Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

Nessus posted:

I think the idea is that the Numenorians were the descendants of Men who threw in with the Elves and Valar and got rewarded for being faithful to good instead of either joining Morgoth or just sitting in the woods with a thumb up their rear end. (Side note: Hypothetical alliance of neutrality between generic Men and the lazy-rear end wood elves...??)

Thanks to this divine favor Numenorians were like Humans Plus, tall and with extended lifespans, not like "forever" but "200-300 years." Presumably they increased on Numenor since it was literally raised from the deeps for their benefit and had no competition, so there were a lot of them. The big fleet that showed up and made Sauron's army desert him was probably all or mostly Numenorians. They had been involved with Middle-Earth well before then.

I think all the Numenoreans had extended lifespan but the battle of the last alliance was probably largely drawn from the guys who lived in what became Gondor, which had been settled by Numenoreans. I don't think Numenoreans had any superpowers beyond an extended lifespan and maybe being tall.

Also, their first king was 6/16ths Man, 9/16ths Elf, and 1/16th Ainu, and as his descendants intermarried with the rest of the Numenoreans, that Elvish and Ainurin blood also spread.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2020 23:47

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# ¿ Apr 20, 2024 06:29

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

Blood Boils posted:

Oh drat, I never thought of that, love it!

Thrain: "It took centuries of digging, but at last, we found it!"
Elvish Ambassador: "Found what?"
Thrain: "The Sim-er ah, Arkenstone! Ok good to see ya bye"

There are a few issues with the idea. First, Maedhros was much further west, probably somewhere near modern Lindon, when he took the Silmaril with him into the earth. Second, the Silmarils were hallowed "so that thereafter no mortal flesh [...] might touch them, but it was scorched and withered[,]" and as a mortal Bilbo definitely should've been burned when handling the Arkenstone if it was a Silmaril. Third, the Silmarils are made of some substance said to appear "like the crystal of diamonds [...], and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda." We are told that the Dwarves of Erebor worked facets into the Arkenstone, so it clearly cannot be of the same substance.

The first issue is easily handwaved as an issue of lava flows or perhaps a consequence of Eru's reshaping of the world at the end of the Second Age, but the issue of Bilbo being unburnt and the Dwarves being able to carve facets into unmarrable crystal are not so swiftly dismissed. Therefore, I posit that the Arkenstone is actually an accumulation of mundane crystal that has grown around the Silmaril of Maedhros during the thousands of years between its loss and recovery.

Anshu fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jul 11, 2020

# ¿ Jul 11, 2020 04:08

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

euphronius posted:

Is any elf still bound by Feanors curse.

Maglor, maybe.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2020 04:16

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

Arcsquad12 posted:

Granted the various elf clans are confusing as hell.

Others have already posted the charts and things, but one last thing I would point out is that the Calaquendi/Moriquendi is an individual trait based on whether or not you personally have seen the light of the living Trees, not an ethnic one. Elu Thingol, king of the Sindar, is Calaquendi because he saw the Trees; Elrond, despite the Noldorin blood from his grandmother Idril, is Moriquendi because the Trees were long dead by the time he was born, and still longer dead by the time he arrived in Aman.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2020 09:49

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

skasion posted:

The oath and the Doom are different things, and the Doom was for the massacre at Alqualonde as much as for the oath itself. the Doom was specifically targeted at the House of F�anor and �upon all that will follow them�. Which is susceptible of multiple interpretations, depending on how you take the word �will�.

And "follow," for that matter.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2020 20:02

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

Arcsquad12 posted:

I mean the precedent for elves with mortaliry had been set by Luthien and Earendil probably would have gotten the same choice as Elrond and Elros but he was turned into an ad-hoc celestial body before thst could happen.

Earendil explicitly did get that choice, and his response was "I'll go with whatever my wife chooses."

Anyway, if Earendil isn't a Noldo then neither is Fingolfin.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2020 23:49

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

I'm just saying, Earendil and Fingolfin have the same number of full-blooded Noldo parents: one.

# ¿ Sep 5, 2020 00:04

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

There's a reason they say "Be not afraid."

# ¿ Sep 9, 2020 03:22

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

euphronius posted:

His spirit is still in the world like a horcr...... Phylactery

I agree the little, scarred and burnt remains of Melkor are gone

Stick with horcrux. JK Rowling sucks, but that particular piece of her work doesn't have any unfortunate implications attached to it. Contrast that to the word phylactery, which associates a Jewish religious practice with evil and death.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2020 02:19

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

Arcsquad12 posted:

Actually you'll find that Faramir beating up Gollum saved middle earth because it let Gollum take over Smeagol again and convince them to betray frodo and therefore when he showed up at Mount Doom and fell into the fire it was all because Faramir acted as the catalyst for it all.

Faramir the true hero.

And thus evil shall be good to have been � yet still evil.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2020 22:08

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

Southpaugh posted:

Uhm sharpened steel blanks are industrial, impersonal and brutal not artisanal and poo poo like wot elves would do. So it's fine.

Nobody is saying that the look of the swords is the problem. The problem is that casting steel as depicted doesn't result in material strong enough to be used as a weapon.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2020 18:50

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

perc2 posted:

From Ar-P's perspective Sauron is just some rebellious would-be-lord he crushed[;] he has no idea Sauron is a Maia, etc.

Where do you get this idea?

# ¿ Oct 6, 2020 22:08

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

BigglesSWE posted:

Are there examples of characters influencing dreams like that?

Yes. In the Silmarillion, Ulmo sends identical dreams to two Elf-lords simultaneously to give them an instruction, and I'm almost certain he sends other dreams later on, but I can only think of that one definite example off the top of my head.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2020 10:18

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

Nessus posted:

If I recall, the elves knew when Sauron was about to pull this poo poo and enslave them and took off their rings, and it does not seem unreasonable that they suddenly heard that Annatar dude saying "THREE RINGS FOR ELF ETC." and someone wrote it down. It is even possible they took a minute to realize what was going on and get their rings off.

The "Three rings for the Elven-kings" verse cannot pre-date the creation of the One, nor can it have been part of the spell of the One's creation, because the whole point of Sauron's ring project was to use the rings he'd taught them to make to create a backdoor into the minds of the Elves. His plan was that all the rings would belong to elves. Humans and dwarves didn't come onto his radar until after that plan had failed, and Sauron had slaughtered the ring-makers and recovered the 16 rings made with his direct input.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2020 10:55

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

VanSandman posted:

Wait. Where are you getting this information?

The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

quote:

Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar,
having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride
grew apace. [...]

Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he
sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had
the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still
that of one both fair and wise. [...]

It was in Eregion that the counsels of Sauron were most gladly received, for in
that land the Noldor desired ever to increase the skill and subtlety of their works. [...]
Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge
was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had
contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But
Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire
was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule
all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it
and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will
of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very
great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;
and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while
he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means
of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that
wore them.

But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One
Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived
that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and
fear they took off their rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the
Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with
open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the
Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and
counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and
bore them away, and hid them.

Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the
greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire,
and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the
Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in
their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of
the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the
hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while
Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they
were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched
them; yet they also were subject to the One.

From that time war never ceased between Sauron and the Elves; and Eregion
was laid waste, and Celebrimbor slain, and the doors of Moria were shut. In that
time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was
founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured. But Sauron gathered into his
hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other
peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that
desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to
the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others
the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the
more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they
betrayed in the end all those that used them.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2020 21:46

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

Pham Nuwen posted:

"Phantom" is an apt word choice, in that we should remember what happened when George Lucas came and filled in some blank spots for a different beloved trilogy... I wouldn't read something set in Middle Earth that wasn't written by Tolkien, it just wouldn't be right and I guarantee you'd feel it from the first page. Either they'd imitate Tolkien, and it would feel like an imitation, or they'd abandon the style and have the Elves saying "gently caress" etc.

Other people's mileage may vary, but I find that the works of the fan author bunn, particularly their Return to Aman series (in which Maglor is pardoned at Elrond's request and allowed to come back across the sea with his foster-son, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo, and Frodo), does an excellent job capturing the feeling of the world without seeming to work at it.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2021 18:59

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

quote:

The Ainulindal� posted:

Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin posted:

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