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kidcoelacanth
Sep 23, 2009



the best arc was when naruto kissed bleach..... so good

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Hypocrisy
Oct 4, 2006
Lord of Sarcasm



PringleCreamEgg posted:

One Piece is fine. Eneis Lobby and Water 7 are the strongest arcs in modern shounen manga, but I think it’s been much weaker post-timeskip. I agree with the sentiment that often times it seems like Luffy just wins ‘for some reason’. I completely get why people don’t like it, though. The current arc has so many sub plots and simultaneous threads going on, every page is super busy so it can be pretty confusing and feel slow.

Didn't this arc happen well over a decade ago? Is that still modern?

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


One Piece itself is the modern era of shounen. Anything before One Piece is pre-modern.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

all is one piece. one piece is all.

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



One Piece is the friends we made along the way. And those friends are Bleach.

ZepiaEltnamOberon
Oct 25, 2010


I love One Piece and JJK and Roboco and Black Clover and Elusive Samurai and MHA and Bleach.

I hate Bleach.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

booksnake posted:

I think I can safely say that World Trigger does not fall prey to any of these tropes except maybe cast bloat and even then the wealth of "minor characters" is part of its strength as a low-key worldbuilding/strategy heavy manga, also gently caress give me more World Trigger

It just had a chapter dedicated solely to a million non-protagonists talking to each other and I want more

The best lack health and vigor, while the worst /
come out with fixéd regularity

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


Captain Invictus posted:

all is one piece. one piece is all.
One for Piece and Piece for One.

Zerilan
Jan 11, 2008

I have to believe I can do this.





nrook posted:

The best arc in modern shonen is the ball boy arc

PringleCreamEgg
Jul 2, 2004


I loved Bleach but it was entirely for ‘look at this cool poo poo’ reasons about halfway through Hueco Mundo. After that the story went too slowly and characters had no growth, just backstories. It became objectively not great, but had strong enough moments on occasion that it was still worth reading. Also its trainwreck ending was much, much funnier and more interesting than Naruto’s.

Naruto I at one point stopped reading because it got too dumb when Sasuke intimidated Naruto’s fox demon with eye magic. But then I started reading again because of a bad translation of someone calling Sasuke ‘Dr Snakes’. Then it continued being boring.

Also One Piece is still running so I still think of Eneis Lobby and Water 7 as modern. Or I forgot how old it is. My goodness.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

I've been binging Tokyo revengers and while it is getting rather soap opera-ey in it's story and character convolutedness, I don't hate it. The necessary ramping up of problems means it's gotten a bit ridiculous by the end of volume 15, but so long as the series doesn't go on for another 20 volumes, I think it can go a few more arcs yet and end with a solid finish without the core premise getting exhausting.

edit: ehhhhh, yanno what, the series was doing pretty alright until they decided to(volume 17 big spoilers) fridge Emma. Having the pure, innocent friendly girl that was around occasionally but not really get much of any development beyond "cute, likes draken, is mikey's sister" get iced to motivate/demotivate the hero group just doesn't do it for me at all. been having a lot of "goku sparing frieza" vibes with kisaki through much of the series, when he's murdering everyone in worse and worse ways constantly no matter what takemichi does, you'd think takemichi would just loving kill him.

I'll keep reading it, but I'm not nearly as enthusiastic about it as before. It just feels like the author deciding well, I've had this in my back pocket in case I needed to amp up the stakes even more, so here we gooooo with this.

Captain Invictus fucked around with this message at 08:16 on May 3, 2021

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

holy poo poo lmao the author is just doing this on purpose now with volume 18

I don't think it's possible for a character to be a named woman over the age of 5 in this series and not end up murdered or die horrifically and conveniently somehow what a crock of poo poo lol. I think yuzuha is the only one who hasn't been killed. yet. just brutally beaten, repeatedly, for years, by an abusive older brother. though the reveal with her and hakkai was a pretty good twist.

it's kind of incredible how quickly I've turned on this series. it was real strong the first, say, dozen volumes or so, but it's been getting increasingly convoluted and now it's just asspulling tragedy after tragedy after flashback tragedy to try to make you care. and all it does is make me not. It's not making me go "oh, this is the last straw, he's definitely gotta kill kisaki for sure now" because that should've been the case the first dozen times he murdered or tried to murder people, repeatedly, and exulted in it so I'm just like "yeah, no poo poo idiot, where were you like ten volumes ago". and the author seems to to have been setting up for a while now something with Kisaki having something going on in the background too, maybe timejumping himself. but it just doesn't even matter anymore, the author's been jerking off this potential plot device for so long that it's gone flaccid, who cares?

since I'm already this far, I'll probably just catch up to whatever currently translated volume is out and then drop it until it's over, then maybe read a summary of how it turned out. bummer. takemichi just kinda never really physically improving or getting stronger and just sitting there letting people punch him has gotten pretty tiring too. like in rokudou's bad girls, rokudou realized he was incredibly weak and made efforts to get actually physically stronger, learn martial arts, etc in order to better be able to defend himself and others rather than have to be rescued all the time, but there's been maybe 2? times in the entire series of tokyo revengers where takemichi hasn't gotten punched a few times and then someone else steps in just in the nick of time to take over the fight once he's too battered to stand.

Irisize
Sep 30, 2014



dogsicle posted:

i love that the climax of that chapter is one team captain opening the test rules in a text editor and just blasting out parts he thinks his team won't need to worry about before forwarding it to them.

I'm really excited to see if the text editor play is going to turn out to be a genius move or blow up horribly.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Okay, I caught up(chapter 203), and this is me right now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_nPp64OrBc

Real solid epilogue going, a lengthy one too, could probably fill almost an entire volume! The last couple arcs, not great! But the epilogue stuff, pretty drat good, great character moments and banter, very cute interactions with the main cast, a fine way to end things, not a 100% happy ending, but good enough!

And then the series is like BUT WAIT, DON'T TOUCH THAT DIAL!

This is the curse of a successful serialization, I suppose.

Rohan Kishibe
Oct 29, 2011

Frankly, I don't like you
and I never have.


Silver2195 posted:

(Naruto has a lot of power-up modes, but there's usually some actual tactical reason for characters not using them immediately, such as conserving chakra, waiting for the optimal moment to launch a surprise attack, or the power-up permanently damaging the user's body. In Bleach and Dragon Ball everyone just holds back all the time out of arrogance, laziness, "honor," etc.)

I won't claim that he didn't totally drop the ball on this later, but this was one of my favourite things in Naruto early on. The characters are ninja and assassins and the world is full of people with the sharingan or ANBU who kill ninja and harvest their flesh to implant unique techniques into their own dudes. Whole clans have unique jutsus (let alone bloodline techniques) that are pretty much their entire claim to fame, so it makes perfect sense that people are super paranoid about using or showing off their best jutsu unless they have to.

It's kind of the thing where certain nen techniques or Jusustu kaisen curses get more powerful when (or require) the user explains to their opponent how they work. It always gives me a wry grin.

Darth TNT
Sep 20, 2013


I think the biggest thing for me about shounen is that so many start pretty happy and fun and then at some point everything seems to be the most serious thing ever. The levity is just gone. Bleach had some good fun moments at the start, but after the soul society ark there were few laughs to be had.
Naruto had some jokes but was imo the more serious one, but still goes from outcast fighting for recognition to the end of the loving world except ninja Jesus.
One piece (from my limited exposure) seems to have been hit by this hard as well.
Seven deadly sins went so hard at the end it became a joke. “No this time it’s really my real world ending form and you can’t stop me for realz this time!)


It’s also why I’m eyeing Witch Watch with suspicion. So far it’s been pretty standard and just a fun little adventure with the lamest magic ever. But It just feels like it’s going to go Bleach on us any minute now.

By contrast, in Claymore the world starts like crap, points out it’s really a tiny island they live on and the world basically still ends being poo poo. But the island is a little better I guess. It’s one of the things I appreciate about Claymore.

Space tale so far seems to be clinging to its non serious streak, much to my delight.

I have no idea how to describe twin star exorcists, but after the “awakening” it wouldn’t surprise me if the humor gone now as well. I mean after the current slaughter is done.



edit: Crossed out One piece. I don't know, I only read it up to lightning guy (that was Enel right?) and some of the recent chapters and found it to be occasionally funny but generally not which is why I roped it in.

Darth TNT fucked around with this message at 14:59 on May 4, 2021

Oh Snapple!
Dec 27, 2005

SNITCH


Darth TNT posted:


One piece (from my limited exposure) seems to have been hit by this hard as well.


One Piece is loving constantly doing goofy poo poo lol

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Silver2195 posted:

Since there's no weekly manga chapters to discuss at the moment, now is as good a time as any to post our general essays about shonen manga. Here goes:

Top 10 terrible tropes in modern shonen battle manga:
"He's good at gathering people around him"

I was actually upset when One Piece dropped this line recently. It's just pointless but every shounen these days seems to require someone to explicitly point this out.



Despite my many complaints about OP compared to what I consider its peak it's unreal how committed Oda has been to it for 20 years. Any normal human would have lost their mind by now.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 15:04 on May 3, 2021

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



No Wave posted:

"He's good at gathering people around him"

I was actually upset when One Piece dropped this line recently. It's just pointless but every shounen these days seems to require someone to explicitly point this out.

It's been a repeated, plot and character significant aspect to Luffy, ever since Mihawk noted it as Luffy's greatest strength during the Marineford War arc over a decade ago. It is also very likely functioning as foreshadowing for how the final arc will play out.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Darth TNT posted:

I have no idea how to describe twin star exorcists, but after the “awakening” it wouldn’t surprise me if the humor gone now as well. I mean after the current slaughter is done.

I think "the current slaughter" in Twin Star Exorcists is the second-to-last arc of the manga anyway. As it is, the introduction of the new Basaras is a something of a contrivance to keep the story going.

Twin Star Exorcists is also suffering from a bad case of cast bloat, incidentally. It's almost all guys I don't remember vs. guys who were just introduced now. Even the wiki isn't doing a great job of keeping track of everyone.

It doesn't help that the fights are somehow simultaneously too simple and too complex. Basically just energy blast vs. energy blast, but with a lot of obfuscating technobabble, as far as I can tell.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 18:43 on May 3, 2021

Pierson
Oct 31, 2004





College Slice

I think Ichigo is the most extremely example of 'no fun allowed' I can remember. I tried to re-read early Bleach a while back and it's amazing how he started out as a legit cool teen protagonist and then steadily morphed into somebody who didn't even seem to give a gently caress about people, he just went and swung a sword in whatever direction he was told. Even Naruto at his absolute stupidest dumbest powerful-est self still wanted to be pals with everyone.

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



A little of old Ichigo and the series' early humor appears here and there even in the final arc, but I think there will ultimately be some question on whether it was Kubo or editorial pressure that made things get more serious. Most likely both. It would've been good to see him get a bit more angry about people constantly hiding things from him, though. If nothing else, he'd have to actually question whether Aizen was ultimately right, aside from the killing everyone thing.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


chumbler posted:

A little of old Ichigo and the series' early humor appears here and there even in the final arc, but I think there will ultimately be some question on whether it was Kubo or editorial pressure that made things get more serious. Most likely both. It would've been good to see him get a bit more angry about people constantly hiding things from him, though. If nothing else, he'd have to actually question whether Aizen was ultimately right, aside from the killing everyone thing.

Didn't the follow-up LN basically reveal that, while Aizen wasn't right, Yhwach pretty much was?

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


probably, but his goals and motivations changed constantly so he was only right occasionally. i don't think he was supposed to be mercurial or anything; kubo just likes having villains go "oh you thought x? well guess what, y!".

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

probably, but his goals and motivations changed constantly so he was only right occasionally. i don't think he was supposed to be mercurial or anything; kubo just likes having villains go "oh you thought x? well guess what, y!".

Lol.

What I meant was that it turned out that the whole "returning everything in existence to primordial chaos" thing wasn't actually as bad as the monk guy from Squad Zero made it sound, and that Soul Society's endless slums and so forth were largely the monk guy's fault. Or something like that; I didn't actually read the LN.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


Silver2195 posted:

Lol.

What I meant was that it turned out that the whole "returning everything in existence to primordial chaos" thing wasn't actually as bad as the monk guy from Squad Zero made it sound, and that Soul Society's endless slums and so forth were largely the monk guy's fault. Or something like that; I didn't actually read the LN.

yeah, but the primordial chaos thing wasn't always his motivation. he changed it constantly in between killing all of his subordinates several times and knocking ichigo off a tower repeatedly. the dude had absolutely no consistency to the point that it seemed like there was something weird going on with him, but there actually wasn't. ywach just had no consistency for no particular reason.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

yeah, but the primordial chaos thing wasn't always his motivation. he changed it constantly in between killing all of his subordinates several times and knocking ichigo off a tower repeatedly. the dude had absolutely no consistency to the point that it seemed like there was something weird going on with him, but there actually wasn't. ywach just had no consistency for no particular reason.

Oh, I agree. His powers were even worse than his motivations in that regard.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!



Darth TNT posted:

Naruto had some jokes but was imo the more serious one, but still goes from outcast fighting for recognition to the end of the loving world except ninja Jesus.
One piece (from my limited exposure) seems to have been hit by this hard as well.

Naruto literally had a scene in the final battle where Naruto and Sasuke turned into hot naked guys and gave the evil alien goddess a nosebleed

One Piece literally had this scene not like six chapters ago were the three main fighters got into a game of chicken to see who would flinch from a fireball in the face first that looked like this

Electric Phantasm
Apr 7, 2011

YOSPOS



Blockhouse posted:

Naruto literally had a scene in the final battle where Naruto and Sasuke turned into hot naked guys and gave the evil alien goddess a nosebleed

One Piece literally had this scene not like six chapters ago were the three main fighters got into a game of chicken to see who would flinch from a fireball in the face first that looked like this



It was only Naruto that did that and it was like the only good part of the Kaguya fight.

Also Boruto just had this happen recently in the anime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjwJedRBZOE

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



Boruto (anime) has always been great for the balance having everyone be kids or parents brings to a shonen series (in addition to the freedom of some filler), though it does still have parts where it drags. they also did the DBSuper thing of adapting an existing movie in 95% worse quality though, which was a shame except for when they totally blew away the climax.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


Electric Phantasm posted:

It was only Naruto that did that and it was like the only good part of the Kaguya fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxMZYUD7P40

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



dogsicle posted:

Boruto (anime) has always been great for the balance having everyone be kids or parents brings to a shonen series (in addition to the freedom of some filler), though it does still have parts where it drags. they also did the DBSuper thing of adapting an existing movie in 95% worse quality though, which was a shame except for when they totally blew away the climax.

Really? From all I’ve heard the series adaptation of the Boruto movie was widely regarded as being BETTER than the movie itself (they added a bunch of stuff to it and Boruto himself comes off as less of a little poo poo).

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



Larryb posted:

Really? From all I’ve heard the series adaptation of the Boruto movie was widely regarded as being BETTER than the movie itself (they added a bunch of stuff to it and Boruto himself comes off as less of a little poo poo).

the good bits it gets to add are at least partially offset by them stretching the Chunin exam (namely the tournament) across multiple episodes when they really didn't have the production capacity to make it stand on the level of the movie. before the movie arc you already have almost 50 episodes of context on Boruto's character so he comes across better than when people only saw the movie and had no real grasp on him.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



True, but personally I’d say watching the series reimagining is still better than watching the actual movie itself (which wasn’t that great in my opinion).

Speaking of which, it’s kind of odd they haven’t said anything about another Boruto movie at this point (Naruto already had at least 2 or 3 by this point in the series)

Indiana_Krom
Jun 18, 2007
Net Slacker

Electric Phantasm posted:

It was only Naruto that did that and it was like the only good part of the Kaguya fight.

Also Boruto just had this happen recently in the anime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjwJedRBZOE

Dammit, quit making me want to watch Boruto. I made it through all 400+ episodes and most of the movies of Naruto + Shippuuden (+ manga), I thought that was good enough.

Maybe I'll watch it if people still say it is good by the time it ends.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


the boruto anime is the alternating low stakes ninja kid adventures and high stakes fancy ninja magic fights that the original series should have been in the first place. they even managed to salvage the not-so-good boruto movie and manga.

McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008


Electric Phantasm posted:

It was only Naruto that did that and it was like the only good part of the Kaguya fight.

The forums being down for that moment was terrible.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


I read the first few chapters of the Boruto manga and sort of forgot about it. I've been hearing some vaguely negative things about both the manga and the anime on other sites lately, and I don't really have much enthusiasm for seeing whether they're fair. My biggest issues are the manga's in media res opening (which basically implies that everything Naruto accomplished will turn out to be for nothing in the end, which I find pretty off-putting) and the uncomfortable sexualization of Sarada.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


Silver2195 posted:

I read the first few chapters of the Boruto manga and sort of forgot about it. I've been hearing some vaguely negative things about both the manga and the anime on other sites lately, and I don't really have much enthusiasm for seeing whether they're fair. My biggest issues are the manga's in media res opening (which basically implies that everything Naruto accomplished will turn out to be for nothing in the end, which I find pretty off-putting) and the uncomfortable sexualization of Sarada.

The anime is mostly fine, and doesn't sexualize her at all. And the Art isn't bad. The Manga's artist is so bad.

The Kawaki stuff in the Anime has been pretty well done. And the Manga has been getting slightly more interesting despite the bad art.

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Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Watch the anime instead, it sticks to Kishimoto’s artstyle and is a lot better at utilizing the characters properly.

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