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Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

nice to see this thread. We're thinking of ruining our lives by buying a condo in Victoria in a year or so. Were planning on doing it sooner but it seems the best thing to do is just wait for prices to get even lower.

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Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Did you have to move unexpectedly or just trying to get out with as much value left in your condo as possible?

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

There's no jobs but all your friends are rich and employed???
Or like no jobs for regular folk?

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Man if a household making 80k a year is underemployment I want to be that underemployed. Lucky if my household breaks 60k a year with both of us working full time. I guess we're insane to think of buying here?

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Our credit union told us we could go as high as 300k, on paper, but told us 200-250 is way more reasonable. Which isn't too bad because there's a lot of semi-decent condo's in that range. I work in architecture/construction related stuff and my wife does insurance, specially a lot of condo insurance, so we're both pretty aware of what to look for and avoid when buying. Plus we know a few great extremely critical inspectors. Not house inspectors, actual condo-specialized inspectors that know more about commercial level construction like concrete and parkade issues a basic house inspector might not specialize in.

It's still a VERY scary thing to even think about. And we know even in the worst crash we'll never be able to afford a house unless one of us wins the lottery or there's some capitalist-smashing revolution.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

I'm kinda shocked people are buying without a proper downpayment. With such a huge income why not wait a bit and avoid CMHC stuff?

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Average downpayment is 7%?! The 2 mortgage people I sat down and talked to at my credit union both told me they very very strongly recommend at LEAST a 20% down-payment and seemed to insinuate you're insane not to. Even the business starved realtors I've spoken with told me they'd try to talk anyone out of buying who didn't have a full downpayment. Said if you save up more than 20% don't buy a bigger home, just put in a bigger downpayment.

I'm really looking forward for my taxes to be covering idiot CMHC-insured bubble buyers.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 16, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Canada's visa system is famous for being one of the worst. It's a very very hard country to immigrate to. Married an australian? Get ready to wait a year or two before Canada lets them in, and expect tons of questions about your sex life and genital description pop-quizzes. It's a brutal kafka-esq nightmare even for commonwealth countries.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Did he mention housing bubbles at all??

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

The vancouver bubble was started because it's the best place on earth so naturally everyone wants to be here, hong kong found out and they bought EVERYTHING because it's the best place on earth. Everyone from the rest of canada also keeps buying it because it's the best place on earth. Because it's the best place on earth it's not actually a bubble but simply the price of living in such an amazing world-famous top tier city.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Vancouver: a place with not enough condo towers.




Oh well that's just the downtown peninsula, maybe they need to add some density in the burbs, maybe pack condo towers around every transit station!





Oh I guess they've got that covered too.

But there's still tons of room. There's whole streets of mostly HOUSES and 2-3 story apartments on the peninsula. Although that's part of the charm, specially of the middle/west end area. I'm sure they could go full on hong-kong but I'm not sure it would help the situation since the prices aren't so much supply/demand based but insane bubble based.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Does anyone have an article about how our banks got bailed out?

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Other than this thread everyone is telling me the price-dip is over (in Victoria) and NOW is the time to buy because the economy is heating up and everything is going to start going up soon. This is the low! Buy NOW!!

I tell them I want to wait at least a year, save up more, and hopefully get a lower price. They laugh at me and say things like "oh you must buy those doom and gloom cranks on the internet? They've been saying the bubble's going to burst for the last decade!" and tell me I'll be renting a tiny basement suite for the rest of my life if I'm waiting for a crash.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

What's people like that author's excuse? "It would have been different if the GOVERNMENT didn't ruin things!" "It would have been different if those poors didn't buy houses they couldn't afford because that's 100% what caused the crash, poors!" "Alien bigfoot did it!" ???

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Cultural Imperial posted:

I get this all the time in Vancouver. People here can't seem to fathom that cities like Vancouver and Victoria are economic backwaters that have no business hovering at the cost of living levels that they do.

Someone hasn't had "BEST PLACE ON EARTH" drilled into your head enough. Don't you remember the Olympics? We're on the world's stage now, we're on the map, we're an alpha city like London or Tokyo! In fact they're going to have to invent some new tier for Vancouver because it's just so loving off the charts amazing. You think this is a bubble? Look at those mountains and tell me it's a bubble. Look at these CHINESE INVESTORS and tell me it's a bubble. Yeah thought so.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

I'd kill for that deal. Over 2000 sqft for only 370k, that's amazing. Here that would be 600+

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Well clearly there's high demand and a short supply otherwise the price wouldn't be that high. Markets people, markets. Perhaps Nelson is the 2nd best place on earth?

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

I just wonder when it's coming. Other than this thread, every other source keeps talking about STRONG MARKETS and ITS DIFFERENT HERE. My wife desperately wants to move NOW and I keep saying "let's wait a year, keep saving and prices will go down" but she isn't a goon and is absolutely surrounded by the media, friends, everyone saying prices are in fact going to go up soon and now is the time to buy. It's getting harder to keep her convinced and I'm starting to feel like some lone conspiracy theorist.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

I'd love to rent but this isn't europe and renting is for lazy failed poors and students, who have to live in sub-standard old buildings with lovely shared-laundry and stinky elevators. I know buying is expensive but I don't look at it as an investment, it's a luxury, it's a thing to make one happy. I hate renting, I hate the uncertainty, the lack of any sense of ownership or control. You go into a condo building and no one vandalizes poo poo because it's their own building, people have a sense of ownership and it shows. Something breaks, you can fix it and fix it right. I looked at some not-shitbox apartments and town-houses for rent but the rents are insane, higher than mortage+strata+utilities. So it's either shared-laundry apartments where you have to do guard-duty or your clothes will all be stolen, or really high-end units marketed more towards rich professionals here for a season or two.

If I could find a 2 bedroom apartment with in-suite laundry, up to date fire safety equipment, decent sound-proofing, and a management company that doesn't take months to fix broken light switches and faucets (replacing them of course with the cheapest shittiest things they can) I'd probably jump on it. But there's like no middle-ground here. It's either 50 year old poo poo-boxes full of students and drug addicts, or super high-end luxury stuff.

That said, even adding the joy of owning your own home into the math, the prices for condos are still way too high. But people always post these purely beep-boop excel sheets that never factor quality of life into the mix. It's good to have perspective though, and you're an idiot if you think buying is a wise investment. But people shouldn't forget about the huge quality of life issues when weighing buying vs renting.

I'd be quite content to just hobbit-down and live in this very cheap basement suite for years more, savings up a massive 50% downpayment or something, it's the wife...

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Mar 18, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

It's something everyone I know (because I don't know rich people, so we all rent) just have to deal with, laundry is something you drop off and read a book in the laundry room because if you don't poo poo will happen to your stuff. Maybe not every time, but enough that you feel uncomfortable. Maybe they don't steal it, maybe they just dump it on the floor because they wanted the use the machine. Or maybe they'll just smash the expensive new machines the building finally got after years of complaints about the lovely old ones and the owner rightfully kinda "well gently caress you uncivilized animals I'm not getting any new stuff, have a lovely used laundry set from the 90 I found for $200". It often takes months to find out if a building is lovely, or sometimes a building can suddenly become lovely. So you get into this never-ending cycle of moving every few years. I hate moving, I want to find a place I can stay in for decades at least.

And rentals, even the nicer ones, are never truly nice. Nice is subjective, and rentals don't let you make the changes you'd need to make a place nice. I want to buy a cheap place with good bones with a lovely kitchen/bathroom and gut the place and build-up my dream home. New kitchen, new bathroom, maybe even move some doors or even walls around. Get something with a good balcony and enclose it super nice and turn it into an office. Make a place nice and add a bit of value to it.

And yeah, 1 br or bachelors in 40-50 year old buildings (that haven't had an update to their kitchens or bathrooms since) go for about 800 here. 2br with same quality go for 1000-1200. Anything that is remotely up to date is $1500+. My friend is all super excited because she found a small 900 sqft 2br place with laundry and fixtures and paint updated in the early 2000's for only $1600. With rents like that, gently caress it, I'd rather buy.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 18, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Yeah that's a big problem, all the rental subsidies vanished in like the 70's. So you've got pretty much the whole city's rental stock being these 4 story wood-frame poo poo-boxes built in the 60-70's. They were fine in their day but many are nearing replacement age (because in north america building for 50 years instead of 10 is considered long term).

Until recently with horrible rents, no new rentals were ever built. In my city the first purpose-built rentals only started going up a few years ago, but of course they are high end. There's a huge gap in the housing cycle basically. Housing cycle is really important, you need a slow steady stream of construction. Unless the government is heavily involved there's no such thing as building for affordability, new things will always be expensive. But as the building gets older, it can (but not always) become cheaper or adapt to changing conditions, which is why it's important to build things to last and be adaptable.

In the Victoria-Vancouver area there was like a 40 year gap in this housing cycle. That's why we're stuck with a choice between decaying poo poo-boxes or $2000 a month condo rentals. Where this cycle wasn't broken though is with condos, they kept being built more or less constantly over the decades. So there's much more choice for many more "classes" of people.

And no I wouldn't want to live in a gated community, think they should be more or less illegal. Many condos turn into vertical gated communities with crazy out of control HOA-like councils, this is something I want to avoid as well (and be active on my own building's council if possible). Just because I don't want to live in a building with active meth labs or 40 year old broken toilets doesn't make me three-olives. I'm actually a communist and would prefer to see the entire private-ownership paradigm smashed and cities adopt a Vienna-style model where most housing is owned by the city who then rents to citizens while giving them very high degrees of freedom rights over their unit, which are all well built and managed in a way that instills a sense of ownership and permanency.

But I don't live in Vienna, I live in Victoria, so my choices are over-priced poo poo box rental or horrifically over-priced condo that's slightly less lovely, and it makes me sad and bitter :(

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

I guess my problem is that I'm a poor and expect moderately quality housing. I've looked at a lot of pretty good units in the $250k range though and all our math seems to point to us being able to afford that. I'm also not in metro-vancouver.

So far the best candidates are all 80's or 90's leaky condo's that have been fixed up. I don't want to touch something older than that (unless it had really good bones). But I used to actually design condos and apartments so at least I sort of know what to look for and what to avoid, although I'd still get a super thorough inspection.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Although very similar, maybe Victoria and metro Vancouver vary a bit too. Here you can actually get a really nice nearly brand new 2br unit in the low 300's. And I'm not talking about in some far flung suburb, I mean walking distance or actually in the downtown core. I couldn't live in Vancouver, way too big and sprawling, I like to be able to walk to work or jump on a 10min bus trip. But I've actually gone and looked at quite a few pretty nice condos in the 250k range that meet our criteria. Probably our biggest (ok my biggest) tricky criteria is that I need a space to make a model train. So I'm looking for a place with a small 2nd bedroom I can claim as my hobby room, and an enclosed or enclosable balcony to turn into the wife's office/retreat. Or a place with a big enough master bedroom with the right layout that we could put a wall down the middle and she'd get her office and I'd get my hobby room. In fact I got all excited about having the door to my hobby room being the book case in her office, dreamed of a secret-passage since I was a kid.

It's so weird because people working the same job or similar jobs that we do that are a generation older all have nice little houses with basements they can convert into hobby space or a rec room or what ever, while my generation suddenly can barely afford a small condo. If we complain about this at all we're the "entitlement generation" and get stories about how they had to work hard and save for their house and had to pay a 10% mortgage.

My parents were always single income, my dad was just a city bus driver. Their neighbour's house, which is pretty much the same as theirs but a bit smaller and without a finished basement sold last year for 920k. Me and my wife make more than my dad ever did. How did housing prices get like this?? Like... this just isn't sustainable. And I shed no tears for the rich retired couple who paid 920k for a huge 5 bedroom house if that house is suddenly worth a reasonable 500k in a few years.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Mar 18, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Like.. the loving opening paragraph is just a list of every home-ownership falsehood out there. The entire tone of the article reads like a cheesy sales pitch. How is that an article and not one of those ads-that-looks-like-an-article things papers sometimes have? I guess since that distinction is long gone?

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

We've thought about moving to a cheaper city but the rest of Canada seems like a hole compared to Victoria, or filled with mean francophones. We like living a nearly car-free lifestyle and other than a few other big cities that's really hard to do. Toronto has ok transit but is loving huge, who knows where your job will be. I mean Vancouver seems way too big for me, the idea of spending an hour to visit a friend or go to work or an event or something is a deal-breaker, so something as huge as Toronto is out. I've heard good things about Montreal although once again it's probably too big and I'm absolutely useless with languages. Quebec city looks gorgeous and it's core is probably the closest to a proper city in Canada, but good luck not speaking french let alone not being from there. I've heard ok things about Halifax. Alberta is absolutely off the table, despise just about everything about the place, specially Calgary.

Moving anywhere, we'd have to get new jobs (huge stress), new friends, new climate, new everything. Those sorts of things are hard to put a price on, but I guess you can since I'd rather pay nearly double for housing to avoid those things. I hate how overly mobile society has become, no one puts down roots, they just zip from city based mostly on economics. It's not a freedom, it's just become a chore, an expected thing you to do for your career. You only go to Victoria once you're rich and retired or at the end of your career, gently caress you if you're born there. I'd love to move to Prague or Berlin but: language (also the EU wouldn't want an uneducated poor like me). Property in Berlin is so drat cheap, Prague even more so. Yet the quality of life, infrastructure, everything makes Victoria or Vancouver look like a calgary suburb. Canada is kind of a backwater dump, it's just a less gross dump than the one to the south (although by god we're sure trying)

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Mar 20, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Minister Robathan posted:

I stopped reading here. You could have great, excellent points in the rest of it, but I don't care. gently caress you. This is some of the most bigoted poo poo I've ever seen in D&D.

I.. Just... I have no words.

I've heard nothing but shunning and alienation from anglophones trying to live anywhere in Quebec other than Montreal. I wouldn't want to move anywhere I don't speak the language, specially when I'd be outright shunned. Kinda hard to build up a new social network when you can't even communicate and some people will even hate you for it. Maybe it's not so bad, but I've had friends that actually spoke some survival-french move just outside Quebec city and they said it was hell, no one would have anything to do with them and they were constantly asked why they moved there, why don't they move to some city in english Canada and so on. Heck my friend's mom ended up moving from a small town in Quebec because she was from Paris and constantly got poo poo on for her language. The idea of moving somewhere where I'll always be an outsider, always be an unwanted "other" is terrifying.

Really? Small town quebec francophones can be really mean to anglophone outsiders is the most bigoted thing you've read on D&D???

Anyways, sorry to vent. This thread isn't about relocation it's just about bubbles and markets.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Mar 20, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

How exactly do they get all these stats and averages and which ones actually matter and paint the most accurate picture? I'll hear things like "Housing prices actually holding steady!" but then see all around me condos and houses selling for like 20% or more less than they did a few years ago. Because I've been aggressively looking at units I've absolutely noticed a downward trend. A couple years ago 250k could not get me a "good" unit, a year ago it barely could, and now 250k is finding me even bigger and higher quality units.

Then I'll read poo poo like "Condo market stable despite increased supply, in fact many condos are selling for above offering price and even bidding wars! Average house is actually starting to go UP so buy now". Are they just outright lying or are they cherry-picking stats to tell half-truths?

Cultural Imperial posted:

Oh please, spare me your sanctimonious bullshit about 'community'. Vancouverites are humungous assholes who don't give a poo poo about anything other than themselves.

That is the most actually bigoted thing I've read in this thread

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

max4me posted:

But any investor should be thinking what his ROI is and if prices are too high then they too wouldnt buy. Hell I backed out of another Short Sale deal when I realized the the house was soo trashed it would take up 57% more than the cost of the house to repair everything.

A family friend of a friend did this. Bought a place in a very quick sale by I think the bank or something (old couple died, no heirs). Snapped up a house in a million dollar neighbourhood for about 600k. Thought he'd fix it up for 200k or so and then make 200k in a profit. Nope, entire house had to be knocked down because the old couple were hoarders and the whole house was a write off. It's almost like you can't judge a house by just walking through it a couple times.

BUT because there's an endless supply of speculators, he managed to then quick turn around and sell the place for just shy of 700k because, even though it was fully disclosed the house its self was a write off, they made some decent improvements quick to the front and back yards and cleaned the house up. The house was then knocked down, the entire site stripped down to dirt and stone, and because there's an endless supply of filthy rich people who want o move here, 2 huge mansions built. Both sold for about 1.5 million before they were done.

Purely anecdotal, but I've noticed any large house that's been bought in the last 3-4 years had a conservative sign out front during the election, they're generally the only ones in the area. Not sure what that even means.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

If an economic system is producing results like this something is seriously hosed. Reminds me of how in dwarf fortress once you were forced from communism to capitalism suddenly half your homes would sit empty because no one could afford the rest/cost while the rich would buy up everything leading to tons of useless empty bedrooms sitting within a fort full of hard working essential people who were homeless because the economic system placed so many key labour jobs at bellow a "living wage"

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Racism against rich albertans and people from upper and lower canada, and of course !CHINESE INVESTORS! ??

Taxes play a huge role in what happens in the economy. You tax what you want less of and give breaks to what you want more of. If the tax system means no new rental housing is being built while at the same time tons of condo towers that sit empty are, then something needs to change. Either in the form of tax breaks, subsidies, or direct government involvement in housing.

In Victoria a ton of our downtown herritage buildings were rotting away with only the ground floor occupied by shops because all the upper floors were not to code. It had gotten so bad that our downtown was actually shrinking in height. You'd see photos of Victoria in the 1900's and you'd see a street lined with 4-5 story buildings, then then same street today lined with 2-3 story buildings. Same buildings, just the owners would demolish the abandoned upper floors. (Then the city would declare the new height historical and protest 5 story buildings as being too tall for old town but that's a whole other issue) It was financially impossible for them to be brought up to code through market forces alone so the city instituted a tax holiday for developers who fix the buildings up. Almost immediately there was a huge amount of construction as dozens of gorgeous but decaying old buildings were gutted and upgraded into condos. But I guess "lol so properties owners who's buildings are made out of brick don't have to pay taxes"

Yes, sometimes the government uses taxes to steer the economy.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Mar 21, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Throatwarbler posted:

Yes, instead of giving money to poor people we should just do what they do in China instead and funnel money and tax breaks into politically connected real estate developers and incumbent property owners. Tax breaks for the rich are literally the solution to everything.

Well in the example I gave, the tax breaks were only the absolute minimum to get anyone to do anything with their properties, and even then a lot of them just barely made any profit because the margins were so slim. One of the most prolific developers did a lot of them out of an actual love for old heritage buildings, it's a huge risk pulling off these sorts of renovations and the city is better off for it happening.

I'd be really pissed if it turns out the tax breaks went way beyond making the reno's economically possible and just went into the developers pockets. poo poo like that happens all the time in crony capitalism and it's a huge problem. But sadly we live in a capitalist world and when you have a bunch of 90% abandoned buildings owned by private interests you need to sometimes intervene and invest to make things better. What would the alternative be? Just seize the buildings and have the city do it them selves? I'm all for the glorious revolution comrade but I'm not sure this would have been well received nor would the city even have the power/budget to do it.

In this case, giving a local developer with a track record of great heritage reno's the absolute minimum tax break needed for the reno to make economic sense seemed like a pretty good solution. Of course almost all the units are tiny 400-600 sqft units sold for like 150-300k as crash-pads and investment rentals for the rich, but who knows who will be owning those units in 20 or 30 years. And yep, a lot of them sit empty as they're owned by people who just use them to live in for days or weeks when they have business in town. But many are actually owned by people who actually live in them. The problem is, even with tax breaks the only people who can afford projects like this are the rich. The profit margins are super thin, there's no way to make them cheaper. How do you solve it?

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Mar 21, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

The Janion Hotel alone could have its own thread... holy poo poo.

But it's still all pretty on topic in how tax policies and regulation have a HUGE effect on housing prices and construction.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Yep. Taxes, subsidies, direct investment, building codes, zoning, neighourhood, city, regional, national policies, economic conditions, banking and financial regulations, wages, workers rights, it all quite directly effects construction and prices.

And of course the bubble we're seeing now is a result of all of the above almost seemingly purposefully engineered to create it, and won't be solved by any magic bullet, and will keep happening in the future until we sort this poo poo out.

I'd love to hear some peoples ideas for solving or at least improving the housing situation in Canada though.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Mar 21, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

That's pretty much what I think every time I read about some huge government waste or gently caress up. "Imagine if that money went into transit".

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

I work related to construction in Victoria and sites get shut down or put on hold here all the time for very nit-picky code issues. Maybe I'm just not seeing the corruption/incompetence or maybe it's not as bad here?

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Cultural Imperial posted:

The Canada Line cost 2 billion. With that 3.3 the billion, how would you expand transit in the lower mainland, such replacing non-earthquake proof overpasses, creating extra lane capacity, improved on-ramps etc would be unnecessary? How is rapid transit supposed to fix all these deficiencies?

Or is this a big gently caress you to all the assholes in the suburbs, i'm more sophisticated than you because i wear skinny jeans and flannel shirts and ride a fixie or something?

edit:

Whatever the solution, you can't just shut out the suburbs because you worship jane jacob's gospel of induced demand. Why do you want to ghettoize the suburbs?

Because "more roads" doesn't work. It just leads to more suburbs which fill up that capacity. You fix things by a: stop building more suburbs, they don't work, they are urban planning, social, environmental, and economic disasters. Build transit, encourage density and the slow transformation from highway-served suburbs to transit served suburbs. Yes those exist and are quite possible, you can have your house and your train too.

It's not a "gently caress you" to the suburbs, it's basic urban planning 101 level stuff. Port Mann is a populist/political infrastructure project, not an actual rational urban planning/traffic engineering project. All it will do is enable more suburbs, more traffic. Currently suburbia is massively subsidized through both infrastructure spending and tax/financial regulations. Generally we subsidize things we want more of, and tax things we want less of, we don't want more suburbs.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Mar 22, 2013

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/empty-condo-myths-untrue-research-shows/article1151247/
So apparently Vancouver's vacancy rate isn't so high? I have no idea what to even believe.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

But suburban feelings guys :( Skinny jeans!

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Mr. Wynand posted:

"Published Sunday, May. 24 2009,"

This is actually exactly the study I was referring to earlier. And I just noticed it's the same Mr. Yan (now Professor Yan) as the earlier article. So, surely he was aware of his older methodology when he made his newer study. We can be quite certain that the newer numbers (27%) are the more accurate ones.

Ah I missed the date. Some other forum I go to recently posted that article as if it was new.

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Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

I've still never heard why a Vienna model couldn't work here or anywhere not Vienna.

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