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Danzou posted:I'm fairly sure nothing has ever been literally retconned in Naruto. Hm. How about this: When the Sage of the Six Paths chose his successor, he chose the one who valued peace and love: the Senju. However, Tobirama recently told us the Uchiha were the ones with the Power of Love. How about that? 
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Mar 23, 2013 14:01
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Pyrotoad posted:When Sasuke activates his sharingan against Haku he has three of those comma things in his eye. That seems like a strange number to have from the start, so you could argue it was foreshadowed. Not to mention the massacre night was a tad traumatising so it makes sense he'd forget. No, he had two commas in the fight against Haku. He didn't get the third until his fight against Naruto at The Valley of the End. In the flash back where he chases Itachi leaving the village and awakens his sharringan for the very first time he has one.
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Mar 23, 2013 14:06
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There's evidence that the whole concept of village Jinchuuriki wasn't developed until much later in the series after the time skip. If you read the original manga there's no references to the concept. The 9-tails was just some demon that had to be sealed in a child. Hell, they even referred to it as a different name in Japanese. This also might be why Gaara's powers/abilities from Shukaku were completely different to that of Naruto's. When they introduced the rest of the Jinchuuriki in Shippuden, they all shared a similar theme of powers.
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Mar 23, 2013 14:13
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NeoHentaiMaster posted:No, he had two commas in the fight against Haku. He didn't get the third until his fight against Naruto at The Valley of the End. In the flash back where he chases Itachi leaving the village and awakens his sharringan for the very first time he has one. Nope, pretty sure it's three; two in one eye and one in the other. What are those things called anyway? I've heard them being referred to as tomoe but I'm not sure if that's canon.
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Mar 23, 2013 15:00
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Pyrotoad posted:Nope, pretty sure it's three; two in one eye and one in the other. It is a tomoe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoe
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Mar 23, 2013 15:06
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Thoren posted:Naruto is just retcon on top of retcon. Kishimoto just goes with it. Kind of like how Itachi turned out to be a good guy, or how elemental aspects of jutsu only started mattering much later. I'm pretty sure that in hindsight you can see a couple examples of the elemental rock-paper-scissors before it was explicitly introduced, although I can't remember any offhand. At least I'm virtually certain you never see the rule violated.
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Mar 23, 2013 15:53
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canned_fruit posted:Not yet but it wasn't so long ago it was revealed. It will inevitably come when Kakashi friendship no jutsus Obito and reveals she was a double agent who had been possessed by hypnotoad. Nah, it's going to turn out it was Madara reflecting his sharingan hypnosis off a string of zetsus to mind control her.
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Mar 23, 2013 16:00
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McNerd posted:I'm pretty sure that in hindsight you can see a couple examples of the elemental rock-paper-scissors before it was explicitly introduced, although I can't remember any offhand. At least I'm virtually certain you never see the rule violated. I don't think you ever see people using one element to trump another really, except maybe for the Third blocking the Second's technique with a wall of earth but the is explainable by him just using the earth as a barrier. I don't think he's ever violated the whole thing that three elemental natures is the absolute most you can have without a kekkei genkai though. Even with the sharingan, I don't think you see Kakashi use anything except water, earth and lightning jutsu for instance. I dunno if this in particular is a retcon that actually affects anything though, it's just a setting element that never came up before then it doesn't invalidate anything. Thoren posted:This also might be why Gaara's powers/abilities from Shukaku were completely different to that of Naruto's. When they introduced the rest of the Jinchuuriki in Shippuden, they all shared a similar theme of powers. I was really hoping that he'd keep them a little different. It'd be cool if Nagito's chakra cloak was made of flames, for instance, or Roshi's was bubbling lava. Oh well. I don't think we ever see any of the jinnchuuriki's seals except Naruto and Bee's either, I'd like if they all had cool seal patterns somewhere.
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Mar 23, 2013 16:28
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Prison Warden posted:I don't think he's ever violated the whole thing that three elemental natures is the absolute most you can have without a kekkei genkai though. Where's that rule stated? I don't recall this at all, and the wiki's got nothing. There's a quasi-rule that it's hard to get to be a Jounin without having 2, but that's about it. I just had the generalized idea that it's very difficult to learn to make elemental chakra in the first place, even though you're starting out with the element you're most naturally attuned to. Hence the second one is even harder to learn, and really it would hardly be worth the trouble except you need a backup plan if your one element gets trumped. Picking up the third would be incredibly hard and it's not worth the trouble unless you're Kakashi, because a) it greatly increases the number of techniques he can copy, b) he has some free time because he can just copy techniques while other people are busy learning the hard way, c) he's a genius so that helps too. (By the way I always figured Kakashi's Earth is his weakest element. His Earth techniques are pretty weak compared to the rest or compared to other Earth users, no?) quote:I don't think you ever see people using one element to trump another really, except maybe for the Third blocking the Second's technique with a wall of earth but the is explainable by him just using the earth as a barrier. Well yeah but I mean, what more would you possibly see? That's what it looks like when you trump water with earth. That's pretty much why earth trumps water. Even after the elemental-technique rules were revealed, we've almost never seen a case that couldn't have been otherwise explained. Like I think the first example we ever saw is Kakashi's Raikiri tearing through Kakuzu's Earth-based body armor, but come on, Raikiri goes through practically everything so that was no big surprise. McNerd fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 17:02
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Thoren posted:Naruto is just retcon on top of retcon. Kishimoto just goes with it. Kind of like how Itachi turned out to be a good guy, or how elemental aspects of jutsu only started mattering much later. Itachi was pretty stunningly obvious as a Secret Sort-of-good-guy from his first non-flashback appearance, where he enters Konoha by knocking out the gate guards instead of killing them, which is pretty suspicious behavior for the super mass murderer of the Uchiha.
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Mar 23, 2013 17:53
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Y posted:Itachi was pretty stunningly obvious as a Secret Sort-of-good-guy from his first non-flashback appearance, where he enters Konoha by knocking out the gate guards instead of killing them, which is pretty suspicious behavior for the super mass murderer of the Uchiha. I'm not feeling that argument. I think that's just a result of the overall tone of early Naruto. He did order Kisame to go ahead and kill Kakashi & co during that fight, and was surprised when Gai interupted the attack. Prison Warden posted:
That would have been awesome, especially if the story introduced the Jinchuuriki as allys/enemies over time. A bit of a missed opportunity, for sure. Thoren fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 18:06
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McNerd posted:Where's that rule stated? I don't recall this at all, and the wiki's got nothing. There's a quasi-rule that it's hard to get to be a Jounin without having 2, but that's about it. Now you mention it in can't remember. I think I heard the elemental explanation from Kakashi and figured it was a good explanation for why he's only used 3 elements even with the sharingan, even if it copies a technique you need to be able to physically perform it. That way with taijutsu so it applied to elemental ninjutsu too neat! And then I just extrapolated. Still on think 3 is the most we've seen one dude have without some special exception or kekkei genkai. The only non obvious trumps I can think of is lightning defusing Deidaras bomb clay. The Houzuki technique Suigetsu uses is also weak to raiton which isn't elemental
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Mar 23, 2013 19:17
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canned_fruit posted:Not yet but it wasn't so long ago it was revealed. It will inevitably come when Kakashi friendship no jutsus Obito and reveals she was a double agent who had been possessed by hypnotoad. Or the more likely scenario, she probably had a bloodline thingy like the Byakugan and Sharingan that they couldn't allow to fall into enemy hands. Drastically outnumbered, Kakashi had to kill Rin to prevent them from getting it.
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Mar 23, 2013 19:48
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Any one can use any amount of elemental jutsu. They just have one they are an affinity to. Kakashi has used 4 Lightning Earth Water Fire The bloodlines come in to play when you want to combine elements in one attack. To make something new. Haku, Water/Wind = Ice First, Water/Earth = Wood Fire, Earth = Lava
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Mar 23, 2013 20:11
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I think Mizukage had Acid release as well, I think it was water/fire.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:29
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Dexo posted:Any one can use any amount of elemental jutsu. They just have one they are an affinity to. Kakashi only uses fire in the anime. The anime filler has a lot of dubious stuff like this. I think Kishimoto didn't give the anime producers the inside scoop on this stuff, so they didn't know the rules either until the manga got around to explaining.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:48
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McNerd posted:Kakashi only uses fire in the anime. The anime filler has a lot of dubious stuff like this. I think Kishimoto didn't give the anime producers the inside scoop on this stuff, so they didn't know the rules either until the manga got around to explaining. Pretty sure he uses Lightning in the Anime as well via Chidori? Doesn't he also use water early on when cloning the Water Dragon technique against Zabuza? Not 100% on that one.
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Mar 23, 2013 21:24
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The third Hokage could use any (non bloodline) technique in the village in his time so I'm pretty sure he can use all five elements.
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Mar 23, 2013 21:34
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shaggy-- posted:Pretty sure he uses Lightning in the Anime as well via Chidori? Doesn't he also use water early on when cloning the Water Dragon technique against Zabuza? Not 100% on that one. No, I meant that Kakashi doesn't use fire except in the anime. Lightning, water, and earth he uses in both the manga and anime. McNerd fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 21:36
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shaggy-- posted:Pretty sure he uses Lightning in the Anime as well via Chidori? Doesn't he also use water early on when cloning the Water Dragon technique against Zabuza? Not 100% on that one. Has it ever been explicitly said that Chidori is Lightning element? I was always under the impression that the visual effect was caused by the sheer amount of chakra being focused into the hand.
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Mar 23, 2013 22:15
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Yeah, Chidori is lightning element. The move Kakashi uses, Rakiri, is an advanced version or something.
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Mar 23, 2013 22:20
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Nevermind, apparently even the basic Chidori is using lightning element. flowinprose fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 22:31
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SpazmasterX posted:Has it ever been explicitly said that Chidori is Lightning element? I was always under the impression that the visual effect was caused by the sheer amount of chakra being focused into the hand. I'm pretty sure Kakashi mentions that chidori is lightning element when he teaches it to Sauske. EDIT: Oh, I must have been remembering the riakari. EDIT:EDIT: Okay, so I looked up chidori on the wiki, and it claims that is indeed lightning element. Obscil fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 22:34
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BizarroAzrael posted:I think Mizukage had Acid release as well, I think it was water/fire.
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Mar 23, 2013 22:36
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Obito has 2 kekkai genkai. Onoki and Mu can both mix 3 elements.
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Mar 23, 2013 23:03
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SpazmasterX posted:Or the more likely scenario, she probably had a bloodline thingy like the Byakugan and Sharingan that they couldn't allow to fall into enemy hands. Drastically outnumbered, Kakashi had to kill Rin to prevent them from getting it. No, because he'd also have to destroy the body before the enemy could get to it. Death isn't enough outside of special situations like the Hyuuga branch family curse mark. I'm not seeing much way for it to be anything but part of Madara's intricate plot to take over the world at this point. uG posted:Obito has 2 kekkai genkai. Obito has only used Uchiha bloodline eyehacks. Remember that the Rinnegan has been changed to being one evolution beyond EMS. I guess Madara just really wanted to rule Konoha since that last loss pushed his Uchiha Affective Disorder further along than even the death of his beloved younger brother.
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Mar 24, 2013 00:16
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Gyges posted:Obito has only used Uchiha bloodline eyehacks. Remember that the Rinnegan has been changed to being one evolution beyond EMS. I guess Madara just really wanted to rule Konoha since that last loss pushed his Uchiha Affective Disorder further along than even the death of his beloved younger brother. He also can use wood release stuff, or at least did in the flashbacks. That seems to be a side effect of his fusion with the Zetsu clones, though, so I wouldn't consider that the same as a person who could naturally use it.
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Mar 24, 2013 00:36
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Thoren posted:I'm not feeling that argument. I think that's just a result of the overall tone of early Naruto. There is no reason for him to not kill that random mook. He then goes on to not kill any of the people he's fighting, even using Tsukiyomi to just injure Kakashi when it's supposed to be an instant death attack. There was no reason for him to show mercy to any of them. He then conveniently manages to fail at his task when trying to capture Naruto, uses Tsukiyomi on Sasuke but doesn't kill him, and again uses all his powers only to escape the situation and not to seriously injure or kill anyone. It's pretty silly to call him being a secret good guy a retcon just because you want to ignore the great lengths he took never to commit any killings himself, which were a pretty big tipoff from the start.
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Mar 24, 2013 00:57
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Gyges posted:Obito has only used Uchiha bloodline eyehacks. Remember that the Rinnegan has been changed to being one evolution beyond EMS. I guess Madara just really wanted to rule Konoha since that last loss pushed his Uchiha Affective Disorder further along than even the death of his beloved younger brother.
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Mar 24, 2013 00:57
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Y posted:Itachi was pretty stunningly obvious as a Secret Sort-of-good-guy from his first non-flashback appearance, where he enters Konoha by knocking out the gate guards instead of killing them, which is pretty suspicious behavior for the super mass murderer of the Uchiha. Thoren posted:That would have been awesome, especially if the story introduced the Jinchuuriki as allys/enemies over time. A bit of a missed opportunity, for sure.
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Mar 24, 2013 01:00
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Gyges posted:No, because he'd also have to destroy the body before the enemy could get to it. Death isn't enough outside of special situations like the Hyuuga branch family curse mark. I'm not seeing much way for it to be anything but part of Madara's intricate plot to take over the world at this point. Not only that, but if he was going to do that for a kekkei genkai he'd have to pluck out his own sharingan and then smash it. Though presumably Kakashi has done his own fair share of disposing of corpses when he was in ANBU I doubt that was what this was. uG posted:Obito has 2 kekkai genkai. I think Autumncomet is right that the Mizukage is the only person we've seen with two kekkei genkai naturally (as far as we know) though. Every other example involves implantation of cells or something similar. Dust Element is a kekkei tota, which is it's own thing. Obscil posted:EDIT:EDIT: Okay, so I looked up chidori on the wiki, and it claims that is indeed lightning element. In chapter 314 Kakashi uses chidori as an example of nature manipulation to naruto, claiming it is lightning element. That it is lightning element is pretty obvious when you consider all the chidori variances and applications Sasuke uses which are all lightning element. It was stated at first that it's appearance was due to the super concentration that the chakra is put under, but that was before the whole elemental system was even a thing I think. The wiki does a weird thing where it keeps pulling examples of people not using handsigns or using less for techniques as signs of power (a powerful guy only needs one handsign). I always assumed that everyone was always weaving handsigns for most techniques, it's just that the manga doesn't show it because it's assumed we already know and then the anime was just loving up. I wonder where the anime is now, I'd like to see if their example for Fire Elemental chakra flow during the Kinkaku/Ginkaku fight is portrayed as such or is just a technique. It's a little ambiguous and I've always been curious what Water and Fire do when channeled though a weapon.
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Mar 24, 2013 01:39
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The anime is currently a few episodes away from Madara showing up for the first time I think.
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Mar 24, 2013 01:41
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Gyges posted:No, because he'd also have to destroy the body before the enemy could get to it. Death isn't enough outside of special situations like the Hyuuga branch family curse mark. I'm not seeing much way for it to be anything but part of Madara's intricate plot to take over the world at this point. A couple of pages into Obito's awesome berserker rage the Anbu agents specificially state they need to retrieve Rin's body. http://www.mangainn.com/manga/chapter/93098_naruto_chapter_605/page_15 I would assume this is because her body contains some information the enemy shouldn't have, such as a bloodline trait? Also, that entire chapter is awesome as all get out. Obito is fuckin some poo poo up.
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Mar 24, 2013 02:09
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Isn't it also imperative to retrieve the bodies of people like the Nara and Akimichi who have training based clan ninja magic so as to keep that secret as well? Basically the only ninja bodies tactically allowed to fall into enemy hands are people like Sakura and Tenten who practice only no frills ninja magic.
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Mar 24, 2013 02:18
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Apparently the Rock Lee spinoff is ending next week; the episode titles are all about final missions and such. 
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Mar 24, 2013 03:43
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The issue I have with Naruto being the 4th's son (and yes, it was obvious from Kakashi's Gaiden on) is that the way it was handled is a great example of Naruto's problem with scope. Naruto, as a manga, has been essentially growing in scope exponentially. From Naruto and Iruka in the beginning to Team 7 in the Zabuza arc to the rest of the Konoha Genin + Jounin in the Chunin Exam, each arc has brought with it a host of new characters. By the end of Part 1 the scope was pretty extensive, it went about two generations back (The Sannin trio being the oldest active characters) and had a slew of side characters spread about 3 different villages (if you counted Hidden Sound). This was all fine, except that the scope hasn't really ever stopped expanding, and eventually things have just gotten too big to be manageable. It's really a lot like the Star Wars Expanded Universe. As more and more of the setting has been revealed it makes older characters feel less important and the whole world feel smaller and more constrained. In the current arc we're dealing with ancient prophecies from several hundred years ago and watching a flashback told by the zombie of the founder of Konoha - how insignificant does that make a character like Sai feel. The only way Kishimoto knows how to keep the main characters relevant in this huge pool of history is by lumping an ever increasing amount of plot significance on them. The Uchiha are a great example of this tactic. What was once a [Family With A Bloodline] is now the [Direct Descendants of the Sixth Sage, the God of Ninja. Co-Founders of Konoha after losing a feud with their Equally Important Counterpoints the Senju clan. Genetic carriers of a Love-Powered Mental Disorder. Etc. Etc.]. Likewise the Sharingan has evolved a whole host of bullshit plot powers so that Sasuke can continue being important next to the plethora of Kage-level ninjas revealed during the last few arcs; when was the last time someone used the Sharingan to actually copy a Jutsu? So i'm not bothered just because Naruto is the 4th's son. I'm bothered that he is the inheritor of the 4th's will, and his mother's will as the previous holder of the Nine-Tails, and Jiraiya's will, and Jiraiya's disciple's will, and Jiraiya's other disciple's will, and then finally the 4th's will again because Kakashi is the 4th's disciple! I'm annoyed that Sannin-student rivalry thing amounted to nothing because Sasuke overpowered Orochimaru at 16 and Sakura faded to irrelevance because she didn't have new powers and heritages heaped on top of her every other arc. I'm in-a-huff because the final antagonists ending up being some dude born 5 generations ago and some kid Kakashi knew that got crushed by rocks. I'm irritated that three-quarters of the way through the story it was blithely revealed that the loving moon was created by The Ninja God, who is both the creator of the Tailed Demons and Naruto and Sasuke's direct ancestor (actually this one is kind of funny). I'm sorry to be such a curmudgeon. It's just that I've been rereading early Naruto and it makes me sad to see how far the story has deviated from the premise. There is some old official artwork, done for a cover or something, that has Naruto sneaking around in normal Chunin gear, and it disappoints me that that kind of scene never really happened. I'm actually really enjoying reading this last arc (or else I wouldn't be here), but it's just like - it literally went from a zombie apocalypse to a Godzilla battle. It's just so over the top action, and that's okay, but I miss the time when being a Ninja was considered a job and when a major arc was about taking an exam.
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Mar 24, 2013 04:14
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Y posted:There is no reason for him to not kill that random mook. He then goes on to not kill any of the people he's fighting, even using Tsukiyomi to just injure Kakashi when it's supposed to be an instant death attack. There was no reason for him to show mercy to any of them. He then conveniently manages to fail at his task when trying to capture Naruto, uses Tsukiyomi on Sasuke but doesn't kill him, and again uses all his powers only to escape the situation and not to seriously injure or kill anyone. Then why did he order Kisame to finish them off? Because if everything you're saying is proof of him being a secret good guy, that would be a severe break of character.
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Mar 24, 2013 04:24
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Scrree posted:What was once a [Family With A Bloodline] is now the [Direct Descendants of the Sixth Sage, the God of Ninja. Co-Founders of Konoha after losing a feud with their Equally Important Counterpoints the Senju clan. Genetic carriers of a Love-Powered Mental Disorder. Etc. Etc.]. Likewise the Sharingan has evolved a whole host of bullshit plot powers so that Sasuke can continue being important next to the plethora of Kage-level ninjas revealed during the last few arcs; when was the last time someone used the Sharingan to actually copy a Jutsu? Either when Sasuke coped lee, or the first Zabuza battle is the last time I remember the Sharingan was used to copy. I also want to point out that only Itach's super eyes work in a way that the Sharingan was supposed to work. By this I mean in at least the first part of the series he only had too abilities the Ameratsu (giant gently caress off fire) and Tsukiomy (illusion). The first being a super powerful jutsu the other being an illusion which according to the Zabuza battle was one of the more important but lesser known abilities of the Sharingan.
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Mar 24, 2013 05:48
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After beating the story part of Storm 3, I kind of wish the last couple chapters of it were what actually happened. The kages owning the hell out of Madara, Naruto punching the gently caress out of Obito (basically "My fists say  "), the ending, that was way more satisfying than it had any right to be.Scrree posted:What was once a [Family With A Bloodline] is now the [Direct Descendants of the Sixth Sage, the God of Ninja. Co-Founders of Konoha after losing a feud with their Equally Important Counterpoints the Senju clan. Genetic carriers of a Love-Powered Mental Disorder. Etc. Etc.]. Likewise the Sharingan has evolved a whole host of bullshit plot powers so that Sasuke can continue being important next to the plethora of Kage-level ninjas revealed during the last few arcs; when was the last time someone used the Sharingan to actually copy a Jutsu? U.T. Raptor fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Mar 24, 2013 |
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Mar 24, 2013 11:56
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U.T. Raptor posted:Also, the way the Byakugan basically got... forgotten about, even though it was hinted at being the ancestor of the Sharingan early in the series. I kind of wonder where its supposed to have originated now, since it's become the odd man out of magic eyeballs... I basically see the Hyuuga as the Uzumaki to Uchiha's Senju. Both Hyuuga and Uchiha are descendants of the brother who inherited the nifty eyes, it just so happens the Uchiha are the ones considered the "true" descendants. Remember that the older brother didn't get Sharingan, he got some swirly eyes which could have later evolved in the Byakugan and Sharingan. Maybe the Byakugan can also turn into Rinnegan if you give them Senju/Uzumaki DNA.
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Mar 24, 2013 12:45
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