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AshB posted:Err... that's pretty much exactly what I said, but in more words. No, you said the exact opposite? You specifically said that an issue with the story is that people aren't 'genius and lazy' or 'dumb and hardworking' in real life. Which is implying that the story is putting them into those categories. Which is saying that Neji didn't work hard, because he's a genius, so he must be a genius and lazy in the story. Because that is the flaw in this story.
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Mar 22, 2013 19:03
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 22:06 |
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Basically even in Naruto, people aren't divided into "hardworking but untalent and lazy but brilliant" camps.
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Mar 22, 2013 19:05
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The more I think about it, the more I think at least part of the hard work v.s. talent stuff from the beginning of the manga was more a lens to show the value of a master/teacher that is able to work to the student's strengths. This is a huge part of why Lee is as capable as he is. He not only works hard, but Gai goes out of his way to develop whatever natural strengths and abilities he has. Similarly, when Naruto fights Neji, it's after he learns from Jiraiya for the first time. He then uses this to defeat both Neji and Gaara, relying on the lessons learned from the first teacher that really had a firm understanding of his attitude, strengths, and weaknesses. For instance, Jiraiya completely ignored the entire idea of developing fine chakra control in Naruto and instead worked on pulling out more power. The chakra control, while normally a basic thing for ninjas, had little value. This is after Kakashi and Ebisu had both attempted to get Naruto to work on the basics. Kakashi learns from this and in part two adapts how he teaches Naruto to fit Jiraiya's methods. He introduces the idea of kage bunshin training (normally insane) due to the huge level of power Naruto had, but his poor grasp of general chakra manipulation. He basically used one strength to completely cancel out Naruto's traditional weakness. Neji never really had a teacher that could work with his gifts though. Gai is great, but he's not the same type of taijutsu fighter that Neji is. Thus, he can't really develop Neji's skills rather than encourage him. Sasuke, interestingly, had a huge advantage over Naruto in part one not due to his natural genius, but because he had teachers with a firm grasp of what he can and cannot do. Kakashi knows how to exploit sharingan bullshit like no other and he uses this to get Sasuke to learn several things like Lee's taijutsu and chidori. This actually helps to explain why someone extremely gifted like Naruto still managed to have trouble keeping up with Sasuke in part one. He didn't have a teacher well suited to his talents, whereas Sasuke did. Jiraiya started to reverse this, and this is where Sasuke started to develop what amounted to an inferiority complex. I just wrote way too much about early Naruto.
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Mar 22, 2013 19:15
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A SPECIAL UNICORN posted:The bolded has always bugged me. I assumed Itachi would end up being a good guy, but this was bullshit. What illness? He never looked sickly until right at the end, when he was getting his rear end kicked (on purpose.) Even when he was brought back, it never came up again.
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Mar 22, 2013 19:29
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No I think that's a pretty good observation. The Master/Student relationship is a big thing in Wuxia fiction in general and it's been pretty important in Naruto. The parrallels between the linage of masters from Hizuzen down to Kakashi, as well as the relationship between Sasuke and Kakashi compared with Orochimaru and Sarutobi; the paralel between Nagato and Jiraya with Naruto and Jiraya. You could even compare the relationship with Madara and Obito with Obito and Sasuke. The relationship between master and student is a big part of this manga too. Starting to wonder if running a naruto tabletop in Legends of Wulin is doable now.
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Mar 22, 2013 19:31
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That's a pretty good way of looking at it, actually. It sort of makes you wonder how Neji would have turned out if his father had been around to see him grow and teach him (like Shikamaru), or if Tenten had been Tsunade's apprentice instead, or if someone else (Anko?) had been around to help Kakashi with Sasuke. 
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Mar 22, 2013 21:00
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I don't think the hard work aesthetic ever existed in Naruto. Naruto had a super rare technique only he could use due to having the most powerful chakra in the world even from the first chapter. There was never any reason to believe Naruto wasn't exceedingly talented at being a ninja even from the beginning. It's just that he was a little poo poo that didn't apply himself to anything; he certainly wasn't the ace, but he certainly wasn't supposed to be Rock Lee either. The only time that particular storyline was ever really there was Lee himself, and his "story" was over as soon as he recovered from the injuries Gaara gave him. Sure, Neji tried to apply that whole thing to Naruto, but he also didn't actually know Naruto was stupidly powerful.
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Mar 22, 2013 21:36
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He put in tons of useless effort during ninja elementary school, but his chakra flow was messed up and no one cared enough about him to learn what his strong points were. I'm sure there were a bunch of simple jutsus that require a bunch of chakra that someone, perhaps a certain someone called the god of shinobi could have written down instructions for. But instead Naruto kept on banging his head against the wall trying to learn a bunch of useless crap in ninja elementary school. Konoha hates orphans for some bizarre reason.
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Mar 22, 2013 21:48
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Serious Frolicking posted:He put in tons of useless effort during ninja elementary school, but his chakra flow was messed up and no one cared enough about him to learn what his strong points were. I'm sure there were a bunch of simple jutsus that require a bunch of chakra that someone, perhaps a certain someone called the god of shinobi could have written down instructions for. But instead Naruto kept on banging his head against the wall trying to learn a bunch of useless crap in ninja elementary school. Exactly - the entire reason Kage Bunshin was considered forbidden was because it was so chakra intensive that the average ninja would be killed if they attempted it. Naruto can ignore that limitation, making it incredibly potent in his hands. If the Third had taken him under his wing and taught him forbidden jutsus that were dangerous to normal people but harmless to Naruto, the first half would have been very different. Naruto would have outshone everyone from the start.
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Mar 22, 2013 22:03
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Serious Frolicking posted:He put in tons of useless effort during ninja elementary school, but his chakra flow was messed up and no one cared enough about him to learn what his strong points were. I'm sure there were a bunch of simple jutsus that require a bunch of chakra that someone, perhaps a certain someone called the god of shinobi could have written down instructions for. But instead Naruto kept on banging his head against the wall trying to learn a bunch of useless crap in ninja elementary school. Its even more bizarre considering that strangely, a few chapters ago, Hashirama actually addressed the issue of using children as weapons, yet Konoha still does it. Zonekeeper posted:Exactly - the entire reason Kage Bunshin was considered forbidden was because it was so chakra intensive that the average ninja would be killed if they attempted it. Naruto can ignore that limitation, making it incredibly potent in his hands. If the Third had taken him under his wing and taught him forbidden jutsus that were dangerous to normal people but harmless to Naruto, the first half would have been very different. Naruto would have outshone everyone from the start.
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Mar 22, 2013 22:15
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I always figured that Kage Bunshin didn't require any control. So Naruto was able to just dump chakra into it.
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Mar 22, 2013 22:19
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Dexo posted:I always figured that Kage Bunshin didn't require any control. So Naruto was able to just dump chakra into it. That's how it was always presented, really. But the technique can't be unique in that respect. There really isn't any way to reconcile Naruto's childhood with how the 3rd was portrayed. If he had done right by the 4th Naruto would have been adopted. If no one else in the village was willing to take him, why not his own clan? There are a bunch of them running around. The 3rd was a parent, a grandparent, and had spent a lifetime teaching young ninjas. For Naruto, he yelled at him when he pulled a prank and seems to have completely ignored him the rest of the time. The chakra control thing was only half of the problem; Naruto grew up unloved and unwanted so he had a bunch of psychological issues that he is only now starting to overcome. For a place where heredity is so important and most of the adults have a very high mortality rate, Konoha doesn't do poo poo for orphans. Hell, if Naruto's life is anything to go by it seems obvious why Big O hated the place so much. Of course, the real answer is that the background details weren't fully fleshed out when the manga began and Kishimoto was never fully able to reconcile the contradictions. The 3rd's personality and Naruto's lovely childhood aren't related at all.
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Mar 22, 2013 22:41
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Naruto's childhood only makes sense if him containing the 9-tails was basically unprecedented and it was generous for the village to even leave him alive at all. The 3rd might have personally cared for the boy, but who knows when the 9-tails could burst out? Gotta be careful, especially when there is no clear successor. It's not just that Kishimoto decided to be cliche and have The Main Character Secretly Be A Prince and The Handsome Mysterious Killer Secretly Be Good; it's that he went for those cliches while also contradicting his own world. I'd be fine with Itachi being a good guy if it didn't raise so many questions. Why did every Uchiha need to die, even the children? Why did the 3rd let Danzo get away with it? I thought Itachi worked well as being the ultimate product of a broken system. The one of a kind child-soldier grows up to be one of a kind mass-murderer.
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Mar 22, 2013 23:01
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It wasn't unprecedented. There had been an Uzumaki jinchiruuki in Konoha since the village was founded. Oh, and you are kidding yourself if you think Naruto's father wasn't set in stone from the very first chapter. He was always a 'prince'.
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Mar 22, 2013 23:08
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I'd assume Itachi murdered all the Uchiha children to maintain plausible deniability. It's not much of a stretch for him to want to leave Sasuke alive; Sasuke is his little brother, after all. However, if he had only killed all the adults, or only killed the adults involved in the coup, it would be pretty easy to see that something was up. Even if he did leave all the children alive, who would take care of them? There would be dozens of orphans with super-duper eyehax, how would you keep them from being abused? Or at least keep them no more abused then the average child soldier in Naruto.
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Mar 22, 2013 23:08
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Angry Grimace posted:The Third Hokage himself is very easily (and rationally) susceptible to an alternative character interpretation given the fact he went along with a mass genocide of an entire clan and let Naruto be treated like poo poo for his entire childhood for no apparent reason at all.
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Mar 22, 2013 23:30
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Silento posted:I'd assume Itachi murdered all the Uchiha children to maintain plausible deniability. It's not much of a stretch for him to want to leave Sasuke alive; Sasuke is his little brother, after all. However, if he had only killed all the adults, or only killed the adults involved in the coup, it would be pretty easy to see that something was up. Notice how this is exactly what Sasuke did? This is why Itachi has to make it a demand that he not be killed, even after they outlined this exact situation involving the children.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:14
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Silento posted:I'd assume Itachi murdered all the Uchiha children to maintain plausible deniability. It's not much of a stretch for him to want to leave Sasuke alive; Sasuke is his little brother, after all. However, if he had only killed all the adults, or only killed the adults involved in the coup, it would be pretty easy to see that something was up. I thought there were no Uchiha children other than Sasuke, or at least none younger than Itachi himself at the time.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:16
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Silver2195 posted:I thought there were no Uchiha children other than Sasuke, or at least none younger than Itachi himself at the time. Why would that be? I'm sure they existed, but it wasn't relevant to show them to the reader. I'm pretty sure it was referenced Itachi killed 'even innocent children.'
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Mar 23, 2013 01:17
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uG posted:He didn't murder the children for plausible deniability, he killed them because if he didn't they would grow up so pissed off that they would just coup in the future. Yea, that makes sense as well. I'd like to think that not ALL the Uchiha were dicks though. I think I remember it being mentioned that some of them never awaken the Sharingan? If so, maybe they don't have brain problems!
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Mar 23, 2013 01:28
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Serious Frolicking posted:It wasn't unprecedented. There had been an Uzumaki jinchiruuki in Konoha since the village was founded. I don't think anyone but the Hokage and a few of the higher ups knew about the jinchiruuki before Naruto though. Everyone seems to have known about Naruto though.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:36
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Could be, seems to be a lot of secretive rituals involved, but for various reasons the passing to Naruto may not have been covered up.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:43
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Dexo posted:Naruto had Jiraiya and Kakashi to teach him.
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Mar 23, 2013 02:32
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U.T. Raptor posted:To be fair, they were both pretty lovely at it (honestly, the Naruto that fought Pain is where he should have been at when he returned to the village, instead of learning basically nothing during the timeskip and then learning a shitload of stuff in... what, a year?) You can rationalize this as Jiraiya putting Naruto through a lot of meditation training designed to prepare him for Sage Mode. Remember, pre-skip Naruto was pretty ADHD.
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Mar 23, 2013 02:47
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Silver2195 posted:You can rationalize this as Jiraiya putting Naruto through a lot of meditation training designed to prepare him for Sage Mode. Remember, pre-skip Naruto was pretty ADHD. That and Naruto came back much better at using Clones in ways other than "rush enemy". Jiraiya taught Naruto better fundamentals, and was going to teach him how to use the Kyuubi's power more, however he probably realized that if Naruto got too far there was no way to stop him(as was shown when Jiraiya's poo poo got kicked in by Naruto at 3 or 4 tails) so he probably just toned down the training after that. Kakashi had the luxury of having Yamato around.
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Mar 23, 2013 02:58
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Prison Warden posted:All that's mostly opinion, I guess, but I outright disagree with the statement that Itachi's motivation before that reveal was better. oh GOD! There are actually people who believe stupid poo poo like that?!  goons..
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Mar 23, 2013 03:39
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The Blackest Goon posted:oh GOD! There are actually people who believe stupid poo poo like that?! I think a lot of people are just morally uncomfortable with the casuistry involved. I don't think as many people would have objected if Naruto was a seinen manga.
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Mar 23, 2013 03:48
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Silento posted:Yea, that makes sense as well. I'd like to think that not ALL the Uchiha were dicks though. I think I remember it being mentioned that some of them never awaken the Sharingan? If so, maybe they don't have brain problems! I'd think anyone who didn't have their Sharingan awakened would have gotten them post massacre. Hell, it's kind of strange Sasuke took so long to get his Sharingan in light of the recent revelations.
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Mar 23, 2013 05:26
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BlitzBlast posted:I'd think anyone who didn't have their Sharingan awakened would have gotten them post massacre. Hell, it's kind of strange Sasuke took so long to get his Sharingan in light of the recent revelations. Scratch all that. Sasuke DID activate his sharingan during the massacre, acording to chapter 403, he just couldn't use it at will until years later. Similar to how Kakashi awakened his mangekyou as a kid, I guess. Rohan Kishibe fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 05:45
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Prison Warden posted:
Im guessing Kakashis mangekyo awakened when Obito did
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Mar 23, 2013 06:13
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Veg posted:Im guessing Kakashis mangekyo awakened when Obito did There's no guessing involved, we saw that's exactly what happened.
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Mar 23, 2013 06:21
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SpazmasterX posted:There's no guessing involved, we saw that's exactly what happened. I have some rereading to do
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Mar 23, 2013 06:31
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Veg posted:I have some rereading to do http://www.mangainn.com/manga/chapter/93098_naruto_chapter_605/page_8
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Mar 23, 2013 06:44
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Thats such an awesome page.
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Mar 23, 2013 07:05
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Prison Warden posted:
Was anyone else bothered by that retcon? Sasuke awakening his Bloodline ability when facing off against Haku who also had one was kind of a big deal in the early chapters. Sasuke actually having it activate years earlier and just have it not work again until then really bugged me.
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Mar 23, 2013 10:45
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Sanguinia posted:Was anyone else bothered by that retcon? Sasuke awakening his Bloodline ability when facing off against Haku who also had one was kind of a big deal in the early chapters. Sasuke actually having it activate years earlier and just have it not work again until then really bugged me. Naruto is just retcon on top of retcon. Kishimoto just goes with it. Kind of like how Itachi turned out to be a good guy, or how elemental aspects of jutsu only started mattering much later.
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Mar 23, 2013 11:10
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When Sasuke activates his sharingan against Haku he has three of those comma things in his eye. That seems like a strange number to have from the start, so you could argue it was foreshadowed. Not to mention the massacre night was a tad traumatising so it makes sense he'd forget.
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Mar 23, 2013 12:15
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I'm fairly sure nothing has ever been literally retconned in Naruto.
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Mar 23, 2013 12:17
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Veg posted:Thats such an awesome page. Has it ever been explained why he had to kill Rin?
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Mar 23, 2013 12:39
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Pyrotoad posted:When Sasuke activates his sharingan against Haku he has three of those comma things in his eye. That seems like a strange number to have from the start, so you could argue it was foreshadowed. Not to mention the massacre night was a tad traumatising so it makes sense he'd forget. Yeah exactly. Of all the things that seem to have been made up along the way this isn't one of them. The Sasuke/Itachi plotline has been in it from the beginning as well as the (non MS at least) sharingan. It has also always been alluded to that each level of the sharingan are activated by specific emotional triggers to do with friendship/betrayal. uXs posted:Has it ever been explained why he had to kill Rin? Not yet but it wasn't so long ago it was revealed. It will inevitably come when Kakashi friendship no jutsus Obito and reveals she was a double agent who had been possessed by hypnotoad.
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Mar 23, 2013 13:17
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