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Shoehead posted:I just saw last weeks 3.33 trailer yesterday and it's got me super pumped, I've managed to stay pure and unspoiled for what feels like a year now. Uhhhhh I probably wouldn't have watched that trailer if I were you!
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Apr 24, 2013 11:49
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poo poo why? What have I done? Anyway doing research it looks like Manga did a lovely release of 1.11 on both formats and that's the dvd I have. Their 2.22 looks nice though. Edit: Aww poo poo did I watch a trailer for the fourth movie?
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Apr 24, 2013 12:35
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Hmm, wrote some comments about those two commentary videos. Though I mostly repeat the same ideas. http://loopingworld.com/2013/04/25/evangelion-as-postmodern-opera/ For me it's even more explicit, since Anno definitely intended Shinji representing himself, the otaku culture, as well the general audience, so the interplay of all these parts was always the main core of the show. The neat idea is seeing the TV ending and theatrical one as not simply two halves of the same conclusion, but as two alternate and opposite worlds. One as an happy end, the other where Anno answers the way his fans received his work and fully unleashes on them with all his rage (remember the scene at the end of the movie that shows a movie theater with people protesting, and it ends with Anno metaphorically "erasing" all humanity). So yeah, End of Evangelion is a giant "gently caress YOU ALL".
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Apr 25, 2013 01:09
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I've got a whole lot of objections to this line of thought, not least of which that the "happy ending" of the TV ending is kicked off by Shinji murdering the only person to unconditionally care for him, and that rejecting Instrumentality in EoE is in my opinion both presented as and genuinely the correct decision, which combined with the "all souls can return if they wish" makes the symbolic erasure of the audience a much subtler statement than "gently caress YOU ALL." But I'm barely awake and I haven't actually watched the videos yet so I'll hold off a bit.
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Apr 25, 2013 01:27
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Abalieno posted:The neat idea is seeing the TV ending and theatrical one as not simply two halves of the same conclusion, but as two alternate and opposite worlds. One as an happy end, the other where Anno answers the way his fans received his work and fully unleashes on them with all his rage (remember the scene at the end of the movie that shows a movie theater with people protesting, and it ends with Anno metaphorically "erasing" all humanity). So yeah, End of Evangelion is a giant "gently caress YOU ALL". I reached the same conclusion after I watched the series for the first time. 25 and 26 proper must be the happy ending, didn't you hear all the Congratulations? EoE was depressing as gently caress, everyone died! Bad ending achieved! But after rewatching the series and EoE and the 2 commentaries posted earlier, I actually think that they're two sides of the same coin, the final scene of EoE being almost an epilogue to what happened in 25/26. 26 is obviously the most optimistic of the 2 endings - Shinji realized that life is worth living but that you have to put forward the effort to make it good. Life isn't handed to you on a silver platter. What I got out of the final beach scene in EoE was that he had realized that concept, and he essentially came back to life because of. The scene is dark and depressing, yeah, but it's almost ironically optimistic. If a hosed up 14 year old who killed his best friend and literally just had his entire life crash and burn before his very eyes can realize there are upsides to life, then everyone else can too.
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Apr 25, 2013 03:02
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I said something like this in the old thread: the remarkable thing about the scene where Shinji strangles Asuka isn't that he tries to kill her. The Instrumentality sequence itself has at least one scene where they express their loathing for each other, IIRC Asuka even says she'd rather die than erase the boundary between them. (Well, not explicitly, the scene's constructed so she could be talking about anything from Instrumentality to sex to simply co-existing. But they're degrees of the same thing, at least for this purpose.) But no -- the remarkable thing is that he stops. He killed the Angels, he killed Kaworu, Unit-01 kills (giant naked) Rei and it's not really clear if that's under Shinji or Yui's agency, and he initiated Instrumentality by wishing for his own / everyone's death. But he backs down from killing Asuka. It's the smallest possible optimism, and god knows Asuka isn't impressed, but it's a start.
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Apr 25, 2013 03:13
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I just can't look at the last 15 or so minutes of EoE and not think it's an overall positive message, for both the audience and Shinji. He had to go to the darkest of places, but in the end he reached back towards an existence that at least allowed the possibility of happiness even if it came with pain. I think that if I were to word it differently, it'd be that the TV series' ending comes off as a filtered version of the various developments.
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Apr 25, 2013 03:33
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Because the end of EoE is not "judgmental". Shinji isn't condemned, but certainly he doesn't overcome his problems as it happens in the TV show. If you have a link try finding the short interview with Tsurumaki in the Red Book or something like that. Where he explains that in the end the outcome is "fine" anyway. It's simply a sad end because Shinji fails, but this failure is still accepted. It's a compassionate ending, if you want, but it's still a failure. EDIT: found it: http://www.evaotaku.com/html/rcb-tsurumaki.html quote:-- At the end of this movie, Shinji seems to have reached a sort of settlement regarding troubles of the heart. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 03:49
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That's not exactly a Ridley Scott "Deckard is a Replicant" stance. If anything it just seems to state that whatever Shinji decided or concluded ultimately doesn't matter (which I guess is technically true, though it obviously matters on a personal level to Shinji and probably those around him), and even then he's non-committal on the subject. And all of that is strange to me since in the first place, from a literal standpoint without Shinji Instrumentality would have gone on unchecked. I guess technically the "world goes on" in that scenario as well but it's a rather nihilistic and overly simplistic perspective.
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Apr 25, 2013 04:07
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I'm also generally hostile to any interpretation of the series that says "Shinji just needs to own up to his mistakes and everything will be okay" when the series establishes right from the first episode that Shinji is being broken, molded, and manipulated by at least two adult figures who can't even agree on exactly what they want him to do. What are his mistakes, exactly? They can't be in his actual plot-relevant actions, because all of those are devil's choices like "get in the robot and suffer pain and terror OR force it off onto the cute injured girl instead" or "murder your friend and confidant in cold blood OR all of humanity dies." That just leaves his attitude, and honestly "everyone despises me unless I'm obedient and excel at something I hate, so that's what I'll do" isn't a mistake, it's an accurate assessment of his situation. You could blame him for not reaching out to people, except that everyone he reaches out to in the series dies (Rei, Kaworu, Kaji), is alienated from him as a result of things he couldn't have avoided (Touji, Kensuke), or is too busy having a crisis of their own to help (Misato for sure, arguably Asuka as well.) I mean, really, what am I missing? Setting aside the jerk-off scene (which is reprehensible, but happens in the context of a nervous breakdown), how often does Shinji a) have actual agency AND b) do the wrong thing with it? (EDIT: That Kazuya Tsurumaki interview seems to imply that "failure to communicate properly" is what they had in mind, but if you ask me that failure is epidemic across the entire cast, which is very different from blaming Shinji specifically and using him as a kind of effigy for anime nerds and Anno himself.) --- Rebuild is another story, because trying to save Rei is entirely his own decision, among other small things leading up to it. But if they try to portray that as "selfish" and wrong then gently caress 'em, I'll send Anno polite and articulate hatemail myself, and stick Evangelion next to Gurren Lagann on the list of Gainax shows I vehemently disagree with. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 04:22
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People focus too much on Anno's intended meaning for Eva, which is self examination through an author insert character, meant to lead a specific type of audience member to a personal revelation he feels they need. That ignores all of the other subtext in the series, such as:
There's also the problem of cultural expectations. For the Western viewer it's obvious that Shinji is ultimately not responsible for anything that happens to him or around him, and it's all the fault of the amazingly malicious, incompetent and predatory adults in his life, including his monster of a father and his batshit crazy mother. However, Shinji absolutely cannot deny his responsibility, or he will be seen as a highly unsympathetic character, and anything that smacks of shirking "his" responsibilities will be seen as an equally unsympathetic viewpoint. There's also the mystical, sacred journey aspect of the narrative to consider. Shinji is a Holy Fool, progressing through a series of challenges or labors before he meets the Abyss, which is Instrumentality. Kaworu is the guardian of the Abyss; he offers Shinji a chance to turn back and remain stagnant- his "unconditional love" is another fantasy, given freely for nothing in return but ultimately hollow. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Rebuild is another story, because trying to save Rei is entirely his own decision, among other small things leading up to it. But if they try to portray that as "selfish" and wrong then gently caress 'em, I'll send Anno polite and articulate hatemail myself, and stick Evangelion next to Gurren Lagann on the list of Gainax shows I vehemently disagree with. Again, it doesn't matter. Shinji could not defend himself, even though he could provide a perfectly valid defense (namely, you people put me in a machine you don't understand, gave me only the most rudimentary training, never warned me about the potential consequences of my actions, and encouraged me to do what I was doing) The "just following orders" argument doesn't apply here, since he had no knowledge of the consequences of his action. It's like putting a man in a box with a button and giving him a dollar to press it and then blaming him after he learns pushing the button killed a baby every time. You would be to blame in that instance, as Shinji's superiors are to blame for what he did at the end of 2.0- but he can't offer that defense or be seen as a reprehensible shirker of responsibility.
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Apr 25, 2013 04:51
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The Riddle of Feel posted:There's also the problem of cultural expectations. For the Western viewer it's obvious that Shinji is ultimately not responsible for anything that happens to him or around him, and it's all the fault of the amazingly malicious, incompetent and predatory adults in his life, including his monster of a father and his batshit crazy mother. I dunno, personally I'd be thrilled to hear him say "Screw you, you're not blaming this on me." Especially if it came right before some kind of truly independent action; I can hardly think of a more fitting catharsis. The Riddle of Feel posted:Again, it doesn't matter. Shinji could not defend himself, even though he could provide a perfectly valid defense (namely, you people put me in a machine you don't understand, gave me only the most rudimentary training, never warned me about the potential consequences of my actions, and encouraged me to do what I was doing) ... although once you put it in the context of killing babies or wiping out 90% of mankind, it gets a little harder to refute. I'm glad you raised this point because I totally overlooked it, but it's kind of disappointing because if he still isn't permitted to take actions on his own responsibility, then Rebuild isn't nearly as much of a departure as I thought. EDIT: I suppose the other radical alternative would be to say "I'd do it again!" and embrace the guilt completely, which sounds horrific but might be relevant in light of the whole "Rebuild is a sequel" thing. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 04:56
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I'm trying to figure out if the subs I have to the main series are from Platinum or Renewal, could anyone point a difference between the two so I can compare?
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Apr 25, 2013 05:37
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Hey just a big FYI, the manga has in fact moved along this whole time. Just read through the manga's whole Instrumentality sequence. Pretty good stuff. Basically the same as EoE, but this time Shinji does manage to save Asuka from the Eva Series, and Gendo just dies, he doesn't get torn in half by EVA-01. Aside from that, Shinji's pretty level-headed this time around, managing to be a badass by saving Asuka and still gets his whole breakdown/redemption scene during Instrumentality. One of the chapters said "Continued in May" so we might actually get some closure?!  Here's a Mangahere link. Might want to start from Chapter 84.2 E: Huh, I didn't know Asuka was a test-tube baby in the manga. Synthwave Crusader fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 07:20
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Abalieno posted:I'm trying to figure out if the subs I have to the main series are from Platinum or Renewal, could anyone point a difference between the two so I can compare?  There's the first spoken words in the first episode, from the platinum collection.
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Apr 25, 2013 07:27
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Abalieno posted:I'm trying to figure out if the subs I have to the main series are from Platinum or Renewal, could anyone point a difference between the two so I can compare? As far as the subs go, they're the same thing, Renewal is the Japanese name. The only major difference iirc is that Renewal's version of EoE contains a live-action sequence that isn't in the English version. Tuxedo Catfish posted:I said something like this in the old thread: the remarkable thing about the scene where Shinji strangles Asuka isn't that he tries to kill her. ... But no -- the remarkable thing is that he stops. He killed the Angels, he killed Kaworu, Unit-01 kills (giant naked) Rei and it's not really clear if that's under Shinji or Yui's agency, and he initiated Instrumentality by wishing for his own / everyone's death. But he backs down from killing Asuka. He tries to break her neck in the mini-Instrumentality when the female characters are talking to him, but does he "succeed"? I can't remember but it's a great parallel if he did. I thought those videos were pretty insightful about that scene.
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Apr 25, 2013 08:09
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House Louse posted:As far as the subs go, they're the same thing, Renewal is the Japanese name. The only major difference iirc is that Renewal's version of EoE contains a live-action sequence that isn't in the English version. Ah, memories. I actually imported the movies since the Manga DVD releases were so abysmal. I even added subtitles, though I unfortunately learned that I am not cut out to be a fansubber, as I probably wound up watching both Death^2 (a film which I think is quite underrated even for a recap) and EoE a dozen times each over the course of a month to get the timing right.
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Apr 25, 2013 13:28
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After watching EoE, I disagree with puppet guy's assessment that the ending of the movie is supposed to be a condemnation of Shinji as a total failure of a human being. Shinji goes from catatonic depression to turning down paradise, and that's a hell of a step in the right direction. I think what people don't understand is that his rejection of Instrumentality doesn't mean his depression vanished instantly and he was chipper for all time, but that from then on he would make an honest-to-god commitment to being happier. So here's Shinji lazing around on the LCL beach with nothing but his thoughts to occupy him (judging by how visibly aged Misato's cross looks, it's been some time), and suddenly he turns and sees the one girl that's pushed his neurotic buttons the most. He's still so caught him in his mental drama the first thing he does is strangle her but when he feels Asuka gently caress his cheek, he realizes that love is possible in even the most terrifying places. And then the dam breaks and he breaks down crying. I think Ano was trying to say to man the gently caress up and to not let depression rule you, but to also understand that like every great undertaking in life, it's a long, arduous process.
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Apr 25, 2013 15:40
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new subtitles are out that are timed to the home release. So you can just load these into your media player after you insert your 3.33 blu-ray disc.
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Apr 25, 2013 17:56
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SHISHKABOB posted:
Yes, but are they different from previous versions? The ones I have have that same line. I wonder why the TV series hasn't been re-released in BD yet. Is there some sort of embargo? Everything else got a BD release.
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Apr 26, 2013 02:56
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Probably something to do with the original local distributor, ADV, folding, and might be some trouble on Funimation's end with getting the licensing from the original dub VAs that didn't stick around for Rebuild- or something along those lines. I'm honestly just taking an educated guess, here.
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Apr 26, 2013 04:52
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No Japanese release yet. Madman (AU distributor) said Starchild/Khara/Gainax is holding off on licensing the TV series/EoE/D&R until after the new movies are done. We could see a possible JP BD release in 2015 to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the series and the fact that it's the setting's year as well.
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Apr 26, 2013 05:14
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ultimatemegax posted:We could see a possible JP BD release in 2015 to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the series and the fact that it's the setting's year as well. At which point they'll realize the anime industry peaked with Eva, and only went downhill since  Really, it's quite something if you rewatch the first three episodes of Eva and compare to stuff like Valvrave or Gargantia.
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Apr 26, 2013 05:30
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Abalieno posted:I wonder why the TV series hasn't been re-released in BD yet. Is there some sort of embargo? Everything else got a BD release. I remember reading out in the vast wilds of the internet that some Japanese anime producers don't have the original animation for some animes anymore, only copies at slightly better than DVD resolutions, so the reason most old anime like Cowboy Bebop and Eva haven't gotten the blu-ray treatment is because the originals simply don't exist anymore, so we'd only ever get DVD quality releases if they tried.
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Apr 26, 2013 05:36
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SatansBestBuddy posted:I remember reading out in the vast wilds of the internet that some Japanese anime producers don't have the original animation for some animes anymore, only copies at slightly better than DVD resolutions, so the reason most old anime like Cowboy Bebop and Eva haven't gotten the blu-ray treatment is because the originals simply don't exist anymore, so we'd only ever get DVD quality releases if they tried. Cowboy Bebop actually did get some blu-rays out a few months back! And they look pretty nice. Pity there's no sign of a release in English. Gainax has been releasing a lot of their older stuff on blu-ray (and goddamn, do those Gunbuster blu-rays look great) so until I hear otherwise I'm assuming they're just saving the Eva blu-rays for the 20th anniversary/something to make more money once the movies end.
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Apr 26, 2013 06:15
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Abalieno posted:At which point they'll realize the anime industry peaked with Eva, and only went downhill since Yeah like how Valvrave is entertaining and makes me want to watch more of it.
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Apr 26, 2013 06:34
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I'd imagine Gunbuster was easier to save for blu-ray since it was an OVA and Eva wasn't rail-roaded by sudden pull of sponsors by the end of the show's run.
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Apr 26, 2013 06:35
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I was browsing the articles on that page and noticed this: "Humanity has reached its evolutionary limit. Their salvation lies in invoking the Human Instrumentality Project." Like with the "A.T. Field" which is a direct translation of a Kabbalistic principle that is called "the breaking of the vessel", this line is also a translation of another Kabbalistic idea. Kabbalah also says we're just about at that evolutionary limit (going trough a cycle of "desire": still -> vegetative -> animate -> speaking, each holding within recursively the same four phases, and we are one step before the final), and they actively push to what is ideally the same of the Instrumentality Project. In their case this simply means a spiritual awakening, but it is also done by merging spirits. In fact it's something you simply can't achieve on your own. So, as in Evangelion, there's both this idea that we are exactly at the evolutionary limit AND the fact that this next level requires a novel form of merging spirituality. So once again Evangelion is merely taking Kabbalistic texts and make them LITERAL. In Kabbalah there's this idea of "breaking the physical vessel" in order to break one's personal "egoism" that keeps us as separate living beings, and in Evangelion they literally make people melt into a worldwide LCL triggered by Shinji's instrumentality. I was even thinking that the idea of cyclical time loops is a Kabbalistic one, but while Kabbalah has the idea of repeating cycles, these aren't directly in the form of the exact same events. So in this case the analogy isn't as precise. P.S. The first link coming up about the breaking of the vessel (even if it doesn't explain it so well) contains this, and you could as well read it as if it's talking about Eva: quote:Nevertheless, the Breaking of the Vessels is a truly cataclysmic event. Will, Wisdom and Understanding remain, but all other values, particularly those embodied in the cultural and symbolic order of mankind, have been shattered. Further, while certain forms (may) remain, their embodiment in matter, is chaotic and confused. The Breaking of the Vessels is, according to the Lurianic Kabbalah, a clearing of the decks, a fresh start, and a challenge to the structures that we equate with our own civilized life. It is, in short, an eruption of chaos into the heart of our spiritual, conceptual, moral and psychological structures. It's like it's talking about EoE final scenes after the literal breaking of the human vessels into LCL. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Apr 26, 2013 |
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Apr 26, 2013 06:56
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Srice posted:Cowboy Bebop actually did get some blu-rays out a few months back! And they look pretty nice. Pity there's no sign of a release in English. It looks like we're getting the Cowboy Bebop BDs released here in Australia at least.  Source: http://www.madman.com.au/images/slicks/very-large/mmb778.png
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Apr 26, 2013 08:03
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That had better not be the final box art, where's Ein?Nate RFB posted:This was a deleted scene that was an extra on the Renewal disc, not something that was added into the film itself. Oh, my mistake. Death is the only recap I've ever seen that wasn't just cut cut cut, I was surprised by how interesting it was. We were supposed to have new versions of the films a few years ago, but nope. Abalieno posted:Yes, but are they different from previous versions? The ones I have have that same line. Yes. Edged Hymn posted:After watching EoE, I disagree with puppet guy's assessment that the ending of the movie is supposed to be a condemnation of Shinji as a total failure of a human being. Shinji goes from catatonic depression to turning down paradise, and that's a hell of a step in the right direction. The puppet's argument was that Shinji turned down Instrumentality for the wrong reasons, which I hadn't thought of before. Interesting idea but I want to rewatch EoE before deciding, and anyway, wouldn't a better Bad End be accepting Instrumentality? Also a better example of giving the fans what they want and then showing them why it's so awful, which he already did with in episode 26 anyway. quote:I think what people don't understand is that his rejection of Instrumentality doesn't mean his depression vanished instantly and he was chipper for all time, but that from then on he would make an honest-to-god commitment to being happier. My biggest beef with the ending, though I've never seen any piece of art treat this realisation properly. Abalieno posted:Kabbala Interesting coincidences but t doesn't tell us anything and there's no evidence of intent. For one thing Kabbalah is a lot more complex than the uses he does make of Western traditions which are simple and obvious, just crosses, secret Dead Sea scrolls, and Angel names I think. (E: Well, some other stuff, but that doesn't change my point.) Can you give a Kabbalistic source for AT field though? Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Apr 26, 2013 |
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Apr 26, 2013 14:54
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House Louse posted:Interesting coincidences but t doesn't tell us anything and there's no evidence of intent. I don't know. I can pile A LOT of evidence. For example Adam, as the idea of a body generating all other humanity (like the Adam on the cross in Nerv's basement) is exactly the Kabbalistic Adam Kadmon shown literally. See how down the trunk there are legs as if human shapes come right out of Admam's body? In Kabbalah the idea is that all human beings are chunks taken away from the same collective soul (in fact the idea that human beings on earth increase in number means that each piece is getting smaller, our souls are getting literally thinner), and Adam Kadmon represents the spiritual unity from where everything was generated. In Kabbalah Adam is not the "first man", but the spiritual body that was shattered in pieces to create all humanity as separate beings. The unity of all human beings IS Adam Kadmon. And that's the idea you have represented in Eva, or at least the one suggested by that image. quote:Can you give a Kabbalistic source for AT field though? I don't have anything direct. I just know they have this ideas of "egoism" that keeps people as individual beings. By the way, the Dead Sea Scrolls in Eva mythology (which represent the totality of Torah, in our reality) are considered as a kind of tech manual to jumpstart Instrumentality. This is in Kabbalah myth too. Kabbalah's texts are considered nothing more than instruction manuals for spirituality. They contain the metaphoric "ladder" that you need to climb to reawaken some spiritual hundreds of senses, one by one. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Apr 26, 2013 |
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Apr 26, 2013 20:40
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Abalieno posted:I don't know. I can pile A LOT of evidence. For example Adam, as the idea of a body generating all other humanity (like the Adam on the cross in Nerv's basement) is exactly the Kabbalistic Adam Kadmon shown literally. See how down the trunk there are legs as if human shapes come right out of Admam's body? That's Lilith. Adam is the mother (this is the word used) of the Angels - the giant monster in Antartica and later embroyothing in Gendo's hand. As Lilith regenerates her legs properly after Rei takes the Lance of Longinus out of her, I think that's her trying to regenerate and being blocked by the Lance. quote:In Kabbalah Adam is not the "first man", but the spiritual body that was shattered in pieces to create all humanity as separate beings. The unity of all human beings IS Adam Kadmon. And that's the idea you have represented in Eva, or at least the one suggested by that image. I think it fits with Adam's part in Third Impact, too. quote:I don't have anything direct. I just know they have this ideas of "egoism" that keeps people as individual beings. OK. I was curious about the specific phrase because I've heard people say this about psychology, too. quote:By the way, the Dead Sea Scrolls in Eva mythology (which represent the totality of Torah, in our reality) are considered as a kind of tech manual to jumpstart Instrumentality. This is in Kabbalah myth too. I'm not denying there are references to Judaism. ut I don't think they're very meaningful references. Anno makes tons of references - there are all the characters with ship names, and biological ideas such as Central Dogma - but they're not all keys to the series' meaning. Most of the Jewish references are labels for simple concepts, like I said, they're not deep influences that seem to have determined anything about the series. Take "Instrumentality" for instance; it's pinched from Cordwainer Smith's short stories, where the Instrumentality of Mankind is a organisation trying to guide humanity in the right direction (and Smith took it from Catholicism; I think a priest performing a sacrament is God's "instrumentality"). That's pretty different to its use in Eva, though you can see the connection. Then there's the issue of how religions in general are used in the series. Generally the references are shallow, but in general they serve two purposes. Firstly, signifying Eva's switch in interest from the external to the internal; and secondly rather deep suspicion of religion at all. The nearest thing to religious characters are SEELE, and they're satirised and shown as deluded fools, even less capable of living properly than Shinji, willing to kill and destroy anyone and anything to get their way. If you look back at the first page of the thread there's some Aum chat; I think they're a much deeper influence than anything Western. And the other appropriations are fairly disrespectful, too - the Angels are monsters, the Lance of Longinus is just a label, I think even "god" gets used to describe Unit 01. Also, take a look at the OP and the big page of interviews. Ctrl+f for Kabbalah, qabalah, cabala... no results. Authorial intent isn't worth much to me, but the correspondences with Judiasm are weak to me, in the sense that they're vague and don't tell me anything. What do they tell you that you can't see elsewhere in the series/films? Are you saying there that Eva's a spiritual instrustion manual? If so, what does it say?
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Apr 26, 2013 23:59
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House Louse posted:The puppet's argument was that Shinji turned down Instrumentality for the wrong reasons, which I hadn't thought of before. Interesting idea but I want to rewatch EoE before deciding, and anyway, wouldn't a better Bad End be accepting Instrumentality? Also a better example of giving the fans what they want and then showing them why it's so awful, which he already did with in episode 26 anyway. Well, I watched the Japanese version of EoE, which puppet guy says characterizes Shinji as more childish and spiteful compared to the English dub, and I didn't get the impression that Shinji was trying to stick it to humanity at all. Shinji's entire life has been defined by his constant need to run away, and when he is presented with the option of the ultimate escape - returning to the Source/Absolute/whatever - he turns it down. Not because he wants everyone to suffer with him, but because he realizes it doesn't solve the human condition, it just sweeps it under the rug for an entirely different mode of existence. He understands that the only way to make peace with reality is not to transcend it, but to live with the cards you're dealt with. He even says something to the effect of "this doesn't feel right, this feels wrong somehow" during the gigantic clusterfuck that is the second half of EoE. I didn't read spite or hatred in his lines at all. I still agree with everything else the guys says, he's just confusing Ano's (really) tough love with maliciousness.
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Apr 27, 2013 01:00
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House Louse posted:Also, take a look at the OP and the big page of interviews. Ctrl+f for Kabbalah, qabalah, cabala... no results. Yes, but the "tree of life" is literally the first thing shown in the OP. Many terms are from Kabbalah and the final development coincides. I simply think Anno decided to weave the fictional layer within the myth of Kabbalah simply because it's a good tool to examine the internal conflict. quote:Authorial intent isn't worth much to me, but the correspondences with Judiasm are weak to me, in the sense that they're vague and don't tell me anything. What do they tell you that you can't see elsewhere in the series/films? Are you saying there that Eva's a spiritual instrustion manual? If so, what does it say? In Kabbalah they take what you consider the modern "Bible" as a purely symbolic text. This means that everything you read isn't directly what it is, but stands for something else entirely. It's nothing but a code (while most people read it for what it seems, literally). This is what they call "language of root and branches" (inverted tree). The roots are the spiritual ideas, the branches are the objects in our real world. So a "car" is an object that used in a Kabbalistic text simply symbolizes something completely different. This kind of trick is the actual substance of Eva. There's a fictional layer of these kids fighting with giant robots against aliens. And then there's a "message", where the angels instead represent insurmountable difficulties of adult lives. If your focus stays on the fictional layer, then you miss most of the actual cause/effect that builds the show. you need to peel off that fictional layer so that you can get to the good stuff in Eva. And that's what they did with the last episode, though it pissed off most of the fans. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Apr 27, 2013 |
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Apr 27, 2013 01:22
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Let's talk about one of the major influences on Anno himself, and Evangelion in particular: UFO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XAIXP937Ac UFO was Gerry Anderson's first live action project. After years of doing Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet, Supercar, and the other marionettevision projects, he finally graduated to doing more adult oriented live action programs. It ran for 1 season in 1970, and was followed up by the much more popular Space: 1999 As you can see from the opening sequence, many of the NERV costume designs were based on Sylvia Anderson's UFO ones. Indeed, Evangelion's opening itself pays homage to UFO with all the various flashing words throughout. The similarities don't end there, either: the Earth is being invaded by aliens about which we know nothing, seem to want nothing, and are almost impossible to communicate with. We never see more than two of them at a time. They look like green skinned humans, and perhaps their planet needs to harvest our organs to keep themselves alive? They have no name, and are simply referred to as "The Aliens" for the show's entire run. They are opposed by a shadowy organization that hides in bases underground, on the moon, under the sea, and throughout the air. SHADO stands as the only life of defense against this mysterious and strange invasion force.  The head of this top secret organization, Colonel Ed Straker, routinely makes hard decisions that leave him emotionally drained and shut off from others. He has an estranged son he lets die because stopping the aliens is more important. He has a tense relationship with his ex-wife that goes more and more downhill as he sacrifices more and more for his job. The few friends he does have are all fellow officers and soldiers, and as a result they tend to die unexpectedly. He is driven, manipulative, cold, and willing to sacrifice anything to drive off the Aliens. Sound like anyone else we know? Viewed through a certain lens, Evangelion works quite well as a spiritual sequel to UFO, asking what might have happened if Straker's son hadn't died, and what their relationship might have been like years and years later. Anno's first animation group was named SHADO, if that gives you any indication to the degree of his fandom. The show is available on DVD, and is totally worth your time. It's certainly a product of its time, but the miniatures work is excellent, the writing and acting fantastic, and the production values as good as they could be back then. If you want to know where Eva came from, this is one of the shows to watch.
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Apr 27, 2013 06:23
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FYI the UTW-THORA release is out. At least in 1080p, other versions will require more time.
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Apr 27, 2013 07:08
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Holy poo poo balls, just read the manga and fair dues on how instrumentality was handled. If anbody has yet to read them , go so.
Foul Ole Ron fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Apr 27, 2013 |
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Apr 27, 2013 08:23
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 Pen-Pen...I'd love a long documentary from an alien's perspective as they catalog Earth thousands of years in the future while trying to figure out what the gently caress happened on this planet. The abandoned NERV HQ was really amazing and I wish more time was spent showing it off.
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Apr 27, 2013 09:52
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Spoilers Below posted:The head of this top secret organization, Colonel Ed Straker, routinely makes hard decisions that leave him emotionally drained and shut off from others. He has an estranged son he lets die because stopping the aliens is more important. He has a tense relationship with his ex-wife that goes more and more downhill as he sacrifices more and more for his job. The few friends he does have are all fellow officers and soldiers, and as a result they tend to die unexpectedly. He is driven, manipulative, cold, and willing to sacrifice anything to drive off the Aliens. Sound like anyone else we know? Misato!
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Apr 27, 2013 11:29
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ACanofPepsi posted:
It really reminded me of Portal 2. Recognizing spesific places was haunting too. Oh and I know I'm totally late to the party here but holy poo poo! That loving movie! Edit: Spoilers Below posted:Let's talk about one of the major influences on Anno himself, and Evangelion in particular: UFO I wonder how much the Ghibli short was influenced by Anno being super into Gerry Anderson. It really felt like an episode of Thunderbirds were everything explodes for 20 minutes, not to mention the marionettes. Shoehead fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Apr 27, 2013 |
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Apr 27, 2013 11:47
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