewhat. This is VERY high-res: https://www.amazon.com/adlp/lotronprime?fbclid=IwAR0aNU6xey0wYM2bzLBFEVaWF3Qn0rU7kO453OJtFEcMjtENVkBMsi78Vyc
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Mar 7, 2019 19:26
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cheetah7071 posted:Do we know if the Tolkien Estate has buy in on this? Will they be allowed to use Aldarion and Erendis or will it be appendices only They paid the Tolkien Estate $250 million for the rights.
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Mar 7, 2019 19:31
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Cheer up guys, a month ago we were getting a Young Aragorn series. Imagine how bad THAT would have been. Frankly, the fact that we're getting almost zero overlap between this series and the Peter Jackson movies is amazing. (And this is coming from a big fan of the LOTR movies and a big hater of the Hobbit movies) Outside of Sauron, Galadriel, and Elrond....there isn't really any opportunity for "tie-ins" to the Jackson movies and that's pretty refreshing. If they're gonna fail, they're gonna fail on their own merit and not because they're trying to recapture the magic of a super successful film series.
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Mar 7, 2019 21:02
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skasion posted:It’s too soon to call the lack of overlap. The fact that they are (obviously obliged to be) marketing to fans of the Jackson movies could dictate a lot. I fear we are going to get more Alan Lee/John Howe artstyle at best. At worst, instead of trying to grab for the Jackson audience, they will grab for the Game of Thrones audience instead like everyone is joking about. I think I just mean, we're not gonna get like Aragorn shoehorned in to some larger story the way that Legolas was shoehorned into the Hobbit. The two maps correspond to the beginning and end of the Second Age, long before 95% of the characters from the 6 movies were even born.
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Mar 7, 2019 21:16
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Yeah I think they made the right move though. Because while that’s one way of looking at it, the other way is that the Second Age stories share some of the basic aspects of the generally known LOTR and Hobbit stories. General locations, the rings of power, the struggle against Sauron, etc.
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Mar 8, 2019 01:38
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Man I just thought of another thing that could be really cool to see, and that’s the Nazgûl as men. Several of them were Numenorean lords. That might be a fun thing to watch Sauron slowly suck the souls from them until ultimately taking the rings and enslaving them. Especially if we watch them turn from likeable characters to pure evil. And I know he’s been kind of overdone in the villain department, but I think I’d pay to see Jason Isaacs play Sauron.
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Mar 8, 2019 04:52
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Looks like meat’s back on the menu boys!
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Mar 9, 2019 00:32
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So what are the best source materials to brush up on the Second Age? I have most, but not all of the History of Middle Earth books. So I’ll need to reread Akallabêth, but what else?
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Mar 12, 2019 15:04
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Was anybody in Numenor even normal height?
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Mar 12, 2019 20:07
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So I picked up re-reading LOTR again the other day after stalling out at Christmastime around Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes. The writing is SO GOOD after Frodo, Sam, and Gollum leave Faramir and are marching to the crossroads and towards Cirith Ungol. You really get this feeling of impending doom with the way Tolkien describes how there are no birds or beasts or really any sounds, the days are nearly indistinguishable from nights, the thunder/earthquakes rumbling.
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Mar 13, 2019 18:54
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Sam does imagine that Orcs have been taking massive dumps in Shelob’s tunnel for centuries, based on the smell.
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Mar 14, 2019 12:09
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I was reading Shelob's Lair last night and busted out laughing when I got to this passage (if you've been reading this thread in recent months, you'll know why):Frodo posted:'Come! Let us see what Sting can do. It is an elven-blade. There were webs of horror in the dark ravines of Beleriand where it was forged.'
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Mar 14, 2019 13:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/23/tolkien-estate-disavows-forthcoming-film-starring-nicholas-hoult Translation: we didn't make any money off of this and we therefore would like to tell you how angry that makes us.
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Apr 23, 2019 14:52
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With the way the movie is structured though, it wouldn’t even make sense for Frodo to have a huge courageous character moment there. Frodo’s motivation for his heroics comes in Moria when Gandalf tells him “All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.” And to be honest, that moment is one of my favorite moments in all of cinema, so I think it’s worth Frodo losing his agency at the Ford.
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Jul 20, 2019 02:34
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skasion posted:Eowyn’s character isn’t “romantic interest”, Aragorn is at no point romantically interested in her. Wow, funny how you would judge a female character’s motivation based solely through the eyes of the man she associates with. “She isn’t this thing because the man doesn’t desire her to be that thing.” 
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Jul 20, 2019 14:37
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I think a huge part of the problem is the color correction in the films which makes everything not in the Shire look kinda drab. 
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Jul 23, 2019 04:08
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Shibawanko posted:I liked it when Old Man Willow got owned by Tom Have another drink, old man!
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Aug 7, 2019 16:55
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Alhazred posted:Its kinda funny how "warning beacons were totally a thing" is treated as some mindblowing factoid. The funny part is I remember back around when the movie came out some discussions about how the beacons were such an unrealistic thing. So yeah, that is something that needed to be said.
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Dec 7, 2019 17:06
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