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booksnake
May 4, 2009

we who are crowned with the crest of wisdom

I think I can safely say that World Trigger does not fall prey to any of these tropes except maybe cast bloat and even then the wealth of "minor characters" is part of its strength as a low-key worldbuilding/strategy heavy manga, also gently caress give me more World Trigger

It just had a chapter dedicated solely to a million non-protagonists talking to each other and I want more

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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





DoubleDonut posted:

people will debate "if the current arc is the best" in literally anything. I have no strong opinions on One Piece but popularity is absolutely not an indicator of quality

Yeah, looking around I've seen a lot more "Geeze, Wano is just going on." than "Wano, motherfuckers!"

I was really impressed when I read early One Piece, and I do mean to get back to it at some point, but it definitely seems to be suffering from a lot of the problems common to long running fight shonen, and it's more obvious because it's had so long to bloat up.

As people have pointed out, the entirety of Chainsaw Man's first part (Public Safety Arc) took place while Wano was running, and Wano still isn't wrapped up. That's kind of a rough go.

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



booksnake posted:

I think I can safely say that World Trigger does not fall prey to any of these tropes except maybe cast bloat and even then the wealth of "minor characters" is part of its strength as a low-key worldbuilding/strategy heavy manga, also gently caress give me more World Trigger

It just had a chapter dedicated solely to a million non-protagonists talking to each other and I want more

i love that the climax of that chapter is one team captain opening the test rules in a text editor and just blasting out parts he thinks his team won't need to worry about before forwarding it to them.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010





I would definitely say world trigger suffers from cast bloat because I can't remember half of these people

part of the problem was that big break and part of it is the new monthly format, but there sure are a lot of people that were relevant for 1 fight months ago that they expect me to remember. I'll never remember 90% of this cast's names

Reiche
Jan 28, 2009

I like my coffee with cream and lsd.


dogsicle posted:

i love that the climax of that chapter is one team captain opening the test rules in a text editor and just blasting out parts he thinks his team won't need to worry about before forwarding it to them.

Even better was the test proctors commenting on his strategy to have better control over his team. World Trigger is a lot of fun and I wish it came out more often but I prefer mangakas staying healthy

Brought To You By
Oct 31, 2012


Mikl posted:

2. Cast bloat, and as a consequence lots of character go out of focus for quite some time.
3. There are, like, a million plot points in the air, which barely get addressed.
Nico Robin is a tragedy of a character because she exists to exposition dump on a major plot point. But Oda hasn't figured out a way to have her drip feed anything she knows to the readers so she winds up just sitting in the background looking pretty. And in fights she rarely gets used because her ability lets her dunk on most conventional fighters and many unconventional ones as well. There's just no time to let her shine and she can't do anything until Oda gets around to a void century arc

Desperate Character
Apr 13, 2009


like seriously it looked like we were about to get a nico robin fight after one thousand years since the last one but nope got to cut away again and again and again to everything else less interesting

Mikl
Nov 8, 2009

Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!


chiasaur11 posted:

As people have pointed out, the entirety of Chainsaw Man's first part (Public Safety Arc) took place while Wano was running, and Wano still isn't wrapped up. That's kind of a rough go.

The Wano arc itself began in July 2018, which is nearly three years ago. Before that, we spent two whole years (April 2016 to April 2018) on Whole Cake Island, trying to defeat Big Mom, and before that we had more than two years against Doflamingo (Dressrosa, March 2013 - September 2015).

As it grows older, One Piece has been focusing more and more on extra-long arcs, rather than shorter arcs as it did in the beginning. And it shows. The fatigue is real.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


I've never been able to get into One Piece, I think I forced myself to read up to Brooke's arc like more than a decade ago, and just never got into it.

I didn't enjoy it, not gonna say it's bad or anything, but extremely not my cup of tea.

The Black Stones
May 7, 2007

I POSTED WHAT NOW!?


I got into One Peace last year after getting furloughed from work. I got to about chapter 860 before I burnt out on what was happening. Iím finished school for now and donít have a job yet again so maybe Iíll try and finally catch up.

Itís good, but I donít think Iíd ever call it great. Itís too long and bloated for it to truly stand out in my mind.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

booksnake posted:

I think I can safely say that World Trigger does not fall prey to any of these tropes except maybe cast bloat and even then the wealth of "minor characters" is part of its strength as a low-key worldbuilding/strategy heavy manga, also gently caress give me more World Trigger

It just had a chapter dedicated solely to a million non-protagonists talking to each other and I want more

Yet more evidence that World Trigger is a sports manga.

Haikyuu had a bunch of side characters too, but it was fine and didn't contribute to cast bloat because of the structure of the series.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010


My hot take is that One Piece is a real good comic book about dumb magic pirates going on adventures being led by a moron who wants to be the best pirate ever and should be enjoyed in that capacity. Also that itís a way better read when binged but at the same time idk why people try selling the stuff like world building like the world matters if youíre not on board with magic pirate adventures to some extent from the first couple episodes/volume.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


DoubleDonut posted:

people will debate "if the current arc is the best" in literally anything. I have no strong opinions on One Piece but popularity is absolutely not an indicator of quality

No they really won't. It's hard to find anyone that won't admit that, say, Bleach and Naruto went to poo poo. Some series absolutely just die. One Piece hasn't. It still has a massive fan base that is by and large happy with it. I personally am not as pumped about Wano as a lot of folks, but I recognize it's been broadly popular with people around the world. In any given year the tanks are like the top 4 best selling items. Even in years where something like Demon Slayer or AoT were going strong recently, it's still One Piece. It's never really left the heights of popularity at any given point. It's always had the most fans, or nearly the most. Any whatever else popped up in the meantime died out before it did.

I don't give a gently caress what anyone thinks about One Piece, that's personal and nobody can tell you you are right or wrong. It has absolutely earned everything said about it though. It's still a dumb fightman comic that's been running for like 25 years, so I can totally see that being impossible for some folks to get into. And there's nothing wrong with that. It is still one of the best dumb fightman comics in spite of that reality.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?



Oven Wrangler

I think one thing that people need to realize is that the worldbuilding is largely the point of modern One Piece. It's not really a fightman manga anymore, at least not nearly to the extent it used to be.

CodfishCartographer
Feb 23, 2010

Gadus Maprocephalus


Pillbug

Arist posted:

I think one thing that people need to realize is that the worldbuilding is largely the point of modern One Piece. It's not really a fightman manga anymore, at least not nearly to the extent it used to be.

Yeah, I will admit that One Piece running for decades can (and does) cause some problems, but it also has worldbuilding benefits. Namely, it allows for huge amounts of setup and payoff. It can be seen as a negative that some mysteries won't be solved for possibly 10+ years, but to the fans that's a feature instead of a bug.

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



Mulva posted:

It's hard to find anyone that won't admit that, say, Bleach and Naruto went to poo poo.

Bleach was always good and has only gotten better.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


I like Wano. It's been going on a long time, but there's been actual plot development, especially since the conflict with Kaidou is such a key point in the overall plot of the series (and the "act" structure encourages you to think of it as 3 or 5 arcs instead of 1). Punk Hazard and Dressrosa really dragged, though. I think the problem here results partly from cast bloat but partly from Oda's preferred plot structures, which rely heavily on 1) everyone getting split up/lost and running all over the place around the current island and 2) ticking-bomb plot devices. So you get all those cutaways to people running away from the gas in Punk Hazard and running away from the strings in Dressrosa.

Brought To You By
Oct 31, 2012


Arist posted:

I think one thing that people need to realize is that the worldbuilding is largely the point of modern One Piece. It's not really a fightman manga anymore, at least not nearly to the extent it used to be.
It's absolutely a fightman manga and the fact that this is the 3rd arc where a mass combat is happening across like 30+ chapters with no real is a testament to that. The overall structure to OP arcs hasn't changes much, it's just spread itself out over longer spans of chapter. We still get a taste for the culture and citizens of each given island before wrapping all that into a big battle where everyone gets their designated fight and Luffy fights the big bad. Once we got to the Grand Line Islands have always been about some culturally significant problem that can only be solved by hitting someone in the face hard enough to get them to stop.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?



Oven Wrangler

Right now is admittedly a bad example. We're just in a period where there's more fighting than normal because it's the end of an arc, but most of Wano was largely bereft of that stuff.

Fabricated
Apr 9, 2007

Living the Dream


One Piece is more for it's dedicated fans now than anyone new which makes sense because imagine trying to keep a 1000+ chapter series simple enough to instantly pick up

Brought To You By
Oct 31, 2012


Arist posted:

Right now is admittedly a bad example. We're just in a period where there's more fighting than normal because it's the end of an arc, but most of Wano was largely bereft of that stuff.
My point is that nothing in the overall composition of a typical One Piece arc has changed from Alabasta or Drum Kingdom. We get some spotty fights earlier on, we get to learn about the locals as the Straw Hats mingle and learn about who the source of the problem is. Then we get a mass of combat leading to the conclusion. Some arcs front load conflict more readily than others (pretty much all the arcs leading up to Marineford when Luffy was on his own) but they all do mostly the same same thing. Dressrosa in fact had two major slices of combat (3 depending on whether you split apart the fights in the Colosseum and Green Bit). WCI was pretty much fighting all throughout for Luffy. Wano itself was fights all throughout because of the different gifters and how wherever the Stawhats went Kaidou's forces would eventually show up to collect debts or because of suspicious reports.

I'm not saying this is itself a problem, but it's not like the story shifted to a different "genre" either.

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



chiasaur11 posted:

Yeah, looking around I've seen a lot more "Geeze, Wano is just going on." than "Wano, motherfuckers!"

I've found to an extent that how much you are enjoying the Wano arc depends on how heavily invested you are into the series as a whole. Casual readers who enjoy it on a chapter by chapter basis enjoy the setting, the cool moments, and the humor as it is. People who have been religiously following One Piece for over a decade, those that are overly analytical about power scaling and come up with theories about the world and want to get to the big payoffs and conclusions, are getting fatigued and burned out. They see Wano as a massive slog of a mountain to overcome before getting to the fireworks factory that is One Piece's endgame. In addition, they are getting burned out by the repeating arc structures, the lack of tension, the repeated contrivances Oda puts into his plot to make events happen in spite of the characters supposed competence, on top of there being less focus on the crew and potential character growth over time, the exponential power growth of Luffy in the plot, and cutting out what would be really cool and interesting fight scenes to speed through the mountain of content created by having dozens of dangling plot threads going on at the same time.

I still enjoy One Piece a lot, but it's far from a perfect story, and it's understandable why at this point the fatigue has reached all time highs.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Mikl posted:

Almost a quarter century at this point! Sooner or later, people will lose interest. Heck, I've been following it since the beginning and nowadays I just skim the most recent chapters, to get a general idea of what they're doing.
Same thing happened with me fairly early into Wano, I just zoned out and haven't really been paying attention other than when something obviously important with Kaido is happening and even that sometimes turns into nonsense that I forget about immediately afterwards.

What's funny is that the exact same thing happened with my reading habits with MHA and OPM, which either means it's a coincidence that those got just as boring as OP did for me at the same time or I just collectively lost most of my enthusiasm and interest for Shounen just kind of overnight somehow.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Nate RFB posted:

Same thing happened with me fairly early into Wano, I just zoned out and haven't really been paying attention other than when something obviously important with Kaido is happening and even that sometimes turns into nonsense that I forget about immediately afterwards.

What's funny is that the exact same thing happened with my reading habits with MHA and OPM, which either means it's a coincidence that those got just as boring as OP did for me at the same time or I just collectively lost most of my enthusiasm and interest for Shounen just kind of overnight somehow.

I burned out on MHA somewhat a while ago as well, despite still enjoying shonen manga in general. It's hard to say exactly why, but I think part of it is that it's introduced some serious themes that it's hard to imagine getting a satisfying resolution. Somehow I can accept fictional characters achieving an end to war (as in Naruto and various mecha anime), but fictional characters achieving an end to crime or other social problems is harder to envision. So it just leaves me feeling sort of gloomy, I guess.

DoubleDonut
Oct 22, 2010




Fallen Rib

Mulva posted:

No they really won't. It's hard to find anyone that won't admit that, say, Bleach and Naruto went to poo poo. Some series absolutely just die. One Piece hasn't. It still has a massive fan base that is by and large happy with it. I personally am not as pumped about Wano as a lot of folks, but I recognize it's been broadly popular with people around the world. In any given year the tanks are like the top 4 best selling items. Even in years where something like Demon Slayer or AoT were going strong recently, it's still One Piece. It's never really left the heights of popularity at any given point. It's always had the most fans, or nearly the most. Any whatever else popped up in the meantime died out before it did.

I don't give a gently caress what anyone thinks about One Piece, that's personal and nobody can tell you you are right or wrong. It has absolutely earned everything said about it though. It's still a dumb fightman comic that's been running for like 25 years, so I can totally see that being impossible for some folks to get into. And there's nothing wrong with that. It is still one of the best dumb fightman comics in spite of that reality.

you're either trolling or you are brain dead if you think there aren't diehard defenders of Bleach and Naruto to this date. Do you also think the Big Mac is the best cheeseburger that has ever been created

Don't fuckin come at me with "my opinion is objective fact but it's okay if you disagree " garbage

Jose
Jul 24, 2007





DoubleDonut posted:

you're either trolling or you are brain dead if you think there aren't diehard defenders of Bleach and Naruto to this date. Do you also think the Big Mac is the best cheeseburger that has ever been created

Don't fuckin come at me with "my opinion is objective fact but it's okay if you disagree " garbage

Phrenology was dismissed as quackery a century ago

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Jose posted:

Phrenology was dismissed as quackery a century ago

Wait, what? I'm not understanding the connection here. What does One Piece or Big Macs have to do with phrenology?

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


DoubleDonut posted:

you're either trolling or you are brain dead if you think there aren't diehard defenders of Bleach and Naruto to this date.

Go on, do it. Find me that die hard. That one that never thinks it fell off, that doesn't think the endings were weak as hell, that doesn't think it took massive poo poo in the end. I'll wait. And I'll have to, because they are a rare breed indeed.

quote:

Don't fuckin come at me with "my opinion is objective fact but it's okay if you disagree " garbage

I mean I get you ain't really on top of things, but that's not what I said. I said I'm not talking about liking or disliking One Piece. That's personal, that's opinion. That's up to you. It's success as a manga? That's not personal, that's not opinion.

DoubleDonut
Oct 22, 2010




Fallen Rib

Mulva posted:

I mean I get you ain't really on top of things, but that's not what I said. I said I'm not talking about liking or disliking One Piece. That's personal, that's opinion. That's up to you. It's success as a manga? That's not personal, that's not opinion.

Mulva posted:

No One Piece is actually that good. It's not flawless, but it's unarguably one of the best shounen series.....ever. And the fact a lot of people can seriously debate if the current arc is the best, nearly 25 years after the series started, speaks to a level that a handful of series of managed to reach. Again, ever.

Doesn't mean anyone has to like it of course. But it is that good, and if you think it's not you are flat out wrong.

please read your own posts before coming at me with some weak own

you can't repeatedly say it's objectively the best and then say you actually only meant it's the most successful

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


DoubleDonut posted:

please read your own posts before coming at me with some weak own

Someone said it's overrated. It's not, and can't be. It's one of the most popular manga's of all time, and has been for 25 years. You can't overrate that, it's right at the top of the heap of fightmans. You have like....maybe 5 or 10 manga in the history of the genre that you can talk about being as or more influential. And it's probably closer to 5.

quote:

you can't repeatedly say it's objectively the best and then say you actually only meant it's the most successful

I can say whatever I want, and you can try to fight this meaningless battle over nothing but I don't see it going anywhere.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


This is really loving dumb everyone.

Jose
Jul 24, 2007





Silver2195 posted:

Wait, what? I'm not understanding the connection here. What does One Piece or Big Macs have to do with phrenology?

i'm just quoting the simpsons but anyone who thinks later naruto or bleach are the best are probably also into phrenology

PringleCreamEgg
Jul 2, 2004


One Piece is fine. Eneis Lobby and Water 7 are the strongest arcs in modern shounen manga, but I think itís been much weaker post-timeskip. I agree with the sentiment that often times it seems like Luffy just wins Ďfor some reasoní. I completely get why people donít like it, though. The current arc has so many sub plots and simultaneous threads going on, every page is super busy so it can be pretty confusing and feel slow.

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



Dexo posted:

This is really loving dumb everyone.

Oh Snapple!
Dec 27, 2005

SNITCH


My week is consistently made better by One Piece being in it

Cloks
Jan 31, 2013

Guaranteed to be right twice a day.




Oh Snapple! posted:

My week is consistently made better by One Piece being in it

yeah, same

Brought To You By
Oct 31, 2012


PringleCreamEgg posted:

One Piece is fine. Eneis Lobby and Water 7 are the strongest arcs in modern shounen manga, but I think itís been much weaker post-timeskip. I agree with the sentiment that often times it seems like Luffy just wins Ďfor some reasoní. I completely get why people donít like it, though. The current arc has so many sub plots and simultaneous threads going on, every page is super busy so it can be pretty confusing and feel slow.

I hope that's just hyperbole. Those two arcs are among the best of One Piece for sure. But to claim it's the best of modern shonen is doing a real disservice to a lot of other writers.

rodney mullenkamp
Nov 5, 2010



Brought To You By posted:

I hope that's just hyperbole. Those two arcs are among the best of One Piece for sure. But to claim it's the best of modern shonen is doing a real disservice to a lot of other writers.

yeah wano is probably better

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

The best arc in modern shonen is the ball boy arc

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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





nrook posted:

The best arc in modern shonen is the ball boy arc

Chainsaw Man's tournament arc is the best.

I will accept no argument.

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