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Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Speedball posted:

Never actually played Age of Wonders, though some have said it's kind of a magical Master of Orion or other 4X game. How robust is its replayability? Like victory conditions, faction differences, etc? I've burned through Endless Legend, Civ V, Civ BE in the past year.

I'm guessing it's pretty good, I guess, and that steam sale is tempting, as all steam sales are.
There's 9 races and 7 classes, all of which change your and your opponents' tactical and strategic playstyles drastically. On top of that you also choose 3 specializations, with varying degrees of impact. AI behaviour and attitudes also change based on their loadouts.

There's three main victory conditions: murder everyone (bit more complicated than that), seal (control point) victory, and the new unifier (cultural) victory. Murder everyone is always on but the others can be toggled, and they're all tweakable (allied victory, allow surrender, number of seals etc). You can turn on everything at once, I usually do.

There's premade scenario maps, four campaigns, a mapmaker, and a very, very good random map generator with a lot of map options. The AI is Good.

Someone playing the same map with the same character loadout will still have multiple approaches available due to empire quests, the new racial governance stuff, vassal quests, global events etc.

More info on all of this in the many many links on the OP.

Splicer fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Apr 16, 2015

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Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

madmac posted:

My general advice, if you're looking for a challenge is to play King and then adjust up and down from there depending on your preferences.

Basically it works like this:

Squire: Gimped
Knight: "Fair" Still wimpy
Lord: Cheats a little
King: Cheats a lot
Emperor: Cheats like a Mofo

King is the middle option for the challenging modes so it's the easiest one to go up or down from, assuming you're already pretty experienced. If you're relatively knew to the game start with Lord instead until you are comfortable with it.

To expand a little bit, King is the highest difficulty you can play on and play reasonably normally instead of having to go balls out 1000% aggression on every single AI on the map. The ridiculous economic advantages of Emperor means that letting one live relatively unmolested for 60 turns means you'll turn around and see a zerg rush tide of T4s barreling down at you from all directions. It's still totally 100% winnable if you really know what you're doing and have a solid gameplan, but it generally involves exploiting AI quirks or leapfrogging off of early power boosts(T3 units from inns, etc) to quickly wipe out multiple opponents because you really cannot possibly sustain a prolonged multi-front war on this difficulty, no matter how good you are, due to simple math.

So basically if you're new play on Lord and once you get an idea of what you're doing turn it up to King.

a!n
Apr 26, 2013

Kanos posted:

To expand a little bit, King is the highest difficulty you can play on and play reasonably normally instead of having to go balls out 1000% aggression on every single AI on the map. The ridiculous economic advantages of Emperor means that letting one live relatively unmolested for 60 turns means you'll turn around and see a zerg rush tide of T4s barreling down at you from all directions. It's still totally 100% winnable if you really know what you're doing and have a solid gameplan, but it generally involves exploiting AI quirks or leapfrogging off of early power boosts(T3 units from inns, etc) to quickly wipe out multiple opponents because you really cannot possibly sustain a prolonged multi-front war on this difficulty, no matter how good you are, due to simple math.

So basically if you're new play on Lord and once you get an idea of what you're doing turn it up to King.

I do none of these 'exploits' or inn rushing and beat emperor AIs every game. You just can't waste time, which is a bit of a no-brainer really.

I also seem to have no problem keeping up with AI economy once I've killed one or two.

a!n fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Apr 16, 2015

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011
Found a mythical tier Effigy of the Lich King jewelry item.

It gave heal undead, that's it, I could craft the same thing for 100 mana and not have it take up a jewelry slot.

Delacroix
Dec 7, 2010

:munch:
The unifier victory is no pushover, I think I prefer killing everyone from the get-go than dealing with unifier. It shares more in common with a civilisation science victory than anything else. That is, once people know you're going for it in civ, they're going to try kill you.

Finishing a beacon summons 3 stacks of hostile T2 & T3 independents that will simultaneously attack the city one turn later - building it far away from everyone else (who may also declare war) won't save you. Having a garrison that can handle 5-6 T3 fliers with cavalry and ranged support helps but enchanted walls, tower attacks and some battlefield debuffs or Disintegrate spam will even the odds. Once that's taken care of, you should pro-actively kill incoming stacks before they can huddle up in your domain.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

a!n posted:

I do none of these 'exploits' or inn rushing and beat emperor AIs every game. You just can't waste time, which is a bit of a no-brainer really.

I also seem to have no problem keeping up with AI economy once I've killed one or two.

Do you autoresolve a lot? I picked up the habit of autoresolving like 95% of my creeping/clearing from a rash of multiplayer games with my friend in the early days of AoW3(ain't nobody got time to watch somebody else laboriously clear a flowstone quarry for the 40th time) and I never really dropped it, which means I take a shitload of early casualties and losses that could otherwise be prevented, especially when I'm playing an autoresolve unfriendly race like gobbos or the two new guys. This tends to hitch up my early economy a bit since I have to waste turns replacing troops instead of snowballing, which has ramifications for how fast you can knock out your immediate neighbors and take their poo poo(which is what helps to equalize the economic bonuses, because you're stealing the fruits of their boosted economy).

By AI "exploits", I'm mostly referring to understanding how the AI is going to act in a given situation(mostly their berserker lust for a kill at any cost) and exploiting it in ways that you couldn't against a person.

Lobsterpillar
Feb 4, 2014

John Charity Spring posted:

Necromancer Goblins are so much fun. Best swarm darters in the whole drat game. I'm having a hell of a problem fighting shadow stalkers though - blight immunity and frost protection makes them a right bastard for almost anything I can produce. Spirit damage seems the best bet, but...

You know you can summon Banshees, which have a really hefty spirit attack right?

CommissarMega
Nov 18, 2008

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Voyager I posted:

From messing around a bit, it feels like Goblin Warlord is actually really good. The cost reductions stack linearly (making them proportionally more powerful), so you end up with 1 turn Swarm Darters as soon as you finish your Builder's Hall and 1 turn Butchers/Wargs/Monster Hunters shortly thereafter. Butchers in particular make an amazing meatwall to hide your rear end in a top hat ranged units behind and are more than capable of holding their own head-on against other T2s thanks to solid all-around stats and lifesteal, even completely ignoring what they do to Cavalry. Being able to start spamming them on like turn 9 while already having a solid count of Swarm Darters behind them can get scary very quickly.

Human Dreadnaught for me, is top class; if you can turtle until you reach Tier IV RG (and if you can't turtle as a Dread, I don't know how I can help you, son), the world is your as you poo poo either top-tier Musketeers (i.e. Der Wehrmacht :godwin:) or hordes of them with your massive production bonuses (i.e. Glorious Mother Russia :ussr:). Another good Human combo for is is Human Warlord, if you're of the opinion that the best offense is a good defense.

Delacroix
Dec 7, 2010

:munch:
So grey guard human dread wasn't as great as I thought it was. It takes too long to get T4/T5 RG bonuses for starters! Seriously, you can bring on armageddon or age of magic by that point. Might as well get a dwarf dread and aim for meteoric armour.

The Scales of Fortune spell (+100% crit chance) in Greyguard spec doesn't apply to machines but Shield of Dispassion does, albeit only the +1 res. I kinda wish Dedicated to Neutral would apply to machines seeing how summoned units do but expert/elite golems still look respectable with 30 defense and 19 resist on guard that costs 80 hammers to produce. I think dreads can start looting mythical treasure sites the fastest and safest now, non-buffed golems are extremely powerful early game units.

One good thing about grey guard dread are focus chamber cities for triple damage channel archers. Scales of fortune (140 research) is a huge force multiplier and due to Suppress Nature (220 research), archers, priests and musketeers will be erasing units with crits more often than not. Grey guard will probably work well for halflings or archdruids for the same reason.

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe
I'm looking into making things like Scales Of Fortune and the other alignment setting spells just affect machines. Dreadnaughts tend to get left out of the fun stuff too much, and banning machines from those spells just makes the specializations no use for Dread.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸
For a lot of that stuff it could be argued that the benefits/negatives should apply due to the invisible stalwarts crewing the machines being affected.

On that note, I always thought it wound be neat if losing a machine had a chance of netting you some kind of scrubby "Machine Operator" unit.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011
Does the shadowborn dedicated to evil lifestealing stack with the necromancer all undead gain lifestealing for lifestealing x2?

Korwin
Jan 24, 2011

Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

Does the shadowborn dedicated to evil lifestealing stack with the necromancer all undead gain lifestealing for lifestealing x2?

Good question, want to know too.

Another one, is there any downside for an Necromancer to not plunder an City and raising it with the spell?
Looks like free Money.

madmac
Jun 22, 2010

Korwin posted:

Good question, want to know too.

Another one, is there any downside for an Necromancer to not plunder an City and raising it with the spell?
Looks like free Money.

Lifestealing never stacks. (Though lifestealing does stack with Life Drain)

As for plunder, it gives you evil points and costs quite a bit of population and can destroy random buildings. It's still a good strategy generally for Necromancers but there are downsides.

madmac fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Apr 16, 2015

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011
I hope next patch goes over the new items that are a bit out of place in being bad, like the top end mythic tier lich effigy jewel that only has heal undead on it or some legendary tier lightning wand that does the exact same thing the sorcerer starting weapon does.

I did like the new chest armor that had path of blight+blight concealment, was visually pretty nice to see the path of destruction behind the army.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

I hope next patch goes over the new items that are a bit out of place in being bad, like the top end mythic tier lich effigy jewel that only has heal undead on it or some legendary tier lightning wand that does the exact same thing the sorcerer starting weapon does.

I did like the new chest armor that had path of blight+blight concealment, was visually pretty nice to see the path of destruction behind the army.

There's also a helm that gives you the Frost Queen's Expose ability.

Except if you don't have frost immunity it inflicts the 40% frost weakness and -1 Res. And also damages you.

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

Zore posted:

There's also a helm that gives you the Frost Queen's Expose ability.

Except if you don't have frost immunity it inflicts the 40% frost weakness and -1 Res. And also damages you.

Frostling heroes are immune as well. Someone asked me to fix that, but I had a look and I can't really do much with it, so we're just gonna leave it as is. It's a bit sucky from a gameplay perspective, but from a lore perspective it make sense that wearing a crown stolen from a frost queen would be a terrible idea.

Carnalfex
Jul 18, 2007
Maybe toss some cold resist on it? Maybe it already has that, I haven't seen the item. It does sound worse than useless for almost every race though. Getting that as a reward would be a sad day.

Does anyone else feel like necro games are won or lost in the first couple turns based on whether you get a second necro hero or not? It seems like a tremendously huge deal. At least against significant opposition when every turn matters.

I get that necros are supposed to be the new superdreads in terms of terrible strategic problems and tactical power, and that is cool. The mechanics seem to work fine as long as you can be sure to get the kind of hero you want, which you obviously can't do. The new system helps but the chance to get what you need is still fairly slim and it actually matters. Other classes can get by with any hero especially now that all hero classes are cool and good. The necro really can't at least until they get a couple little shoveldudes out.

Actually......Maybe whispers of the fallen can help here? You were looking for ways to buff it, what about it tossing some minor healing to random friendlies within the area it affects when it goes off, and let it trigger on your own combats? It would probably still need an upkeep reduction to be useable though?

I do really like the way the necro plays! They have a really important hero with disposable hordes of minions to throw out front if you go support, or a doomslinger if you build for combat.

Carnalfex fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Apr 16, 2015

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

I hope next patch goes over the new items that are a bit out of place in being bad, like the top end mythic tier lich effigy jewel that only has heal undead on it
Add raise cadaver, job done.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Carnalfex posted:

Maybe toss some cold resist on it? Maybe it already has that, I haven't seen the item. It does sound worse than useless for almost every race though. Getting that as a reward would be a sad day.

Does anyone else feel like necro games are won or lost in the first couple turns based on whether you get a second necro hero or not? It seems like a tremendously huge deal.

Having a second Neco hero helps a lot. But there are a few things you can do to mitigate that. I've found if you can get an Archdruid, and find a bandit camp and farm or two, you can set up a second stack of converted animals/living tier 1s that can clear easy poo poo until your reanimators come online. Especially if you can get some Tigers/Spiders/Dwarf units. You can also add in Lost Souls since they come back to life if they die anyways, so having them suicidally flank stuff can let you easily exploit some AI quirks.

I kinda think an ideal solution would be to replace the guaranteed starting cavalry unit you get with a Reanimator. Or a free heal undead item on your main hero you can give to the first hero you hire. Without either of those, or getting absurdly lucky with farms/bandit camp spawns, you have a really rough time in the early game.

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

Carnalfex posted:

Maybe toss some cold resist on it? Maybe it already has that, I haven't seen the item. It does sound worse than useless for almost every race though. Getting that as a reward would be a sad day.

Does anyone else feel like necro games are won or lost in the first couple turns based on whether you get a second necro hero or not? It seems like a tremendously huge deal.

Fine! We'll put 200% frost resistance on it. People on the main forums aren't that happy about the mythical frozen sucks-to-be-you crown either :)

Also, while having a second necro hero is very handy, I never really had a problem without them, I just shoot straight for reanimators. Another trick is to level up your leader, grab the control undead ability, then raid a Necromantic Circle or Lost Library. If you're lucky, you can get a free reanimator via mind control.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Zore posted:

I kinda think an ideal solution would be to replace the guaranteed starting cavalry unit you get with a Reanimator. Or a free heal undead item on your main hero you can give to the first hero you hire. Without either of those, or getting absurdly lucky with farms/bandit camp spawns, you have a really rough time in the early game.
These both sound like good ideas, especially the first one.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Lobsterpillar posted:

You know you can summon Banshees, which have a really hefty spirit attack right?

Yes. I also have 70 casting points right now and so I've got a 1.5 turn summon time for each banshee assuming I do nothing else with the casting points, and multiple stacks of shadow stalkers coming at me immediately which need dealing with by armies that only have one banshee in each. Which all adds up to having a hell of a time dealing with them.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Gerblyn posted:

Fine! We'll put 200% frost resistance on it. People on the main forums aren't that happy about the mythical frozen sucks-to-be-you crown either :)

Also, while having a second necro hero is very handy, I never really had a problem without them, I just shoot straight for reanimators. Another trick is to level up your leader, grab the control undead ability, then raid a Necromantic Circle or Lost Library. If you're lucky, you can get a free reanimator via mind control.

Have I told you how happy I am Death Bringers are not immune to mind control and are in tons of tombs?

Being able to start a zombie apocalypse if you can get a single unit with control Undead is fantastic. And it even helps Necros since you can snag them way, way before you can build them.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Gerblyn posted:

Fine! We'll put 200% frost resistance on it. People on the main forums aren't that happy about the mythical frozen sucks-to-be-you crown either :)
Add fire vulnerability for balance :unsmigghh:

Any plans for the lightning stick?

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Zore posted:

Have I told you how happy I am Death Bringers are not immune to mind control and are in tons of tombs?

Being able to start a zombie apocalypse if you can get a single unit with control Undead is fantastic. And it even helps Necros since you can snag them way, way before you can build them.

Grabbing an Archon Titan is also excellent fun.

Mayveena
Dec 27, 2006

People keep vandalizing my ID photo; I've lodged a complaint with HR
As we were just discussing, the ones you've burned through Speedball are empire builders and this is not. If you want something more on the empire builder side, try Eador. AOW3 is an excellent game, the class/race variety will give you a ton of replayability even absent the random maps. But it has a lot more tactics than Endless Legends, and I would say it's not only closer to XCom but to Total War as well.

e:oops, didn't realize I'd missed a page.

Carnalfex
Jul 18, 2007

Gerblyn posted:

Also, while having a second necro hero is very handy, I never really had a problem without them, I just shoot straight for reanimators. Another trick is to level up your leader, grab the control undead ability, then raid a Necromantic Circle or Lost Library. If you're lucky, you can get a free reanimator via mind control.

The thing is that shovelmans don't hit the board until turn...eleven? Maybe a little more? 3 to research souls, 6 for shovels, and 2 to build the first one. Those numbers can be affected by your start a bit but seem pretty normal. This also means you need to have the first necro building done by then and money to spend on shovels, which is easy but absolutely vital and even a single turn delaying it in your build queue puts shovelmans even further behind.

The glee with which every other class gobbles up a theocrat or druid as a secondary hero for the early healing alone is a real thing. A necro's only hope is another necro hero, full stop. By the time shovels are online you are getting into the midgame or possibly getting ready to kick down your next door neighbor's door. If you didn't start with a #2 right hand coffin botherer though, you get to make sad faces and spam end turn, probably praying your neighbors took a lot of crucial early losses to take heat off of you.

The embalmer's guild helps if you sit in base, but every turn you sit in base with your army is a turn someone else is getting extra money, exp, hero items, or just running straight towards you if they got lucky with early inns and rewards to swell their ranks enough.

It isn't the end of the world and there are ways to help it a bit if you get lucky (inns, charm) but it really is a major disadvantage against any opponent that is actively trying to win. The game doesn't have any sort of steamroll checks or comeback mechanics like civ warmonger penalties, or even encouraging weaker players to ally against a stronger one like total war does (the AI will actively capitulate if you become stronger and beg to be your friend even before you force a surrender). That is fine, but it means early game advantage is kind of a big deal.

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

Carnalfex posted:

The glee with which every other class gobbles up a theocrat or druid as a secondary hero for the early healing alone is a real thing. A necro's only hope is another necro hero, full stop. By the time shovels are online you are getting into the midgame or possibly getting ready to kick down your next door neighbor's door. If you didn't start with a #2 right hand coffin botherer though, you get to make sad faces and spam end turn, probably praying your neighbors took a lot of crucial early losses to take heat off of you.

The issue is that your focusing entirely on one negative aspect of the class, and barely paying any attention to all the positives you get to help balance out that negative:

1) Lost souls, you want to get one of these in your clearing army asap. It can run interference, and basically kill itself once in every fight to take the heat off your other units. If all else fails and you somehow manage to get it permanently killed, you can just summon another within a turn
2) You can summon a free cadaver in every single fight, which you can once again use to distract the AI to keep your ghouls alive, or as a scout/
3) At level 3 your leader gets Control Undead, which lets you mind control a big variety of powerful units which are scattered around as independent guards. You can get free Wights, Death Bringers, Reanimators and Carrion birds from common sites that are everywhere.
4) At level 5 your leader gets Lesser Reanimate Undead which lets him flat out bring back a unit from the dead every fight
5) Dead cities can hurry production without a happiness penalty, meaning you can happily hurry everything you can get gold for without crippling your economy like every other class would if they tried that.

Finally, as a Necromancer your starting army is 30% more valuable than those of the other classes; you have a much higher chance of starting with a tier 3 unit, and if you don't you're going to have a lot more support, archers or cavalry, and a lot fewer cheap infantry and irregulars. This isn't explained anywhere, since it was added quite late to make the Necros slow start easier for new players, so you probably didn't notice that.

Now having a second necromancer does help immensely, but I think saying "you are doomed to lose if you don't have one" is pure hyperbole. You just need to make use of the many strengths the Necro has to help counteract his main weakness.

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

Splicer posted:

Add fire vulnerability for balance :unsmigghh:

Any plans for the lightning stick?

I'm not allowed to change the lightning stick, it's apparently scattered all over the campaign and changing it's stats could have unforeseen repercussions. Same reason I wasn't allowed to add Fear Strike to the Dread Spider mount :( I fixed the Effigy though, it has Necromantic Aura now, making it probably one of the most power items in the game!

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters
You know, I am finding that Draconian Necromancer works surprisingly well. Access to copious amounts of fire damage helps a lot in match ups where Necromancer is normally handicapped (other undead for example).

Thyrork
Apr 21, 2010

"COME PLAY MECHS M'LANCER."

Or at least use Retrograde Mini's to make cool mechs and fantasy stuff.

:awesomelon:
Slippery Tilde

Carnalfex posted:

Necro woes.

Gerblyn posted:

Necro solutions!

This is good advice, and I'd love for more people to post their own.

Personally? Cadavers are my scout of choice. Lost souls get summoned and added to my roaming starting army on the sides and i try to get them medals. They are so good with some medals. I carried a pair of them alongside a pair of reanimators right into the end game with whatever undead units jumped in and out of their stack.

Seriously, you'll giggle the first time you see a exploited dispare attack come from such a weak unit and obliterate targets, but want a way to make it even funnier? Get a theocrat hero.

What do theocrats bring you? Some late game power that far eclipses the early game boon of a necromancer hero. Convert, Control Undead, Heal (for your flesh and blood + pre-lichdom heroes.) and Mighty Meek.

You see, Might Meekin' a lost soul and having it swing at something thats depressed and happens to be t3? Now THAT hurts.

As madmac said, you will spend a huge amount of time agonizing over using souls to explore or to fight. I err on fight and let cadavers and lesser units unfit for war scout for me.

E: Gerbyln, I have no idea how your item gen code works in regards to the map generator, but would changing the lightning stick to a different rarity fix it turning up in place of something more useful? Or remove it from the random map gen loot table and replace it with "Newer! Better! Lightning Rod!"

Thyrork fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Apr 16, 2015

Carnalfex
Jul 18, 2007

Gerblyn posted:

1) Lost souls, you want to get one of these in your clearing army asap. It can run interference, and basically kill itself once in every fight to take the heat off your other units. If all else fails and you somehow manage to get it permanently killed, you can just summon another within a turn
It is pretty easy to lose them or at least have them be fairly unhelpful for their army slot/upkeep when they are starting every fight at critical damage, though. They also aren't cheap in cost or upkeep. If there is a significant amount of difiicult terrain or water around you are also forced to use some as scouts as well. They are solid units but I get the feeling everyone looks at their stats on paper and assumes they get a fresh start for each fight.

Gerblyn posted:

2) You can summon a free cadaver in every single fight, which you can once again use to distract the AI to keep your ghouls alive, or as a scout
This is good fun, and very useful. I've learned to try to keep them in their own stack nearby and just let them die so they don't suck up precious rare healing, otherwise you end up with the whole stack at death's door very quickly.

Gerblyn posted:

3) At level 3 your leader gets Control Undead, which lets you mind control a big variety of powerful units which are scattered around as independent guards. You can get free Wights, Death Bringers, Reanimators and Carrion birds from common sites that are everywhere.
The necro and armies are pretty crap at fighting undead other than this, though, so those fights aren't too easy. Lots of blight and physical damage against the same resists. Libraries aren't super rare but they aren't so common that you are sure to find one at your front door and the ability to steal that one reanimator comes down to a dice roll both for the charm and for the chance to even fight it. It also means you aren't getting other skills, but alright.

Gerblyn posted:

4) At level 5 your leader gets Lesser Reanimate Undead which lets him flat out bring back a unit from the dead every fight
This is pretty handy, most especially for bringing back your reanimators themselves since they are so crucial. However....by the time you hit 5 you probably do already have reanimators, and are leaving the early game. So while an awesome skill it isn't helpful early.

Gerblyn posted:

5) Dead cities can hurry production without a happiness penalty, meaning you can happily hurry everything you can get gold for without crippling your economy like every other class would if they tried that.
I am like 99% sure that undead cities cost population to rush production, which is actually pretty painful in terms of crippling your production. This actually hurts more than happiness loss early since the amount of pop loss is not small and on a class that already has pop problems. If you started with a giant city and/or no resources around you that you need influence to keep a hold on you might be able to get some use out of it though.

Gerblyn posted:

Finally, as a Necromancer your starting army is 30% more valuable than those of the other classes; you have a much higher chance of starting with a tier 3 unit, and if you don't you're going to have a lot more support, archers or cavalry, and a lot fewer cheap infantry and irregulars. This isn't explained anywhere, since it was added quite late to make the Necros slow start easier for new players, so you probably didn't notice that.
This is really interesting. The starting armies seem so luck based that I never considered this was a thing. Stacking the dice to get a free firstborn or shock trooper and slapping on the passive lifesteal might have a lot of potential. Is this something that only affects single player with low difficulty AI like some of the other newbie aids? Do other factors affect this? I always just assumed whatever difference people got in starting armies was 100% luck.

Gerblyn posted:

Now having a second necromancer does help immensely, but I think saying "you are doomed to lose if you don't have one" is pure hyperbole. You just need to make use of the many strengths the Necro has to help counteract his main weakness.
Sure, you can win. You just have a hefty drawback. To make up for it your opponents have to make mistakes, or ignore you while they squabble, or luck has to go your way.On the whole I'm sure I have a lot to learn and can do better with the tools available. Thank you for the tips! My point was simply that getting (or not) that second necro hero is a big swing in early sustainability for our decomposing friends.

edit: The tip of just using cadavers as disposable scouts is really really useful. Thank you! They have a range limit and have issues with rough terrain but it frees another soul or two to fight and gain levels, which can really help.

Carnalfex fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Apr 16, 2015

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled
Necro is so ridiculously snowbally that it feels like if they didn't have a rough early start they'd be stupidly overpowered.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters
Snowball hard or die tryin' :whatup:

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

Carnalfex posted:

I am like 99% sure that undead cities cost population to rush production, which is actually pretty painful in terms of crippling your production. This actually hurts more than happiness loss early since the amount of pop loss is not small and on a class that already has pop problems. If you started with a giant city and/or no resources around you that you need influence to keep a hold on you might be able to get some use out of it though.

It's 50 population per turn you skip, so if you decide to build a 5 turn structure in one turn, you lose 200, which is one turn growth from a city with a harvester's guild, or the same amount of population you get from killing 8 tiers of units (i.e. 2 fights to clear gold mines). If you look at the math, you can pretty much ignore the population cost entirely. It was only left in so that hurry production wouldn't seem OP, its impact is more psychological than economic.

Carnalfex posted:

This is really interesting. The starting armies seem so luck based that I never considered this was a thing. Stacking the dice to get a free firstborn or shock trooper and slapping on the passive lifesteal might have a lot of potential. Is this something that only affects single player with low difficulty AI like some of the other newbie aids? Do other factors affect this? I always just assumed whatever difference people got in starting armies was 100% luck.

The thing which picks what units you get is so arcane in its function, I barely understand how it works. At the end of the day though, it takes a value (350 gold, I believe in standard), and uses it to buy units. It often spends more than that, but 350 gold is its target value. Necromancer is the only class that gets an advantage, with something like 450 gold, to make up for the fact that unembalmed ghouls are worse units, and a lack of healing can make the first few fights painful.

If you start a game in classic turns, with you controlling a Necro goblin versus a non-necro goblin, you can compare the start armies you get. The necro's one will be much better, if you add up the values of the units that it gives you.

Anyways, I've been in charge of balance testing the class for 2-3 months, and the general consensus is that the Necromancer starts off weak, then turns into a terrifying doom train in the later game once Death Bringers start ghouling everything left, right and center. The beta testers thought that the class was mid-tier to upper mid-tier in terms of MP competitiveness, and that was before we boosted the size of the starting armies, slashed the cost of the Embalmer's Guild by a third, doubled the strength of Undead Plague and halved the population cost of rushing production. Only time will tell if the drawbacks you describe need to be dealt with, but at the moment I'm pretty happy with the balance of the class.

Thyrork posted:

This is good advice, and I'd love for more people to post their own.

One more important thing, trying to play a good Necro is possible, but really you're only making things harder for yourself. You want to declare war on every indy city you meet, and either invade it or cast Undead Plague on it. Each instance of UP you have running boosts one of your cities' growth by 400 a turn, I've seen cities grow 2000 population a turn because of that spell, it's hilarious. The only downside is the mana cost, and the fact that by the time you invade the plagued cities, they tend to be tiny outposts with a few straggling survivors crawling in the dirt of their broken civilization. I like to imagine they're happy I've arrived to save them from their misery :)

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

Carnalfex posted:

The necro and armies are pretty crap at fighting undead other than this, though, so those fights aren't too easy. Lots of blight and physical damage against the same resists. Libraries aren't super rare but they aren't so common that you are sure to find one at your front door and the ability to steal that one reanimator comes down to a dice roll both for the charm and for the chance to even fight it. It also means you aren't getting other skills, but alright.

Agreed, it's a pain in the rear end fighting undead as Necro. I usually push to Banshees as fast as I can since they're decent at it, but it can be very painful. If we're talking about favorite heroes, my favorite hero type to get when I play a necro is actually a Theocrat. Turn Undead and Spirit Ray help immensely.

Goatse James Bond
Mar 28, 2010

If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead
Yeah, the third level of the campaign really teaches you the joy of Ghoul Katamari.

Ham Binger doomed the world by sending three separate, basically-solo gold-medal manticore riders to raid me. :getin:

(Also he generously donated me Zombie Camille.)

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Captain Oblivious posted:

Snowball hard or die tryin' :whatup:

Die first, then snowball. :whatup:

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Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

GreyjoyBastard posted:

Ham Binger doomed the world by sending three separate, basically-solo gold-medal manticore riders to raid me. :getin:

If you pay attention in the Golden Realms campaign, you'll realise that Ham is basically a complete moron whose hypocrisy and incompetence is responsible for unleashing the Necromancers AND unlocking the seals which could doom the world as well. Almost everything that's goes wrong through all 4 campaigns can be traced back to Ham being a gently caress up!

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