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I also don't think people even agree on how the characters act in the movie, and any attempts to summarize the story are colored by such feelings about the characters. Like does Misato hate Shinji or not in 3.33? I've seen people go back on forth for ages on that point alone.
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Aug 20, 2020 12:42
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It's almost as if that was a chief criticism of 1.0 when it came out. I find more palatable in that 6 episodes is just about the limit of what you could shove into a movie without cutting too many corners, and the source material for that intro film was already pretty strong.
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Aug 20, 2020 12:45
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I’ve been an Eva geek since driving two hours to rent the original series on VHS from the only location in my State that carried them, and I’ll go to my grave proclaiming the 3.33 is the best of the bunch. That is until 4.44 launches and further destroys the cannon in ways which please me to no end. IMO he’s like a George Lucas that actually improves stuff by making GBS threads all over the originals.
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Aug 20, 2020 12:50
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Fly Ricky posted:IMO he’s like a George Lucas that actually improves stuff by making GBS threads all over the originals.
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Aug 20, 2020 12:56
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Nate RFB posted:It's almost as if that was a chief criticism of 1.0 when it came out. Right, okay, so that's a flaw shared by all of them then. Maybe three films do not tell their story in the same way as however-many episodes of an animated series would. Maybe this is reflected in how the characters have different names and personalities. Raxivace posted:I also don't think people even agree on how the characters act in the movie, and any attempts to summarize the story are colored by such feelings about the characters. The common confusion on Misato arises from people not paying attention to the ending of 2.22. They remember Misato egging Shinji on and telling him to take names and kick butt because it's what he wants*. They then forget that, after Ritsuko explains what's actually happening, Misato becomes horrified and grasps her cross like it's some protective talisman. People tend to say things like 'If Misato was cheering him on at the end of 2.22, why does she treat him so badly during 3.33?' Well, she did, and then changed her mind. So, it's actually really easy to understand Misato's feelings about Shinji. A lot of her antipathy towards him arises from her realization that she was cheering on the end of the world. Hell, she starts cheering it on after Ritsuko shouts at Shinji to stop. Whatever blame she and the others want to assign to Shinji for that event, she realizes she must share. And even when Fourth Impact is happening in 3.33, she refuses to trigger the choker-bomb. It only triggers as a last-ditch automated safety. So, I don't see how anyone could argue that Misato 'hates' Shinji. Even when Nerv abducts Shinji initially, she doesn't pop his head like a tomato can. It's not as if Misato doesn't often have conflicted feelings about men. Just look at her father and Kaji. * - It's really important to note that Misato has no idea of the true power of an Evangelion and I don't think she has any idea what an Impact consists of beyond it being something she has to prevent. edit: When people claim that Misato's motivations are inscrutable, what they actually mean is, like, why didn't she explain things to Shinji? They tend to ignore that, one, she's busy preparing the Wunder for launch, and, two, that the Wunder is then attacked by the set of Nemesis units, and then assaulted by the Mark 9. It's not even clear whether they wanted Shinji reconstituted or it was just something they had to do in order to ensure Unit 01 will function in the Wunder's core without issue. In fact, when Shinji wakes up in 3.33, no one is sure whether it's actually him! It's a complex situation! Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 13:20
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:The common confusion on Misato arises from people not paying attention to the ending of 2.22. They remember Misato egging Shinji on and telling him to take names and kick butt because it's what he wants*. They then forget that, after Ritsuko explains what's actually happening, Misato becomes horrified and grasps her cross like it's some protective talisman. People tend to say things like 'If Misato was cheering him on at the end of 2.22, why does she treat him so badly during 3.33?' Well, she did, and then changed her mind. Like the actual Wikipedia summary of 3.0 doesn't even mention that scene where she refuses to trigger the bomb. For better or worse (Its for the worse), these kinds of things color how people feel about the films.
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Aug 20, 2020 13:31
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Is Rebuild 1 an acceptable stand-in for the first few episodes if you’re showing the original series to someone who’s never seen it before, and if so, how many of the first episodes does it cover/replace?
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Aug 20, 2020 13:39
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It's the first 6 episodes but IMO the first 6 episodes of the original series are really good and shouldn't be skipped. e: also some stuff in the Rebuild world is intentionally different
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Aug 20, 2020 13:48
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I mean at the end of the day I'd have to ask what the endgame would be. If it's time, you're only saving like 20 minutes, and if it's animation then they're going to be in for a rude awakening when they watch the rest of the series, and if there is no possibility or interest in watching the series at all then this entire conversation is largely pointless.
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Aug 20, 2020 13:59
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https://twitter.com/KaelanRamos/status/1296424270638338048
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Aug 20, 2020 14:06
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Nate RFB posted:This is such a bizarre take. Yes I'm sure Hideaki Anno despises the TV series that put him on the map, giving him enough clout to eventually form his own studio and direct a loving Godzilla film. Truly the only reason he's come back to Evangelion is some LET ME CORRECT THE RECORD antagonism. There's this thing I've seen in Evangelion fandom since the beginning where people are doing this weird projection thing onto Anno's motivations that actually he hates Evangelion and everyone who likes it and despises otaku and is some kind of Tomino-esque grouchy old bastard and just None of that's actually been shown anywhere, and there's been a lot of interviews that contradict it, but people want to believe it. I don't know why. Even 3.33's sharp swerve has nothing to do with "gently caress them fans" and everything to do with the creative block Anno was experiencing after the second movie.
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Aug 20, 2020 14:15
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A lot of people have a different take on Eva than Anno did, and interpret that take constantly being contradicted as him 'hating his fans' rather than their take just being wrong.
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Aug 20, 2020 14:17
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Raxivace posted:I agree with your take on Misato here 100%. However half the summaries of 3.0 I've seen are still written by people that didn't understand the 2.22 ending or Misato's character in these movies at all, and talk about her being a dumb hypocrite or whatever, or they just leave out aspects of her character entirely. It's one of the tensions in the Rebuilds. I think, for the most part, people expected a streamlined, 'happy' take on the story (which 1.11 certainly provided.) Sure, 2.22 has Shinji kick off Third Impact, but this will be a good thing - it will draw attention and SEELE won't be able to act as they did, and there's a time loop and Kaworu knows about it, etc. Thing is, though, that the Rebuilds have - from the very first film - established themselves as being different. The big one I think of from early 1.11 is that Evangelion 01 does not lift its hand to shield Shinji. There's a very conspicuous shot where the lights do not fall, which kind of avoids the whole situation, but the absence itself is telling. I think the films expect you to have a pretty close understanding of the original texts without seeing them as some sort of immutable edifice. I think you really need to be sitting there going 'huh, that was different' and keeping track of it. A lot of people were upset that Asuka's name was changed and saw it as pointless, but her backstory in the Rebuilds is pretty different. There's even a scene where she chats to a doll, which is not something she'd do in the originals. And it goes on. Gendo no longer took Yui's name. SEELE might not even be human. Evangelions don't seem to require the mother-child link and have been thoroughly demystified. Lillith has a different mask. Sachiel wasn't the third angel. There are less angels. There was no singular Adam... But none of this is really dwelled upon, and I think that confuses people. The symbols are different, but no one's explaining why! But if all these elements are different, why would anyone expect for the endgame to be remotely the same? So, in that sense, people think that Misato should have Shinji's back, just like she always did in the originals (but did she?) and therefore think it's 'bad writing' that she doesn't like him much when he pops up out on her ship years after everything. It's not too dissimilar to how people take Kaworu's words as gospel and then get confused that it doesn't make sense, when Kaworu is a shifty dude who only cares about Shinji as part of his plan to kick off Fourth Impact for SEELE (he needs him to get past the barrier, that's literally it.) The series is always dancing with the reader's understanding of Evangelion, which I think makes it one of the most interesting sequels in any franchise. But because of that, people come to the series with preconceptions with how it must go and think that it's bad writing or Anno is an idiot or whatever when it doesn't go that way. Maybe a lot of people assumed that the Rebuilds would be a flashy, hi-def retelling the original series that would replace it. I think it's possible to see why when you watch the first film. But I think that'd suck! They're different stories and I think it's possible to love the TV series and the Rebuild films with a similar intensity, even if for entirely different reasons. SMERSH Mouth posted:Is Rebuild 1 an acceptable stand-in for the first few episodes if you’re showing the original series to someone who’s never seen it before, and if so, how many of the first episodes does it cover/replace? Kind of? For the most part, yes, but there are some fairly important differences that might get confusing or seem weird if you go from it to the TV series. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 14:17
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Irony Be My Shield posted:A lot of people have a different take on Eva than Anno did, and interpret that take constantly being contradicted as him 'hating his fans' rather than their take just being wrong. See, what I'm talking about is the opposite of that. People interpreting his motivations as aggressive and painting this as a positive thing. Like in this thread I see "3.33 is Anno being mad he's forced to make another loving Eva movie" which...isn't true? That's not how it happened. Rebuild was his idea and he's said as much. He wanted to make these movies. He started his own animation studio specifically to make these movies! Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 14:24
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I think there's even dated 3.33 concept art that shows that the overall plan for the timeskip and other elements, like the choker bombs, was being laid down during the production of 2.22. I know people in this thread have previously been annoyed because 3.33 supposedly introduced Adams and Marks and all these 'dumb' things... even though most of them originated in the first two films. There's more evidence that the Rebuilds have a planned-from-the-start vision than the original series ever did.
Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 14:26
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Nate RFB posted:This is such a bizarre take. Yes I'm sure Hideaki Anno despises the TV series that put him on the map, giving him enough clout to eventually form his own studio and direct a loving Godzilla film. Truly the only reason he's come back to Evangelion is some LET ME CORRECT THE RECORD antagonism. It’s not bizarre at all; he’s gone on the record that both The End of Evangelion and the current films are his attempts to capture his original vision that was derailed due to budgetary constraints, etc.
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Aug 20, 2020 15:31
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Fly Ricky posted:It’s not bizarre at all; he’s gone on the record that both The End of Evangelion and the current films are his attempts to capture his original vision that was derailed due to budgetary constraints, etc. That doesn't necessarily imply that he thinks the original series is bad. To me it implies that he wants to do more and "better" at telling similar stories.
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Aug 20, 2020 15:34
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SHISHKABOB posted:That doesn't necessarily imply that he thinks the original series is bad. To me it implies that he wants to do more and "better" at telling similar stories. Completely agree. My original post a bit hyperbolic by saying he’s “making GBS threads” on the originals.
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Aug 20, 2020 15:45
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Blockhouse posted:See, what I'm talking about is the opposite of that. People interpreting his motivations as aggressive and painting this as a positive thing. There's a huge contingent of Evangelion fans who, inexplicably, see the entire series as some kind of masochistic punishment for being an anime nerd, and the plot as a morality play centered on Shinji's actions even as both versions of the story repeatedly hammer on how powerless and manipulated he is. I'm kind of exhausted with it and I've probably said anything I could say to the contrary already anyways.
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Aug 20, 2020 16:48
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:The best thing about Evangelion 3.33 is how the Eva fanbase, having prided itself on being able to 'solve' Evangelion and piece together all of the details into a single grand narrative, I want to stress how recent the consensus reading of the story is. It was not that long ago that any two fans would have ten interpretations between them.
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Aug 20, 2020 17:01
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Blockhouse posted:There's this thing I've seen in Evangelion fandom since the beginning where people are doing this weird projection thing onto Anno's motivations that actually he hates Evangelion and everyone who likes it and despises otaku and is some kind of Tomino-esque grouchy old bastard and just This isn’t particularly unique to Evangelion fandom, “actually [thing] is making fun of its audience and the point is that [subject of thing] is bad” is, like, the most basic bitch media take imaginable and every self-pitying nerd who wants to look deep trots it out first thing to “explain” something. You see it really often in gaming circles whenever a popular game comes within a mile of using narrative dissonance or trying to engage in a dialog with the audience, e.g. Metal Gear, undertale, Spec Ops, even if the most cursory reading of the work underlined how bullshit the idea is. Anno hates Evangelion as much as hideo kojima hates 80s movies, which is to say not at all and you have to be insane to think that.
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Aug 21, 2020 00:35
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:This isn’t particularly unique to Evangelion fandom, “actually [thing] is making fun of its audience and the point is that [subject of thing] is bad” is, like, the most basic bitch media take imaginable and every self-pitying nerd who wants to look deep trots it out first thing to “explain” something. You see it really often in gaming circles whenever a popular game comes within a mile of using narrative dissonance or trying to engage in a dialog with the audience, e.g. Metal Gear, undertale, Spec Ops, even if the most cursory reading of the work underlined how bullshit the idea is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke1YKF3tNCE
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Aug 21, 2020 00:52
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Evangelion is a cautionary tale to rewind rented audio tapes and yall really missed the mark on the real meaning
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Aug 21, 2020 01:08
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Shinji is actually dreaming the events of the whole show while dozing on a coral reef. The final scene is everyone congratulating him because he finally woke his drowsy self up.
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Aug 21, 2020 03:13
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Nerd Culture is all about being a self loathing narcissist and believing that all art is either about confirming your fee fees or trolling you. It's impossible for nerds to think that art is about anything beyond either confirming them or condemning them, because they have no actual concept of a larger world outside their interaction with media, and thus all media must be a commentary on how they consume media. Because they see all things as consumption, and thus art is entirely about commenting on their consumption. Nerds despise life and creativity. They hate art. They only want consumption, and all that they consume is about themselves.
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Aug 21, 2020 04:29
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Wise words from Robotnik Nudes. Even if i disagree with em
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Aug 21, 2020 04:31
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Shinjobi posted:Wise words from Robotnik Nudes. I live for the tension between compliments and contention so you have flattered me immensely.
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Aug 21, 2020 04:41
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Yeah that's a good way to put it. It's very narcissistic to have this belief that Eva fans live in Anno's head rent free to the point that he'll spend years of his and several hundred other people's lives making a movie specifically to spite them instead of just, like, loving off to make Shin Godzilla 2 Kamata Boogaloo if he hated the series that much.
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Aug 21, 2020 04:54
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I recommend reading the interview between tomino and anno from the chars counterattack fan book if you think he's some Miyazaki style grouch Tl;Dr: the man enjoys anime and is also very horny
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Aug 21, 2020 04:57
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Blockhouse posted:Yeah that's a good way to put it. It's very narcissistic to have this belief that Eva fans live in Anno's head rent free to the point that he'll spend years of his and several hundred other people's lives making a movie specifically to spite them instead of just, like, loving off to make Shin Godzilla 2 Kamata Boogaloo if he hated the series that much. Yes, but the mental image is just funnier. Also Eva fans are garbo, they deserve to fall on the wrong side of Hanlon's razor 
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Aug 21, 2020 08:02
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Robotnik Nudes posted:Nerd Culture is all about being a self loathing narcissist and believing that all art is either about confirming your fee fees or trolling you. It's impossible for nerds to think that art is about anything beyond either confirming them or condemning them, because they have no actual concept of a larger world outside their interaction with media, and thus all media must be a commentary on how they consume media. Because they see all things as consumption, and thus art is entirely about commenting on their consumption. Thats cool and all, but what about this Evangelion hose? 
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Aug 21, 2020 10:21
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It seems like the amount of hardcore Eva otakus that actually own a home with which to use a hose is probably an exceptionally small market. poo poo I can’t even buy a hose like that at the department store next to my condo. But if you follow the evangelion_store_tokyo01 Instagram account you see that they’ll brand just about anything under the sun. Probably half the sales of that thing are to collectors living in a high-rise.
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Aug 21, 2020 14:09
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You have no idea how big Eva is here in Japan and just how much merchandise there is for poo poo literally everywhere One of my coworkers has a room in his house for all his anime collectables, he always buys 3 of everything, one for him, one for a gift, and one to keep in the packaging for his collection
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Aug 21, 2020 14:19
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BB2K posted:You have no idea how big Eva is here in Japan and just how much merchandise there is for poo poo literally everywhere I’ve been living here for 13 years, I get it. It’s just crazy to see how absurd they get with the merchandising. A loving garden hose with wheeled enclosure is right up there with one of the most illogical things I’ve seen them come out with. edit: I should have pointed out that by not selling those kind of hoses at the department store next to my condo, I meant the huge Japanese department store next to my Japanese condo. It’s just such a niche product here, even in non-Eva varieties. Fly Ricky fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 14:21
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I want to say there was a global list put out a few years ago about which were the most profitable franchises and Evangelion was like 30th, it's gigantic.
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Aug 21, 2020 14:23
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Nate RFB posted:I want to say there was a global list put out a few years ago about which were the most profitable franchises and Evangelion was like 30th, it's gigantic. If that’s out of anime franchises, I’m shocked it’s that low. If that’s out of all media franchises, I’m shocked it’s that high.
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Aug 21, 2020 14:24
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Fly Ricky posted:If that’s out of all media franchises, I’m shocked it’s that high. quote:it's gigantic.
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Aug 21, 2020 14:30
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Doesn't some insane proportion of it come from pachinko machine?
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Aug 21, 2020 14:35
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I don’t doubt you at all. But if that was a list of globally profitable media franchises, the fact that Evangelion is in the Top 30 is just mind-boggling. I wouldn’t have even guessed it’s in the Top 30 most profitable media franchises here in Japan. I mean there are a ton of decades-old (older than Eva) franchises here that sell poo poo with far more visibility and general availability than Eva. Irony Be My Shield posted:Doesn't some insane proportion of it come from pachinko machine? Pachinko is the X factor I hadn’t considered.
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Aug 21, 2020 14:39
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According to wikipedia it's worth $11.9bn, dwarfing all other income the franchise makes. e: this is a total rather than yearly list though so I don't know how much that represents continuing revenue
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Aug 21, 2020 14:42
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