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Thank you for pointing me here
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Apr 1, 2018 00:12
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Legit I'm a giant Tolkien nerd and had like 2nd most posts in the last A/T about Tolkien thread a few years ago.
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Apr 1, 2018 00:13
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:-Thematically, it further diminishes the supposed stakes and premise of LoTR. The Last Alliance beat Sauron when he had the Ring, which always sat a little odd with me (it's hard to sell the stakes as 'if the bad guy gets the mcguffin he will be unbeatable!' when the story begins with a reminder that he was literally wearing the mcguffin the last time he got his rear end kicked) and now it turns out that so did Ar-Pharazon. The Numenoreans defeated Sauron straight up under Ar-Pharazon because as of that time, they were the most powerful nation on the planet. Tolkien mentions that their technology and magical crafting surpassed the elves of the same period. Sauron's only hope was treachery, and Ar-Pharazon walks right into it. The Last Alliance was the remnants of Numenor, along with the largest Elven army fielded since the battles in Beleriand. That was also able to beat Sauron, though only after a WWI scale conflict that devastated the populations of the free peoples and permanently reduced the influence of the elves in Middle Earth. The reason Sauron regaining the Ring is such a big deal is in the late 3rd age, there is nothing left in Middle Earth that could stop Sauron, short of another invasion by the Valar. That is not going to happen since last time they sunk half a continent. Sauron had mostly regained his power as it stood, and regaining the ring would elevate him to a level that his remaining opponents could not challenge.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It really is kindof amazing the cultural shift that Jackson managed to accomplish with those films. I remember being the only kid in my grade school class who had even read the Hobbit. I had to drag people to see Fellowship. It really is, my dad and i were the only ones i knew who had read the books, and now I can make hobbit jokes and everyone gets it. The movies really are fantastic.
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May 4, 2018 20:31
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I love the first three movies and the books equally. I think Jackson made a lot of odd choices, as gone over here, but in the end the is no way to adapt the books to the screen without changing things, and the things he changed do not alter the story's main themes enough to bother me. After watching the commentaries I can at least understand what they were going for, and no movie or book or anything is perfect all the way through. The movies get so much right, and did such an amazing job paying attention to detail, that I can begrudgingly accept Sauron as an eye and elves at Helm's Deep, since hey at least their armor was dope. Faramir honestly does not bother me much at all, since he is so inhumanly perfect in the books that its a bit jarring. Moving his refusal of the ring to Aragorn made sense if you are trying to condense characters in a story where that is inevitable., and helps reinforce Aragorn's kingly nature since you can't use the million ways Tolkien beats the reader over the head with it in the books.
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May 25, 2018 15:43
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sat on my keys! posted:One thing I got pissed off at them changing in ROTK was the gate breaking scene at Minas Tirith. That poo poo was extremely good in the book and also seems pretty "cinematic" to my ignorant self. I haven't watched the commentaries - do they explain the decision making here? For the cinematic cut, a large amount of the poo poo that gets cut is because their decision from the beginning is they are going to focus on the Ring and its journey from the Shire to Mt Doom. This sometimes makes lots of sense, since as much as some of us may like Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Wights, you just cannot force that into movies. Other times it leads to some weird poo poo, as people here have already mentioned focusing on a character's "journey" is the source of Faramir's changes. They do try to hit as many of Tolkien's themes as they can, but sometimes do that by rearranging stuff or altering it. It's hard to show Gandalf's mere presence as inspiring people, but they do it by showing him rallying the troops on the wall, and then reiterate it with him bolstering the troops at the gate instead of just having everyone run away. They reduce the Witch King's role in the story since in the end, his main impact on the story of the Ring is stabbing Frodo, and then being stabbed by Merry. In a giant story filled with far too many characters to film, they had to make tough choices, and instead of the drawn out scene at the gate they cover that in a minute with an action scene of the trolls bursting through the gate.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:11
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poo poo like that is why I love those drat movies. They may not have batted 1000 on some of their choices, but they clearly gave a drat and always went above and beyond. I may have already mentioned it but the fact that the inside of Theoden's armor has a sun motif embroidered on it just encapsulates the overall attitude they brought to the movies. Hell they even did a bunch of elaborate embroidery on the nazgul robes because they were former Kings and thus should have kingly clothing. Details matter and they drat near hit all of them.
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Jun 5, 2018 01:47
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literally considered one of the most influential English language books, but really its just like ready player one
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Jul 3, 2018 00:52
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The Mouth discussion reminds me of something I hate about the movies: almost all the evil creatures being portrayed as complete monstars when there were plenty in the book who just looked like normal dudes. Counterpoint: The Mouth's design in the movie is loving dope as hell. Other than him who else do you think was overdone? The men who attack Rohan are shown, and the Haradrim and Easterlings are not shown as anything other than dudes with weird taste in fashion.
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Aug 3, 2018 16:38
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euphronius posted:A lot of Gandalf’s plans seem to basically come down to putting the right people in place and then hoping poo poo gets solved by providence At the same time he also is only there because he himself is the help god has sent and knows there is not any more coming. His decisions are made in that context. Tolkien really tries to walk a line between the Norse pagan idea of fighting in Ragnarok despite knowing you will lose, and the more Christian hope in Divine Providence no matter how bleak it gets. For all we know Gandalfs original plan may have been to just toss Frodo into the fires of Mt Doom, since in the grand scheme of things, it would be worth it.
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Aug 3, 2018 17:35
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euphronius posted:The gods are all up middle earth during the war of the rings besides just sending wizards 500 years ago or whatever It's closer to 2000 years before, and the whole reason is because the last time the gods directly intervened they sunk a quarter of a continent and probably killed hundreds of thousands of people in the collateral damage. The istari are the representatives of valar in Middle Earth, and it's explicit there will not be a repeat of the end of the first age.
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Aug 3, 2018 17:45
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When? What are you specifically referencing
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Aug 3, 2018 17:48
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Ok, I was thinking of direct intervention since the topic was Gandalfs plan to destroy the Ring. I had forgotten there we're hints of things like the above. The greater point was Gandalf was not going to have Orome show up and ferry the ring bearer to Mt Doom, nor was Tulkas gonna show up and chokeslam Sauron. He had to work with what he had in front of him, and there were no good choices.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:02
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Pham Nuwen posted:I realize this is the hot takes zone but I think Gandalf just punting Frodo into Mt Doom, 300-style, would be pretty out of character. Specifically I'd picture it being once he claimed it as his own and was revealed to Sauron, not like they finally get there and he gives him sweet chin music off the cliff. WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 3, 2018 |
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Aug 3, 2018 18:33
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Wasn’t Sauron ultimately pretty much correct in thinking that Mt Doom didn’t need to be defended because in the extremely unlikely event that someone actually made it there they’d never be able to destroy the ring? It's not Eru's intervention, it's Bilbo's act of mercy in sparing Gollum that leads to Gollum stealing the Ring and falling into a volcano.
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Aug 6, 2018 13:47
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euphronius posted:Gandalf’s sword really isn’t from Gondolin. That’s ridiculous. why would gandalf lie about it
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Sep 19, 2018 23:53
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euphronius posted:Oh sure. Actually it was real cool and good and seeing someone have the balls to actually do something interesting with lotr rather than just letting it sit static forever was dope and I hope we see more things like that. It's also a small part of the game really and if you are skipping out on Orc Murder Simulator 2017 cause Shelob can shapeshifting you're being a whiny baby.
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Sep 21, 2018 13:55
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Hot take: the game IDing some ringwraiths and tying them to the greater story was also cool and actually worked fine with the narrative.
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Sep 21, 2018 14:03
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cheetah7071 posted:I'm pretty okay with the franchise sitting static (especially if sexy shelob is the alternative). Not every popular franchise needs to be a forever franchise with new entries every year! Let this one lie, and put the creativity out inspires into new fantasy worlds Yet at the same time Tolkien himself envisioned people creating art and music based off his works, though i cannot remember if he ever commented on other people writing stories set in his world. Regardless, I do not think its crazy to say what draws all of us Tolkien fans into this is the world he built. The stories are good no doubt, but what keeps us coming back to discuss them is the world they are set in. People want to explore it more and develop it, and since Tolkien laid a rock solid foundation down, there is a lot of potential there. Nothing will ever supplant Tolkien's original works, but I love the world enough that I enjoy new stories set there. The Shadow of Mordor/War games are a cool side story written by people who clearly know the original works, cause they pull some deep cuts every now and then.
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Sep 21, 2018 16:16
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cheetah7071 posted:I guess I'll take the word of someone who played it over that eurogamer interview which made it seem like the writer fundamentally did not understand the work. I do know it's supposed to have fun gameplay which is ultimately the most important thing for a game It does weird things and confuses the timeline, but for a video game its a cool story and as a Tolkien fan I really enjoyed seeing people play with the setting and do something interesting, if odd at times. If someone were to write a novel I'd demand a far, far, far, higher standard of consistency and story.
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Sep 21, 2018 19:23
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Feanor's sons would have been all about it, and Celebrimbor was a descendant of Feanor.
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Sep 21, 2018 20:11
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euphronius posted:I may have missed it but there is also magic in speaking and its ability to enchant people and ward off evil. It's explicit with Saruman, the description makes it clear he is exerting his power to supernaturally affect Theoden and most of the others. Magic in the more traditional, folklore sense exists as seen in the mountains when Gandalf protects the fellowship but bemoans that he sent up a beacon to his location that other "magic" sensitive beings would see or hear. So while maybe they can indeed cast a fireball at some orcs, it's not a trivial thing to do and would just let the Nazgul zero in on them.
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Oct 5, 2018 14:08
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Ginette Reno posted:Unless Gandalf's abilities with fire are tied to Narya the ring of...fire. Though Gandalf is a Maiar so perhaps not. Obviously Balrogs are of the same kind as Gandalf and they can make fire on their own. And the elven rings aren't meant to be weapons of war. Still the wizard known for skill with fire having an elven ring called the ring of fire does make ya think. The power of Galadriels ring is pretty always referenced when talking about lorien itself. The whole hidden nature of it, they otherworldly procession of time, the trees with leaves int eh winter, etc is all implied to be her ring. I imagine the more mundane things like the cloaks and magical items are more traditional elven magical crafting. I've always liked how Tolkien created a system where a person can imbue their will into items via practical skill and create things that possess supernatural powers.
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Oct 5, 2018 16:41
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webmeister posted:Maybe the dwarves described it as having wings and that's why everyone was surprised when it showed up How dare you
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Oct 23, 2018 14:39
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BigglesSWE posted:Hey man, it looks cooler that way. This topic is literally delving too greedily and too deep
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Oct 23, 2018 14:45
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BigglesSWE posted:The Balrogs were Maiar, correct? Beings of same nature as Sauron and Gandalf, if I understand their origin correctly? Yes, they are Maiar so beings on the same playing field as the wizards and Sauron. Sauron would have to convince one to help him, since they shared the same boss before.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:56
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I loved how they did the moria orcs in the movies, with the implication that they worship the balrog and imitate fire and poo poo in their armor to try and look like it.
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Oct 23, 2018 21:16
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Ynglaur posted:The mountain probably said something like, "Those shadows don't really count as wings," and then it was on. they look cool as poo poo though
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Oct 25, 2018 15:10
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Electric Bugaloo posted:The balrog picks, petal from petal, until Gandalf is the nudest he is ever being. my man
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Oct 27, 2018 12:37
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What podcast is this?
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Jan 29, 2019 07:36
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skasion posted:LOTR literally positions the text of The Hobbit as a set-to-writing version of the semi-fanciful tales that Bilbo told his weird little circle of proteges about his expedition to Wilderland. Bilbo is therefore retroactively supposed to have been an untrustworthy narrator in The Hobbit. Frodo sees through Bilbo's ruse about the birthday present and gets the truth out of him. The Hobbit is presented in LOTR as a fictionalized memoir written within the real world of Silm/LOTR Middle-earth. None of this does answer the present issue of Sting's nature and origin though. Either Bilbo is wrong and is unreliably relating the story, or he is right and they did indeed find swords from Gondolin in a troll hoard. I know this was discussed before, but how while how unique would those swords have actually been, ignoring more elaborate history and just as "first age" elven swords. A whole bunch of elves lived through the first age, and would have had arms and armor from that period. Presumably as the war of wrath proceeded, even more were being made and lost, since the elves would not be staying at the front anymore and likely were based out of what would become the Noldorian holdings in Eregion. Once things finally ended its not like everything just disappeared, presumably a bunch of that same stuff got used in the Second Age and the Third. Given the propensity for Providence in LOTR, I could see an argument for those swords popping up from some long forgotten dragon or troll horde shortly before The Hobbit for them to find. I guess what I'm trying to discuss is if Elrond would be particularly moved to claim those swords as his own. Yeah they are from his place of birth but the Dwarves found them fair and square, and he has all kinds of old swords made by elven smiths in Rivendell. WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Feb 7, 2019 |
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Feb 7, 2019 03:14
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I thought so, I think its explicit that Glorfindel got out of the Halls of Mandos and is chilling with Elrond. Of course he ends up not doing much given the events of LOTR.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:36
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The war of wrath took 40 years. The issue would be if all the loot made it back to Angband or was instead claimed by some orc chieftain and moved to other strongholds closer to the Blue and then Misty Mountains. In the aftermath of Morgoths defeat poo poo was chaotic on both sides, and it seems they did not pursue fleeing orcs much. Orcs from eastern portions of Beleriand. may have been running to the Misty Mountains at the time the balrog was, and bringing treasure with them. Also one thing Tolkien never bothers to clear up is how exactly the acts of the Valar and Morgoth sunk Beleriand. Were they sinking chunks of it throughout the war of wrath, or was it some delayed cataclysm they decided to visit on the land after Morgoth's defeat? For example Morgoth uses Ancalagon and whatever burrowing worms Gandalf references to try and drown the Host, but the Valar stop it long enough win the war and evacuate the lands. Or was it only mostly sunk and Numenor's destruction finished the job? We have Feanors sons killing sentries and stealing Silmarils after Morgoth's defeat and they are standing in Beleriand when it happens. Obviously the intent is to leave the war of wrath largely untold to enhance it's legendary nature, but it does raise these questions.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:02
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Ginette Reno posted:I don't see anything stopping Ugluk from taking the weapons and holding them for Saruman. And Ugluk in particular seems like a step above your average Orc in terms of intelligence and bravery. That he still refused to take the weapons suggests at the very least a fear of them and possibly physical repulsion as well. It was a blanket order i thought. Saurman knows that sublte orders like "you can loot some of their stuff, but I want any rings" is just asking for trouble so he tells them to leave them untouched completely.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:24
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warbows have draw weights in the 100+ pound range, the Mary Rose bows were like 140lb draw weights. thats doing a row of a 100lb dumbell every time you shoot. a sword weighs max like 9lbs for some of the biggest practical zweihanders in the 1600s, and normal one handed swords top out at like 3lbs. Being strong never hurts, and only helps, but you dont need to be a barbarian. also it never makes sense that dwarves and hobbits use scaled down weapons. they are plenty strong enough to use full size ones, and it would be even more important for people with short arms to have longer weapons.
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Feb 17, 2019 07:30
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I am extremely on board with new and interesting attempts at using Tolkien's setting. What I am not into is rehashing bullshit or some lame rear end "The Adventures of Aragorn" prequel. I forgave Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War for a lot because they actually did something new and interesting with Tolkien. I don't think their specific path of filling in details Tolkien left unsaid is the way forward though. However taking the Second Age and just going ham is something I think would be super loving cool. The Second Age is so underrepresented that you could tell cool stories that are wholly independent of the greater narrative, but still carry dramatic weight and import.
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Feb 19, 2019 22:23
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that thread sounds lit
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Feb 21, 2019 00:35
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People literally cheered in the theater when Aragorn cut the guy's head off, I do not feel that it made him look like a wimp, it establishes the Uruk Hai as extremly dangerous, which is important for the drama of the next film. It is not Jackie Chan fight scene mastery, no, but it's fine and worked in with a bunch of fun battle scenes in a fun movie.
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Feb 23, 2019 12:42
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Yeah, and it worked really well and no one came out of the movie talking about how much of a pussy Aragorn was cause he got knocked around by Lurtz before easily killing him once it was a swordfight. Like yeah the guy who did The Raid would have done it better I guess. And someone earlier said the movies are visually boring which is just silly given the extents they went to with character design, sets, matte paintings, landscape shots, etc. Like 5 minutes before that fight you had the Argonath depicted with wide, slow, sweepings shots and detailed to include erosion showing the massive blocks that made up the statues.
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Feb 23, 2019 12:55
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You can spent all the money in the world on designing a set and it still won't look good if you don't know how to direct a camera. Attaching the clip so we are discussing the same thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlLC1kCH1ps The only way you can claim the audience is not impressed with the size of the Argonath is a tremendously uncharitable interpretation of this. The camera changes angle and perspective to gradually reveal the size of the statues. You progress from the reveal of the face of one of them, to a wide shot with the boats visible that makes them look kinda big, to the upward angled shot which is paired to the shot of the boats looking tiny at the foot of the statue. And then to hammer it home, you see the tiny boats on the river, and birds flying from their nests in the statues head, and they are specks.
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Feb 23, 2019 16:53
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