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Levitate posted:Yup Feanor was a prick silmarillion.txt
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Apr 12, 2013 19:59
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TildeATH posted:I'm surprised somebody still hasn't written LoTR or Silmarillion from the perspective of a Romantic Sauron or Morgoth. Sauron could represent the long-oppressed East and Orcs, it would be easy. Morgoth would be harder and would have to be Gothic Romantic as per Folderol. Okay, story time. Back in the middle of the Cold War a Russian dude translated the books but nobody was able to publish them for years due to censorship issues and bootleg handwritten copies were passed around for years. An officially published translation of The Hobbit and Fellowship were available in 1982 but the translation project was abandoned and no full publication happened until after the collapse of the USSR. A significant underground fandom grew up (basically LotR became the basis for Russian SF/F fandom the way Star Trek was in the US) and people sure as hell began writing fanfiction. Not only to complete the "incomplete" story but to to give backstory to the world - I don't know for sure but I bet Silmarillion was never available except as imported/smuggled English language editions. A lot of this got informally published and grew and was passed around as a side effect of the samizdat dissident movement. Anyway, some Russki had read Silmarillion and did indeed write a "dissident history" influenced by samizdat literature called The Black Book of Arda. I don't think it's ever been fully translated into English but this site was giving it a shot as of a couple years ago. More well known - and more available - is a dissident sequel to LotR called "The Last Ringbearer". Basically it tells the story of the aftermath of the war that got mythologized as the War of the Ring, from the point of view of a group of Mordorian refugees ("Orcs" being propagandized Mordorian humans) along with Faramir, who deserts to prevent Gandalf and the Elves from inflicting cultural and technological stagnation upon the world. Translation available as an ebook here. I've tried a few times to get through it but never managed it - the idea is pretty awesome but the story bogs me down in Umbar when the whole thing turns into a mediocre spy novel for a hundred pages or so. An alternative take is Jacqueline Carey's Banewreaker, an admitted Tolkien pastiche written from the point of view of a Morgoth analogue who isn't the bad guy he's been made out to be, but isn't squeaky clean either. EDIT: Beaten about the Carey book. Also, Tolkien's views on Orcs were pretty much continually changing, and he was never happy with their portrayal in the trilogy or his writings which were edited into Silmarillion, because as a Catholic he was uncomfortable with the idea of a whole race who were condemned to evil with no possible redemption. He never got around to solving that moral dilemma, though, so we don't know what he would have done if he had gotten to it. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 08:25
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There's a great conversation in RotK that Sam overhears when he's trying to figure out how to rescue Frodo, who has been poisoned by Shelob and captured by orcs. Two of them are talking about the "old days" and mention the "Great Siege" as if they were there. This is probably the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, where Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age. Three thousand years prior. They also talk about the Nazgul as Sauron's favorites "nowadays", implying that they remember a time before the Ring-wraiths were around. Since the Nine Rings were distributed sometime midway through the Second Age, that corroborates the dating and possibly adds at least a thousand years. So at least some orcs are old as hell, and possibly immortal if not killed by violence. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 09:27
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Levitate posted:Sauron was a captive at the time he made the rings. He basically was a huge dick while working under Morgoth and then when that poo poo all got settled he was put under watch. He fooled them into thinking he was "reformed" and made the ring in secret specifically so that he could get his dark lord thing going on again. I suspect he felt it was perhaps the only chance he had to get back on the old dark and shady side of things and probably didn't care too much about how much of himself he was putting into the ring if it meant his freedom. Nah, Sauron faked repentance when the Host of the Valar overthrew Morgoth but refused to go to Valinor and escaped in short order and went into hiding. He had already established his stronghold in Mordor when he disguised himself as Annatar and went to the Elves to teach them how to forge Rings of Power. That was about SA 1500.
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Mar 27, 2014 16:35
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Ynglaur posted:I personally consider Galadriel to be a major player. I think in many respects she embodies the entire story arc of the Noldor as a people. Galadriel's father was Finarfin, who stayed in Valinor. Her uncle Fingolfin was killed by Morgoth in single combat.  Agreed about her story being the essential Noldor one, though. Up to and including spending the Second and Third Ages mourning for the lost glory of how things used to be, and using her power including that of the ring Nenya, to physically impede the progress of time in her little corner of the world. Talk about pride.
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Mar 29, 2014 01:49
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euphronius posted:We are in Sauron's head for a brief moment. When is this?
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Aug 9, 2014 02:35
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From the TG pictures thread:atomicgeek posted:This article has Soviet-era Russian illustrations of Lord of the Rings in sort of Byzantine style. More galleries here, too. Neat stuff
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Sep 7, 2014 23:18
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neongrey posted:Such an amazing combination of funny and incredibly dated. In other words, a National Lampoon joint.
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Dec 12, 2014 17:28
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jivjov posted:It's Frodo's 33rd birthday (which the Hobbit equivalent of turning 18. Or maybe 21. Anyway, its a big Coming-of-Age milestone.) It's definitely his 33rd, because it's Bilbo's 111st, and together they are 144, which is the number of guests at the Party.
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Dec 18, 2014 07:45
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jivjov posted:Yeah, my parenthetical is comparing it to modern human age milestones. Yeah, I see that now. Sorry. Bilbo and Frodo are both 50 when their adventures begin. Frodo looks a lot younger though, due to the Ring's stretching him out the way it did Bilbo and Gollum. Edit: the Old Took had lived to 130, and Bilbo would be 128 when Frodo set out. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 07:49
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100YrsofAttitude posted:And despite all that she's no Feanor, that is she's not a rotten jerk. She'd make a great character study. She still exemplifies the fundamental flaw of Elves in the Third Age: due to their immortality, the Elves simply cannot handle a changing world. Instead they retreat to their sanctums (Lorien, Rivendell, Thranduil's halls, the Grey Havens) and try to pretend the world is the same as their glory days, and sing sad songs about how it's not. It's the use all three Elven Rings were put to - Elrond and Galadriel particularly. Cirdan was wise enough to recognize that his could be used for a higher purpose, but the other two are used to create hidden sanctuaries where even the flow of time passes strangely, because the Elves just can't deal with the world as it has become. I suspect Galadriel's temptation wasn't to rule Middle-Earth with the power of the One Ring. It was to return it by force to the way it was in the First Age.
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Dec 19, 2014 00:58
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Regarding Tolkien and race, there's also the fact that race was regarded pretty differently in England at the time - it wasn't just black, white, brown, etc. It was "the English race", "the German race", "the Jewish race", every country and culture - what we might today think of as an ethnicity - was considered to be a separate "race". The idea of the Welsh, Cornish, English, and Scottish people all living together on the island of Britain might easily inspire the idea of Stoor, Fallohide, and Harfoot Hobbits living together in the Shire. All Tolkien's Free Peoples had this kind of thing going on, too. The various western Mannish peoples all trace their lineage separately back to the three First Age tribes of Men who fought against Morgoth. The Elves have their various peoples categorized by how far they got on the journey to Aman before they called it quits or came back, and the Dwarves have seven distinct clans based on which of the Fathers they are descended from, who all live in different parts of the world. It's part of the paradigm of anthropology of Tolkien's era. We think differently about race today.
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Dec 19, 2014 18:41
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VanSandman posted:I choose to believe Gandalf knew how to make what we would think of as fireworks and Saruman grabbed a few and learned the explosives part but ignored the 'is pretty and blows up far in the sky safely' part. I have always thought that Gandalf's mastery of fire, both in explosive pine-cones and in pretty fireworks, was a result of his bearing Narya, the Ring of Fire. From a fantasy epic standpoint, what is the practical difference between gunpowder and sorcerous "blasting fire"?
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Dec 21, 2014 22:38
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Runcible Cat posted:Any random with the ingredients and the formula can make gunpowder? That's true in the real world, but in Middle-Earth it is a new, mysterious, awful thing that (along with all of Saruman's industrialization) is viewed with distaste at best and horror at worst by the author, and which no right-thinking character would make or use as a weapon of war. EDIT: I'm saying that from a thematic standpoint, they are the same thing. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 07:47
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Are you saying that the Red Book of Westmarch is not a reliable primary source? I think we should be told... Yeah, I doubt Aragorn would have given that land to Orcs.
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Jan 6, 2015 07:47
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Ynglaur posted:After reading The Silmarillion, you start to realize what a family affair the whole War of the Ring was. Sauron killed Galadriel's brother while he was a prisoner, for example. Her father was slain by Sauron's master, Morgoth. I know I've pointed this out before, but Galadriel's father Finarfin didn't come to Middle-Earth after the Kinslaying - he turned back and became king of the Noldor who stayed in Aman. Her uncle Fingolfin is the one who challenged Morgoth to single combat and wounded him seven times before being flattened. EDIT: Her oldest brother Finrod Felagund was killed by a werewolf in Sauron's dungeon during Beren's Quest for the Silmaril. Her other two older brothers were killed at the Dagor Bragollach. Also Thranduil's rule is over the Silvan Elves of the Woodland Realm (though he himself is Sindar). Galadriel's claim to rule is over the Noldor - she rules in Lothlorien as Celeborn's queen, not in her own right. (NOTE: I am wrong about this, they are co-rulers). As an aside, it's interesting that both major communities of Silvan Elves we know of adopted Sindar rulers - Oropher and Thranduil's line in the Woodland Realm and Amdir and Amroth in Lothlorien, later Celeborn and Galadriel. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 00:48
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Radio! posted:Elladan and Elrohir are about a century older than Arwen, but iirc isn't it sort of unclear whether they choose to go West with Elrond or not? They didn't go with him at the time, but it's not known whether they went West eventually or not. And technically maybe one of them should have become High King of the Noldor, but the reason Gil-Galad was considered the last High King is that after the fall of Eregion and the War of the Last Alliance, there really weren't enough Noldor around to organize into a kingdom. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 01:03
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Effectronica posted:I think Gildor's band, Galadriel, and Rivendell may be the only Noldor left by the War of the Ring. There were a long 3000 years for the survivors to sail westward. I had thought there were Noldor at the Grey Havens under Cirdan, but apparently they were all Sindar. Huh.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:59
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HIJK posted:That just means Galadriel owns even harder. It also means "gently caress Feanor", which is a good general guideline.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:49
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A betahobbit? What's a betahobbit got to do with my posting anyway? And can ye cook 'em?
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Jan 8, 2015 18:27
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Not just the War of Wrath, there have been multiple large and small apocalypses in Middle-Earth. The fall of Eregion, the sinking of Numenor, Moria, the collapse of Arnor and (slower but no less apocalyptic, I think) of Gondor. Even Smaug caused Dale to be a post-apocalyptic sort of area. The War of the Last Alliance effectively depopulated a big chunk of the region we're familiar with - removed the Noldor as a serious player. The whole history of Middle-Earth is a long series of events that cause advanced societies to revert to subsistence states. It's why the founding of the Reunited Kingdom at the end of LotR is such a big deal and a huge part of the theme of mourning the loss of better elder days. EDIT: VV Yeah I had forgotten about the Great Plague, too, thanks. VV Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 00:06
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SirPhoebos posted:There's got to be an alternative term for the setting trope because for better or worse 'post-apocalypse' brings to mind Mad Max, Terminator and Fallout when it could be applied to a much broader range of settings. There's no reason why a trope about the downfall of civilization has to refer only to 21st century western civilization.
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Jan 9, 2015 02:29
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Yeah, Aulë himself also defied the will of Ilúvatar when he created the Dwarves, so a rebellious streak in his Maiar isn't totally a surprise. They weren't the only ones though - Ossë was Ulmo's vassal, and he went bad for a bit.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's still interesting to try to come up with in-narrative explanations though. If nothing else, constant war and Sauron's maleficent influence could have played a part. Maybe the Dark Lord was magically spreading disease and supressing birth rates. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Great_Plague
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Jan 22, 2015 16:46
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There's real-world precedent for a "real" place becoming the concept of Hell. The Jewish concept of Gehenna is thought to have grown out of stories told about the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem. IIRC it AAS the equivalent of a flaming trash pile. Morgoth's fortress of Utumno/Udun being the metaphorical equivalent of Middle-Earth's Hell is something I could see Tolkien modelling off something like that.
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Mar 26, 2015 14:34
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Dennis McKiernan?
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Apr 5, 2015 05:44
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AnonSpore posted:That's the one. Were they any good? Never read them, but his "Once Upon a Winter's Night" was decent. Not great, but decent.
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Apr 5, 2015 06:34
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euphronius posted:The pukelmen. That's what they called the statues. The dudes were the Drúedain.
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May 8, 2015 05:55
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Thunder Moose posted:Exactly what species did Morgoth corrupt to make the dragons and drakes of M.E.? I don't think there's any definitive answer for your first question. The precise origin of Dragons, Orcs, Trolls, Fell-Beasts, etc were never pinned down. Even the stuff in Silmarillion is just what the Elves think. I thought Thranduil's scars and dialog in The Hobbit movies were simply meant to indicate that he'd been on the bad side of a run-in with a Dragon at some point in the past, meant to justify why he refused to go up against Smaug in Erebor.
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Jun 30, 2015 06:34
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SirPhoebos posted:I got a crop question: Tea, tobacco, potatoes, etc are all part of Tolkien's idealized notion of what is "Britishness", despite the fact that they're all adopted crops. Hobbits represent that ideal, so they grow them. I don't think it's more complicated than that. EDIT: There's also a reference to "cold chicken and tomatoes" in an early edition of The Hobbit that Tolkien later changed to "cold chicken and pickles", so it's not like he was unaware of the issue. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 04:15
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VanSandman posted:Driving is a thing you can do with carts! Sam drove the cart with all the furniture, for example. Thought that was Merry?
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Jan 9, 2016 15:56
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I met a strange lady, She made me nervous. She took me in, and told me "In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”
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Jan 10, 2016 16:55
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Ynglaur posted:Was Thranduin Noldor? I can't remember. Sindar. Made king of the Silvan Elves of the Woodland Kingdom because there's a strict hierarchy of which elves are Better, and if a Better Elf is living among you, why, he's just naturally going to be in charge. The natural order of things. See also why Lothlorien, originally a Nandorin realm, was ruled by a Sindar and a Noldor. Them poo poo-tier elves just know their place.
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Sep 30, 2016 05:34
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Ynglaur posted:I thought Celeborn was later retconned to be Noldor, and came over with Galadriel rather than hooking up in Doriath. Unfinished Tales has him being Teleri, but in Silmarillion he's listed as Thingol's great-nephew or something.
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Sep 30, 2016 12:10
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skasion posted:In "Morgoth's Ring" Tolkien says that Saruman bred "man-orcs large and cunning, and orc-men treacherous and vile". My suspicion would be that the former are the fighting Uruk-hai, and the latter are like the ruffians that help him take over the Shire, but Tolkien doesn't explicitly say this. In general though the Uruk-hai don't seem much smarter than regular Orcs so much as more professional -- and after all Orcs aren't necessarily very stupid to begin with. Nothing really suggests they're necessarily intellectually inferior to men, just without any intellectual culture or respect for intellectual pursuit. Saruman had his breeding operations, and certainly did employ Uruk-hai, but the Uruk-hai (and Olog-hai Trolls) were bred by Sauron in Mordor to be larger, stronger, and more resistant to sunlight when Sauron's will was laid upon them. They first appeared in the sack of Osgiliath in the late Third Age. Saruman no doubt improved upon the breed, but they were originally a Mordor creation.
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Jun 30, 2017 05:22
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:There's an Uruk-Hai in Mordor who says "I'll have your number and report you!" So they had a pretty sophisticated record keeping system. Think of all the Uruk-Hai clerks keeping lists and ledgers and writing out reports. Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics.
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Jul 3, 2017 19:47
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Kilson posted:loving iTunes. Is there any way to get that to work in Android? I use PlayerFM and found "Tolkien Professor" using the search function in that app, but I haven't tried to actually play any of them yet.
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Jul 18, 2017 03:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That guy is gonna die of old age before he gets to the balrog but yeah I want to hear his opinion on balrog wings I've gone back to the beginning of the whole podcast - 7 years or so ago - and he dedicated a whole episode to this question and "What is Tom Bombadil". His opinion: Balrog wings: No...... What's Tom: Ainur.... As an aside he started out super-analyzing The Hobbit and he mentions that Peter Jackson's upcoming movie (singular, hah) would probably fail for pretty much the exact reason it did - rock and a hard place trying to make it epic like LotR or being true to the light-hearted tone of the book. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 02:32
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:Thank you for saving me from untold hours of wasting my time with bad opinions. He's right about that, fight me. (but he's wrong about Bombadil)
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Jul 22, 2017 04:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:this is exactly wrong I agree. Was I unclear? Hobbits are hardly immune, though - just more resistant than most because of their humble nature. Remember of four Hobbit Ringbearers, three fell under it's influence to a greater or lesser extent. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 08:15
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