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Spiderweb Software is a veteran indie game developer run by Seattle's Jeff Vogel, who writes and codes each game. Renowned by fans of old-school RPGs in the vein of Baldur's Gate or Fallout, Spiderweb games make up for minimalist graphics and wonky interfaces with strong world-building, storytelling and role-playing opportunities. Founded in 1994, Spiderweb long relied on the "demoware" business model, offering niche products to a small audience of hardcore gamers until a recent renaissance via digital distribution. With several games having been recently featured in various indie bundles, you probably already own one of these. What's all this about? The presentation is isometric ("2.5D"), unadorned but simple and laptop-friendly, with extensive text descriptions doing the scene-setting the graphics can't. Gameplay, similar across all Spiderweb titles, is characterized by turn-based combat employing a system of action points similar to the first Fallout games -- rarely complex but with a fair amount of depth and variety of approaches. Each game can easily last 40 to 60 hours. Demos are always available and are extensive, offering a large, full-featured chunk of the game world. The main attraction to many Spiderweb fans is in the degree of freedom players have to influence the story, which typically goes beyond a simple "good path"/"evil path" common to many modern RPGs. Settings are more inventive than the commonplace Tolkein/Star Wars pastiches that define so many games. Characters and factions are presented with surprising nuance. You're rarely locked into a certain path once you set upon it, allowing new information or a change of heart to influence your choices. The caveat to all that talk about choice is that there's no save-importing feature in the style of Bioware sequels. Because the freedom you have in any single game is so vast, it's simply not feasible to reflect the different ways each player's game could end in the next entry. Sequels adopt one version of the story as canon. Mildly disappointing but inevitable, and personally in Geneforge I came to enjoy the opportunity to "reset" my roleplaying choices and perspective on the world in each entry, without feeling like I was betraying the decisions I'd made earlier. Exile/Avernum  First coming to life as Exile in 1995, the series banishes the player to an underground prison society teeming with lizard- and cat-monsters. (Basically fantasy Australia.) Exile 2 and 3 followed in '95 and '96, and here's where things get complicated: several years later, when the old Exile engine was no longer fit for contemporary PCs, these three games were remade as Avernum 1, 2 and 3. A second trilogy followed in 2005, '07 and '09 as Avernum 4, 5 and 6. In 2011, when the original Avernum trilogy had subsequently aged out of relevance, Avernum 1 was remade in Spiderweb's modern engine as Avernum: Escape from the Pit and released for digital distribution via Steam and similar services. With the success of that project, Vogel has announced plans to do the same for Avernum 2 and 3, though not for 4-6 as they reportedly remain playable for now. No date has been annonced for the remake of Avernum 2, though it may be Vogel's next priority since the release of Avadon 2. Avernum: Escape from the Pit (pictured) tasks the player with creating a four-character party from the start of the game. While there are some preset suggestions at character generation, there are no classes or real restrictions on your build. The vast cave networks that make up the game world are freely traveled on an overworld map, with combat taking place on a smaller grid when enemies are engaged. This first entry reputedly presents the player with the least restriction or guidance in terms of what to do in what order in the entire series and perhaps Spiderweb's catalog. The series also spawned two non-canonical entries, Blades of Exile and its remake, Blades of Avernum, consisting of shorter scenarios and an editor allowing fans to create their won. Avernum: Escape from the Pit on Steam Avernum: The Second Trilogy on Steam Avadon  Released in 2011 as Spiderweb's first product available on Steam, Avadon: The Black Fortress single-handedly won Vogel wider exposure and a new generation of fans. (It's the reason I'm writing this thread.) Building on the modern(ish) engine developed for Geneforge 5, Avadon is set in a relatively familiar fantasy realm. The player is cast as an agent of Avadon, the titular "black fortress" housing a multi-national coalition of special agents who keep the peace within a federation of allied states and guard against a hostile outside empire. While the setting and story aren't as inventive as Vogel's other work, a moment late in the game is one of my favorite examples of writing for the medium, exemplifying how a writer and a player committed to actual role-playing can successfully erase the distinction between player and character. The player creates a single character in one of four classes. You have four NPC companions (one of each class) and choose two to accompany you each time you sally forth from the fortress on a quest. All have backstories and "loyalty quests" (though you may choose to resolve them in a manner that doesn't inspire loyalty). With this setup, any class you choose is perfectly viable; you just won't employ the NPC of your own class very often. Avadon: The Black Fortress is easily the most linear Spiderweb game, though you retain significant freedom to pursue sidequests and revisit previous areas as you choose. It's also probably the most forgiving in terms of mechanics, and thus a fine entry point to Spiderweb games. In addition to Windows and Mac, Avadon: The Black Fortress is also available for Linux and Android, having been featured in the second Humble Android Bundle. The sequel, Avadon 2: The Corruption was released in November 2013, drawing some praise in this thread for being more open than its predecessor. Avadon: The Black Fortress on Steam Avadon 2: The Corruption on Steam Geneforge  The Geneforge sci-fi/fantasy saga spans five games developed between 2001 and 2009. The Shapers, an elite sect of humans use magic and science to summon new life into existence, engineering a wide variety of creations to serve their masters. Eventually, some of these creations rebel while some remain loyal, and the player is caught in the middle. Two of the three playable classes are designed for the player to employ this mechanic of "shaping" themselves, summoning creations to assist them in battle. Creations are persistent, gain XP and level up in a limited manner. In my experience, the best Geneforge games offer the widest freedom in terms of story and roleplaying of any Spiderweb game -- and any CRPG, period. The gameplay and interface are somewhat primitive compared to more recent titles, but if you're willing to get past that, this is a very rewarding experience. Vogel has said he would like to eventually remake all his games as they approach obsolescence, like Exile/Avernum, but has announced no specific plans for Geneforge. It is important to note that the original version of the early games in this series do not run well on some modern PCs, though it does not appear to be tied to a particular operating system or identifiable problem and many users have no problems. Good Old Games has worked their usual magic on the versions they sell, fixing these issues, and thus that might be the best version to get. If you'd prefer the Steam version, try a demo, available from Spiderweb's site, to see if you are affected. Oh: 2 > 1 > 4 > 5 >> 3. Geneforge on Good Old Games (recommended) and Steam Nethergate  Originally released in 1999 and remade as Nethergate: Resurrection in 2007. The lone game takes place during the Celts' rebellion against Roman rule, mixing historical and fantasy elements. Unique among Spiderweb games, Nethergate allows the player the choice to start the game on either the Roman or the Celtic side and experience the adventure differently. Haven't played myself so can't comment further. Nethergate: Resurrection on Steam Links Spiderweb Software Official Spiderweb forums Jeff Vogel's blog My Geneforge thread, now in the archives  This thread covers upwards of a dozen games. Please take care to tag your spoilers.
KICK BAMA KICK fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Nov 6, 2013 |
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Mar 9, 2013 00:08
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mrs. nicholas sarkozy posted:Me too! I played the Exile III demo for like 30+ hours back in the day. All I can really remember is falling into a giant trash pit full of giants and worms or something. I'm excited for the remake of that one. Playing the new Avernum remake was pretty cool because I kind of remembered the basic plot, but not enough to be bored by it. 2 was my favorite. 3 is the consensus worst. It's much more linear and less nuanced in the choices available to the player, and marred by a really annoying travel mechanic. Does make some needed improvements to the interface and have some interesting areas. Didn't loathe it or anything but it's kind of a placeholder just advancing the plot a bit. 4 and 5 aren't quite on the level of 1 or 2 but they return to the more open world, more complex politics and make a fine conclusion to the series.
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Mar 10, 2013 16:21
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BKPR posted:I'm about 8 hours into Geneforge 1 and I feel like it's kind o a slog. I can enter a new area and kill two or three enemies before I have to return to a town and remake my creations. Is this a speccing issue? I'm playing a true shaper, and generally put all of my essence into the creations I make. Possibly you're facing enemies that are just too strong for you right now, but yeah, creations should be more persistent that what you're describing. Maybe post some details about your stats, what creations you're using, what enemies you're encountering. Also remember you should be using a lot of spells and potions to buff your party when you enter combat.
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Mar 14, 2013 20:33
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Nethergate's also one of the choices in the above build-a-bundle. Avadon is part of the current Indie Royale with eight days left. All Spiderweb games on Steam are 50% off for its current Indie Spring Sale through March 29.
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Mar 26, 2013 21:56
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Just noticed this interview with Vogel from last month; nothing terribly exciting but he mentions Avadon 2 is looking like a fall release. Also screenshots. The first might not be anyone's favorite Spiderweb game but I'm still looking forward to actual new content and modern polish.
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Jun 15, 2013 15:19
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ShadeofDante posted:Are there any other plans to remake the older games into a more "modern" format like they did with Escape From the Pit? I'm a little ways in to the game and I love it so far. I know this is a shoestring operation but seems like since both the old content and the new engine already exist the remakes would be pretty easy to outsource for a percentage. Get them out sooner and let Vogel focus on new stuff.
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Jun 16, 2013 16:45
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More or less Spiderweb's entire catalog is currently pay-what-you-want in the current Humble Weekly sale! Avernum: EftP and Nethergate are the beat-the-averages, which is under $4 currently.
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Jul 11, 2013 20:13
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:I just started an LP for Geneforge 2, with the blessing of Gatesealer. I need more people to vote on what to make the main character before I can proceed. I'll be playing on Torment and up for all kinds of roleplaying restrictions down the line, so it should be a wild ride. Awesome that you're doing that! I'll refrain from chiming in on the votes since I know how it goes but I'll say this -- one of my favorite things about the faction system in the Geneforge games, the thing I haven't seen any other RPG get so right, is the way your choices always seem to have consequence, but you're rarely locked into a certain path until very late. There's always room for you to change your mind as you see what you've wrought with your decisions. I hope you can find a way to reflect that in your audience participation without making it feel like their earlier choices were meaningless; I can imagine it coming off differently if you're not the one playing the game.
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Jul 28, 2013 18:17
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01011001 posted:Is there some way to enable/re-enable the combat log? I don't see an option for it anywhere.
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Nov 1, 2013 00:32
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There is a known issue with the earliest Geneforge games being practically unplayable on some modern machines. I haven't seen any pattern to it wrt OS or hardware and plenty of people have no issue. It's fixed in the GOG versions but not on Steam. Caveat emptor.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:11
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Clever Spambot posted:I'm not taking it super seriously but was just curious what the justification for 5 being the second worst was. Even if I did rank 5 the second-worst I'd absolutely place it much closer in quality to 4 and the rest than to 3.
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Jun 6, 2014 15:53
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ducttape posted:I kinda figured that was because Miranda was trying to turn the you against Avadon by partnering you up with the hands with the most reason to dislike it, and giving you the most morally ambiguous assignments.
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Oct 4, 2014 03:56
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Doctor Goat posted:I tried to get Jeff Vogel to give me dumps of the Exile stuff so I could try my hand at making a new Exile engine, but no dice.
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Jan 24, 2015 02:42
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Katreus posted:So I know people said that Geneforge 3 is a mediocre game... but I have it so I want to play it. I've played Shaper in G1 and Agent in G2. Agent took awhile to get going but the mass daze thing really came into its own after awhile, esp. after I gave up caring to keep my NPC followers alive. Whatever. Those jerks kept choosing different targets than me so it ended up 3 different mobs attacking instead of just 1.
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May 11, 2015 04:42
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Katreus posted:And I presume the latter part will make more sense once I start playing. I thought overworld map travel was pretty instantaneous once you cleared the intervening maps.
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May 11, 2015 14:08
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Wolpertinger posted:I played Geneforge 1 ages ago and remembered kinda liking it, so I recently tried geneforge 5 because why not and It's surprisingly good even in 2015.
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Dec 1, 2015 06:59
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I was just mentioning in another thread my disappointments with Fallout, among them the way the objective of the main quest should dominate all other concerns if you were actually trying to role-play. It got me thinking again how I think the best decision in those first two Geneforge games is that the main quest amounts to nothing more than "leave this place". No one would actually play the game that single-mindedly, but it gives you so much freedom as a roleplayer to define what's important to your character and what isn't, the faction politics, exploration, or general mayhem. If everything is a sidequest you get to write your own main quest line.
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Jan 3, 2016 04:03
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Not news to anyone but me but I just started playing Phantasy Star 4 and I was struck by how closely it matches Geneforge in straddling that sci-fi/fantasy line in a way I really like. Unfortunately also struck by how much I like my RPGs non-J.
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Mar 7, 2017 04:24
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Y'all ain't wrong, as much as I liked the general aesthetic there's like a 75% chance I'll bail the next time I start it up and hit a random encounter when I'm just trying to walk from one goddamn place to another. It's begging for a remaster -- don't even update the graphics, keep the turn/menu combat; just give me like tooltips for what poo poo does, make combos explicit on the menu (maybe require you to "discover" them first) and smooth the arcane timing rules that can prevent them from firing, collapse all the extraneous inventory poo poo, lose random encounters and rebalance XP in light of that.
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Mar 7, 2017 05:07
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I restarted, paying some more attention to a walkthrough this time and have really gotten into it now, just beat Dark Force. Got used to the idea that random encounters are just how combat works (and remember you can just RUN most of the time if you don't want to fight). Haven't found combos to be too important anyway. The guide's useful just for telling you what level you should expect to be at and what gear is important to find/buy when, information games of this era just didn't bother to convey in any manner other than trial-and-error.
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Mar 12, 2017 04:30
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Wrapped up Phantasy Star 4 (enjoyed it, but having to use a guide so much to make it palatable ultimately left me wondering what the difference between playing it and watching an LP really is at that point) and that rekindled my desire to work on my big backlog of lo-fi RPGs on Steam and I restarted Avadon 2. I bought it at release but only got a few hours into it at the time; I've progressed a little farther to Monitor Base C and it's holding my interest but the world is still nowhere near as inventive as Geneforge or Avernum. It's unfortunate how feeling like I have to service all the different NPC party members means I'm doing way more busywork moving gear between characters than you have in even the oldest 800x600 Geneforge games with the terrible UIs. Despite that I am still getting the feeling I get from all Spiderweb RPGs, the kind of inexplicable sense of freedom to build a character in my head that's like the old cliche about jazz -- it's not the writing so much as the stuff Jeff isn't writing. KICK BAMA KICK fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Mar 25, 2017 |
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Mar 25, 2017 04:30
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Kept at it with Avadon 2 and I'm enjoying it -- I half-expected to abandon it when I traded in some poo poo to pick up Horizon Zero Dawn cheap (which owns) but it's still holding my attention as a change-of-pace. In my last post I was complaining about all the inventory shuffling you're gonna do if you make an effort to take all of the companions out in the field (and care about using the best gear all the time). The thing I realized is, I like doing that. Go out on your mission, come back to Avadon with the spoils, and then it's time to put a podcast on or turn on a baseball game and spend 45 minutes leveling everyone up and sorting gear. Khalida gets all trinkets, runestones and scarabs. Yoshira gets all armor from rings up; belts, pants and boots to Alcander. Dedrik gets weapons, separated into two-hand, one-hand, shields, ranged and staves. Yannick holds quest items and specific sellables like Arcane Scrolls; PC holds all consumables separated by kind. What you'll never need again goes into the junk bag and gets sold to Duncan, then you decide who goes out next and they get equipped. This, to me, is basically what people call a "chillout game" like, Endless Ocean or poo poo like that, in the middle of my RPG. Jeff might want to streamline that in his new engine for potential customers who aren't broken-brained nerds but I'm still into it. dmboogie posted:Geneforge 2 is the height of the agent's brokenness, so you're gonna have a good time.
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Apr 7, 2017 05:05
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I liked the setting of A:EftP a lot but never actually beat it cause I ran into some cat monsters or lizards or whatever like 30 hours in that I was unequipped to deal with. What's the godmode optimal party to build for that once I finish Avadon 2, which I am very much enjoying now? I have discovered that I really love single-character RPGs where a bunch of NPCs form your party but I don't care for build-six-guys-from-the-start RPGs, the Baldur's Gate vs. Icewind Dale divide.
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Apr 17, 2017 06:05
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Also a very good chance he'll remake it in a new engine so consider waiting for that an option besides "play the old ones" or "watch an LP".
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Jul 5, 2017 23:05
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Clever Spambot posted:I wouldn't mind another fantasy setting with sci fi themes like geneforge, its a really cool combo that not many things do.
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Sep 7, 2017 04:32
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The aforementioned reasons and there's a really annoying kinda overmap deal where it's a bunch of islands with boat travel but it's implemented so between boat trips you have to waste a lot of time going into a sector and walking from one side to the other to get from dock to dock. It's also the last one on the same generation of engine as 1 and 2 so 4 and 5 seem like huge steps up in comparison, in addition to restoring the more complex factional politics. Definitely just power through if you want to finish the series cause it'll be a like a decade before the remakes get done, just be forewarned.
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Oct 17, 2017 04:30
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Haven't actually finished Avadon 2 or Avernum 1 or any of their sequels yet but backing this on principle alone and that might spur me to plow through my Spiderweb backlog. Faster and better this gets made can only be good news for the Geneforge remakes. e: I doubt it makes any difference to traffic or whatever but if anyone ever feels like this thread could use a reboot with the new project or for whatever reason, don't hesitate and feel free to lift from my OP if you want. KICK BAMA KICK fucked around with this message at 00:20 on May 31, 2018 |
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May 31, 2018 00:15
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GF1 and 2 are among my favorite RPGs ever but I'm not gonna argue too hard if someone thinks they're subjectively "unplayable" in their current state. I know in 1, forget if it's in 2 or 3, that on-screen all the time gear interface, I can imagine being very off-putting.
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Jun 2, 2018 01:04
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From the latest Kickstarter update:quote:The game engine we used before was way out of date. This engine is completely current and should support lots of cool stuff, like 64-bit Windows and mouse wheel input.
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Aug 14, 2018 04:07
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I thought the first Avadon (my first Spiderweb game, so I didn't really know where the bar was) pulled a very neat trick with the reveal that your NPC companions were assigned to you by Miranda specifically for the purpose of turning you against Avadon; it had very much worked on me the exact way it was supposed to and made me felt like the game had erased the distinction between me the player and my character in a way I don't remember experiencing before. Aside from that, though, and especially after playing the Geneforges and being blown away largely for the reasons in the post above, I don't remember too much about the first one. Actually just returned to Avadon 2 last week after setting it aside (on a second attempt, IIRC) for like 18 months according to the dates on my save files and... I think I'm gonna finish it this time but yeah, it's just a pretty competent but unremarkable implementation of a very standard fantasy setting. Not certain I'll bother with 3. Avernum I can obviously see is way more interesting but I haven't finished it either cause I have trouble with roll-a-whole-party RPGs like the Icewind Dales vs. one main with written NPC companions. Do intend to finish those some day, and I'm looking forward to the Kickstarter one even if it does sound a little Avadon-ish in setting, hope he learned some lessons.
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Nov 12, 2018 23:57
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Did jump back into Avadon 2 and have a mechanics question I've forgotten: are all storage cabinets or whatever in Avadon safe to leave items in indefinitely? Prompted cause I was using this birdbrain method of organizing all my gear between missions by splitting it up between characters, like Yoshira takes all head, chest and cloaks; Alcander holds belts, pants and shoes; and so forth. Then Yannick went off on his loyalty quest after I returned from my last main quest and luckily he was fully dressed but he took basically all the consumables and charms that weren't equipped on other characters with him and I now realize that is a dumb way to do it.
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Nov 13, 2018 05:07
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Like five pages behind cause I just got a chance to start QW last night but I loved that like the very first dialogue choices gave me exactly what I wanted to play, a half-woke failson. "MOOOOM let me go back to sleep I don't wanna do imperialisms." Build a whole character out of those occasionally moments when AJ Soprano would snark about environmentalism or something but only for the sake of owning Tony.
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Oct 1, 2019 01:19
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Was just coming to post I'd never pictured serviles quite like that
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Aug 26, 2020 23:05
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Chugging a canister in celebrationquote:This should be the last update for Geneforge 1 - Mutagen!
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Jan 27, 2021 02:29
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I think Agent was the OP class for GF1 and 2, at least. Just Daze everything and do whatever you want from there.
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Jan 27, 2021 23:07
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Demo completely sucked me back in, can't wait. Steam says I last played original GF1 in 2012. Still remember a lot of it -- was a Shaper, mostly aligned with the Awakened, wanted to kill Trajkov (iirc?) before I left Sucia but just wasn't powerful enough to do it, and I have always remembered that sense of you can "win" by leaving the island but if you want that specific ending, you have to earn it honestly, it's not just a matter of choosing the faction you want to win with fondly as a really unique design choice that a real AAA RPG would never make. Hadn't ever thought of that in the context of the accessibility (as in difficulty, not as in playability for people with different abilities) debate until now, and I think that might be more interesting fodder for that conversation than games that are just hard across the board like the Soulses.
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Feb 4, 2021 04:55
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I am getting my rear end kicked trying either path out of the first village. Is there anything other than a Fyora available that early, and are you guys rolling with more than one or two weak ones? Just the basic bandits and rogue Fyora and Thads are more than I can handle at the moment.
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Feb 25, 2021 20:23
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Zore posted:Biggest tip for early Fyora are that innate haste is worth more than just about any other upgrade so have as many as them as you can with just that. You can also grab a Thahd canister pretty easily out of the east gate if you sneak up into the building and pull carefully. Only fight the Thahdlings, not the full on lone Thahds.
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Feb 25, 2021 20:32
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Squiggle posted:Also because I couldn't figure out which - if any - of the other two classes could shape.
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Feb 25, 2021 22:31
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Respecced per the earlier conversation and just spent like four hours enraptured like I'm playing it again for the first time... this game rules. So glad it finally got remade after years of just hoping it would happen, then it actually getting announced and waiting for it. Everyone who played it before -- do you feel like you're going to make the same choices again? I went in assuming I would take a different path but just scratching the surface, I think I'm still feeling pulled in the same direction as I was like ten years ago when I first played it. Barely remember anything more than the broad strokes though so might surprise myself later.
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Feb 26, 2021 06:05
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