Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

concerned mom posted:

Are the History of Middle Earth books worth buying? They seem like such a big cost but I've read everything else including hours on the Encyclopaedia or Arda and am basically a huge nerd who knows a lot about Arda.

If you've not read the History of Middle Earth you're not a huge nerd that knows a lot about Arda.

If you're a student of the process, they're an invaluable resource. If you're a student of the mythology, they're an invaluable resource. If you're just looking for entertainment, they're probably not worth it. The History of the Hobbit is fascinating for the same reasons, but it deals less with the Lore of middle-earth, so it has less value in that regard.

The Tolkien Professor podcasts really helped me understand things I never considered in The Hobbit before. I'd say listen to his Hobbit Lectures if nothing else. The Tolkien class has some value, except Jordan won't shut the gently caress up and is the biggest goon I've ever encountered.

Tom Bombadil is one of my favorite and least favorite parts of Lord of the Rings. I have a fond affinity to his chapters, but knowing they are an outside creation and inserted into the story roughly has soured my opinion on them.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2013 16:16

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 16:59

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

xcheopis posted:

Not at all. Cirdan is definitely older and Celeborn likely is as well. Probably quite a few of the Telari and Avari are older, actually and possibly some of the few remaining Noldor, e.g., Glorfindal.

You're right. Cirdan we know was on the Exodus from Cuivienen. He stayed behind to lead the hunt for Thingol when Thingol went astray. So it is common wisdom that he is the oldest. But we just don't know enough about the others to say for sure. Thranduil could have been part of the same exodus. We know Galadrial is younger and was born in Valinor because she's the grandchild of Finwe's second wife, which he got in Valinor. Celeborn could also have been on the exodus, though again we don't know the relative date of his birth.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2013 16:55

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Seaside Loafer posted:

Do expand if you have time.

In the Book of Lost Tales days, orcs were corrupted men. Then in the rewrites before The Hobbit they became corrupted Elves, and remained that through the Lord of the Rings. But late in his life, Tolkien wished to correct several spiritual issues with his legendarium. One of those was the fact that Orcs were technically Children of Iluvatar but seemed wholly evil, without the possibility of choosing to be good.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2013 17:55

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Nessus posted:

Sure, he certainly seemed to be fond of an idealized English society (if not completely blindly). But I think his work takes on a different tone, even without reading all his letters and poo poo, when you find out he was a WWI vet.

He also pokes no small amount of fun at Bilbo's idealized English upper-class self. And a bit at Frodo. Sam is, I think, where Tolkien's true heart lay.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2013 19:34

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

SHISHKABOB posted:

I'm not so sure about pride being the thing that Tolkien is making out to be the "bad thing". I say this because I seem to remember a lot of situations where characters or groups of people are described to be "proud", but I never felt like it was necessarily in a bad way. Like I'm pretty sure that the Men of Gondor are in general described to be a proud people, and maybe also the Rohirrim.

I do think that when people become too sure of their ability to control the corruption of the ring then that would be an example of pride being a bad thing in the books.

That's all just from memory though and I could be misremembering the times when the words "pride" or "proud" were used, and what the contexts were.

You can be proud of something without being prideful. Aule was proud of the Dwarves he made, but as an expression of his wish to emulate Iluvatar, and not his own pride. Feanor, on the other hand, was prideful in the work he made and not humble about the ultimate origins of his work (he did not make the light of the Trees which gave them their ultimate beauty).

I hate to go all wikipedia, but it makes the different most clear "With a negative connotation, pride refers to an inflated sense of one's personal status or accomplishments, often used synonymously with hubris. With a positive connotation, pride refers to a satisfied sense of attachment toward one's own or another's choices and actions, or toward a whole group of people, and is a product of praise, independent self-reflection, or a fulfilled feeling of belonging. "

In Tolkien, the latter pride is fine.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2013 21:48

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

paint dry posted:

Well folks, it's time for my biennial attempt to read these loving books, so here goes! I've made it through The Hobbit, which I love, but now I'm about to start LOTR so wish me luck. Once I even made it to The Two Towers!

On the subject of Tom Bombadil, I love that guy. His chapters are kind of dumb but I love the idea of a character so mysterious and powerful that even Gandalf and Elrond don't know what the gently caress. On the other hand I kind of hate all the rabid speculation about him. Tolkien himself went on record saying that he just shoved Bombadil in there because he liked him and the stories he'd written about him before. He's not supposed to be God or whatever, he's just some magical dude in the woods.

Have you considered the audiobooks, available from Audible.com or your local library?

What you're describing is the different between in-world analysis and external analysis. They're both valid. It's quite simple to understand that Tom Bombadil is an external creation dropped into the story who doesn't really fit. But once he's in there and you're doing in-world analysis, you have to find a place for him and justify his existence. However "it's an unsolvable mystery based on available data" is a perfectly valid point of view, even if I don't agree with it personally.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2013 18:54

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

It's almost like trying to match physical descriptions is the absolute last thing casting directors should worry about when trying to find the right person for the role, because the only people who really care are spergs on the internet. This is no less than people complaining that the Stark kids are getting too old on Game of Thrones. Who cares are as long as they good at the role?

# ¿ Mar 16, 2013 15:43

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

xcheopis posted:

"I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?"

In one of the History of Middle-earth books, Tolkien says that Frodo was permitted to pass over the Sea in part because the Ring had, to some extent or other, overthrown his mind. He did not, after all, relinquish it willingly; it was taken from him by force. He is allowed to go with the elves so that he might find true rest and balance before he dies.

One side effect of him going West is that he will actually die faster, which helps to prevent him trying to cling on to life like Gollum and Bilbo had.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2013 18:01

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Seaside Loafer posted:

Gollum finds the ring in 2463 and its destroyed in 3019 so he was 556! Id call that long life, not much of a fun one but still.

Its strongly hinted that all the great rings of power provided long life (apart from the 3 never touched by Sauron, and elves never needed that anyway) at the cost of gradually fading into a ghost instead of just dieing.

This of course is a main theme and where the Nazgul came from, they just wanted to live forever, as they were of the most part of the Numenor people who resented not being immortal like the elves.

In addition to the example of Gollum, we have the example of Bilbo. Bilbo ages very rapidly, but doesn't age very rapidly and then die. He may have voluntarily let his life go eventually, but a little trip in Valinor would speed the process right along. None of them could permanently cling to life, but they could live long past their natural end of life.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2013 20:01

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Seaside Loafer posted:

Im pretty sure he didnt even use the ring at all until Bree, just kept it locked up until Gandalf comes to visit.

Hobbitisess precious are longer lived than normal men, Pippin hadnt even come of age by the time he reached Gondor.

One thing ive always found annoying in the tolkien universe is there is zero description of where and what the hell hobbits are and where they came from. We know all about how elves men and dwarves were made but nothing on hobbits. All we have is some vauge references to where they used to live.

An elf and a dwarf loved each other very much.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2013 20:28

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

euphronius posted:

Hobbits are men.

Maybe in your head-canon. Not in mine.

Seaside Loafer posted:

There is some stuff where the elves are trying to convince the Numenoreans to stop being idiots before they just stop visiting altogether where they explain that taking over and living in Valinor would just make them die all the quicker not make them immortal because everything there is immortal. Something like 'your spirits would wane all the quicker'.

From the Akallabeth

"�The Doom of the World,� they said, �One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manw� that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, [b]as moths in a light too strong and steadfast[b].�"

Basically, there's too much holy for mortals to endure.

rypakal fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Mar 29, 2013

# ¿ Mar 29, 2013 20:52

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

nutranurse posted:

So what audiobook version of The Lord of the Rings do you guys prefer the most? I'm asking because I find myself doing work that... really doesn't need me to pay attention to it.

Since only one version exists, I prefer that one.

euphronius posted:

I finally found some textual support for my bald assertions. This passage is the Numenorians talking to the Valar through the Eldar as intermediaries:

Alternately, you could look halfway up the previous page.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2013 04:20

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

concerned mom posted:

Who is the oldest Elf still going? I guess presumably someone who crossed over the sea and stayed there in the first place?

You can make arguments for Cirdan, Thranduil, and Celeborn. Cirdan is the only one we're certain came from Cuivienen. I've sort of assumed that Celeborn is probably close in age to Galadrial, and we know she was born in Valinor, so she's nowhere near as old as Cirdan. Of course, there could be hundreds of elves like Thranduil who have have absolutely no idea how old they are.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2013 14:40

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

I've always figured that Legolas is really young, much younger than Arwen and certainly a third-age baby. (e: yes, I got the joke)

# ¿ Apr 11, 2013 15:07

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

concerned mom posted:

Ah awesome, I didn't know Cirdan was at Cuivienen. Is he older even than Elves that stayed in Aman? Like er Ingwe or someone?

Cirdan was on the march West, and stayed behind to search for Elwe (Thingol) while Olwe took the rest of the Teleri across the sea. We have no way of measuring relative ages before this time, but he's certainly in that batch. Thranduil also possibly could have been on that march. We know that elves dropped off constantly in the trip West, and surely the Greenwood would have drawn some of them. No reason Thranduil can't have been the leader then, but no proof of it also. Celeborn we know was in Thingol's court when Galadriel arrived there, but we don't know anything beyond that. Again, he could have been part of the group that stayed behind with Cirdan, or born later.

Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe are indisputably the three oldest elves, and Finwe and Elwe are dead.

One nice thing about the Noldor in MIddle-earth is that since the vast majority of them come from Finwe's second marriage, it's easier to date them and know they are younger than people like Cirdan.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2013 15:30

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Ungoal posted:

Anyone else wish their was more information on Ungoliant's backstory or what eventually became of her? She was neither Maia nor Valor yet her origins remain ambiguous, similarly to Tom Bombadil.

She was probably a Maia just like Tom, the Eagles, the Ents. Anything sentient in MIddle Earth is either Ainu or Child of Iluvatar

# ¿ Mar 14, 2014 10:22

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Catsplosion posted:

This is what I believe. Sort of like a natural being created by eru when designing arda.

Yes, called Maia.

Tom was the first. Maybe Ungoliant was the second. Then Melkor came along. Then those wannabe Valar showed up and started ruining all the fun. #historywrittenbythevictors

e: I do like the theory that Ungoliant was actually a Vala and that the Valar refused to tell the elves that.
e: Ainu or Children, that's all you get. Tolkien wrote himself into a fancy little box that makes creatures like Tom and Ungoliant (and the orcs in general) problematic. BUT WE CAN HAMMER THEM IN.

rypakal fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Mar 14, 2014

# ¿ Mar 14, 2014 18:17

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

If only we could scrub that one dude from the Tolkien class he did right after the hobbit lectures. You know the guy.

Silmarillion seminar really brought a lot of things to light. I'm waiting for his full and deep analysis of the History of Middle Earth

# ¿ Mar 16, 2014 21:36

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

radlum posted:

Did Tolkien ever write anything explaining the real life inspirations for some elements of Middle-Earth? I mean, Gondor is pretty much a version of Constantinople, but I'd like to know if Tolkien ever wrote about those parallels (I know he wasn't keen on allegory, but some similarities are more obvious)

No, he would rather readers draw their own parallels, as you have done.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 09:17

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Radio! posted:

I actually ran into this same question once with another ebook in old GBS. The mod told me since the book was readily findable on google it wasn't a problem to link. If Hieronymous Alloy feels otherwise though I'll take it down.

That's the oddest reasoning I've ever heard. Everything is readily findable on google.

Since you removed the link can you mention the source it was? I assume Letters but wanted to be sure.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2014 09:41

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

100YrsofAttitude posted:

Anyway my question is in regards to translations. I recently ran across the French version of the Hobbit and was already surprised to see the Shire called Le Comt�. Same thing happened in the subtitles of the French version of the film. Considering the weight and history behind so many names in Tolkien's mythos it's weird to think that every language around the world is only familiar with specific names. I'm curious to find out what the translations for other proper names were in other languages and how exactly Tolkien dealt with this, considering he was alive for most of the publications.

Well first you might tell us what the French name means to give us some context.

Second, Tolkien provided translations for place names in a bunch if different languages, though I'm sure some translators ignored him. He didn't necessarily think a place name should remain unmolested, because the place names often have meaning that's more important. So he would have been on board with the translation using a word describing a place like a medieval shire

# ¿ Mar 26, 2014 10:48

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Kassad posted:

Practically all the names of places (and those of a lot of characters) in the Lord of the Rings were translated into French when they were in English (or rewritten to look like the French spelling of Medieval English or German names). It's fairly appropriate since the book is supposed to be a translation in the first place.

A good example is that Tolkien would want Brandywine translated, but not Baranduin.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2014 16:16

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Hobbits are men who got smaller over a few thousand years from a writer who was not a Darwinian.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2014 14:09

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

euphronius posted:

Except there are tons of references to orcs "multiplying", Azog is the son of Bolg, and Saruman made new orcs.

It's a loving mess!

Saruman's orcs were very specifically orcs bred with humans and the logistics of that are either hilarious or deeply disturbing. I have almost entirely allowed the movie version to become my mental image of the how Saruman's orcs were created.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2014 21:17

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Levitate posted:

I kind of assume that mix was done like through test tube magic or something and not what would probably actually be rape now that I think about it even slightly because even if there are female orcs I'm guessing normal human men wouldn't be all into that

Futurama did an episode about that combination. The other way is pretty awful to contemplate. Particularly when you consider Galadrial's daughter.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2014 00:27

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Tolkien professor completely redeem my understanding of Eowyn.

And Balrog wings...

# ¿ Mar 29, 2014 04:36

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

100YrsofAttitude posted:

I can't remember if it's been said but I have a copy of Children of Hurin as well as the Unfinished Tales. Should I skip reading the Narn I H�n H�rin and it's notes and appendices? Will all of it be in the Children of Hurin. I'm prone to reading both if there's even one Note that's been changed cause I'm clearly that obsessive.

The Silmarillion, which I've just finished, is really much easier to read than I had remembered. It was an absolute, though enjoyable, slog back in high school. Today it was a very pleasant series of myths. I still wouldn't recommend to anyone without an interest in mythology or religious studies (I say this more in the stylistic choices "son of so-and-so"), but I would recommend with more ease than I have once before. I'd really love to see an adaptation whether cinematic or otherwise of the Silmarillion it's really quite the epic.

There are definitely process notes in the Narn which are valuable. If you were just reading for the story Children entirel supersedes it.

I have sitting on my shelf the book about the composition of the Simarillion. Need to read!

# ¿ May 20, 2014 03:49

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Gologle posted:

Yeah, but I think his son pretty much gave up his life so he could sort through his dad's notes. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

Christopher didn't give up his life. He had a full life that included a family and a career in academia that involved working with and translating ancient texts. At his fathers passing he inherited a steady stream of wealth which could have allowed him to retire in comfort at. 50. Instead he used his talents towards creating one of the most astounding pieces of literary analysis. An immeasurable gift to scholars and fans alike.

Brian Herbert used his father's name to sell his lovely Dune fanfic.

# ¿ May 28, 2014 09:50

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Tolkien essentially started with non-christian Northern myths and slowly over his life brought them closer to reality and to Catholic Theology.

It was both an understandable motive and a great tragedy to the inventiveness when he took it too far. (Losing the Tale of the Sun and the Moon entirely would have been the greatest loss, imho).

In the unfinished state a lot of things are in flux and unanswered.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 15:23

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

http://www.slashfilm.com/tolkien-biopics/

The money quote

quote:

�Lewis becoming the poster boy for Christianity upset Tolkien,� explained Wernher Pramschufer of Tolkien & Lewis producer Attractive Films. �And obsessive genius Tolkien is blocked, terrified of finishing The Fellowship of the Ring, for fear of the strange, psychotic visions which torture him.�

The first part is just factually wrong of course. Tolkien's objection was that Lewis didn't become Catholic. But the rest of that paragraph is just amazingly out there.

# ¿ Jul 17, 2014 13:50

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Is there a decent authoritative description of which texts are in which versions of The Lord of the Rings?

Wayne and Christina have some notes on their website. They indicate that the three-volume set sold with the Reader's guide has the original 50th anniversary text (but the reader's guide is updated), while the single volume 60th anniversary edition contains at least some further corrections. But the publisher says both contain the 50th anniversary text

And is it possible to even know which versions the kindle ones are based on?

Also I'm a little bummed that I just bought the reader's guide new and apparently only the boxed version is updated.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 13:56

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

redshirt posted:

This directly implies Melkor courted Varda, and she rejected him, before the Music. That alone is enough motivation to explain everything else Melkor does.

She rejects him because she can tell he's an evil shitlord. Once again you're blaming a woman for a dude turning evil.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 15:18

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Ynglaur posted:

Wow. For all the hand-wringing over "lack of female characters", someone goes and provides an(other) example of a female Tolkien protagonist showing greater wisdom than her male counterparts, exercising her free will in opposition to the will of a male, and you respond with this? Please tell me you're trolling.

The person I was replying to said Melkor did bad things because Varda rejected him. I was applauding her ability to read Melkor's jerkface intentions and disgusted by even the notion that his actions would be laid at her feet.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 20:25

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Nessus posted:

I'm shocked it took this long to release it, wasn't it his life work, academically?

Not really any more than his other translation work.

I really wish we could get thoroughly updated electronic editions of supplemental works. Would love to have a Readers Guide inline with the text of lord of the rings. I could make it myself if I had an ebook of the readers guide. Also why are only two volumes of HoME in ebooks. Stupid publishers take my money!

# ¿ Aug 6, 2014 12:50

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Tolkien wrote more scenes with believable and sympathetic female characters than Robert Jordan.

# ¿ Aug 19, 2014 04:55

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Ynglaur posted:

It would be hard to write less than zero. (Disclaimer: I never finished the series. I lost interest after the thousanth repeated scene in Book 6 or 7 or whatever.)

The gif above said it better than I did. Yes, he wrote less than zero.

e: Actually the female characters are the best ones in the series with most intersting stories.

Until they start thinking about, talking about, or being around men.

rypakal fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Aug 20, 2014

# ¿ Aug 20, 2014 15:09

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Legacyspy posted:

The Shire
Bree

We are told there lots of villages between Bree and The Shire which don't appear on any maps. My impression is of vast but spread out human settlements throughout the west and completely uninteresting to hobbits.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2015 19:44

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 16:59

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

SirPhoebos posted:

I reached the chapter with Tom Bombadil in my re-read and I had totally forgoten about Goldberry. I know that Tom has a status in the lore, but what about Goldberry? Is her background ever illuminated?

We are told that spirits (minor Maia) went into the earth and the rivers and the trees and the eagles. Goldberry is called the river's daughter. So she's either a maiar spirit or at least half. Like tom, she's taken from an external source where her presentation is very luthien-like.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 18:14

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way