Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Waffles Inc.
Jan 20, 2005

Dr. Clockwork posted:

Anew RPG group met on Thursday at my shop and I complimented the GM when I saw him with the DW book. But apparently they discussed and took a vote and the players wanted to do Pathfinder.

I’m so disappointed in them.

Bah, that's a bummer. I guess you can take solace in the fact that the DM is likely to take a lot of the DM lessons from DW and apply them to Pathfinder

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ilor
Feb 2, 2008

That's a crit.

Waffles Inc. posted:

Bah, that's a bummer. I guess you can take solace in the fact that the DM is likely to take a lot of the DM lessons from DW and apply them to Pathfinder
Yeah, unless he's one of those idiots who picks up DW, doesn't read the rules very carefully, completely misses the point of PbtA games, and decides, "I'm going to make this more like D&D." Because unfortunately, those dudes are a dime a dozen.

Tenebrous Tourist
Aug 28, 2008

Has anyone else been keeping tabs on Worlds of Adventure? It's an in-development fan update to Dungeon World to add in some stuff we're seeing in more "modern" PbtA games. The .3 draft combines Strength and Constitution into one stat, reworks some of the basic moves (Defy Danger can still use any stat, I'm just as disappointed as you) and replaces alignments/drives with Keys, which I hadn't seen before but look really interesting and easy to engage with. Here's a link to their Google Drive if you want to take a look at what they have so far.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BzeF5GXNEsnfS3dyRlllYlNFZTA

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006

Jimmeeee posted:

(Defy Danger can still use any stat, I'm just as disappointed as you)

What's wrong with that?

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

hello, lads, ladettes, and binary-nonconforming chums

my group is getting ready to wrap up our yearlong DW campaign and is looking to start up a new one this summer.

This campaign we ran with pretty much just the basic Koebel/Letorra rules, but for the next one we are looking to hack some things and add some homebrew to spice things up.

Specifically what I am looking at right now is changing the damage model (which the book sorta encourages people to try).

I don't care about "balance", but I do care about fun and satisfaction. Using the damage model in the base game, it is easy to roll spectacularly well on your actual Hack & Slash or Volley move, then roll a 1 or 2 on your damage die, effectively wiping out that good result. We have had this happen in streaks during our current campaign. This, of course, is because damage is just a flat single-die roll without any sort of normal or near-normal distribution around the average.

It's not as big of a deal for fighters or paladins since, if they pursue certain moves, they end up rolling a whole fistful of dice in addition to the damage die. But it does matter for the playbooks that have fewer options for improving their damage.

Ideas we have floated for replacing the base damage die roll:

- Roll 2d6+STR for damage.

- Roll base damage die twice, keep the higher result.

- Keep base damage mechanics, but buff weapons significantly.

- Just make damage a flat number (probably the average value of the current damage die) rather than a die roll, like in every other PBtA game

- Change the Hack & Slash and Volley rules so that they can do other things besides damage (Currently, Defend and Called Shot feel more satisfying to trigger than Hack & Slash or Volley, I think mostly because they offer choices).

Does anyone here have any experience changing the damage mechanics? Tips?

PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Apr 21, 2018

Tenebrous Tourist
Aug 28, 2008

PerniciousKnid posted:

What's wrong with that?

Good question- I'm coming from AW and Monsterhearts, where the equivalent moves both queue off of one stat. That makes sense for both of those games in terms of the genres they're both trying to emulate, where in the fiction some characters are just better at handling tough poo poo than others.

My games of DW usually feature players trying to use their highest stat for Defy Danger, so everyone usually ends up on pretty equal footing. But maybe that fits the genre here too, since the characters are all murderhobos of some sort instead of the range of playbooks we see in the other two games, so it's expected that they'd all be equally talented at getting out of trouble, albeit in their own unique ways.

ElegantFugue
Jun 5, 2012

PupsOfWar posted:

Does anyone here have any experience changing the damage mechanics? Tips?

In my own games, I've used the damage dice as a sort of sliding scale between "damage" and "narrative effects." If they hit but roll low damage, they do something like crack the enemy's shield or knock their weapon away or leave them off-balance and open to attacks. It's pretty loose, but giving some kind of boost when they roll under half or a third of their max seems reasonable.

Lurks With Wolves
Jan 14, 2013

At least I don't dance with them, right?

PerniciousKnid posted:

What's wrong with that?

To quote myself from the PBTA thread on the subject of multi-stat moves:

Lurks With Wolves posted:

I'm going to elaborate on this a bit more, because multi-stat moves in PBTA games are my white whale and I don't want anyone to think they should never touch them under any circumstances.

So, multi-stat moves are fundamentally things you want a lot of character types to be good at in their own way. Take Finish Them from Fellowship. It can be used with any stat, because it's about the myriad ways you can defeat an enemy (combat or otherwise) and everyone being able to contribute is a key thing thematically, with each stat having a very clear set of situations where it would apply. For a more restricted example, take Talk Sense from Fellowship. (I have Fellowship handy right now and it has good examples, so sue me.) You can Talk Sense with Sense, Wisdom or Grace. Sense if you're talking about your plan because Sense is about being observant and planning things out, Wisdom if you're appealing to their emotions because Wisdom is about being attuned to people, Grace if you're getting by on flash or lying to people's faces because Grace is about being a tricky, flashy fucker. (I'm playing an rear end in a top hat elf in a Fellowship game, so I'm biased.) And this works, because those are all valid ways to convince people to do something for you and there isn't a good reason to split those off into separate moves.

Now, why does Defy Danger suck? Three reasons.
1) D&D stats just suck in general. The stats have vague, badly-balanced areas they cover, so a move that uses multiple stats are going to be vague and badly-balanced no matter what.
2) Dungeon World's moveset just kind of sucks. The moves are weird and don't cover much, so 75% of what you'll want to do is just going to default to "eh, try Defy Danger".
3) Defying Danger is just too broad for one single move. "When you defy danger, do X" could trigger at literally any time. I know I just mentioned a broad multi-stat move in the form of Finish Them, but "when you attempt to defeat an enemy you hold an advantage over" is so much more specific than just defying danger and the Fellowship stats and how they'd interact with a multi-stat move are so much more clearly defined than the six D&D stats.

Anyway, a pulpy adventure game like Dungeon World has a place for a multi-stat move that covers doing a bunch of pulpy nonsense like Defy Danger, but you're going to need to think about it more than they did with Defy Danger.

Anyway, I can't speak for how well Worlds of Adventure handles any of that. It's just something to keep in mind.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry

Jimmeeee posted:

Good question- I'm coming from AW and Monsterhearts, where the equivalent moves both queue off of one stat. That makes sense for both of those games in terms of the genres they're both trying to emulate, where in the fiction some characters are just better at handling tough poo poo than others.

My games of DW usually feature players trying to use their highest stat for Defy Danger, so everyone usually ends up on pretty equal footing. But maybe that fits the genre here too, since the characters are all murderhobos of some sort instead of the range of playbooks we see in the other two games, so it's expected that they'd all be equally talented at getting out of trouble, albeit in their own unique ways.

It's partly that, and partly that I imagine Defy Danger is there as an indication to the players that if weird dungeon poo poo is happening to you, your stats can help you deal with it.

Like if you're a hawk in the middle of a power dive at some mysterious robed figure and suddenly he looks up at you and shakes his head and you feel your hawkness diving away from you, which is bad because then you're just some druid who can't fly. O poo poo SON WHAT DO?!

(It also frees the GM up to pitch some absolutely bonkers stuff.)

PupsOfWar posted:

I don't care about "balance", but I do care about fun and satisfaction. Using the damage model in the base game, it is easy to roll spectacularly well on your actual Hack & Slash or Volley move, then roll a 1 or 2 on your damage die, effectively wiping out that good result. We have had this happen in streaks during our current campaign. This, of course, is because damage is just a flat single-die roll without any sort of normal or near-normal distribution around the average.

If you roll 5 less than your maximum damage, you may instead opt to give an ally of your choice +1 forward against that enemy.
If you roll 7 less than your maximum damage, you may instead opt to occupy your enemy's attention so an ally can elude or attack them unaware.
If you roll 9 less than your maximum damage, you may instead opt to have them lose hold of something important.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010

PupsOfWar posted:

hello, lads, ladettes, and binary-nonconforming chums

my group is getting ready to wrap up our yearlong DW campaign and is looking to start up a new one this summer.

This campaign we ran with pretty much just the basic Koebel/Letorra rules, but for the next one we are looking to hack some things and add some homebrew to spice things up.

Specifically what I am looking at right now is changing the damage model (which the book sorta encourages people to try).

I don't care about "balance", but I do care about fun and satisfaction. Using the damage model in the base game, it is easy to roll spectacularly well on your actual Hack & Slash or Volley move, then roll a 1 or 2 on your damage die, effectively wiping out that good result. We have had this happen in streaks during our current campaign. This, of course, is because damage is just a flat single-die roll without any sort of normal or near-normal distribution around the average.

It's not as big of a deal for fighters or paladins since, if they pursue certain moves, they end up rolling a whole fistful of dice in addition to the damage die. But it does matter for the playbooks that have fewer options for improving their damage.

Ideas we have floated for replacing the base damage die roll:

- Roll 2d6+STR for damage.

- Roll base damage die twice, keep the higher result.

- Keep base damage mechanics, but buff weapons significantly.

- Just make damage a flat number (probably the average value of the current damage die) rather than a die roll, like in every other PBtA game

- Change the Hack & Slash and Volley rules so that they can do other things besides damage (Currently, Defend and Called Shot feel more satisfying to trigger than Hack & Slash or Volley, I think mostly because they offer choices).

Does anyone here have any experience changing the damage mechanics? Tips?

I had the reverse problem, where I would undercook my damage numbers slightly, and end up barely chipping away at any of my players health, especially once armour got involved. And it always felt noticeable (and petty) if I was then piling on some narrative effect as well:
"I'm gonna try and roll out the way of all those arrows" *rolls a 3*
"okay your pack is too cumbersome and slows your dodge, the arrows turn you into a pincushion, take d6 +3 damage"
"with my armour, I take 1 damage"


I did chew over the idea of having armour as a stat that you roll like the others, instead of subtracting from damage. It would give an alternative to defy danger and would feel a lot more active than faffing about with damage rolls that end up not doing anything.
"what do you do about the giant hail of arrows coming towards you?"
"i'm wearing full plate and have a shield the size of car, I don't give a poo poo" *rolls to not give a poo poo*

It's specifically DD with Dex that I struggle with - it's so easy to interpret it as a straight up dodge roll, and it becomes kind of a one-note move.

Overemotional Robot
Mar 16, 2008

Robotor just hasn't been the same since 9/11...
After going back to the default harm clock from AW I def. Like it better than HP. My players definitely give a poo poo now before they enter combat because it can be so deadly.

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.
Yeah, give weapons flat stats, +pluses and -drawbacks.

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006

Overemotional Robot posted:

After going back to the default harm clock from AW I def. Like it better than HP. My players definitely give a poo poo now before they enter combat because it can be so deadly.

Should probably make it a torch or something though for Dungeon World.

ShineDog
May 21, 2007
It is inevitable!
To me, it's not the moves that sing in pbta so much as that incredibly simple and elegant core mechanic that can cover basically any situation. Defy danger is just that core mechanic, a framework for a custom move made really obvious.

It's exploitable because dnd stats are indeed poo poo and people could theoretically get away with rolling their best stat forever but you can easily stop any bullshit by porting over bitds player rule of 'don't be a weasel'.

It's pretty good as far as I'm concerned

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry

Strom Cuzewon posted:

I had the reverse problem, where I would undercook my damage numbers slightly, and end up barely chipping away at any of my players health, especially once armour got involved. And it always felt noticeable (and petty) if I was then piling on some narrative effect as well:
"I'm gonna try and roll out the way of all those arrows" *rolls a 3*
"okay your pack is too cumbersome and slows your dodge, the arrows turn you into a pincushion, take d6 +3 damage"
"with my armour, I take 1 damage"

I did chew over the idea of having armour as a stat that you roll like the others, instead of subtracting from damage. It would give an alternative to defy danger and would feel a lot more active than faffing about with damage rolls that end up not doing anything.
"what do you do about the giant hail of arrows coming towards you?"
"i'm wearing full plate and have a shield the size of car, I don't give a poo poo" *rolls to not give a poo poo*

Just keep it in mind, I guess? People have deliberately taken steps so that they need a heavy hitter or a bunch of dudes to even crack the shell. It's completely reasonable to consider the other effects of being dogpiled by six goblins if being stabbed by six goblins doesn't actually do any damage. Similarly with being pelted by arrows by six goblins.

Damage by itself is attached to a threat. Pretty much nobody in the game is going to die in one hit from full health. It's something that racks up, and it absolutely can be accompanied by other narrative consequences.

Strom Cuzewon posted:

It's specifically DD with Dex that I struggle with - it's so easy to interpret it as a straight up dodge roll, and it becomes kind of a one-note move.

An actual Dodge Roll start to finish is... probably just Hack and Slash, really? You're engaged with an enemy in melee and you're trying to hit them and not get hit?

It's also cool to attach a price to Defy Danger. Just, you know, mention it ahead of time. You're charging through a hail of arrows, you're going to take d6+3 damage whatever else happens. You're diving down a floor onto the winged demon, you won't be able to get back up. You're running through the van de Graff Doom Dome, agility isn't really a factor here, just roll +armor and you want to fail this one.

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

Jimmeeee posted:

Good question- I'm coming from AW and Monsterhearts, where the equivalent moves both queue off of one stat. That makes sense for both of those games in terms of the genres they're both trying to emulate, where in the fiction some characters are just better at handling tough poo poo than others.

My games of DW usually feature players trying to use their highest stat for Defy Danger, so everyone usually ends up on pretty equal footing. But maybe that fits the genre here too, since the characters are all murderhobos of some sort instead of the range of playbooks we see in the other two games, so it's expected that they'd all be equally talented at getting out of trouble, albeit in their own unique ways.

My current GM will often have us roll DD with a specific stat, like a d&d saving throw

I know "like d&d" isn't really a phrase you want to say too often with this system, but otoh it makes sense that, if you get in trouble trying to use your mind-reading dagger to interface with an ancient unknowable horror, you can't get out of that by being muscly

Strom Cuzewon posted:


I did chew over the idea of having armour as a stat that you roll like the others, instead of subtracting from damage. It would give an alternative to defy danger and would feel a lot more active than faffing about with damage rolls that end up not doing anything.
"what do you do about the giant hail of arrows coming towards you?"
"i'm wearing full plate and have a shield the size of car, I don't give a poo poo" *rolls to not give a poo poo*


I did this once for an AW hack I made - a sci-fi game with powered armor and energy shields
found it a bit too cumbersome, encouraged players to hunker down behind their personal defenses too much

PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Apr 23, 2018

kujeger
Feb 19, 2004

OH YES HA HA

PupsOfWar posted:

My current GM will often have us roll DD with a specific stat, like a d&d saving throw

I know "like d&d" isn't really a phrase you want to say too often with this system, but otoh it makes sense that, if you get in trouble trying to use your mind-reading dagger to interface with an ancient unknowable horror, you can't get out of that by being muscly

Isn't the Defy Danger bit kind of covered by having the player describe what they do to defy the danger, and thus roll the appopriate thing?

e.g. it's not "I want to Defy Danger the mind-reading dagger. I pick STR.", but rather "I steel my mind against the horror, rolling WIS to Defy Danger". Or maybe even "I crush the dagger with my iron grip before the connection overwhelms me. Rolling STR to Defy Danger."

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


kujeger posted:

Isn't the Defy Danger bit kind of covered by having the player describe what they do to defy the danger, and thus roll the appopriate thing?

e.g. it's not "I want to Defy Danger the mind-reading dagger. I pick STR.", but rather "I steel my mind against the horror, rolling WIS to Defy Danger". Or maybe even "I crush the dagger with my iron grip before the connection overwhelms me. Rolling STR to Defy Danger."

I thought it was that the player describes what they do to avoid it, and the GM decides what stat is associated with it? Something about players only decrying what they do and the GM determines how?

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

kujeger posted:

Isn't the Defy Danger bit kind of covered by having the player describe what they do to defy the danger, and thus roll the appopriate thing?

e.g. it's not "I want to Defy Danger the mind-reading dagger. I pick STR.", but rather "I steel my mind against the horror, rolling WIS to Defy Danger". Or maybe even "I crush the dagger with my iron grip before the connection overwhelms me. Rolling STR to Defy Danger."

Pollyanna posted:

I thought it was that the player describes what they do to avoid it, and the GM decides what stat is associated with it? Something about players only decrying what they do and the GM determines how?

To a degree, both are true. Chances are a player knows what stat they're trying to use when they narrate an action and the GM's probably going to go with it unless it doesn't make any sense in the fiction. An armored fighter trying to avoid damage by weathering an attack with a shield is probably CON, but maybe STR instead if they're also trying to like hold back the monster as it tries to get through them to get to the people they're defending, that kind of thing. If a character gets poisoned, maybe someone tough would say they're trying to just resist its effects (with CON) but maybe an alchemist character could make a good case for using their INT to quickly whip up an antidote from the herbs they have in their pack.

Players aren't "supposed" to call their moves but it happens. As long as they lead off with actual narration I don't mind it.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

kujeger posted:

Isn't the Defy Danger bit kind of covered by having the player describe what they do to defy the danger, and thus roll the appopriate thing?

e.g. it's not "I want to Defy Danger the mind-reading dagger. I pick STR.", but rather "I steel my mind against the horror, rolling WIS to Defy Danger". Or maybe even "I crush the dagger with my iron grip before the connection overwhelms me. Rolling STR to Defy Danger."
Well sometimes they want to stylishly breakdance out of the way using Cha - at some point you gotta make a ruling and depends on the tone of your game.

Harvey Mantaco
Mar 6, 2007

Someone please help me find my keys =(
"Sure, try to stop the rushing ogre by yelling STOP to surprise and confuse it for a moment or doing the 'ol point behind him and shout "look, an _____!", but if you fail and haven't tried to defend yourself... it's going to be rough"

Would that work?

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

Well sometimes they want to stylishly breakdance out of the way using Cha - at some point you gotta make a ruling and depends on the tone of your game.

I'm thinking something like a Star Lord dance-off or a crossdressing Bugs Bunny.

D&D was lousy with this stuff, like a fencing class that let you Dodge with INT or whatever. Dungeon World is only as silly as you make it.

Harvey Mantaco posted:

"Sure, try to stop the rushing ogre by yelling STOP to surprise and confuse it for a moment or doing the 'ol point behind him and shout "look, an _____!", but if you fail and haven't tried to defend yourself... it's going to be rough"

Would that work?

I think it could, if ogres are established as being particularly stupid in your world. Or maybe this is the roll that establishes it.

PerniciousKnid fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Apr 23, 2018

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry

Harvey Mantaco posted:

"Sure, try to stop the rushing ogre by yelling STOP to surprise and confuse it for a moment or doing the 'ol point behind him and shout "look, an _____!", but if you fail and haven't tried to defend yourself... it's going to be rough"

Would that work?

Adding the general Controlled/Risky/Desperate descriptors from Blades in the Dark might not be a bad idea, in terms of consequences you might expect to face on a 9-.

Impermanent
Apr 1, 2010
Controlled/risky/desperate as a way of mapping to easy/medium/hard saves would actually be a pretty cool dw hack. All saves against ogres using strong or con are desperate - they're big. All saves against them with Cha or Dex are risky - theyve got average reflexes. All saves against them with Int or Wis are controlled - they're stupid.

Harvey Mantaco
Mar 6, 2007

Someone please help me find my keys =(

Impermanent posted:

Controlled/risky/desperate as a way of mapping to easy/medium/hard saves would actually be a pretty cool dw hack. All saves against ogres using strong or con are desperate - they're big. All saves against them with Cha or Dex are risky - theyve got average reflexes. All saves against them with Int or Wis are controlled - they're stupid.

It's interesting, it's very subjective and I'd imagine hinges on the table having a fairly similar mindset or the ability to negotiate a baseline fairly reliably. I'd have thought the Int/wis would be hardest as I always think of the barbarian flesh being the counter to the egotistical bookish wizard in a very conan kind of way (the lack of intelligence as an advantage even).

"Puny wizard"

It's a cool idea though I'm going to run it by my friends.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I’m considering GMing for the first time (I’m fairly new to TTRPGS), and I am thinking of running a Dungeon World one-shot. I have no idea if I’d do particularly well, but I’m mega curious so I figured I’d try.

The question I have is how to get the most out of a one-shot that would probably last at most a few hours (3~4?), while still allowing it to last more sessions if it has to? What can I do to get the most action out of the session, so that the time we spend is as engaging and productive as possible? Should I try and timebox the adventure to those few hours, or just let it go longer if it ends up extending that far? Should I aim for a smaller adventure/quest to start out?

And should I select for people who have played DW before, or is it ok if we’re all pretty new? What should I do in the latter case? Should I expect the players to study the book before starting?

I know that character creation can take a session on its own, is that a concern?

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 17:00 on May 3, 2018

Nemesis Of Moles
Jul 25, 2007

Dungeon World Character Gen is very very fast compared to most RPGs, you'll be done in 30 minutes, a lil more if you take your time to explain the rules.

If its your very very first time GMing and you're new to TTRPGs, it might be a good idea to run one of the more well liked packaged adventures like The Slave Pits Of Drazhu or something. Most of the ones people really like last a couple hours and are usually very open ended and allow for a campaign to naturally spawn from the ending. That said, I'd personally recommend going over the GM section of the core book and seeing if you think you can run your own one-shot. So much of Dungeon World's uniqueness is in how it handles "filling in the blanks" that running packaged adventures often distracts from that design choice. I say this as someone who has written and sold a couple adventures myself, I'd still say rolling your own is best.

My advice on that front would be to come up with a core idea (Haunted mansion, Moon full of demons, A big worm you have to explore) and a handful of designed encounters, with a general idea of what enemies you'll have in those areas, what neat scenery you'll have, maybe one or two puzzles/challenges, then just go in and be open to changing as your players chip in and shape the world through their suggestions. Ask them questions to paint in the lines you lay down and you'll find, hopefully, that its not as much work as it seems.

Most importantly though, read the GM section, learn your GM moves, use them judiciously whenever they make sense.

actually most importantly have a blast, say yes to silly poo poo, enjoy yourself cause DW is a loving treat to run compared to almost every other system in the universe

For your other question; I've successfully had RPG newbies playing Dungeon World within 10 minutes. I'm kind of an old hand at this, but the rules for every character is basically written on their sheet for them, and the general rules that the players need to know is on another sheet. You only really need to explain the dice system (2d6+mod (thanks for correcting that), 1-6=Fail, 7-9=Succeed at Cost, 10+=success), a brief idea of how Moves work (Describe a thing, if Thing is what triggers a Move ((I.E. The text on the move says it triggers on x and you do something akin to x)) then Read Move and Do Move) and how your GM moves work (I will use these whenever you roll badly or theres a lull or w/e) and that's it. It's very intuitive. Players who know DW will obv be better at it, but some of my best games have been entirely green players at Cons where I've had 3 hours to teach and run an entire game.

Nemesis Of Moles fucked around with this message at 18:15 on May 3, 2018

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS
*embarrassed to point out a typo but it's important enough to do anyway* it's 2d6

Waffles Inc.
Jan 20, 2005

Pollyanna posted:

I’m considering GMing for the first time (I’m fairly new to TTRPGS), and I am thinking of running a Dungeon World one-shot. I have no idea if I’d do particularly well, but I’m mega curious so I figured I’d try.

The question I have is how to get the most out of a one-shot that would probably last at most a few hours (3~4?), while still allowing it to last more sessions if it has to? What can I do to get the most action out of the session, so that the time we spend is as engaging and productive as possible? Should I try and timebox the adventure to those few hours, or just let it go longer if it ends up extending that far? Should I aim for a smaller adventure/quest to start out?

And should I select for people who have played DW before, or is it ok if we’re all pretty new? What should I do in the latter case? Should I expect the players to study the book before starting?

I know that character creation can take a session on its own, is that a concern?

I've run two sessions of DW and basically half of my life DMing D&D (3e, 3.5e, 5e) and I think DW is probably the most fun and easiest to DM game system I've encountered and played, even for a new DM.

This is going to be a deeply unsatisfying answer, but due to the nature of the game, the answers to your questions are driven entirely by how your players interact with the world. The core conceit of the system is that the fiction and the narrative drives everything that happens. You don't pre-create the world the way you would for D&D. You might have some ideas, but you necessarily require input from the players, since the game world is theirs too ("draw maps, leave blanks")

So as a result, the players don't need to know anything about the system before playing, really. In fact it's probably easier for someone to understand if they haven't played D&D before, since D&D players will have to break the habit of asking you if they can do an action instead of just doing it.

And yeah I think a session 0 is absolutely necessary. I used ours to have everyone create their characters and introduce them, then I we all fleshed out the world; any time a new city or location was mentioned, it went on a notecard on the table, thus we created our map. Then the players developed their bonds and shared backstories, then I dropped them into basically a scenario I drew out of a hat, which was "you're running from a fire that you didn't start, suddenly you're surrounded by an angry mob"

Here's my first session summary (all of the notation is because of the tool Campaign-Logger that I use)

My Campaign Log posted:

@Krieg and @Jannos, after having been drinking at a bar in #Maro they found themselves in #Finning Forest, surrounded by an angry mob of ^Fox People from the town of #Felicitus . The mob, being held back by their mayor @Gerry Feathertoes was convinced that @Krieg and @Jannos were responsible for the burning of their crops and the theft of their town treasure. Witnesses had identified the thieves of the treasure as a large human and a dwarf.

Seeing the fire in the forest, @Halek came upon the scene and had @King put out the fire and attempted to negotiate a peace. But @Gerry Feathertoes and the townspeople wanted @Krieg and @Jannos to stand trial.

Meanwhile, @Chester Strange and @Celia Featherstone were sneaking through the forest on route to #Tarnok the Mining Village in their quest to steal a container of highly valuable !Zelium . They were accosted by a group of^"Fox People" and corralled with the other party members.

The mob began to agitate and, sensing a threat, @Krieg and @Jannos began to swing, with @Krieg killing several ^Fox People, including the wife and child of @Peter Pointer. Horrified, the ^Fox People scattered and ran off back to #Felicitus

@Halek hurried everyone back to his cabin, wherein some discussions took place, but followed shortly the dropping of the anchor from the #Jollyshippe, the vessel captained by the famed @Dread Pirate Baldric.

@Dread Pirate Baldric and his crew were the ones who set the fields afire and stole the treasure from #Felicitus . And the party were combination bribed/invited/kidnapped aboard the #Jollyshippe in order to force them to go into a dungeon to retrieve a treasure marked on a map that was stolen from #Felicitus

The ship came upon a sky island a the plank platform was lowered across the gap, causing the party to have to cross it under fire from inhabitants of the island.

Essentially everything that happened is a result of "yes, and" and "no, but" improv, with actually very few moves.

So this is a long way to go to say, you can absolutely do a one-shot, but Dungeon World to me has so far felt much more like a system where the players create the stories they want to tell, which may take more than one session

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006

Pollyanna posted:

I’m considering GMing for the first time (I’m fairly new to TTRPGS), and I am thinking of running a Dungeon World one-shot. I have no idea if I’d do particularly well, but I’m mega curious so I figured I’d try.
I would direct you to Dragonslaying on a Timetable: Running Tight 4-Hour Dungeon World One-Shots With Zero Preparation as a resource.

Personally I would not recommend using a pre-written dungeon. As an inexperienced improv-poor DM myself, I found it to be distracting as I tried to steer toward pre-determined elements. Instead, read/watch as much material as you can for ideas, and focus on building on your players' contributions. But, I'm not a terribly creative person at heart, so I feel like if I'm going to make Dungeon World's improvisational style work, I need to check my story prep at the door.

Waffles Inc.
Jan 20, 2005

PerniciousKnid posted:

I need to check my story prep at the door.

Yeah absolutely agreed on this. I certainly have ideas but I think it's better if the players reveal their own thoughts on what would be cool, through the fiction.

In the second session, the players ended up killing the pirate captain and when one of the players went through the ship's cargo hold I asked him what he found, and he started describing how it wasn't as much money as he thought there would be and how, wow, maybe this pirate was totally full of poo poo about how scary and badass he was

Which is a cool direction to take it and allows me to build connections of my own because now I'm asking myself, "hmm why would he be short on money? is there someone he owes a debt to?"

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


That’s one of the things I’m concerned about - I’m not great at thinking quickly and I’m a very disorganized person, so I’m worried that relying on some basic stuff I write up ahead of time, even if it was really vague, would still confuse me. I’m worried about fumbling over my words, taking too long to think about the situation, not coming up with cool enough things, etc. I’m not a super creative person by nature either, and I’m not the quickest on the draw...I’m sure I could make it work, but I have no idea if I’m good at it yet.

Stuff like writing down the various actors, principles to follow, and stuff helps - I have a poor memory.

Waffles Inc.
Jan 20, 2005

I know it's super easy to say, but with anyone who's worth a drat (and thus, ideally anyone you'd be playing elfgames with) absolutely won't mind a, "ah hey y'all give me one sec while I think through this"--that applies to any game system

But DW is even better because if you feel like you're in a creative jam and can't come up with something, just ask the players

I had my players going through a dungeon and I only "knew" a few things: the type of enemy I wanted there; that there would be a chest there with a thing in it

I asked each of the players what they see, and now the dungeon room had giant columns, stalagmites, pathways and a door across the way. So with that in mind, I had the enemies flanking the door and the chest in the room that the doorway lead to.

If you think of D&D as a game where the DM is the creator of an amusement park and the players are all there to experience the rides (and by rides I mean "combat encounters") that the creator comes up with, then Dungeon World is a game where everyone is 6 years old again and just coming up with cool poo poo and the DM is there to egg everyone on

Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 17:56 on May 3, 2018

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Pollyanna posted:

That’s one of the things I’m concerned about - I’m not great at thinking quickly and I’m a very disorganized person, so I’m worried that relying on some basic stuff I write up ahead of time, even if it was really vague, would still confuse me. I’m worried about fumbling over my words, taking too long to think about the situation, not coming up with cool enough things, etc. I’m not a super creative person by nature either, and I’m not the quickest on the draw...I’m sure I could make it work, but I have no idea if I’m good at it yet.

Stuff like writing down the various actors, principles to follow, and stuff helps - I have a poor memory.

One nice thing about Dungeon World is that the moves often tell you exactly what to do next. It's up to you to come up with the details, of course, but usually moves tell you what happens when a roll is 10+, 7-9, or 6- and you can sort of just go with it. Similarly, I'd recommend keeping the list of GM moves handy--they're simultaneously the rules you're supposed to follow and a good reference for "oh poo poo, what do I do now?" moments.

Also, don't be too worried about having to stop and think for a moment. I've never had a GM who always comes up with flawless stuff off the cuff, and I sure as hell need to stop and figure out what happens next myself sometimes. Players will understand. Even better, you can ask them to pitch in. It's assumed in Dungeon World that players help to fill in the world along with the GM, so if you can't decide what's around the corner, just ask a player. Like, "You turn the corner and see something that makes your stomach drop. What did you see that's going to make this tough?" That kind of thing--leading questions that get to what kind of thing you want to happen, but let players fill in the details. I don't do that super often, but a couple times a session can be a lot of fun. It helps that Dungeon World doesn't use detailed monster stats or anything so all you really need to come up with when players encounter a monster you didn't plan on is "how much HP does it have," "how much damage does it do," and "what's dangerous about it."

Ilor
Feb 2, 2008

That's a crit.

Pollyanna posted:

That’s one of the things I’m concerned about - I’m not great at thinking quickly and I’m a very disorganized person, so I’m worried that relying on some basic stuff I write up ahead of time, even if it was really vague, would still confuse me.
The biggest thing about running pretty much any PbtA game is to make the consequences of the PCs actions' consequential. And the easiest way to do that is to look at the situation and just say what happens next. Examples:

* The PC is attempting to walk along a narrow, slippery ledge (e.g. roll+DEX to Defy Danger) and fails - what's the logical consequence? The PC falls and is hanging by their fingertips (GM move: put someone in a spot), and now someone else will need to roll+STR to Defy Danger to pull them back up. And if that guy fails? Well, I guess they both fall! (GM move: inflict Harm as established)
* The PC darts in to attack the body of the slimy-tentacled Otyugh and totally flubs the roll - what happens? You could just have the creature do damage, but where's the fun in that? It has slimy tentacles, so instead maybe it grabs the PC (GM move: capture someone) and starts dragging him towards its toothy, reeking maw. Yum!
* The PC is attempting to fast talk his way past a guard (roll+CHA to Defy Danger) and gets an 8. That's a partial success, but it comes with a worse outcome, a hard bargain, or an ugly choice, so what happens next? Maybe you as GM know that this guard is just a regular bloke trying to get by, so you hit the player with the hard bargain; "The guard's totally not buying your bullshit. But he does loosen the strings on his coin purse. After you drop in a few dinars, he pointedly looks the other way and lets you pass." (GM move: make them pay).

This is where the fiction is king. Try to keep your players focused not on the moves they're making, but rather on what it is that their character is doing. This is actually easier with new players. If what they're doing sounds like it triggers a move, call for a roll. Otherwise, if a roll isn't triggered, just let them accomplish their intended action. In either case, narrate a logical consequence of that action and move on. Once you get the hang of it, it's super-easy.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


This is some good advice. I’m starting to feel a little better about trying my hand at GMing, but I think I’ll read through the book again before I start getting ahead of myself...it sounds super cool tho!

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006

Pollyanna posted:

This is some good advice. I’m starting to feel a little better about trying my hand at GMing, but I think I’ll read through the book again before I start getting ahead of myself...it sounds super cool tho!

You can also read the DW guide; I found the written play example helpful when I started.

Overemotional Robot
Mar 16, 2008

Robotor just hasn't been the same since 9/11...
Ok, so I had an idea that I wanted to put out there for people who have some experience with the AW system and people who are just getting into it:

A training/practice camp of sorts. The way I imagine it is that some of the more experienced players would run a type of one-shot where new and veteran players could watch/play, but it would stop at certain points so we could pull back the curtains and explain what we were doing/why we made certain decisions in a round table discussion type of way.

We could trade off running and playing to show different styles and learn different techniques. Kind of a workshop for GMs and players.

Eh, it makes more sense in my head and is probably a dumb idea, but I thought I'd put it out there for interests sake.

Waffles Inc.
Jan 20, 2005

I do a lot of training and “train the trainer” model stuff for work and always thought that it could be a model for getting people comfortable with DMing. Lots of folks seem to think it’s an incredibly hard thing when really I think anyone who wants to can give it a half-decent go

“Pulling back the curtain” sounds like the perfect idea for something like that

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ilor
Feb 2, 2008

That's a crit.

Overemotional Robot posted:

Eh, it makes more sense in my head and is probably a dumb idea, but I thought I'd put it out there for interests sake.
No, it's actually a really good idea. "Make your move but never speak its name" is great advice for maintaining suspension of disbelief in a game, but having someon hit "pause" and explain what they're doing and why is usually very helpful. That's why when I'm giving advice on running games, I'll straight up say stuff like, "this is you, putting someone in a spot."

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply