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It's seems like it's something cities should be getting into more of. Specially poorer cities that have already had their local marketed devastated, good time for the city to jump in and start socializing that poo poo.
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Mar 25, 2013 05:12
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Nah there's plenty of cities in Canada that have directly owned or managed housing. My city recently bought some old hotels to turn into homeless shelters. It's more of a cultural thing, it would be seen as an intrusion into the private market. Doesn't matter if they built amazing affordable housing that was managed efficiently, it would be seen as government "over stepping" and SOCIALISM. I mean the goal of government is to be as privatized as possible right? But, given a socialist enough council they could get the ball rolling and if they didn't gently caress it up the next council might not totally destroy the program after 4 years. But who cares if it's an intrusion into the private market. Good. Why should housing be a for-profit market? Roads aren't, schools aren't, healthcare isn't (yet). Why is the city driving down housing prices and putting private developers out of business a bad thing? I hear that argument a lot, "If government provided X service cheaply and efficiently it would run the for-profit guys out of business". Good. If government can provide a "good" to society cheaper or more effectively than the market it should be doing so. Construction crews would still be working, project managers and architects would still have jobs, they'd just be working for the city/region rather than a capitalist employer. Hell, it would probably result better wages for most everyone involved. If a few fairly paid civil servants can do the work of dozens of filthy rich developers, where is the loss to society? You could even get some economies of scale going where the city would be a big enough buyer of construction materials that they'd be able to get better deals with suppliers. A very large part of construction costs is all the red tape and design aspects (a 10 million dollar condo building might cost 6 figures in architectural and engineering fees alone). The city could have an extremely streamlined approval process, as well as design process. Could even look at some tasteful pre-fab or modular construction options. Just because the soviets built ugly pre-cast panel housing doesn't mean it all has to be ugly. Eliminate the profit motive, cut the red tape, have banks of standardized or modular designs, and we could see some huge savings as a society when it comes to housing. But we won't, because neo-liberalism.
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Mar 28, 2013 04:10
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I think it was after the great war, but in Vienna there was huge demand for housing and "the market" wasn't up to the task of providing it. At the time socialism and outright communism was growing in popularity and a socialist council was elected. They bought up tons of distressed property along with built tons of new stock. It wasn't lovely "affordable housing" it was just housing. They put pride and artistry into their buildings and made sure everything was run and managed very efficiently. After years of doing this, a majority of the housing in the city was city owned and it owned. Prices were low and fair, buildings were maintained to the highest levels, and a system of semi-ownership was created. You were basically leasing the apartment for life, so it was like buying a condo in a way. I'm not sure the details, but you could renovate your units and everything, pass them down through the family even. Basically what ever they did worked, not in theory but in practise. So there's no reason other than political will that cities here couldn't learn from that example and copy it. It would have to be a well designed system though with good oversight to avoid 'the china problem'. But like I said, Vienna managed it so why can't we? http://www.scibe.eu/vienna/preface-red-vienna-%E2%80%A6-forever/ Here's a study on it. Even today it's viewed as a "best practise" to be exported throughout europe. The methods are there, the system is demonstrably successful. The only thing standing in its way are decades of neo-liberal propaganda that have turned the public against any sort of large government schemes. Man, read that report. The whole scheme came about after a period of entirely liberal housing development that surprisingly led to grossly inflated prices, speculation, and horrible conditions for all but the rich. It's almost like "the market" is loving awful for delivering housing. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Mar 28, 2013 |
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Mar 28, 2013 04:43
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I guess we could put some sort of minimum % of housing that always remains in the "pool" so newcomers to a city aren't stuck in the crappy fringes. Although already we ghettoize based on class/income, if a different housing model overall produces much better results but has some problems with housing for newcomers that seems like an ok trade-off to me, and a problem that's easier to solve. And really, with decent planning and development no area should be a ghetto as all areas should strive for an even distribution of qualities of housing. Market based housing already produces the worst ghettos and segregation, if another system produces overall better (even if not perfect) results I'd say it's a better system.
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Apr 8, 2013 01:47
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Ok simply solution: Socialize the majority of the housing market in Canada, plus world-wide socialist revolution in every other country so that all countries are nice and everyone has lovely housing and stability where they live and don't need to move around the world to improve their quality of life or or find stable governments to invest their money in. World-wide revolution seems about as likely or simple as fixing the housing market around here 
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Apr 8, 2013 21:09
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Honest question but does anyone here own a house? I don't know a single person even in my most extended of social circles that does. No wait I do, I know a single person who moved way out to some village north of Ottawa and managed to get like a farm house or something. Everyone else, from retail workers to PHD's, all rent small apartments or a duplex at the most luxurious. In my anecdotal experience there's a HUGE generational gap. Everyone in my parents generation owns a house, but no one in my generation does, despite often making (adjusted for inflation) the same or better wages than their parents. What will happen when all those boomers sell? About the only locals left in neighbourhoods here are boomers who often rent to my generation as most have basement/garden suites. But every time a new house goes up or an old house sells, it's always some extremely rich person from Ontario or Alberta or the US. They never made their money here, they're just moving here after finally becoming rich enough. None of the boomers can afford their houses now and the taxes on their bloated values are hurting them, they've all gone up like 500% or more in just a decade or two. I can't imagine what our neighbourhoods are going to look like in 10 years, who's going to be living in all these houses that generations were born and raised in. An entire city's stock of houses can't be just 50+ retired or nearly retired rich folk, or can it? This has to be a bubble, but at the same time it seems that anyone in Canada rich enough to want to retire here does. Then again rich people have always tried to retire to Victoria for the last 100 years and prices were never like this. 20 years ago a single-income family supported by a bus driver could afford a house that now only 2 semi-retired lawyers who were very wise with their money can afford. The city has always been desirable, population growth has been fairly steady, there's no actual shortage of housing as there's tons of construction. I'm not an economist but I really don't understand what could make the prices go up that fast and keep them up. I guess that's why everyone says it's a bubble since it doesn't make sense?
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Apr 9, 2013 04:21
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So if interest rates were higher, normal working class people would be able to afford houses again? Or prices would come down but still only the rich could afford them due to the interest rate?
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Apr 9, 2013 17:18
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Twiin posted:I don't own a house. I know a few people who own houses, but every single one of them had family help with a down payment and/or helped them go to school. Well there's another problem. My parents got tons of help from their parents, as did most of their generations friends, but my parents generation seemed consumed by debt and financial mismanagement and only a couple "rich kids" I knew had ANY help with money for school. A lot of my friends, with boomer parents with big houses, actually worry about inheriting debt rather than assets. The worry is "I hope my parents house covers their retirement costs". It seems by the time we all pay off our student loans we'll be supporting our parents. Once again, anecdotal, but a good chunk of my friends all report the same thing. Generations of family helping the next generation, growing the family's stability and assets. Family homes being passed down, school being paid for, that sort of thing. Then suddenly with our boomer parents the chain was broken. All money went towards the biggest house they could get, the most expensive car they could get, massive consumer spending, ridiculous credit card debt, constantly re-mortgaging their house as it goes up in value rather than paying the fucker off. Ooops no retirement planning, no savings to pay for expensive care if/when they need it. Helping with school? Helping with a downpayment? Actually leaving the next generation anything? Man young people these days are so entitled! No bitterness towards boomers of course.
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Apr 9, 2013 17:56
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Paper Mac posted:You can't inherit debt from your parents. Well debt is the wrong term, costs. Like having to go into debt to support them.
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Apr 9, 2013 21:43
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man, apples are in short supply. I'll give everyone more money to buy that still limited supply of apples. Hmm prices are going up still. Maybe... maybe we should just grow more apples!
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Apr 11, 2013 07:35
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That would be about 250k or more depending on the laundry situation in Victoria. I'd be fine living in an ugly soviet-looking apartment if it was built well and near transit. How do they keep them so cheap? A bit of wasted space though, not a huge fan of the layout. I'd have made the kitchen/hall/living room one large space. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 22:20
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Victoria check in! Houses keep going up in price all around me in my neighbourhood, bidding wars on condos. A realtor friend of the family was practically begging them to convince me to buy now because we're "due for another boom". I logically understand this is unsustainable but it's getting very hard to keep my wife convinced. I feel like the lone climate-change denying crackpot. They keep showing me market reports and articles and stuff saying we're at the bottom now, prices will only go up. I know though if I buy now there will be a crash, but if I don't buy and wait a year prices will be the same or go up (and then go down after I buy). In a way I'm sort of in control of the market.
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May 14, 2013 17:12
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Ok, thanks for the info guys. This house-hunt website is pretty good for data. The thing is people don't care about data, they care about personal anecdotes. In my specific neighbourhood we've seen a lot of houses sell very quickly and for above-asking. And this drat realtor dude keeps going on about "BIDDING WARS OVER CONDOS!!!" and going on about how he's "Never seen so much competition to buy!" and I keep telling everyone to pretty much ignore him but "family friend". I doubt he's outright trying to lie/manipulate but when your surrounded by the industry you end up falling for all the hype. Of course the only locations we're looking at are victoria-proper. Basically Jubilee, Fairfield, Rockland, James bay. Everything else is pretty much written off as a "yucky neighbourhood" or "too far away". Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 17:54 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 17:48
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Odddzy posted:who is they? Who do you think? Realtors, finance people, and construction/development workers of course. But they're !!FAMILY FRIENDS!! so they'd never mislead or be victims of misinformation them selves. I should be lucky to have these people with "inside knowledge" telling me now is the perfect time to buy what they are selling. Oh also the friend of a friend who works at an american car dealership told us honda is a bad company and the Fit is a terrible investment and we should totally buy an american car because they are just as well made but the parts and upkeep is cheaper and now is the perfect time to buy an american car! Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:08 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 18:05
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Yep, the moment we started saying we were interested in buying a place and probably a new car it was just non-stop wisdom on cars and real-estate from various baby-boomers, fonts of good financial planning. We've got about 60k saved up for a down-payment right now and it just keeps growing. If we buy next year I could see that being 70-80k. Even if the market doesn't go way down but just more or less stays the same I'd so love to have like 30% down or something. Every month we don't buy is an extra few thousand. We're living nearly rent-free right now so it's this amazing chance to really really save. We've also started a retirement fund but it's only about 15k each right now and over the years has like earned us $100 so far. It's just some lowish risk mutual fund thing. I'm wondering if it's better overall financially to take that out to have an even bigger downpayment on the condo so we have a smaller mortgage or keep it safe where it is being a totally useless retirement account. I guess this is more finance thread questions. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:22 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 18:16
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Twiin posted:I literally cannot even imagine how people can save 60k. Congrats! Thanks, we both just make in the $15-18 an hour range but we currently live in a basement suite in my parent's house so our rent is basically just utilities. She desperately wants out asap because she isn't a hobbit like me who enjoys basement living and feels sort of awkward living in my parents house despite it being a fully independent apartment and we can go weeks without even seeing them. One month she might be 100% on board waiting to buy and being responsible but all it takes is seeing some picture of some old school friend of hers buying a nice condo and suddenly we need to GET OUT ASAP. This despite not a single person of our generation that we know locally owning anything and everyone just renting lovely apartments little better (and often worse) than our nearly-free suite. The only reason I want to move is to have a full 2nd bedroom to convert into a hobby room. I'm totally comfortable where we are now and I loving love being in a basement in the summer because it stays so nice and cool and holy poo poo being able to put like 2 grand a month into savings. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:52 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 18:46
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Twiin posted:That makes more sense. I should have said, I literally cannot even imagine how people can save 60k without being subsidized by family. Everyone I know who owns property either cashed out on a startup or has parents who helped them. More power to you and all that, I'd take advantage of that if I had it! If I had it my way I'd hide in this basement saving money until I could buy a place in cash!
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May 14, 2013 21:18
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Well at least the liberals can be blamed for the coming housing "correction" rather than the NDP.
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May 15, 2013 06:43
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shrike82 posted:I don't live in Canada but have a colleague from Vancouver that's put down 200 grand on a condo there as an investment. She's fresh out of college and investing literally all her savings on it, saying that it's a sure win investment. She clearly should have bought an over-priced bubble condo in Toronto instead.
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May 17, 2013 07:10
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Man the only thing anyone comes out of school with is crushing debt and unemployment.
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May 17, 2013 16:54
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Lexicon posted:Hmm, ok. But the vacancy rate is still pretty low, unless things have changed since I was last in Vancouver. Most all my friends moved to vancouver years ago and their #1 complaint is how hard it is to find housing. It's expensive, but the main thing is actually just finding actual vacant units to go to see. Every time they have to apply and beat out dozens of other applicants, it's super tight over there. Now I'm of course talking about rentals at working class levels, old 60's and 70's building charging under a grand for a 1br. The type of person who buys an "investment condo" is buying some over-priced yaletown poo poo with granite countertops and heated floors and trying to rent it out for 2k a month or more. I can certainly see that market dried up since the class of people who can afford those rents probably already have some "investment condos" of their own.
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May 17, 2013 17:39
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Fine-able Offense posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commitment_bias Yep, some friends of friends (hey the same ones always telling me to buy) did the classic HGTV house-flipping checklist thing and then listed the house way too high. They refused to budge on the numbers because they hosed up their renos and demanded to still make the profit the TV told them they'd make. Instead of accepting an offer that would have seen them make a bit of money and walk away no harm done they held out for a few months then declared the market to weak to sell (this was like height of the bubble here). Then they tried to rent it out but asked wayyyyy too much rent for the area. The problem was they took a lovely little bungalow in a fairly cheap boring part of town and tried to make it look like a hip modern condo. They only bites they had were from working class families, yuppies didn't want to move there. So they just declared the rental market week and let some relative live in the house for almost free. That relative some how hosed up the house in just a few months and ended up like flooding the basement. They kicked him out and spent like 10k doing a barely-legal fix for the basement then put it back on the market HIGHER than they first asked because "we just invested another 10k!". They finally were forced to sell about 30k lower than their first offer and they moved somewhere to the US because something like "The victoria housing and rental market is horrible and taxes are out of control!!" They'd also rant about how "entitled" renters were here and how "renters expect too much and have too many rights!" Last I heard they're both in Arizona trying to do real-estate and various flips. Not really friend-friends more just acquaintances of the family I'd get to hear gossip about. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:41 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 18:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZDdcO4_5wA Vancoooooooover!!! When ever I meet someone all over the moon about how great vancouver is and how they're so wise investing in rental properties there I always think if this crazy woman.
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May 17, 2013 22:17
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I just keep checking this thread for someone to give me permission to buy a condo in Victoria
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Jul 9, 2013 04:44
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Because I can't live in one of those or get any utility out of it
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Jul 9, 2013 05:30
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Man I wish I understood half the words hal_2005 posted or could find this "regional inflation index" on statscan or bmo website. I can find lots of info on its methodology and sources but not the actual Victoria info. I guess time to befriend someone from the financial class to decode this poo poo and tell me to buy or keep waiting. I don't need "permission" but I need guidance. Just like I'm not trained or experienced in stock trading so I let a mutual fund manager take care of that stuff and advise, I'm also not trained or experienced in crazy-as-gently caress housing bubble economics and need someone to properly advise.
Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 11, 2013 05:21
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I've looked at the rent/buy figures for comparable rentals to units I want to buy and they're often quite a bit more expensive to rent, or at best about the same. I'm not wanting to number crunch like some D&D player coming up with the ultimate min/maxed character trying to see if I'll come out slightly ahead financially (and only financially) over the next 10 years. I more just want to avoid it suddenly losing half its value and being underwater. If it holds it value or only goes down a little I'd be fine with that. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/business/buy-rent-calculator.html?_r=0 This calculator tells me buying is better after 6 years.
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Jul 11, 2013 15:51
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Looking for a 2br unit close to town in a not-poo poo neighbourhood in a solid building with in-suite laundry. A quiet building with no idiot partying 20-somethings or drunks leaving beer cans and cigaret butts all over the common spaces. Also looking for a unit with an enclosed or enclosable balcony to turn into a mini-office/sunroom sort of zone. Preferably in a building with % based rental restrictions (all the condos we looked at that didn't have rental restrictions ended up being poo poo-shows unless very high-end) and a good but not authoritarian council that's very on top of upkeep and contingency funds. I've found some good candidates in the 250k range while it's VERY hard to find rentals with in-suite laundry for under 1200-1500. Searching for rentals is pretty hard too since most of them don't participate in any sort of online listing/mapping system unlike MLS which seems to have everything. I'm also looking for something I can reno, flip some doors around, maybe even move some walls if need-be. I love doing projects so my dream condo is a really lovely dated unit that needs work in a nice building with good bones. Also my car died so we finally have to get a new one, there goes 20k and probably another year of saving up. Probably for the best though as this FORCES us to wait another year. At least I'm a hell of a lot more confident in the "investment" in a Honda Fit than a stupid condo. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 11, 2013 18:03
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Oh I've found and looked at quite a few, but we didn't pull the trigger because everyone says it's a bubble and I don't want to buy a 250k condo today that will be worth 150k tomorrow. I've got no problem finding acceptable units and over the last year have noticed a slight downward trend in the prices, but only very slight. I keep waiting for a "this is it, this is the bubble popping" moment rather than the constant "maybe we already had the soft landing" or "Victoria is different!" I keep hearing. But this new car thing is great as we'll no longer have the money to buy a condo so we'll HAVE to wait another year. Well great for me anyways. I love the current situation I'm in. Tiny but comfortable basement suite in a house in one of the nicest neighbourhoods in the city for like $300, which lets us put away a ton into savings every month. If we go rent, well there goes any ability to really save and we'll either have to pay a fortune to stay in the same area and good luck getting in-suite laundry and hobby space. Here's a question though: what's the big harm if say you buy a condo for 200k and after a few years it's worth 150k ? On paper you've lost 50k but doesn't that only come into play if you sell? If you don't really intend on selling and are looking for a "forever home" what's the harm in a price drop, other than the hindsight regret that you could have bought it cheaper if you waited? Or does the bank do something crazy like demand the difference ? If I rent somewhere for 10 years that's like 150,000 down the toilet (or way more if I want more than a crumbling poo poo box). If I buy for 250k and after ten years it's only worth 150k that's only 100k down the toilet. I'm not at all financially literate as I find most of the concepts surrounding these issues incredibly non-intuitive and always hope I can finally figure this poo poo out. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 11, 2013 20:16
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That's another problem I have, I have a ton of known unknowns, but also a lot of unknown unknowns. People say to run the numbers but even when I do I leave out huge important things because I don't even know what I don't know. Plus there's all the known unknowns I don't know, like I have no clue about insurance costs and closing fees and all the little surprises they spring on you just for the transaction of buying a place, let alone all the hidden ongoing costs of owning. I like to go into these sorts of situation fully aware, I'm the type of person that over-researches every purchase I make and I'm "frugal" as hell. But with real-estate it's so loving complex, and everyone who has the information you need also has a huge agenda. I'm terrified I'll do all my research, consult multiple experts, finally buy something and then "OH you gotta pay this extra 5,000 charge up front because *finance class double speak* you should have known that before buying, idiot." And I'm not looking for 500sqft, I'm looking for about 1000-1200. A 2br. 2br, in-suite laundry, decent building. Pretty simple criteria and I'd be more or less set for life after that. I'm a bit of a hobbit, I just want a simple little forever-home where I can stay worry-free that I'll ever have to move or go on a terrible "adventure". I know buying will end up being more expensive than renting, but it's also a lot nicer than renting. The question I have is how much more expensive/risky it will be so I can correctly gauge if it's worth it. I don't care so much about the "pride of ownership", it's about actual real quality issues that I just can't find in apartments without getting into crazy-luxury rentals for rich bastards's who's 80k a year job have brought them into town for a year. It's like if someone said you can either have a Ford or a Honda the answer is "depends on the price". Yes, I'll pay more for the quality of the Honda but only up to a point. If the Ford is 17k and the Honda is 20k it's no contest for the Honda. If the Ford is $10k and the Honda is 20k then I'd still probably want the honda but have to make sure this is something I really want because I hate the Ford so much and am willing to pay more for the Honda. If the Ford is 10k and the Honda is 100k, well then no matter how much I want the Honda that price is just stupid-inflated. Basically I need to figure out is how much, long term, the difference between renting and owning and if that difference is worth it for the advantages of ownership. I'm sure everyone here puts a different value on that, some people probably don't even care at all. Heck people have different definitions of long term. I've moved once in my entire life and if I only had to move 1-2 more times I'd be a happy man. Other people seem to be happy to move every few years for their career as they bounce around the country or world chasing the almighty dollar. And the other key question is: when is this bubble going to pop and by how much? I'm fine waiting but I wish I could see a light at the end of the tunnel. I know no one knows for sure, but even some rough estimates would be nice along with the reasons for those estimates. Yes I read the thread... I read it quite often and find my self going back to old posts when I try to research things. I'm just VERY financially illiterate and I usually don't even know what half the terms mean, let alone how to put it all together and understand the conclusions. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 11, 2013 22:00
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I could get or build a house in some lovely middle-of-nowhere place up island if I really wanted to. I could probably build my absolute dream HOUSE for about the cost of a condo in the city. The problem is of course rarely with the building, but with the land. No jobs, no transit, no friends, no shops, nothing. But some people don't care about any of that poo poo. They're self employed or an "artist" or retired, they hate the city, they're totally fine living in the middle of nowhere in a big house that has everything they need. My friend lives in a poo poo town in Michigan and you can buy a reasonably ok house for 30k. Construction prices aren't that much lower there, they're a bit lower, but not that much. Like said, it's the land. Location location location. Bowen island and such might have cheaper land than Victoria or Vancouver, most of the islands do but they're still a bit inflated due to rich idiots from said cities buying vacation properties there. But the main thing that will get you is the "island tax". It costs more to get everything over there, and it can be pretty expensive to build anything depending on where and what island. And of course at the end of the day you're living on a remote an isolated island where the only jobs are "building vacation houses for rich people" and "pouring beers for rich people" and maybe "putting gas in rich people's boats". Also, hope you don't mind the power going off for days at a time. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jul 12, 2013 |
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Jul 12, 2013 15:35
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Where are you getting "twice as much" in renting vs buying. For comparable units to buy would be about $1300 a month (mortgage + condo fees) while a similar rental unit would be anywhere between $1100 and $1600. Most of those include hot water but it's 50/50 for power included. So far it's looking pretty comparable. Of course there's the actual transaction costs and legal fees and poo poo for buying, but those are trivial after a few years. What other costs am I missing and how would that break down monthly. I know there's tax and insurance, which I'm guessing are an extra thousand each a year or so? So let's just say owning is now $1500 a month. That's still getting me a better unit than most $1500 a year rentals, and then if I do ever sell I'll at least get something back. And this is at bubble prices, if/when the bubble pops or deflates those numbers will get even better. I'd love to buy some idiot's rental investment after the bubble pops. I'm sure I'm missing something though. Is it not the actual monthly costs but the risks for major surprise costs? Like the roof catching on fire or the old lady on the top floor falling asleep with the bath running? That sort of thing SHOULD be covered by a good condo council with a healthy contingency fund and insurance. Most of the units I've looked at brag about their million dollar contingency funds and long-term upkeep plans. I've certainly heard horror stories about idiotic condo councils that just try to keep the fees as low as possible and have barely any funds on hand. They know it will need a new roof in 20 years but they don't start saving now, nah, they'll just demand 10k from everyone when the roof finally dies. Those buildings tend to be full of renters though, who's owners just want a monthly profit and most likely plan to sell their "investment" before the building needs work. Another reason to avoid buildings without rental restrictions. A good condo charts out all the needs of the building way into the future and sets their fees accordingly, so it doesn't matter when you live in the building, everyone's paying their fair share for the upkeep, rather than the people who happen to live there at the moment of a disaster or major replacement.
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Jul 12, 2013 17:41
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That's pretty brutal, although those numbers for for some suburban monster mansion with a huge property and not a little condo in town, but I'm sure the numbers more or less scale down. I'll have to get someone to run all those numbers for us based on our specifics, but yeah, that's pretty bad. Everyone keeps saying people in condos move every 5 years and they aren't good for young couples. Maybe rich tech workers starting out in their career will "trade up" but like I said, I'm looking for something for at least the next 10 years, possibly till retirement, heck maybe even something I could retire in as well. I will never ever ever own a house, it's a financial impossibility even after a bubble pop so a condo is our only option. I know there's some pretty rich and privileged people in this thread but it seems more than a bit classist to say a condo isn't "suitable" for a young couple (is early 30's still even a young couple?) Tell me it's an idiotic time to buy, tell me I'm financially ignorant over and over, but don't tell me my life long dream of owning a little 2br condo is unsuitable and laughable. PS Who the gently caress wold be stupid enough to buy that house as a "turn key" rental opportunity when the rent only barely covers the mortgage and nothing else? Are there people that are some how even more financially ignorant than I am yet some how filthy rich? Could I go up to them and say "Hey I got a great opportunity, you give me $4000 a month and I'll give you $2600 back" ? Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jul 12, 2013 |
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Jul 12, 2013 18:43
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Like I said I don't make any purchase until I feel confident I understand all the costs and benefits. I mostly trust the "don't loving buy" advice here but I've never understood the why's beyond "it's a bubble, poo poo's too expensive". I'm trying to understand all the numbers, but when I get my math wrong some of you act like I'm trying to argue a side or debate the issue. I know it's fun to jump at the chance to be an adversarial know it all, but maybe some of us uneducated poors wouldn't get into such idiotic financial situations if the only sources of financial information and advice weren't predatory banks, hungry realestate agents and the entire media on one side and snarky dudes on the internet on the other. I know my numbers are wrong, I know all my assumptions are wrong, I know the media has a massive agenda to keep the bubble inflating. I'm not presenting counter-arguments, I'm trying to learn where I've gone wrong so I have the ability to finally know when it's the right time. Like you guys understand that ever single thing I post isn't a counter argument but assumed "with my own faulty math and misinformation-fueled numbers these are the clearly wrong conclusions I've come too" ? I don't need to be told I'm wrong, I know I'm wrong, I want to learn why so I can figure this out my self in the future. It's a very hard subject to research your self because there's so much disinformation out there. When I went to the bank to really talk about the realities of buying none of this stuff ever came up despite asking if there's any other major costs we're not calculating. Nope it's just "Renting will be 1500, your mortgage will will only be 800 plus condo fees! Time to buy!". I know for you guys all this stuff is "common sense" or the "basics" but for a vast amount of people, probably the majority, we were never taught this stuff in school, our parents didn't know any of this stuff, none of our peers know any of this stuff, and the only authority figures who claim to be experts are constantly trying to mislead us. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 12, 2013 |
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Jul 12, 2013 19:53
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Any advice on what to do while I wait for the bubble to stop doing what ever the gently caress it's doing? I'm currently in a very unique situation of having a place that I personally find very cozy and comfortable for $300 a month. A 400 sqft basement suite that stays nice and cool in the summer, plus a shared laundry and workshop. The whole "shared" part doesn't bother me at all because it's my folks and despite living in the same building I rarely even see them and our units are totally separate with their own doors and such. If it wasn't for this living situation there's no way we could save up. The only reason we were able to save up 60k in like 4 years is because of this. It's not exactly my dream home but as a hobbit I love it. My wife on the other hand does not. She wants big windows and sun and a little more space. She wants to not be so close to her in-laws even though they don't really interact with us, it's more just the principle. She also works in insurance (how the gently caress doesn't this guy know about condo insurance eh?) and every day she's writing policies for people beaming about their brand new house or condo. She also works with people who recently bought, or have ties to real-estate so all she hears is that we're not in a bubble, that the bubble will never burst because *best place on earth*, and that as a young couple we NEED to buy a "starter home" to start building equity (this is the hugest bullshit). All I have to counter is "well see some people on something awful said... no honey we can't they'll pee on me... no your co-workers realtor husband is wrong and these goons are right because they just are, they like know math and all these financial terms I don't understand, trust me!" So if you got the impression I'm desperately looking for a gotcha or excuse to buy a condo now I'm sorry if I came across that way, I'm more playing devil's ignorant advocate thinking about what my wife or all the other people saying to buy now would probably say. Since the start of this thread I've been totally in the "bubble, do never buy" camp, I just try to learn by exposing my ignorance and hope I can be corrected. Once again I apologize if that's been annoying in both style/tone and the sheer level of ignorance. But I actually trust you guys, and pretty much only you guys, for fairly unbiased and brutally real information on the subject. My ideal plan is to just bunker down in this suite putting away 15-20k a year in savings (which for a couple making 30k and 40k is NOT bad) until the bubble is done and then buy with like a 30-40% downpayment and have the most minimal mortgage so in the long term we're sitting pretty. Not matter how much we save up we're only going to get a ~250k place so any extra savings just means a bigger downpayment, not a bigger home. She feels like we need to do something NOW, either buy a condo or go rent something. BUT she wants in-suite laundry and a bunch of other perks that are going to stretch our finances to the point that instead of putting away 20k a year we're putting away a few thousand tops. There's also a big problem of the "missing middle" in the rental market here. It's either kinda lovely old 60-70's apartments with shared laundry for $1200, or $2000+ a month houses and condos in brand new buildings clearly advertised for short-term high-income professionals. Am I being a greedy lazy hobbit or is my long term planning sound? PS What is the main difference between renting here and in europe? When we stay in europe we'll just rent an apartment for a month or what ever, everyone we know there rents, it's the norm but their places are nothing like the rentals here. They're basically just condos that they happen to be renting, but they seem to have much of the freedoms of a condo along with a lot of the benefits of an apartment. They could renovate rooms, install new kitchens, paint, and they felt very secure they could live there pretty much forever without worrying about the building falling into disrepair or the owner suddenly kicking everyone out to convert to condos. If you say, upgrade your kitchen do you and the ownership agree to share costs or they give you a discount on your rent for X months to pay you for the value you added? If I lived in europe I wouldn't even be THINKING of buying, regardless of prices (although prices in Prague and Berlin are fuckin' nice) Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jul 12, 2013 |
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Jul 12, 2013 21:37
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Lexicon posted:Solution: Stay put! At $300 a month rent, you've got a very unique opportunity to sock away *loads* of cash. Use some of it to take the wife to Italy or Spain for a month every year, and go for a nice dinner every other week - both of which should keep her sweet (you can easily afford this with all your savings on housing). She has family over-seas and loves europe, I've told her if we buy or rent now we won't be able to afford that sort of lifestyle. Yes the basement suite doesn't have huge windows, but we can both eat out for lunch and dinner often, travel, afford toilet paper. All things we'd have trouble doing renting at market rates let alone buying.
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Jul 12, 2013 22:49
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I want my own personal airship to get around in, I demand the entire country build its self up around this concept and massively subsidize it. This may lead to a balloon bubble.
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Jul 15, 2013 22:56
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So we have a new financial planner guy and he told us to absolutely wait at least 2 years before buying anything because you'd be stupid to buy now. Interest rates are almost certainly going to start t creep up and he also agrees something has to give in regard to unsustainable housing prices in the region not even being close to the typical wages a city would need to support them. I think finally hearing it from an "expert" helped convince her. He also said our current situation is a huge huge blessing and if we can bare it, $300 a month rent is something you grab onto with a death grip and never let go of. We decided to throw 1/3 of our downpayment fund (which was sitting uselessly in a savings account) into a car, but then realized with .99% financing it actually made more sense not to pay cash and instead invest the money. We are basically getting paid to finance the car. So now ALL the money is in various conservative and moderate investments and our guy estimates we'll be pulling in 2-4k extra a year from it, which is an awesome amount of money for us! That's like 1-2 extra months of income. So condo money is now tied up in investments that we'd be stupid to touch for at least the next 2-3 years, plus we now have a 2 year car loan, and finally both parties seem to have accepted to not even think about buying or look at condos till then. All is well!
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Jul 31, 2013 17:21
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Fine-able Offense posted:Good man. Pay it forward the next time you hear a Gen Y person you know about to commit financial suicide. I tried with my friend in Vancouver but she's buying a condo now. She got pretty upset saying that renting is throwing away money, that it's always been her dream to own, prices keep going up so she's a fool not to buy now because if she waits she'll be priced out, and also it's not about the money it's about the piece of mind knowing you own. It's also in a lovely neighbourhood far away from jobs and friends. When people are just thinking about it you can talk them out of it, but when they've been bitten and have decided to do it any attempt to change their mind generally just gets them really emotional.
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Jul 31, 2013 17:35
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Holy gently caress prices are cheap there. 150k will buy you a really nice looking 3br house in an ok looking neighbourhood. That doesn't seem very bubbly to me. If prices were any lower I'd worry about the city going Detroit.
Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 18:07
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