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Namtab
Feb 22, 2010



Karen's power intensifies



leather fedora posted:

Considering how the EoSD crew is far and away the most popular group of characters in the fandom, it kind of matters a bit imo

Only if you care about the fandom.

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HMS Boromir
Jul 16, 2011

by Lowtax


None of it matters, of course, I only brought it up because it weirded me out when her name popped up in Turn A Gundam and I wanted to know if there was a story behind the whole thing. I find translation/localization fascinating.

MadRhetoric
Feb 18, 2011

I POSSESS QUESTIONABLE TASTE IN TOUHOU GAMES


a cartoon duck posted:

Oh and Yuuka shows up as a tiny background character with no lines again. Suck it, Yuuka fans.

Show us on the doll where the Yuuka fans touched you.

And Flan has sort of the same problem as Horo does in Spicy Wolf; personal pronunciation and transliteration and shaky handwriting/translation does strange things to stranger names.

Takoluka
Jun 26, 2009

Don't look at me!


MadRhetoric posted:

Show us on the doll where the Yuuka fans touched you.

And Flan has sort of the same problem as Horo does in Spicy Wolf; personal pronunciation and transliteration and shaky handwriting/translation does strange things to stranger names.
But in Korbo's case, her creator confirmed the L in her name and had her name written in cursive English in the anime.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

MadRhetoric posted:

Show us on the doll where the Yuuka fans touched you.

Don't mind him, he's just traumatized from PoFV.

a cartoon duck
Sep 5, 2011



BlitzBlast posted:

Don't mind him, he's just traumatized from PoFV.

Trigger warning that poo poo, man.

leather fedora
Jun 26, 2004

The closest acceptable translation is
"die properly"


Tortured By Flan

Namtab posted:

Only if you care about the fandom.
You're right, I don't care about you

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Leviathean
Oct 22, 2012

?


BlitzBlast posted:

This explains so, so much.

Have you ever considered going back and making a retranslation with the help of the now massive Touhou community? Or do you feel that it's all just set in stone at this point and there's no point trying to fix things up?

Well, I've long since given up any leadership roles I used to have back then -- I was just a guy who liked beautiful shooting games, after all. Thus I can't really speak for the current translation team's ideals. I would imagine that with any translation group though, their time and resources would be in constant demand for things that haven't been translated at all.

Honestly, I did want to improve our initial translations, which is partially why we set up the Touhou Wiki in the first place (back when Wikia was still decent). I made pages for the scripts, song titles, and cards, always with the Japanese and English text right next to each other, in the hopes that it would entice someone to actually notice errors in the text. However, I think not many improvements actually occurred before someone made that first PCB english patch.

I feel it was pretty lucky that I wasn't too lost in the anime scene at the time, otherwise there might have been a lot more "oujo-sama"s and "-san"s in that first revision.

Ranpire
Nov 5, 2012


Well, hi, I am part of the current (Gensokyo.org) translation team, from IN to the present, and happy to answer any questions people might have. Everything Leviathean said is still true to some extent, and we have no particular set localization goals beyond "get it done with a reasonable level of quality and in a way people following the series can understand." We do have people who actually know Japanese working on the translations and cleaning up the wiki stuff now, though. (Actually, they're the ones who put most of it on the wiki in the first place these days.)

Name romanization and translations of special terms are contentious issues, and we've never found any real right answers. When ZUN himself writes "KomeiJI and "ReiuZI," using two different romanization schemes for the same syllable, in the same game, just two stages apart... well, it seems like the best thing to do is simply not sweat the details that much.

We've considered retranslating EoSD and PCB a few times, but in the end it's never seemed worthwhile. They're playable, they're mostly understandable, and while there are certainly improvements that could be made, we're not terribly interested in stirring up oodles of translation drama for marginal accuracy gains. The fandom's toxic enough about that without our help.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

While this probably isn't the type of question you were expecting, how do you make the translation patches anyways? My attempts to mess around with the games' .dat files have always ended rather poorly, so I'm interested in hearing how it's done.

And if you can't answer that, at least tell me this: who came up with "Bitch, get out of the way!"? Because they are literally the best.

leather fedora
Jun 26, 2004

The closest acceptable translation is
"die properly"


Tortured By Flan

I have always been a strong proponent of Hepburn romanization (which gives KomeiJI and ReiuJI instead of ZI), even if ZUN doesn't always use it, simply because it lets people who are unfamiliar with Japanese at have a better chance at pronouncing it correctly.

BlitzBlast posted:

who came up with "Bitch, get out of the way!"? Because they are literally the worst.
Fixed that typo there, although it isn't as bad as that terrible misinterpretation of Remilia's "ふん" when you encounter Mystia.

Ranpire
Nov 5, 2012


BlitzBlast posted:

While this probably isn't the type of question you were expecting, how do you make the translation patches anyways? My attempts to mess around with the games' .dat files have always ended rather poorly, so I'm interested in hearing how it's done.

And if you can't answer that, at least tell me this: who came up with "Bitch, get out of the way!"? Because they are literally the best.

There've been three generations of patchmaking.

EoSD and PCB -
These were before my time, and the entire crew that made them seemed to disappear shortly afterward. Leviathean no doubt knows more, and I'd love to hear about them.

IN -
Jury-rigged tools and people who "sort of" knew coding. It was painful, comedic and took several months to iron out all the issues. IN itself is a huge disorganized mess under the hood, but the spit-and-duct-tape packing actually made it easier to deal with in the long run, once we figured out exactly what ZUN was doing. It's actually more like three separate games stapled together, since Spell Practice, Stage Practice and the main game all call completely different sets of files.

Dialog is written directly into the stage files, interspersed with all the scripting instructions for player invincibility and music and title displays and calling sets of enemies. This was about as fun as you'd expect. Probably the most interesting issue we had was that the script repacker was ever so slightly buggy, and inserted one extra comma at a place it shouldn't every time it was run. But the first comma in those locations didn't do anything, so we never noticed it until we got to doing final revisions, testing and repackaging and suddenly everything broke and no one could figure out why. Why do two commas in Eirin's dialog make the first large fairy in stage 6A spawn somewhere above the screen and spray bullets forever? Beats me.

We also had huge issues with fonts and line lengths. Text in Japanese is a lot more concise in character count than the same text in English, and because it's so concise, most Japanese game developers (ZUN among them) just use manual line breaks for text and don't bother programming any sort of word wrap, or even protection from text overflowing a box or graphic field it's supposed to appear in. This is a common problem with game translations, and easy enough to solve by brute force. Simply make sure all the English lines aren't too long! Not too painful with a monospaced font, and while we had to cut down some of the spellcard names, at least we could just add more text boxes to include all the dialog translations... right?

Ah, but there was a catch: replays. Replays are simple keypress recordings, and they include punching through all the ingame dialog. If we added any additional text boxes or input breaks, replays would desync and be incompatible between the Japanese and English versions of the game. The audience we were translating the games for, at that time, was in large part people who'd been playing the game in Japanese already, and had their own collections of replays with sentimental value, and enjoyed downloading and watching score runs from Japanese players. So breaking replays permanently was unacceptable, and THAT meant that every line of dialog in the game needed to be chopped down to about 50 characters, period, no exceptions, no new lines, only minor rearrangements possible.

This was my job (or one of them, anyway), and I wound up rewriting almost everything in the game, going off the wiki translations. I chose to try and preserve as much of the original lines and concepts as I could, at the expense of efforts to make things sound natural, or flow well, or even make sense so long as as much content as possible was jammed in there. So, yes, I'm responsible for "Bitch, get out of the way!" and Mystia's horrible rhymes and a bunch of other horrible lines that are embarrassing in retrospect.

If I had then the experience that I have now, or even if I'd known at the time that the series was going to keep going and get as big as it did, I would've done a lot of things differently. But at the time, MoF hadn't even been announced and the mindset was "get this niche but cool game out in English so we can tell what the characters are saying." So... it is what it is.


Games after IN -
The IN patch team itself was kind of jury-rigged, and fell apart quickly. But by that time, MoF was out, so I talked to some friends, we made a website and a replay archive and got in touch with more reliable people, and the current and much more stable team formed. In particular, we hooked up with the Mizuumi IaMP community and found mauve, who is some sort of minor deity of game related programming. The answer to "How did you..." in any sort of technical concern from that point forward is "mauve is awesome, all hail."

Main series games are pretty trivial now. They're all on the same basic engine, so our same tools continue to work with only minor modifications needed. The other doujin games we've done range from easyish (desuno's stuff) to "lots of work, but fun to figure out" (Hellsinker). The fighting games, on the other hand, were extremely hard to work with. IaMP got done because mauve loves it, SWR got done because it was huge and splashy and we were in the swing of things and felt obligated, and... well, we're not going to touch Hopeless Masquerade. Most of the team dislikes it, and even if we didn't, Tasofro's new encryption scheme is even more byzantine and nearly impossible to deal with, even for mauve-caliber skills. Good luck to anyone who tries.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Hmm... is it widely known that you aren't going to do HM? Because I'd imagine that a lot of people wouldn't bother touching it if they assume that the same group that does all the other games is going to do it. I can't say I follow the translation-patch community though.

Also, I've heard horror stories of vertical, manga-style text bubbles in HM. We're all doomed, seriously.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Ranpire posted:

So, yes, I'm responsible for "Bitch, get out of the way!"

I will buy you whatever forums upgrade you want. I am being entirely serious.

Thanks for the tale, that was really interesting. IN was the first game I tried to modify (I wanted to see if I could switch around team members), so I'm glad to see my utter failure wasn't just me being an idiot. Still, I thought IN was built off of PCB's engine (to the point the Cherry system is actually still there). I wonder if that translation was a similar nightmare?

Nages
Dec 31, 2011

Just yell at her like you always do. Bitch, get out of the way!


Ranpire posted:

So, yes, I'm responsible for "Bitch, get out of the way!" and Mystia's horrible rhymes

You are a good person, let no one tell you otherwise.

Freak Futanari
Apr 11, 2008


Ranpire posted:

So, yes, I'm responsible for "Bitch, get out of the way!" and Mystia's horrible rhymes and a bunch of other horrible lines that are embarrassing in retrospect.

You're the best dude ever, then. Thank you.

gnome7
Oct 21, 2010

Who's this Little
Spaghetti?? ??


Ranpire posted:

IaMP got done because mauve loves it, SWR got done because it was huge and splashy and we were in the swing of things and felt obligated, and... well, we're not going to touch Hopeless Masquerade. Most of the team dislikes it, and even if we didn't, Tasofro's new encryption scheme is even more byzantine and nearly impossible to deal with, even for mauve-caliber skills. Good luck to anyone who tries.

That is pretty sad news to hear. I really like the more recent touhou characters, and I was looking forward to a translated HM. Here's hoping someone else picks it up, then, but you guys are great.

Ranpire
Nov 5, 2012


Compliments - Wow, thanks!

Forum upgrade - Wow, thanks more! Uh, I don't know, some tasteful avatar I guess? (Oh god I only made this account for lurking and reading archives, ahhh)

IN mechanics - The graphics for the cherry system are still in the data files, yes. There's also a working spritesheet for Patchouli, straight out of EoSD, and a Phantasm unlock screen. I've no idea about the actual cherry mechanics, possibly they're still there, but we never had reason to dig into the gameplay system stuff.

ZUN's not so good about starting projects from scratch, no. Even the current games have plenty of old material languishing in the data. He did catch on to people cracking open the demo releases, though, and is careful not to include spoilers for the full games in them... most of the time. Interesting bits we've stumbled on include the Master Spark sound effects in MoF, and sprites for Murasa's droplet bullets and something that turned out to be part of her anchors in the UFO demo.

But that aside, yes, IN is a unique nightmare. EoSD and PCB, you just have two or three stories, spellcards and graphics to do. IN has 12 teams, multiple stage 4s and 6s, and spell practice with all its byzantine menus and unlocks. On top of that, after you clear both stage 6s with a team or character or something like that, I don't remember exactly, the game lets you play the "wrong" stage 4 for your character(s) in Stage Practice. ZUN decided the best way to implement this was to completely separate Stage Practice, duplicate all the stage and spellcard files, and make new stage files just for this. It's nuts.

Hopeless Masquerade - The community forming for this game (ie, the Mizuumi and Shrinemaiden people who'd be most interested in translating it) definitely knows that we're not doing it. mauve in particular has been very vocal about it on twitter. And IRC. And I think sometimes he just goes outside and screams to the heavens about there not being a good followup to IaMP.

Even if we were interested, though, it's already clear that it would be a massive and hellish project. Tasofro's coding is FAR less mod-friendly than ZUN's, even in the best of circumstances. Here's an example. You know how when someone declares a spellcard in IaMP, the spellcard name and timer show up in simple text under your lifebar?

Yeah - that's not actually text. That is the spellcard name prerendered and stored as an image file, then displayed with on-the-fly transparency effects in to-the-pixel explicitly defined space on the screen...

SWR was far worse than that. As best I understand, mauve wound up rewriting most or all of the code for the deckbuilding screen, plus some of the internal graphics engine, and then went to work on the game's main loop before things got too over my head to follow. And it STILL doesn't work quite right.

HM is even worse than that. The deckbuilding screen is back, with even more complexity, there are more finicky interface elements, and the entire game is coated in layers of heavy duty, better than 99% of commercial games, why would anyone even DO this encryption. And that's just the demo! Who knows what the full game and story mode are going to bring?

The encryption in particular is really absurd and totally unnecessary, to the point where we think it actually is targeted at us meddling fans. For anyone who does want to work on it, it would probably be easier and better advised to actually contact Tasofro and try to work with them than to try chopping into it independently. I'm contemplating doing that myself, but we'll see. Hopefully ZUN's visit to America can establish better guidelines going forward.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Ranpire posted:

Forum upgrade - Wow, thanks more! Uh, I don't know, some tasteful avatar I guess? (Oh god I only made this account for lurking and reading archives, ahhh)

Is there any way I can contact you to send a gift certificate code? (and if you just want to read, you should probably get platinum instead. Then you can search!)

quote:

I've no idea about the actual cherry mechanics, possibly they're still there, but we never had reason to dig into the gameplay system stuff.

According to some guy on shrinemaiden, they're there, just gutted. All of the triggers are present, and you can technically get a supernatural border, but it won't do anything.

quote:

translation woes

Seems a lot of the really good circles have been pumping up their encryption lately (the FMW2 translation, for instance, has stalled to a halt). At this rate, it'd be easier to learn japanese then make a translation patch.

ElMaligno
Dec 31, 2004

DUNSON'D


Ranpire posted:

So, yes, I'm responsible for "Bitch, get out of the way!" and Mystia's horrible rhymes and a bunch of other horrible lines that are embarrassing in retrospect.

Never in a million loving years in this absolutely loving stupid conversation about translation, localization and the proper pronunciation of some dumb girls name would I ever see something this loving awesome.

Zonekeeper
Oct 27, 2007



A little off topic from Translationchat, but I saw Iron Man 3 this weekend. (Incredibly minor IM3 spoiler) Early in the movie when Tony Stark autographs a little girl's drawing, he asks her name. She answers Erin, so he adds a speech bubble to the picture of Iron Man reading "Help Me, Erin!" right before he has his first panic attack in the movie. Probably a coincidence, but it tickled me.

Ranpire
Nov 5, 2012


BlitzBlast posted:

Is there any way I can contact you to send a gift certificate code? (and if you just want to read, you should probably get platinum instead. Then you can search!)

spinpire1 at Google electronic mail. And, uh, sure, whatever you like? Thanks!

ElMaligno posted:

Never in a million loving years in this absolutely loving stupid conversation about translation, localization and the proper pronunciation of some dumb girls name would I ever see something this loving awesome.

Thanks... I think?

As for learning Japanese, I think that's still harder than making translations, but the landscape's certainly shifted in the last few years.

Today, it seems like everyone and their dog on the internet knows some Japanese, and you can't shake a stick around something anime or game related without running into two or three folks wanting to translate it. Japanese is a staple in university language departments, there are tons of great online resources for self-teaching, you can get kanji flashcard apps on your phone, Google Translate is actually maybe sort of borderline useful sometimes, and most of Japan itself is on Twitter to talk to.

When we started working on IN in 2006, none of this was true. The language seemed impenetrable if you weren't a native speaker. People who did know it and were willing to work on internet projects were in high demand, and certainly none of them would deign to bother with some niche shooting games. All we had to go on was the mostly anonymous wiki, half-filled in by Leviathean's team a couple of years ago (but there were still huge blank swaths and obvious errors when we started), a dictionary, and one guy who was motivated and whose Japanese was reasonably competent, but was in the Army on tour in Iraq.

So if you really want to praise someone, thank a guy that goes by Espr, who spent his free hours translating IN's endings and script holes in a Fallujah barracks basement and uploading them when the satellite was up. World's changed a lot since then.

leather fedora
Jun 26, 2004

The closest acceptable translation is
"die properly"


Tortured By Flan

Ranpire posted:

The encryption in particular is really absurd and totally unnecessary, to the point where we think it actually is targeted at us meddling fans. For anyone who does want to work on it, it would probably be easier and better advised to actually contact Tasofro and try to work with them than to try chopping into it independently. I'm contemplating doing that myself, but we'll see. Hopefully ZUN's visit to America can establish better guidelines going forward.
Short of Tasofro selling this game online, this seems wholly unlikely. But yes, I do agree that ZUN's visit to the States could do a lot in bringing legit accessibility to the series outside of Japan.

ElMaligno posted:

this absolutely loving stupid conversation about translation, localization and the proper pronunciation
wow ok sorry for trying

TOO SCSI FOR MY CAT
Oct 12, 2008

this is what happens when you take UI design away from engineers and give it to a bunch of hipster art student "designers"


Zonekeeper posted:

A little off topic from Translationchat, but I saw Iron Man 3 this weekend. (Incredibly minor IM3 spoiler) Early in the movie when Tony Stark autographs a little girl's drawing, he asks her name. She answers Erin, so he adds a speech bubble to the picture of Iron Man reading "Help Me, Erin!" right before he has his first panic attack in the movie. Probably a coincidence, but it tickled me.
I can't believe that's a coincidence. Of all the names and phrases they could have picked? Nah, there's someone on the production team who put that in on purpose.

Artificer
Apr 8, 2010

You're going to try ponies and you're. Going. To. LOVE. ME!!

TOO SCSI FOR MY CAT posted:

I can't believe that's a coincidence. Of all the names and phrases they could have picked? Nah, there's someone on the production team who put that in on purpose.

I want to believe.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Ranpire posted:

spinpire1 at Google electronic mail. And, uh, sure, whatever you like? Thanks!

No problem.

Slight change of subject: Sanbondo's game demo has been confirmed to be FMW3!

Google Translate posted:

Is refined sugar. It is May already When you noticed. It is fun from now catalog of example festival also is beginning to sell, is to create a shopping list. Their is also acclaimed in shambles, but ... maybe you think that it has been promoted well in advance than when "Phantom"! Well, I mentioned the other day glance is "new trial", but the title " fantasy girl War Young " has become! ! ...... Those things are missed timing in Kamake to work I thought ...... you want to write before the sale of catalog title itself is a fastball because it came "Red" and "Sprite", but the content is the development midst. Their own, it is looking forward to what will be completed. Such as those fascinated with head family of "Imperishable Night", it sounds good when you're in the game that was full of dreams! I think that is when I become like those felt such power and enthusiasm to the "trial version". The Akatsuki you successfully master up, you're going to introduce for the content. It will also provide a WEB trial version in the future, but it is consulting with patch work for time. Anyway, I think first I try to return towards the debugging! (It is acclaimed test playing) is around here this time!

永 is the kanji GT's parsing as "young", and if the second bolded line didn't make it obvious enough it's the first kanji in IN's japanese name. I guess this one will be called FMW I? Whatever, this is happening already yessss.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

Guess they'll pop over to Makai, free Byakuren (and recruit Shinki please let us recruit Shinki) and then come back in time for everyone to notice the weird moon.

I hope they implement a Partner system similar to the recent handheld SRWs. It'll be a nice throwback to the partner system in IN too.

Takoluka
Jun 26, 2009

Don't look at me!


Ranpire posted:

Even if we were interested, though, it's already clear that it would be a massive and hellish project. Tasofro's coding is FAR less mod-friendly than ZUN's, even in the best of circumstances. Here's an example. You know how when someone declares a spellcard in IaMP, the spellcard name and timer show up in simple text under your lifebar?

Yeah - that's not actually text. That is the spellcard name prerendered and stored as an image file, then displayed with on-the-fly transparency effects in to-the-pixel explicitly defined space on the screen...

Having experienced this before in doujin game translation, I recall dealing with this probably one of the easiest parts of graphic editing. I don't know if Tasofro does something weird, but the text is generally in a uniform grid on a .png, alongside a solid color .png "template" with" cutouts" for the text images. Essentially, you find the size of the grid blocks, and then the fun begins. I say fun legitimately, because in my opinion, half the enjoyment of projects like this is deciding on font styles, as you aren't bound by half-width system sans serif fonts. You can decorate it and stylize it however you want! It can be a tedious undertaking if there are tons of images, but having seen IaMP's source sprite sheets, I dare say I would have actually enjoyed that part.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Pureauthor posted:

I hope they implement a Partner system similar to the recent handheld SRWs. It'll be a nice throwback to the partner system in IN too.

They'd be pretty silly not to, it's the perfect solution to the growing cast and a mechanic that's in both source games.

All I want is for Reimu to get Fantasy Heaven (as an attack and as a skill) and Marisa to finally get Master Spark as a map attack. Also, and this is never happening, make the final version of Malice Cannon a post-movement attack so Magic Team becomes even more ridiculous.

EDIT: Also, Ranpire, did that code get to you?

BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at May 6, 2013 around 03:37

Ranpire
Nov 5, 2012


BlitzBlast posted:

EDIT: Also, Ranpire, did that code get to you?

Yes it did, thank you again!

Takoluka posted:

text stuff

Nope, not a font-on-the-fly like that. The entire spellcard names are stored as separate, individual images. Like:

Divine Arts "Omnidirectional Demon Binding Circle"

That's an image. And then the game tries to draw it in a tiny little box, and scales it somehow, and if the image dimensions are too out of whack, it throws a fit, and when we tried to increase the display area, it threw another fit, and it took days to figure out exactly what they were doing to the images to make the transparency work, and then I believe the code was different for story mode and vs mode.

ZUN coding is like a Rube Goldberg machine held together by duct tape. It's messy and cluttered and some parts are useless, but you can tell at a glance it was built by an engineer (albeit a lazy one), and if you follow the mechanisms you'll eventually figure out why the duct tape is on those joints.

Tasofro coding is like a paranoid schizophrenic's science fair project. On the surface it looks like everything is fine, but the second you peel back the curtain, oh god are those monkey brains? How is it possible that this works? Why would you EVER do things that way?

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


If it's just an image of text with a fixed dimension, what's the problem? That's like 30 seconds in photoshop, at most. Heck, contact a scanslator because that's all they do ever. Although I guess the transparency might be a problem.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010

Q.E.D.



Ranpire posted:

So if you really want to praise someone, thank a guy that goes by Espr, who spent his free hours translating IN's endings and script holes in a Fallujah barracks basement and uploading them when the satellite was up. World's changed a lot since then.
Translating a game script while in the army? Now that's badass.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Clarste posted:

Although I guess the transparency might be a problem.

That and fitting in translated text. Divine Arts "Omnidirectional Demon Binding Circle" is a heck of a lot wider than 神技「八方鬼縛陣」 for instance.

Takoluka
Jun 26, 2009

Don't look at me!


BlitzBlast posted:

That and fitting in translated text. Divine Arts "Omnidirectional Demon Binding Circle" is a heck of a lot wider than 神技「八方鬼縛陣」 for instance.
Surely you can condense that to help, though? "Binding Circle" could become "Snare", for instance?

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


BlitzBlast posted:

That and fitting in translated text. Divine Arts "Omnidirectional Demon Binding Circle" is a heck of a lot wider than 神技「八方鬼縛陣」 for instance.

As I said, contact a scanslator because that's all they do ever. Trying to fit something into a tiny (vertical) word balloon can be tricky, but it's not insurmountable.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Takoluka posted:

Surely you can condense that to help, though? "Binding Circle" could become "Snare", for instance?

And piss off the translation purists?

Clarste posted:

As I said, contact a scanslator because that's all they do ever. Trying to fit something into a tiny (vertical) word balloon can be tricky, but it's not insurmountable.

The issue here is that you shouldn't have to do that. A game is not a page of a manga; if you tried to increase the size of a text bubble while scanlating it'd look ugly as hell and actually cover up some of the art. But in a game? If your picture can't fit in the established boundaries, all you should have to do is increase those boundaries. Let's look at DBC again.



Here it is in the japanese version. I'm too lazy to check the exact dimensions on those, so let's say the card name is 80x20 and the description is 200x50.



The translated version is much larger, as with most japanese-to-english translations. Going off my previous estimates, it's 150x20 and 200x100. Obviously you can't fit that in the original images without getting really creative (a la IN's translation) or making the text nearly illegible, so good thing you have the option of just changing the image size the program will find acceptable. And if you have access to the source code, that shouldn't be difficult! In a sane program, you just have to change the the value of one or two lines of code and you're set. But you can't do that with TasoFro's games, because TasoFro's coding is apparently insane and breaks down if you try and change any part of it, forcing you to comb through the rest of the program and change dozens of things. And then you have to do that again for transparency. And then you have to do that again for story mode.

BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at May 6, 2013 around 07:54

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


BlitzBlast posted:

The issue here is that you shouldn't have to do that. A game is not a page of a manga; if you tried to increase the size of a text bubble while scanlating it'd look ugly as hell and actually cover up some of the art. But in a game? If your picture can't fit in the established boundaries, all you should have to do is increase those boundaries.

"Shouldn't have to" seems kind of strong, doesn't it? While obviously in an ideal world Tasofro would have made their game easily mod-able with simple text strings and flexible windows (although I'm not a programmer so I don't know precisely what that would entail), they're certainly not under any kind of obligation to. We're essentially pirating their work. I know the standard stance is that we should be applying the patch only to a legal copy of the game, but... that doesn't actually make a translation any more legal. If anything we should be glad they're not suing us.

So, given that they've apparently created a labyrinthine monstrosity, the question becomes how much of a challenge it is for us to work with. And, well, editing image files with text on them as well as trying to be concise with translations is something a lot of people already a lot of experience with. You can hate "compromise" as much as you like, but if that's the only thing spurring you to do something you consider hellish then maybe you should rethink why you're working for free on a pirated version of a fangame.

And honestly, if even after doing all that work you still end up with obvious errors like turning "Laplace's Demon" into "Demon Eye of Laplace", which I'll note is both longer and more inaccurate, then the fact that you've invested more time into reprogramming the text engine to fit a proper translation instead of actually editing your translation strikes me as ironic.

Sorry if this sounds disrespectful to the people who actually did all this work, presumably for no pay and out of the goodness of their hearts, but I've never once thought that good intentions were meant to be converted directly into quality. Sometimes you just have to work with what you're given, and heck sometimes that makes the result even better (ie: "Bitch, get out of the way").

Clarste fucked around with this message at May 6, 2013 around 08:51

HGH
Dec 20, 2011


Speaking of that scanlation analogy:

Vertical speech balloons probably complicate whatever they had to do tenfold.

Actually, I'm curious now, how was the dialogue in 12.3 done considering the speech balloons there?

Ranpire
Nov 5, 2012


Actually, the move to speech balloons in the danmaku games made them an order of magnitude easier to work with.

ZUN, being a relatively sane and rational individual, made his speech balloons system dynamic, so everything can be easily and arbitrarily resized and moved. We can make the balloons as large as we want, and put them anywhere on the screen so they look nice and don't cover each other up. All it takes is changing a couple of numbers. No more worries about character counts or spacing limits, ever again! Even if he started using vertical balloons, it would be trivial to change them back to horizontal.

Tasogare Frontier, being in this regard more like a pack of gibbering monkeys, did NOT do any of this with their image or text coding, for anything, anywhere, in any game*. Try to "just change the numbers" on their stuff and it tends to break catastrophically. Blitzblast's image comparison is a good example - despite looking similar, the text in those images is being produced by completely different code, because Tasofro's rendering chucked fits and refused to display English fonts properly. We cut all the text down dramatically, but that didn't even matter that much in the end, too many other issues. (I wish I could describe them in more detail, but I wasn't really involved in the programming end for anything past IN. This is all secondhand from rants from the people who were.)


*exaggerated for comic effect. They probably did something right somewhere. Probably. Also sorry for driving the thread into this derail.

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Namtab
Feb 22, 2010



Karen's power intensifies



Ranpire posted:

*exaggerated for comic effect. They probably did something right somewhere. Probably. Also sorry for driving the thread into this derail.

Please bear in mind the last discussion in this thread was "what would touhou characters be called in English", and this "derail" seems like a breath of fresh air.

Plus this is legit interesting.

[/postingaboutposting]

Namtab fucked around with this message at May 6, 2013 around 13:53

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