Career Path Thread: Money is happiness

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Career Path Thread: Money is happiness

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Didn't see anything here for general career path advice. We're full of goons seeking entry-level and early-career tips, but as a lot of us are reaching our late 20s-30s it's time for some discussion on how to progress in your career and get ahead in the world.

I consider this to be the "OK, now what?" phase of our careers. It's when you've settled into a decent/good position and are wondering what's next. Some of us want to go full-steam and become a CEO, while others want to progress to a cushy senior-level position doing similar work to what they're doing now. It's all great - this is discussion about your personal goals and how to accomplish them.

Input from professionals is huge here - what have you done and how have you done it? What do you want to do in the future? What are some critical tips on how to get it done? From a personal perspective, I can share my experience in the IT sales industry if anyone's interested. What's your position and how'd you get there? What do you want to do, and how did others who have your desired position get it?

# ¿ Feb 11, 2013 01:02

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 06:03

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Eating the Pudding posted:

I'm not a big baller, but I think I've done pretty well for my age. Here are my tips:

1. Your job is to make your boss's job easier. Don't make them hound you for little things. Take care of your boss and they will take care of you. Loyalty is important!

2. People are social creatures. Your brilliance rarely means anything if you can't work with others. Hate social politics? Climbing the ladder isn't for you.

3. No one owes you anything. Life isn't fair. No one likes a whiner.

4. Show enthusiasm and passion when you speak! Walk with purpose.

5. See the bigger picture. Look at issues and understand what is really important. Eliminate the clutter.

Agreed on all counts. When I was a sales engineer it took me a year to figure out that my technology improved X, Y, and Z numbers and why wouldn't the customer buy? Once I learned how to translate those figures into actual, business value everything fell into place.

Social politics are huge. Be a likeable person and you'll thrive. Once you do that and figure out what actually matters? It's a new world, both internally and externally.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2013 02:25

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

zmcnulty posted:

Interesting idea for a thread, pretty well-timed for me as well.

My current career path will probably be ending in 18-24 months. Basically due to the combination of my location (Tokyo), industry (finance), role (derivatives operations), and company (the one exiting the derivatives business), I expect to either be forced to relocate to Singapore/Shanghai or be in the street within 18-24 months. So I'm evaluating my options.

I knew this path would be relatively short before I signed up, so it's not like I'm being caught off-guard. But for the past 6 years I've been lazy; I haven't given enough thought to taking the next step. Investment banking operations doesn't really prepare you with a skill set applicable in lots of other industries, since we're not qualified (i.e. we're not accountants/CPAs/laywers/anything), nor are we analytic (we aren't traders or investment bankers) nor good salespeople (we're not sales/marketing).

Seems like every one of my options has some pitfall:
1. Roll with the punches, stay in my department/company, get promoted, move to a new city blah blah. It may be a nice change of pace and definitely wouldn't be a BAD lifestyle. But it would be increasingly competitive... as an industry we're just getting more and more desperate by the day. Also I can't stand the thought of being 50 years old, looking back on my career, and seeing that I've spent decades of my life doing this.
2. Switch companies to stay in Tokyo. Easy enough, people do it all the time, but I have a feeling I'll be in the same boat in 2-3 years time.
3. Switch roles. Once in a blue moon an opportunity arises for an operations person to take a role in front office (typically sales/trading). Maybe the work would be slightly more engaging. But not enough?
4. MBA is sort of the textbook post-banking career path. I have enough savings that I could go, debt-free, but that doesn't instantly make it worthwhile. Why do I need an MBA, or the network that comes with it? Until I can answer that question, I have no reason to go.
5. Try and swing into a different career. I interview well and my resume looks nice on paper, but realistically speaking it's going to be very difficult to apply my experience. I'd be heavily reliant on soft skills. Plus there's the pesky salary issue... nobody wants a pay cut, which I'm virtually guaranteed by switching away from finance.
6. Turn my back on all of that and do something completely unrelated. Some of these options are more realistic than others: starting a pineapple farm, bartending, teaching English, starting a business, taking a white-privilege gap year to travel, volunteering

Combination of #4 and #5 seems like the best. I need to dust off that GMAT textbook.

MBA-By-Default is kind of where I'm at right now, also. It's probably why all their essay questions are "What, specifically, do you want to do with this?" It's a hard question. What's an entry-level MBA job that you couldn't get with your current credentials?

You're in a good spot, being in the financial industry, since banking/finance has broad applicability to every industry. Not sure what IB operations entails, but you've probably picked up some skills at least evaluating the general business environment.

Shadowhand00 posted:

One of the VPs in my company sat down with me for a skip-level meeting. He told me he looks for 3 things when he promotes someone:

1. The smarts to deal with the new position as well as deal with unexpected situations
2. The humility to learn to deal with the new position, as well as the ability to learn.
3. The hunger and desire to work for the new position, as well as the passion to excel at the position.

He told me he really sees me as strong in #1 and #2, but he definitely wants to see me get better at #3 before he would consider promoting me. It wasn't disheartening to hear as much as inspirational in this case.

Just an opinion, but unless you *really* love your company, I'm not a big fan of waiting around to be promoted internally (Edit: Unless your company is growing really fast and you're in at the ground level). It's a good way to wind up in middle management, but does anyone really have a burning desire for a middle management career?

Especially when you're younger, it's hard to shake the image of your previous positions when you move up internally. When you go to a new company, it's more of a clean slate and people see you as what you are, not what you used to be. A new company is also not going to lowball you on salary when moving up to a new position, while an internal promotion may be seen as a "gift" to you.

ProFootballGuy fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Feb 13, 2013

# ¿ Feb 13, 2013 01:55

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

TouchyMcFeely posted:

Quoting this because it can absolutely be true. Incoming anecdote! When I finished my master's degree 3 years ago I had a serious sit down with my group leader about my future in the company. His boss, the Regional Manager, was close to retirement and as things stood at that time, when he retired one of the two Group Leaders would be promoted opening up a position I would have a good shot at. What ended up happening was the Regional Manager was forced into retirement early and our region was merged with another. There has since been 2 more reorganizations that have resulted in additional merging and the number of Group Leader positions has gotten smaller.

As much as I enjoy what I do, the people I work with and the freedom this job has granted me it's become clear that if I want to move up I have to move out. Because I waited, I've lost 3 years that I should have spent looking, polishing my resume, networking, etc.

In other words, if you're looking for a promotion start looking outside your organization while you're waiting for something to open up in yours. There's a good chance you'll find something externally before something opens up internally.

Agreed. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it can sometimes be easier to get a bigger/better position at a smaller company, which you can then parlay into bigger/better positions elsewhere. It can seem a bit mercenary and job-hopperish, but if you're competent, network well, and never burn bridges you won't piss anyone off. I'm big on the "progression" in my resume; I always want to look upwardly-mobile and dynamic.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2013 02:59

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

econdroidbot posted:

I appreciate your opinion, but I'd like to play devil's advocate. Isn't it naive to think that individual contributors will have some sort of overwhelming intrinsic motivation beyond compensation? Rynes et al reported that candidates regularly under-report the importance of salary when queried, but monetary incentives produce the largest and most reliable increases in job performance. Put another way, the desire for more money (at the manager level) is going to produce the highest performing management candidates (on average).

Certainly it is a wonderful thing to want to move into management for the "right" reason such as personal growth or following a calling, but dismissing someone because they want more money strikes me as being insincere.

Money, power, and status. Most if not all the other reasons are bullshit designed to tactfully acquire those things. But, bullshit is a *huge* part of organizational politics.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2013 20:41

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

econdroidbot posted:

I hear what you're saying and agree, but only to an extent. The ability to get along is integral to long term career success. Still, it seems sanctimonious for someone already at the management level to require some sort of drive for non-monetary self-actualization to be considered for a management position.

"Well when I made the jump to management I did it for the RIGHT reasons, like LOYALTY and DRIVING SHAREHOLDER VALUE and LEADERSHIP and PROBLEM SOLVING and THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX and SHIFTING THE PARADIGM. It just so happens that it came with additional money. In other news, got mine."

But I think you're absolutely right about being able to put things tactfully, whether going for a raise, or turning down work, or any of the other thousands of things that come up in business and need a delicate touch.

It's just one of those game-playing hoops, sanctimonious or not. When you're pitching to a client, you don't tell them you want their business because of the big fat commission check that'll send you on a vacation to Hawaii. Even though that's the real reason.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2013 22:50

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Initio posted:

It doesn't even need to be bullshit. Ofcourse everyone wants money as a part of the promotion. The question someone should be trying to answer is why they want a particular position within the organization rather than some other one which may offer identical monetary benefits.

It will be bullshit to some degree. "I've got a burning passion for endless middle management paperwork and status update meetings!"

Everyone understands it's about self-advancement, it's just that you have to sell yourself and bring some value to the table as to why you're the biggest and most badass person for the job.

Paradoxically, that usually does not mean being the hardest working, most dependable guy at your job. You don't want to be irreplacable as a worker bee or fit *too* comfortably in your niche. Soft skills and a dynamic personality come into play majorly here.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2013 23:03

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Cicero posted:

Read this article about salary negotiation for engineers. It's aimed at negotiating salaries for when you're taking a new job, but I think it can help with mindset.

Also while the mid-west is obviously a lot cheaper than the coasts, that's still absurdly low for an experienced developer. How many years of experience do you have? If you have at least a couple, I'd say like 45k minimum would be a fair starting point. Definitely look around at glassdoor, and if they don't offer you enough, go somewhere else.

And you're right, being a girl probably means that you'll get offered less, because they know/think they can get away with it (because girls don't demand as much money).

It sounds like you're in a pretty good position to negotiate, though. But don't just say, "gimme more money or I'm out and you're screwed" (even though that's kind of the subtext), talk about the value you bring to the company: "I worked on X, X brought in Y additional dollars, so giving me a raise of Y/10 is practically a pittance (ok maybe don't use that exact word)."

edit: Are you friends with the senior developer at all? More friends with him than he is with management? If so, while outright asking for his currently salary would be too direct, you could try asking him what kind of salary he thinks you ought to have since you'll be taking over his responsibilities. That might give you some insight.

Fantastic article on salary negotiations, especially if you're grossly underpaid already. Internal salary negotiations can limit you, so I'd highly recommend taking the promotion at whatever salary you can get, then leave the company. At your level, talking about projects you worked on and the value you brought internally is not a worthwhile exercise. Save that info for your interview with the new company, and you'll be able to double your salary.

You're not going to get anywhere by salary-negotiating internally early in your career, because they see you as a kid. Grab whatever title you can get and leverage it to get a new job, where you'll be compensated fairly. Repeat this process until you've reached as high as you can go in your area. Save loving around with internal politics until you're established and have leverage to be bold with your demands, as you progress into the management/director/VP level.

ProFootballGuy fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Mar 19, 2013

# ¿ Mar 19, 2013 01:03

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Ultimate Mango posted:

That was an incredible article, but my personal experience with internal salary negotiations early in my career was very different. I was able to double my salary twice in a couple of years by going in exactly with the value of the projects on worked and knowing my actual value in the market without having to leave.

I suppose industry, location, and employer will make a huge difference in the outcome of these discussions.

You should certainly attempt to do it internally, and sometimes you'll be able to pull it off, like you did. But for the majority of cases it's going to be *much* harder to accomplish internally than it will be externally.

Internally, if you negotiate you're rocking the boat/budget, and there's almost zero chance you'll leave if you don't get everything you asked for.

Externally, if you've reached the point of negotiations they want you, and there's a fair bit of heartache on the hiring manager's part if they nickel and dime and lose you over $X in salary.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2013 01:28

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Harry posted:

I mean, what was your starting salary? For a lot of professions that'd be you making six figures with 3-4 years of experience which sounds pretty high for most fields. I'm talking about normal places as well, not mega high cost of living cities where making 70k is getting by.

In tech or engineering, if you're not making six figures you're doing something horribly wrong.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2013 01:35

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Harry posted:

Cool, that's two whole professions and their starting salaries are high enough that you aren't going to have it double twice in a 5 years except in extreme fringe cases.

The same thing applies in any profession, just do some research on average salaries in your field/area and aim 20% higher. Follow the strategy to get there.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2013 02:35

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Don't get a second bachelor's. You can definitely learn enough on your own and through working low-end tech jobs, to get a baseline level of knowledge if you want to go on to get a graduate degree.

If you have no degree at all I do recommend at least getting a bachelor's (in anything) if you intend to move up and not focus strictly on the tech side for your entire career. There a lot of rock-star nerds out there without degrees, but it takes more effort to get to that point than it would to just get the degree (IMO). It'll at least keep your options open and won't immediately disqualify you from degree-requiring positions. But I see no benefit to getting a second bachelor's.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2013 14:09

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Fisticuffs posted:

I hadn't thought much about this but I'm going to look into it. I have tomorrow off, hopefully I can go bug a counselor at a nearby school. Thank you.

The counterpoint to "wasting" a couple hundred bucks applying to grad programs is to spend tens of thousands and a year+ going back for formal classes at the undergrad level? Sheeeit. Do what you want but it's a loving stupid idea.

It's not like you're getting into MIT either way, why not spend a couple months studying the *insane* amount of free knowledge you can get online about programming/CS/tech subjects? Why not work in the field first to see if it's something you can even tolerate?

And you're not going to make big $ at a "9-5" programming job. You might make big $ in a "7 AM-10 PM" programming job.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2013 14:25

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Ultimate Mango posted:

This can be somewhat of a tricky question and can be very dependent on your industry and job. The easiest situation like this I experienced was when I did consulting work for which the customer paid. I was able to show exactly how much billings I brought in, and that I took home far too little a portion of that money (I think I billed over $400k and earned under a hundred fully loaded).

Your doing work as a part of the job that meant that the company didn't have to bring in external consultants could easily be viewed as just being part of your job. If you implemented a product, did your company save money as a result of using the product? Is the product something your company can sell or otherwise use to generate revenue?

Think about the full benefit you bring your employer, and how that compares to your full package of salary and benefits and taxes. If you don't contribute to revenue generation then you are expense and need to work really hard to justify your job, let alone a $20k raise. It can be done just recognize the challenge and step up to it.

Adding on to this, from your company's perspective it's not just "you" who did the job. They had to find the client, build the relationship with the client, and sell the client on the services. You might have done the actual work, but from the company's perspective you're one of dozens of engineers who "could" have done the work they positioned and sold. Unless you're truly amazing, your "talents" are somewhat fungible.

If you implemented something yourself which the vendor said would take $xx,000 for their services team to implement, then consider getting a job with that vendor, because your company will just say that you configured a product they bought and paid for, which is part of your job.

Which leaves you with a few options, number one of which is demanding the wages of "professional services" types in your field. There's no shame in this and good services types get paid a great salary at all vendors.

The second is to get into sales itself, where you essentially translate into English what the services guys will be doing for clients, and thinking more strategically. Career path-wise, implementations themselves are operational and tactical at best.

Understanding the reasoning behind an implementation, the strategy behind it, and its competitive advantage is what will get you positions and money beyond "senior implementation guy".

# ¿ May 27, 2013 21:47

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Dik Hz posted:

Adding to this, they also trained the employee in question, provided support staff, and overhead.

Going to the boss and saying "I did it all and I deserve to be paid more" is more than likely not going to have a whole lot of traction.

Yup. In my opinion, angling for raises and promotions internally is a losing game anyway. It'll get you a marginal raise at best, since management/operations is most concerned with running a streamlined, cost-effective organization. They're looking for excuses as to why they shouldn't give you a raise, and they'll find all of them, tarnishing your image.

Write down your accomplishments, put them into your resume, and find a position externally if you're looking to move up. It'll save you a lot of grief.

# ¿ May 27, 2013 22:20

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

marsisol posted:

So I think this is the appropriate thread for this. I need some advice on how to negotiate a raise.

I work for a very small (<10) environmental consulting firm. There are only two of us in this office (my boss and I). I started three months ago making 40k/year and I'm up for a three month review. Things have been going well and my boss is constantly saying how screwed he would be if I left, how he's grooming me for a very high position, etc.

I will also be moving soon to a very, very expensive part of NJ and I definitely need a raise to stay comfortable. How should I go about asking for more money? How much could I get away with? I was thinking about a bump to 45k would be reasonable.

Don't use your move to justify your raise. Research the real-world salaries people in your area/field are demanding and ask for that. If environmental consultants in NJ average $70k a year, ask for that. If your boss doesn't give it to you, negotiate to the maximum he'll pay and look for employment elsewhere in the meantime.

Early-career professionals seem to get caught in this low-wage trap, but they should job hop until they get above-market wages. It's easy to find replacement-level employees, but at the professional level it's *very hard* to find good ones, so you have to demand what you're worth.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2013 00:07

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

NicelyNice posted:

Ultimately, I'd like a job that merges my project management and communications skills with technical skills, but I don't mind putting in the time getting up to speed in the industry.

Thanks so much for any advice!

Sales engineer. Good money, and it's difficult to find people who combine tech skills with people/communication skills. Project management is also good for performing demos and making sure customers don't spend 6 months "trying out" the product.

Since you're starting out, look for positions at value-added resellers, then move into the vendor space.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2013 22:36

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Shadowhand00 posted:

Yay just got word that I got a 11% raise.

The biggest thing coming out of the meeting is that I need to start learning how to be a much more strategic thinker. Does that basically mean I need to be able to anticipate what executives want to hear and be able to communicate to them in a way that makes sense to them?

It means how your role aligns with the *business* objectives. Less "I was efficient and did my job well" and more "I can grow the business/save x%/out-compete our rivals by doing _________"

# ¿ Jul 10, 2013 02:39

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Ultimate Mango posted:

There seem to be multiple issues in your post. First is that you are 'covering' extra work and that may have become full time in addition to your other job (you don't state your other job really, though it probably has to do with coding or web design?).

Have you had the discussion with your boss about those extra duties and when you will either be compensated for them or when they will end?

As for your raise, how long has the carrot been dangled? An employer waiting to give a raise to someone until they have been there a year is pretty standard. Did they promise you something different in the past?

As for jumping ship, your summary of background and job changes would already be a red flag to me if I were interviewing you, moreso if you changed again. If you are in a BAD work environment get out of there but if you can tough it out your future employers will likely take you more seriously.

Moving out of state is yet another entirely different topic. Start looking NOW for where you want to move and what job opportunities are there. Maybe by the time you have been at your current job for a year you will know where you want to live and have made progress with potential employers in that location!

Agreed completely. Your job hopping background may raise questions, but if you show that it's for career growth that can be overcome.

I would recommend staying until your 1-year review and see what they offer. If it's a lovely raise, then you can start seriously exploring other options while still employed. And you'll have the luxury of being able to pick the best offer without *needing* the work. Also if you're engaged with recruiters for bigger companies, they'll often have positions in other states which you can ask about.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2013 03:03

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Mary loving Poppins posted:

I'm a little confused about how pay works when compared to an independent contractor. I'm considering a job with a consulting company who would offer the position as an independent contractor or an employee of the consulting company itself. If they say that the job is $X per her and to increase that if pursuing as an independent contractor or decrease that if pursing as a full-time employee, how much does that generally slide in each direction? I'd more than likely pursue as a full-time employee, but I don't really have an idea of how much the annual salary would actually be. I'm intending on asking more about that with the recruiter, but the more information I have ahead of time the more comfortable I'd be.

If you're going through an outside recruiter, beware. In a lot of "contractor" cases you'll actually be paid by the recruiting agency rather than the company you're working for. And the company will be paying your recruiting agency something like $75/hour for you when you only see $50/hour.

Go salaried/FT employee of your company if at all possible, and negotiate the hell out of it.

Edit: Also yes, if you're not asking/negotiating about salary/compensation you're a chump. Professionals want to be compensated well for what they do and for most people it's the #1 concern, so don't be shy about it.

ProFootballGuy fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jul 21, 2013

# ¿ Jul 21, 2013 00:51

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

To follow up to my post above, I want to make it absolutely clear to everyone:

COMPENSATION IS ALWAYS NEGOTIABLE.

Sports and entertainment agents work to get the maximum price for their clients' services. You're your own agent. And you have to be willing to get the maximum price or the best fit for your own services.

The best part is that you're always a free agent, so always keep your eye out for a bigger and better deal. If you have anything of value to offer, you can command market price or above -- any and all the time.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2013 01:17

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

100 HOGS AGREE posted:

I just had a good talk with my boss about potential avenues of advancement at the company I work at he gave me a bunch of stuff to think about while I've got all this downtime at work lately.

He mentioned a couple things, like getting into knowledge management, project management, training, leadership, stuff I could probably transition into fairly easily given my skillset, but then he also mentioned he has a couple contacts in corporate sales and that might be an option as well.

Most of my life I've dismissed sales jobs because I always imagined like, cold-calling jobs and lovely jobs where you sell retail goods or insurance. But I honestly don't have any experience with that kind of job and I feel like I am personable and motivated enough to do well at it maybe?

Made me think that getting a MBA in the future might not be a bad idea either...

I gotta think about this poo poo, this is all new to me.

Sales is where the money is, without a doubt. 5 years ago I was busting my balls doing professional services, hating life, when my boss told me that I was still way down the totem pole and needed to be pre-sales to get the money.

And it makes sense -- companies wouldn't be in business if they didn't get sales. So I made it my mission to go into sales, and I did, and I love it. It does take an outgoing personality type, but you don't need to be a bullshitter/schmoozer to do it. As long as you're genuinely likeable, can succinctly state your value prop, and *help clients with their needs* you can do it.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2013 23:22

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

I was at a smaller company (technical VAR) at the time, so I asked if I could sit in on sales meetings and do more pre-sales SE type work. Once I got familiar with the process I started taking more meetings solo, getting POs faxed from customers attn: me, and doing a bit of prospecting myself.

I did have to change companies to get into a dedicated sales role - dedicated sales engineer, then sales rep. You'll find that companies will pigeonhole you, but that doesn't mean you can't find opportunities to "stretch" your role a bit. No one's gonna be pissed if you help bring in more business.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2013 15:49

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

I agree with what you said. Myself, I didn't enjoy the in-the-weeds technical part of engineering, and I was never going to be a superstar guru who had his own blog and spent all day testing out scenarios in his home lab. Some SEs are more suited to parachute in to do design/config-work with the customer's engineers, but I excelled on the soft skills/sales/presenting/meeting side.

Depending on the company it isn't uncommon for SEs to move over into sales. Some companies like their SEs super-nerdy and some like them to be more salesy. I was in the latter category. I moved into an overlay sales position, specializing on a single product set and covering multiple "core" reps. That seemed to be typical for SEs transitioning.

Yes, there is a lot of bullshit involved (the company is constantly tracking all forecasts and asking you about where deals sit). And in many cases the answer is "It's in some loving labyrinth of red tape waiting to get signed in blood by a witch." There are headaches in all jobs, though, and I prefer the sales headache to the engineering headache of banging my head against the wall trying to work around an unsolvable code issue (and poring through hundreds of pages of docs trying to figure it out) or getting a call at 3 AM that something's broken.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2013 19:20

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Some typical sales headaches:

-If you work with a sales channel, expect lots of drama. There will always be someone butthurt at you for some reason. Whether it's going in with another partner, giving better pricing via deal registration, working without the partner (some like to keep total account control and want to be involved in EVERYTHING you do), etc etc etc. Probably my #1 headache.
-Customers haggling about pricing. This happens every time, and their "budget" always just happens to be in the range where you'd need to ask for non-standard pricing approvals from management.
-Customers hiding the real decision-maker. You think you have a deal done, then there's a last-minute cockblock from a Wizard of Oz who has the real power. I fell into this problem a lot early on, now I do more digging to see what the real buying process is.
-End of quarters. Like right now. Is that PO going to actually get here or is it going to be stuck in limbo hell? Stressful.
-Some customers will only buy from their golfing/boating/etc buddies, and won't ever talk to you. The answer to this, of course, is to make golfing buddies.
-Sometimes your product doesn't do what the customer needs, and even your best leaps of logic won't save it.
-Generating pipeline is a constant process, and things drop out at a truly alarming rate. You need to have like 3-5x your number in pipeline, and it's hard.
-Customers will call and ask for a quote for something they need ASAP! Yeah! Alright! They wind up buying half of what you quoted, two years later.

Among many other things.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2013 19:42

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Xguard86 posted:

Interesting stuff. Obviously I'd rather not take a probable pay/lifestyle cut to start at the bottom of a sales position so parlaying sounds like the way to go. I'm just trying to figure out a way to take my kind of technical base to move into a more communication soft skill oriented field. To be honest, those problems yall name sound like something I can handle more easily than: "we have 27 unique fields for 12,000 entries and need to gather and sort all of them here is your excel sheet and headphones".

It certainly does sound intimidating though trying to keep a constant sales pipeline running.

I've floated this question previously and heard Product Owner/Product Manager would be a good fit but after looking for those positions, they seem to require a good deal more experience than I have, or a right time/place situation. I guess its normal to be frustrated in your twenties.

I'm not nor have never been a Product Manager, but from everything I've seen it is a very technical and challenging job. Very much bridging the engineeringly-feasible with the field feedback and forward-looking research.

The running joke in technical-to-sales transitions is that we get the "lobotomy" to go into sales. Not exactly true. You might not have to learn the millions of CLI commands and arcane tech jargon, but I have a business degree and you definitely apply more business knowledge in sales than you ever will in engineering. I prefer it...

# ¿ Sep 20, 2013 22:20

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 06:03

ProFootballGuy: Nov 6, 2012; by angerbot

Ultimate Mango posted:

Either share here or send me a PM with some information about the industry and solutions you work in and around. I went from system analyst to consultant to architect to presales to leadership. The specific company I work for really isn't set up for presales engineers to become sales people, but many others (see ProFootballGuy) may make it easy to make that move.

There are probably ways to parlay from where you are now to where you want to go without starting over. We in this thread just can't give you advice without knowing if you are in like large medical technology hardware or big data search optimization or help desk or what.

As for pipeline, sales people live and die by pipeline. It is also why many people who move from presales into sales do great for two or four quarters and then have the bottom fall out (they inherit a territory with pipeline and opportunity and never figure out that building more pipe is the key to long term success; they close all the deals there are to close when they walk in the door then they starve). I know that I am not the kind of person who can build pipeline every day, but I sure as heck figured out to help make that kind of person outrageously successful.

Yeah, the transition definitely depends on your industry and company.

However I do have to disagree with you on one front: if the sales position has pipeline and easily-closeable deals the previous guy wouldn't have left (barring promotion/death). Mine and other recently-filled sales positions have had the previous guy close all the big deals then left once he sucked all the money out of the territory. Or he was so bad he got fired for having horrible sales and pipeline.

# ¿ Sep 21, 2013 00:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Career Path Thread: Money is happiness