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Friar John
Aug 3, 2007

Saint Francis be my speed! how oft to-night
Have my old feet stumbled at graves!

LateToTheParty posted:

Since we're talking about End of Evangelion I have always been fond of the theory that the movie was essentially Anno trolling the otaku fan base for being creepy entitled nerds who harassed him and the rest of the Gainax staff due to how the television show ended.
I have a problem with this, though -- Anno included lovely fanservice stuff even without creepy entitled nerds telling him they wanted more naked teenagers to jerk off to. I mean Jesus, look at Asuka's test suit in 2.0 (which you can't blame on the Gainax execs being inveterate shillers), which looks like it came straight out of a goddamn porn doujin. It just reeks of sheer hypocrisy for Anno to both include lovely fanservice stuff, and then say "fanservice is bad and you should feel bad for watching this." It's the same thing I don't like in Zetsubou Sensei, which has a bunch of context-less panty shots interspersed through the show, presumably to take the piss out of other shows that do the same thing, but at the end of the day the show is still engaging in dumb fanservice. So I don't think trying to flip it into some auteur "oh, Anno's being subversive and trolling folks!" actually works in his favor here.

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Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


So am I the only one that thought EoE isn't a troll and just Anno wanting Evangelion's true 25/26? I guess it's because I went straight from 24 to EoE, and I was a heck lot more forgivable on why Shinji was hosed up and apathetic considering he just crushed literally the only other person that loved him personally probably a few days ago.

Terminal Entropy
Dec 26, 2012



Mazed posted:

I am, however, slightly curious about the rebuild. I wonder, does it stick to the same tone, with all kinds of disconnected scenes of mysterious talking heads having deliberately vague dialogue about the backstory, or does the narrative actually explain this stuff upfront?

For the first two Rebuilds, it is about the same tone and story wise, although Rei is a less of a spreg. The design is phenomenal and the amount of blood each angel spews out gets exponentially more insane with each one. Haven't seen the third one yet.

Safety Biscuits
Oct 21, 2010



Regalingualius posted:

Ehhh... Honestly, it seemed to me like the main intent wasn't to make the audience sympathize with Shinji for the first two-thirds or so of EoE

True, but considering what's happened to him and what he's done, I can't hate the poor kid. I think he's more sympathetic on a re-watch, too, when you have the extra perspective on him.

Tae posted:

So am I the only one that thought EoE isn't a troll and just Anno wanting Evangelion's true 25/26? I guess it's because I went straight from 24 to EoE, and I was a heck lot more forgivable on why Shinji was hosed up and apathetic considering he just crushed literally the only other person that loved him personally probably a few days ago.

It is; there are storyboard-ish shots of EoE scenes in episode 25 and, I think, in the next episode previews. You can see them here: http://wiki.evageeks.org/EoTV_vs_EoE#Reality_Scenes Even if much of EoE was planned, there are still some responses to fans' responses to the series, such as the "hate mail" (which apparently mostly wasn't: http://wiki.evageeks.org/End_of_Evangelion_Death_Threats if you really must) and some changes of emphasis between the two, for instance EoE's emphasis on Shinji's pivotal role in deciding whether or not to end Instrumentality.

It's a real shame there's nothing covering the gap between episode 24 and the films; it would really help explain him and it's ripe with drama.

Soho Joe
Aug 11, 2006

hey corgeous


Nap Ghost

I think we're too worried about nudity that might have been intended for nerds to get boners over when there's plenty of nudity to talk about that could only have been less erotic if Freud was one corner of the screen grimacing while circus music played.

Let us pay tribute to whatever in the gently caress you want to call that thing shambling around the second half of EoE, which I refuse to refer to as "GNR" because that just makes me think Instrumentality involves all of humanity listening to Slash deliver a really wicked solo which Axl Rose rejects, being a whiny girlish child himself.

I also think it bears mentioning that Kaworu is literally a ten thousand year old demon in an underage body. I mean, look, we both know the old joke here, but you gotta gimme this one.

getitoffgetitoff
Sep 24, 2007

by Ralp


I think it's indisputable that EoE was originally supposed to be episodes 25 and 26, but I doubt some parts of it were planned all along. The hospital scene in particular feels to me like something Anno put in just because he was disgusted with everybody and wanted to make Shinji less likable. And I doubt they'd let him show cum on TV like that

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS



Gary’s Answer

Arujei posted:

I have a problem with this, though -- Anno included lovely fanservice stuff even without creepy entitled nerds telling him they wanted more naked teenagers to jerk off to. I mean Jesus, look at Asuka's test suit in 2.0 (which you can't blame on the Gainax execs being inveterate shillers), which looks like it came straight out of a goddamn porn doujin. It just reeks of sheer hypocrisy for Anno to both include lovely fanservice stuff, and then say "fanservice is bad and you should feel bad for watching this." It's the same thing I don't like in Zetsubou Sensei, which has a bunch of context-less panty shots interspersed through the show, presumably to take the piss out of other shows that do the same thing, but at the end of the day the show is still engaging in dumb fanservice. So I don't think trying to flip it into some auteur "oh, Anno's being subversive and trolling folks!" actually works in his favor here.

I dunno, quite a few real artists have done the same thing. Depicting a subject that titillates the viewer while also making them feel exploitative for their titillation is a fun way to make human beings reflect on the voyeuristic and perverted part of their nature. In anime fanboys, that's literally the entirety of their nature so it double fits in Eva.

ShardPhoenix
Jun 15, 2001

Pickle: Inspected.


Here's an interesting collection of translated interviews and so forth regarding Eva. Helps explain what's going on with the original ending vs. EoE, to what extent it was intended as a criticism of the audience, etc.

furiouskoala
Aug 4, 2007


After marathoning through the original series with a friend and watching the EoE, I finally decided to tackle Rebuild. Amazing stuff; I have seen 1.11 and 2.22, and started getting suspicious. I have been avoiding spoilers for 3, so keeping in mind only the first two movies what do you think of my suspicion that
The Rebuild is not a remake, but a sequel? Kaworu's line at the end of 1.11 "The third again?" made me suspicious, as well as the fact that the ocean is red like in EoE and how in the second movie, in Misato's second impact flashback it appears that she is surrounded by what to my eyes appeared to be a group of Rei as she appeared in EOE (Ghost white skin, very red eyes). Am I being silly or is this a legitimate theory as to what is going on? Maybe after EoE the World returned to how it was in such a way that nobody remembers what happened and are repeating (to an extent) their previous actions.

ActionZero
Jan 22, 2011

I act once more in
imitation of light


furiouskoala posted:

Am I being silly or is this a legitimate theory as to what is going on?

That's a fairly popular theory about Rebuild.

Regalingualius
Jan 6, 2012


Mmm. Plus, there are the subtler hints that something different is going on this time around (granted, I've no idea of anything that's happened in 3.33 yet...)

Case in point: In the original series, Misato had no idea NERV was hiding Lilith at Terminal Dogma for roughly half of the show's run, and presumably thought it was Adam up until EoE (if she ever learned the truth). In 1.11, she already knew about Lilith by the time the battle with Ramiel swung around, with no explanation of how she knows, unless 3.33 explained it.

Safety Biscuits
Oct 21, 2010



I really don't understand how that theory makes any sense at all, considering how the hell you'd have to get from the ending of EoE to the beginning of Rebuild without time travel or something. Then again, I've never been that interested in Rebuild.

ShardPhoenix posted:

Here's an interesting collection of translated interviews and so forth regarding Eva. Helps explain what's going on with the original ending vs. EoE, to what extent it was intended as a criticism of the audience, etc.

Jesus some of this stuff. "What was the difference between the Gurren Lagann TV and films?" "In the films, Yoko has bigger tits." This must be a fantastic resource for people who can be bothered to navigate it; looks like everything in English he could find that even mentioned Eva. I'll add it to the OP. Thanks.

Falls Down Stairs
Nov 2, 2008

IT KEEPS HAPPENING


House Louse posted:

I really don't understand how that theory makes any sense at all, considering how the hell you'd have to get from the ending of EoE to the beginning of Rebuild without time travel or something. Then again, I've never been that interested in Rebuild.

The movies definitely seem to be hinting towards it, and a bit of what I've been spoiled on for 3.0 does make it a little more plausible sounding.

I think the big things that that made people really pick up on the theory and run with it after the red seas and Kaworu apparently already knowing Shinji were these: There's blood-splatter on the moon in the Rebuild series, which we also saw happen in EoE. Then there's the giant chalk shapes, which are the shape of the mass-produced Evas in their crucifix poses. There's certainly more to the theory than that beyond what I currently remember, though.

Falls Down Stairs fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Apr 18, 2013

TenementFunster
Feb 20, 2003

delinquent


has anyone link Zoomzip's excellent and classic ¡¡POR FAVOR NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! yet?

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


House Louse posted:

I really don't understand how that theory makes any sense at all, considering how the hell you'd have to get from the ending of EoE to the beginning of Rebuild without time travel or something.
The "or something" is probably just cyclical history. But really, in a series like Evangelion discounting an explanation just because you're not sure what the exact mechanism would be isn't the most useful technique; if someone described 3rd Impact to you, responding that you can't believe that because you don't see how it could work (which is certainly true!) misses the point.

Terminal Entropy
Dec 26, 2012



It also ignores that Rei's time travel appearance in front of Shinji at the start of Rebuild and even the series.

Falls Down Stairs
Nov 2, 2008

IT KEEPS HAPPENING


TenementFunster posted:

has anyone link Zoomzip's excellent and classic ¡¡POR FAVOR NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3MFkIakwWI

por favor noooooooo

theodrin
Oct 13, 2006

SUUUPERRR!!!~


don't forget about this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w18Sfg4wdmA

ShardPhoenix
Jun 15, 2001

Pickle: Inspected.


House Louse posted:

I'll add it to the OP. Thanks.
You updated the OP but forgot to actually add the link.

Safety Biscuits
Oct 21, 2010



Really? I don't know what you're talking about.

quote:

Rebuild as a sequel

So it's more of a general feeling, then? Fair enough. No, it's not impossible, but it seems to miss the entire point of Rebuild. Anno's said that he wants it to be more accessible for people who haven't seen the original - how will it do that if it's a sequel? And why would you spend one of the four films doing almost exactly the same thing as the TV series? Why wouldn't you tell anyone? It really seems like a huge dick move, really dwarfing the other stuff he's done to upset people. Some of that evidence has simpler answers anyway; maybe Kaworu met Shinji when he was still a baby.

Sorry for not replying earlier, I thought I dodn't have anything to say before I started typing.

Terminal Entropy
Dec 26, 2012



House Louse posted:

Really? I don't know what you're talking about.


So it's more of a general feeling, then? Fair enough. No, it's not impossible, but it seems to miss the entire point of Rebuild. Anno's said that he wants it to be more accessible for people who haven't seen the original - how will it do that if it's a sequel? And why would you spend one of the four films doing almost exactly the same thing as the TV series? Why wouldn't you tell anyone? It really seems like a huge dick move, really dwarfing the other stuff he's done to upset people. Some of that evidence has simpler answers anyway; maybe Kaworu met Shinji when he was still a baby.

Sorry for not replying earlier, I thought I dodn't have anything to say before I started typing.

End of Eva alienates just about everyone, so doing that with Rebuild wouldn't be too far out of the question.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


House Louse posted:

Anno's said that he wants it to be more accessible for people who haven't seen the original - how will it do that if it's a sequel?
The two aren't mutually exclusive; the film can work on multiple levels at the same time for different target audiences.

Regarding alternate explanations, though, some things just line up too well (especially the line of blood on the moon, which we saw happen in EoE and doesn't seem like something that happens terribly often)to not at least consider the idea, given that it walks/talks/quacks like a duck.

Terminal Entropy
Dec 26, 2012



Paracelsus posted:

The two aren't mutually exclusive; the film can work on multiple levels at the same time for different target audiences.

Regarding alternate explanations, though, some things just line up too well (especially the line of blood on the moon, which we saw happen in EoE and doesn't seem like something that happens terribly often)to not at least consider the idea, given that it walks/talks/quacks like a duck.

And the outline of an Angel even though none would have shown up to fight yet as all the top brass are trying to use tanks and bombers, rather than send out an Eva, on Sachiel.

Dr_Amazing
Apr 15, 2006

It's a long story

I watched the show and one of the movies. I didn't get it at all. Is there a good source that explains what was going on at the end?

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



Dr_Amazing posted:

I watched the show and one of the movies. I didn't get it at all. Is there a good source that explains what was going on at the end?

Which movie did you watch? If it wasn't 'End of Evangelion' you need to see that at least.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Dr_Amazing posted:

Is there a good source that explains what was going on at the end?
Authoritatively? No.

Dred Cosmonaut
Jan 5, 2010

There once was a tiger-striped cat.


Dr_Amazing posted:

I watched the show and one of the movies. I didn't get it at all. Is there a good source that explains what was going on at the end?

Don't worry about it, no one knows.

Dr_Amazing
Apr 15, 2006

It's a long story

I watched whichever movie starts with the main guy jerking off on a girl in a coma.

see you tomorrow
Jun 27, 2009



Dr_Amazing posted:

I watched whichever movie starts with the main guy jerking off on a girl in a coma.

Alright you're good.

e: maybe give Rebuild a go.

see you tomorrow fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Apr 20, 2013

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



Dr_Amazing posted:

I watched whichever movie starts with the main guy jerking off on a girl in a coma.

You're one of us now.

Triggerhappypilot
Nov 8, 2009

SVMS-01 UNION FLAG GREATEST MOBILE SUIT

ENACT = CHEAP EUROTRASH COPY






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWcaP_tEPLk



The world is actually ending.

Terminal Entropy
Dec 26, 2012



Dr_Amazing posted:

I watched the show and one of the movies. I didn't get it at all. Is there a good source that explains what was going on at the end?

Yeah, the last half of End of Eva is basically the anime version of the Stargate Sequence from 2001.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Terminal Entropy posted:

Yeah, the last half of End of Eva is basically the anime version of the Stargate Sequence from 2001.

Except there's no book with a version that actually makes sense.

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



Kavak posted:

Except there's no book with a version that actually makes sense.

Maybe when the manga finishes in another five years or so....

getitoffgetitoff
Sep 24, 2007

by Ralp


Sakurazuka posted:

Maybe when the manga finishes in another five years or so....

Isn't the manga actually supposed to finish by the end of the year?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Dr_Amazing posted:

I watched the show and one of the movies. I didn't get it at all. Is there a good source that explains what was going on at the end?

Shinji has the choice between accumulating all of mankind into a godlike hive-mind with no individuality (but also no suffering or fear), or going back. He almost commits to the former but realizes at the last moment that it's wrong and backs down. He goes back to being human, and therefore angry, terrified, hosed up, etc.

I could go into more detail if you wanted but everything beyond what I just said is conjecture and loose interpretation. In fact, you could probably find people who don't even agree with that much.

Paper Lion
Dec 13, 2009






I always thought that everyone was congratulating him for joining the LCL when I was a kid. Then again, when I first saw this it was all in Japanese on VHS tapes shipped over here. I was 7 and no one knew any better.

My friend was Japanese and his family had moved here from Japan, and his dad would get stuff shipped over from relatives, including tapes of shows. I would watch with them because GIANT ROBOT GLOWING HAND GRAB THAT OTHER ROBOT CRUSH HIM SHINING FINGER YESSSSS and my friends dad would just sort of summarize what was going on. We had no idea going in what NGE would be. Honestly, memories of the episode going through it are really fuzzy to me. I remember the iconic dancing sequence and a couple other things, but other than that, the memory of watching NGE as a small child is vague, and only filled with frustration.

I'll never forget the day we finished that show. I was angry and confused. Why wouldn't he just kill stuff? Why wasn't he driving the robot? I would have drove it. My friend would have drove it. His dad just kept saying "I know. He's making bad choices." Then the ending happened and all the people that were gone showed up and started clapping and saying the same noises over and over again and it was just making me angry but I didn't understand it. Then scribbles happened and it just stopped. No credits on the recording, just static. I looked over at my friend, and his mouth was sort of open and his eyes seemed dead. I looked up at his dad and asked what happened.

I'll never for the rest of my life forget the cold, empty look on his face as he looked down at me and said, in the softest voice I ever heard from him "And to all the children, congratulations."

If it wasn't for my friend literally getting on his knees and pleading me to come over and try out this awesome new show that wasn't an idiot wasting his robot i swear bro please come over I'd have quit anime forever. Luckily (or unluckily) that show my friend wanted me to see was GaoGaiGar, and I was saved/lost, however you want to look at anime fandom

Mazed
Oct 23, 2010



Jesus christ. Experiencing Evangelion as a seven-year-old?

The fact that the dialogue was all a mystery was probably a blessing. If you were raised Christian I'm sure the frequent crucifix imagery would raise a number of questions, though.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.


My first experience with Eva was my dad sitting me down and telling me about this awesome show with giant robots fighting each other. I think I was around seven or eight at the time as well.

The first thing I saw in the first episode Eva I ever sat down to watch? Shinji yelling that he had no choice but to kill someone and then words on a black background asking him why he did it. I didn't know what the gently caress.

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The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

LateToTheParty posted:

Since we're talking about End of Evangelion I have always been fond of the theory that the movie was essentially Anno trolling the otaku fan base for being creepy entitled nerds who harassed him and the rest of the Gainax staff due to how the television show ended.
Theory? That isn't even subtext, it's text.





Arujei posted:

I have a problem with this, though -- Anno included lovely fanservice stuff even without creepy entitled nerds telling him they wanted more naked teenagers to jerk off to. I mean Jesus, look at Asuka's test suit in 2.0 (which you can't blame on the Gainax execs being inveterate shillers), which looks like it came straight out of a goddamn porn doujin. It just reeks of sheer hypocrisy for Anno to both include lovely fanservice stuff, and then say "fanservice is bad and you should feel bad for watching this."
That he wants to have his cake and eat it too doesn't make it less likely or less explanatory though. See also Zack Snyder and Sucker Punch.

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