Neon Genesis Evangelion megathread: Death & Rebirth of the author

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GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

RebBrownies posted:

Is there anything the characters could have done to disrupt the scenario/fate?

Kaji probably had some leverage (e.g. rat out Gendo to SEELE, Wikileak the whole story and watch the riots) but he abdicated any world-changing role for himself and sought to reconnect to human beings instead. Perhaps he simply recognized his own inadequacy (e.g. one dude, however handsome and badass, cannot stop a global illuminati conspiracy backed up by giant robots). Perhaps he believed that he could stop them but that doing so would force him to assume a Gendo-type role of manipulation and betrayal ("battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster"). Since Misato was close to Gendo, Kaji would not be able to dethrone Gendo without hurting her. So he just gave up and planted watermelons instead.

Ritsuko might have been able to reshape events, but I get the sense that she didn't really want to distrust/betray/hurt Gendo (because admitting his flaws would force her to confront her own). By implementing his (crazy) plan, she at least had a chance to be involved in his life. Also: if she actually tried anything sneaky then Caspar would have snitched on her.

Either Kaji or Ritsuko them could have sabotaged the NERV HQ defence and self-destruct system during an Angel attack in order to bring about Third Impact. Think of the Matarael attack, except with an actually threatening Angel instead of a big dumb spider.

Misato could have shot Gendo in the face whenever she became sufficiently sick of his smug bullshit (or his reckless disregard for the well-being of his subordinates, or his cruel mistreatment of his son, or his spending of the entire NERV pension fund on a sightseeing trip to the Moon). Of course, he could always asspull an AT Field and stop the bullet, but that's a risk worth taking.

The children could have changed things on many occasions (e.g. by losing fights, or by killing people). But they generally didn't have enough information to make important decision; they were thoroughly deceived and manipulated by people around them; they didn't really understand the probable outcomes (or alternatives). Also they're children - we don't expect them to accept agency for fate-of-the-world stuff.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2013 23:26

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# ¿ May 20, 2024 17:04

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

biomatter posted:

The only thing I don't like about the show so far are all the long, drawn-out still shots. I understand that it is trying to be more mellow and dramatic, but jesus christ do those scenes last forever sometimes.

The artistic choices were sometimes driven by budget constraints. Later on, you'll run into "briefing" or "meeting" scenes in which characters conveniently hold objects (e.g. notebooks, folders, coffee mugs) in front of their faces while speaking, in order to spare the expense of synchronizing the mouth-flapping animation. Extended still-shots are sometimes used for the same reason, but at other times they're deliberately included in order to "capture the viewer" in the moment, or to deliberately induce a sense of unease.

The convenient-camera-angle thing is parodied in the movies (when they had a much larger budget to work with). Characters will occasionally hold an object just beside their faces while speaking - but the mouth flaps are still visible, and there's usually a crapton of expensive 3DCG stuff occurring in the background. NGE loves to gently caress with its audience.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2013 23:39

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

MadRhetoric posted:

Close to, but not as amazing as that limited run of Eva champagne with diamond-encrusted bottles.

Ak Gara posted:

I like to think that with every time cycle more gets written into the dead sea scrolls. Sort of like an apocalypse wiki. It wouldn't surprise me if at some point it has "PS, Shinji is a pussy and will run away" scribbled in Gendo's handwriting.

Better yet, that gives us the potential for cross-timeline keikaku shenanigans. Perhaps Gendo (Rebuild) is being manipulated by Gendo (EoE), who convinced him to erase SEELE because he's upset with them for wrecking his cool base.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2013 09:00

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

FeedingHam2Cats posted:

It still was about the same thing, but it turns out taking control of your life doesn't mean things are going to be good and you are going to be responsible for the choices you make

Yeah, that's something that I like about Evangelion. Hot-blooded enthusiasm is usually the wrong answer; we're repeatedly shown the importance of organization, logistics, exhaustive testing, systems documentation, simulation, contingencies and redundant backups, emergency evacuation protocols, etc... Why is that significant? Because the former is a fictional trope while the latter are things that human beings actually do when faced with serious risks.

In essence: protagonism is no substitute for planning.

SirDrone posted:

I would probably enjoy Shinji way more if he grew a spine

Adeptus Evangelion is that-a-way.

code:

"Asuka! Shinji! What happened?" Misato asked.

"THIS loving PSYCHO JUST TRIED TO STAB THE ANGEL WITH ITS OWN -TEETH-!"

# ¿ Aug 21, 2013 17:21

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

SHISHKABOB posted:

Wow I didn't see those teeth before... that's terrifying

Neither did I, but that's mainly because I was completely focused on the Moon:

how is the entire disc illuminated while the sun is overhead?
why does it have an atmosphere?
why is it covered in blood?
why are there clouds but no oceans?

Of course, that was quickly swept aside by the realization that Unit-01 had presumably used its "Hey Zeruel, step the gently caress back" AT-shove to manipulate a system whose binding energy is literally astronomical (note: it's on the order of 10²⁸ J). Some back-of-the-envelope math suggests that Tanging everybody (melt 11 kg of calcium, boil 46 kg of water, multiply by seven billion) would involve only 10¹⁷ J. That's a generous estimate - the human population of NGE is actually a lot smaller than 7 billion, and it would be energetically cheaper to dissolve everything instead of relying on steam lysis (but the melt|boil numbers are easy to compute so :meh:).

Context: Second impact tipped the scales at around 7.5 x 10²⁵ J. Moving the Moon is a big deal.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2013 19:04

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

trucutru posted:

What part of me expecting them being able to properly deal with the guy you planned to rescue is having unrealistic expectations?

They didn't intend to rescue Shinji. They intended to recover Unit-01 because it serves a vital role in their plans (and in their personal hope for survival). They didn't kill him on sight because they needed to ensure that Unit-01 would still work without his presence. Perhaps Misato's plan was to keep him alive in order to serve as bait and draw Nerv into battle (under circumstances favourable to Wille). _{But given her subsequent refusal to pull the trigger, it's evident that "sentiment" plays a significant role in her decision to keep him alive.}

None of that requires anyone to be kind to Shinji, or to explain anything to him. He isn't actually part of Wille, so divulging information could be dangerous (OPSEC!). Almost everyone on board has had their lives ruined by his actions, so noone feels a personal impetus to help him - Asuka would have happily broken his jaw! Even if they did want to help, they'd probably defer to Misato and follow her lead (aside from Sakura, who's too young to appreciate the gravity of the situation).

Edit: actually, Mari would have helped Shinji because she likes him and she just doesn't give a poo poo about consequences. Unfortunately, she was busy during the attack.

GulMadred fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Nov 12, 2013

# ¿ Nov 12, 2013 22:30

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:

I looks like the the thing NERV managed to do was create things that could generate AT fields without needing a human pilot/soul. Eva's may be made out of angel bits but they can't generate AT fields without human pilots/souls/dummy plugs.

I disagree slightly with your first point. My take on it is that Nerv (or were they still called Gehirn at that point?) could have made autonomous AT-capable EVA units, but that they chose not to. The problem with an autonomous unit is that it won't necessarily serve the goals of its creators - when you turn it on for the first time, it might just decide to go say "hi!" to Lilith. The research team would presumably have known the truth about Antarctica (Second Impact), so they would have been cautious in their work. "Let's create a perfect copy of the world-killing monster and then activate it and see what happens" wasn't on their agenda.

Therefore Nerv/Gehirn deliberately interfered with the growth process, generating misshapen abortions (hundreds of them!). Eventually they created a few which, while crippled and lobotimized, were alive and were capable of further development. The subsequent work - battery cells, armor bindings, Contact Experiments, Signal Termination Plugs, Entry Plugs, synchronization tests, Dummy Plugs - constituted a prolonged attempt to restore the original power and autonomy of the EVA units, but with crucial restraints in place (the most important one being "don't do anything unless one of the human souls inside you says that it's a good idea").

The Nemesis units seem to have fully autonomy but they also seem to operate under very limited rules-of-engagement. My guess is that the Nemesis units are controlled remotely (as seen when Shinji directed the defense drones on Eva 13) by Nerv personnel. There's a thematic parallel with Rei here - she's an autonomous human being who's capable of making her own decisions, yet she usually does nothing until she's given orders by someone in authority.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2013 02:23

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

RMZXAnarchy posted:

Only one thing really outright bugs me though.

In the ending, why did Asuka go out and find Shinji?

Shinji is an Eva pilot. The series has shown us that all of the major players keep tabs on them, because a rogue pilot may become enmeshed in someone else's world-domination scheme (and an AWOL pilot could lead to a failed Angel interception and the extinction of humanity).

Asuka has insufficient courage to kill him on-the-spot (or, if you prefer, sufficient discipline to restrain herself). She can't just leave him to be recaptured by Gendo. She's seen that he can invoke some fairly powerful poo poo (even if his ability to control it is lousy) which may be needed in order to overcome the Adams (whose power completely outclasses her own EVA-02, and even the AAA Wunder). She knows that Misato spared him when she could have killed him, and so perhaps he still has some role to play in Wille's strategic plans. He has saved her life on a few occasions, so her actions here can be seen as discharging an obligation. Finally, she's twice his age and much more mature (or at least "more experienced"); she may feel a simple sense of duty towards him - he is, after all, still a child who has been badly hurt and frightened.

And he's the main character, of course.

# ¿ Jan 11, 2014 10:58

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

Kiran posted:

I just finished the original series and the eoe ending.

What the gently caress?

That's really all I have to say, the show was really good but by the end of it my brain exploded. I'm thinking about watching rebuild, but I don't know, because what the gently caress.

That's okay! The producers understand that NGE wasn't everyone's cup of tea, and they've retooled it for a wider audience _{this is a filthy lie}. The Rebuild series features:

Thrilling battles on land, sea, air, and space!
- Note: said battles are interpersed with, and often contain, copious amount of what the gently caress
Unlocking hidden powers when one of your nakama is threatened so that you can save the day!
- Note: said powers will tend to produce large quantities of what the gently caress
An exciting new character who can explain the backstory while providing new romantic entanglements for our beloved characters!
- Note: said character may not actually choose to explain anything, nor show any romantic inclination whatsoever. Rest assured that this character will, nonetheless, contribute a healthy dose of what the gently caress
New mechs! Did you feel that all of the mechs in the series followed a common template which became boring after a while? Well, we've spiced things up with a whole palette of exotic designs, weapons, and special powers!
- Note: the plot resolution will probably never hinge on the outcome of a climactic 1-on-1 mech duel, batteries will still get depleted whenever it's convenient for the writers, and most of the new mech designs rely heavily on the design principle of "what the gently caress"
Musical training montage! Everyone loves a good montage!
- Note: a typical training montage uses an exciting soundtrack and teaches the protagonist a skill which will help to defeat his enemies. This one uses a soothing soundtrack and involves the protagonist learning to play a musical instrument. waitaminute he already knows how to play the cello and the pacing in this movie is already shot-to-hell why are you spending so much time on this montage what the gently caress

# ¿ Apr 8, 2014 09:18

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

SHISHKABOB posted:

And even though the evangelions run out of power and don't work normally, they do go berserk when the soul inside takes over (or the monster just plain goes crazy).

My understanding is that the Eva unit doesn't go crazy - it simply awakens and lashes out because (A: there's a horrific monster in front of me and it's trying to kill me) and/or (B: I'm surrounded by vivisectionists and there are thousands of bits of metal hammered through my body and there's a voice in my mind that I don't recognize and I'm in horrific pain). Remember: the whole point of the Gehirn-Nerv-Evangelion project was to enslave and weaponize a sapient being.

Here's this living organism which possesses enough power to glass a planet.
- Okay, that's scary. Maybe we should leave it alone.
But! There's some kind of vague threat mentioned in an old Jewish story. Also hubris. Therefore we should harness this power.
- Okay, we've managed to clone a few parts of it via <abomination> and <war crime> and <NSFW>. But if we put the whole thing together it will probably just go on a rampage and kill us all.
Okay then, let's implant stuff into its brain and keep it permanently asleep.
- Ummmm... if it's permanently asleep then how will it defend us from <vague thing mentioned in Dead Sea Scrolls> or help us to achieve <poorly-understood transcendence plan>?
No problem; we'll implant more stuff into its nervous system so that we can access its sensory apparatus and send signals to its muscles, while the creature itself stays dormant. It'll basically sleepwalk through combat deployments.
- Ummm... we're not talking about jamming electrodes into a frog brain; that thing's enormous. The activation potential is, like, 60MV.
Yeah, and we can't risk tapping into the actual bio-electrical system because there's too much risk of accidental brain stimulation. RTGs don't provide enough power, and the brass isn't willing to put a reactor into an urban combat platform. We'll just implant some big LiON battery packs and hope that they don't run dry during combat.
- Okay. We can access the sensorium and force it to move. But the data is very complex and the inverse kinematics are a gigantic bitch. Even our best supercomputer can't puppet-master the thing well enough to succeed in simulated combat, and there isn't actually enough room (or power, or cooling) to fit a supercomputer inside the thing. Remote control isn't an option because a combat-strength AT-field will deflect radio waves.
No problem, we've discovered a <sin against nature> process which allows us to bind a human soul into the organism's core. It should serve as a real-time translation layer which can make the sensorium understandable while also interpreting human motor neuron signals into kinematics which are compatible with our battery-stimulation gear. We just need to stick a human pilot into a cylindrical MRI/EEG chamber filled with amniotic fluid (because REASONS) and get the pilot to wear a dorky headband. The pilot cylinder ought to fit neatly into the cavity where the organism's upper spine used to be. The pilot just needs to mentally bond with the resident soul. There's nothing mushy or philosophical about that - it takes place via a loving numbered checklist!
- Hey. We did all of that, and we put a test pilot inside, but we can never get past step 108 and the organism remains inert. What gives?
Yeeeeeeah... It turns out that human souls retain identity and autonomy even after they've been subjected to the <techno-soulflay-mindrape> procedure. Also, the <techno-soulflay-mindrape> procedure seems to imbue the soul with a completely inexplicable hostility towards Gehirn/Nerv personnel. We'll need to find a pilot that the soul wants to bond with and protect.
- <sarcastically> You mean, like abducting the already-traumatized children of the ladies we soulflayed and forcing them to work for us?
Great idea, Jim! Also, you know too much so you've been volunteered for early retirement _{_{into a lime-filled grave in the desert.}}

# ¿ Apr 30, 2014 06:52

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

SALT CURES HAM posted:

But Asuka's mom killed herself on the other side of the world from NERV, in a way that had nothing to do with Evangelions

Unit-02 was constructed in Germany (NERV 3rd branch), just as Unit-03 came from Massachusetts and Unit-04 from Nevada. These things are supposed to be phenomenally expensive to build and support. The first time that we see Unit-02, it's on a ship being transported to Japan where it will begin its combat assignment.

It's reasonable to assume that they ran a contact experiment on the Unit-02 core early on during its development (5+ years before the TV series began). Kyoko's soul gets eaten, Asuka gets mentally scarred/motivated, Marduk Institute shenanigans occur, Asuka gets trained as a pilot, Unit-02 passes its initial trials, and the deployment schedule gets accelerated because "oh poo poo, angels!" In fact, given that Unit-02 ate only part of Kyoko's soul, we can hypothesize that:

they were applying lessons learned from the Yui incident, but also that
the bosses understood the risks (whether they actually warned Kyoko is less certain)

# ¿ Apr 30, 2014 13:46

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

Robotnik Nudes posted:

Rewatching because of this thread. One kind of grim detail in episode 2: Their teacher does not notice anything during the lecture. When all the students swarm around Shinji he's just staring off into the distance out the window. Because these kids are robot fodder, so their education isn't treated as paramount, or because of the general sense of hopelessness and doom everyone must be living under.

There's a fairly simple explanation - Gendo deliberately recruited the least observant man on Earth to do the job. Can you imagine a normal person in his shoes?

"So let me get this straight - every single one of you has suffered the tragic loss of their mother under mysterious circumstances, followed by a closed-casket funeral?" "Huh. That's a remarkable coincidence. Maybe I'll contact a reporter."
"I understand that you boys sometimes feel the need to punch each other as a way of sealing a rift and becoming friends, but that sort of horseplay is not allowed on school grounds. How about you just shake hands like grownups?"
"Touji and Kensuke, report to the principal's office pronto. Did you think I wouldn't notice that you've been stalking the new girl during school hours and taking dozens of creepshots? And you can consider that camcorder confiscated."
"Rei, it's come to my attention that you're living alone in a condemned apartment block. I've contacted Child Protective Services and they've found a wonderful foster family who can provide you with proper role models and a big backyard and a golden retriever and the unconditional love of a mother and father (as opposed to - just to choose an alternative example at random - a Machiavellian overlord and a steady diet of horse tranquilizers)."
"Ms Misato, I'm requesting an emergency parent-teacher interview. Shinji has been absent from school for several days. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect that he has run away from home."
"Ms Misato, I'm requesting another emergency parent-teacher interview. Shinji has been absent from school for several weeks. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect that he has been dissolved into goop."
"Shinji, Mrs Miller informs me that you've got a real talent for music. I can put you in touch with a private instructor if you'd like to develop your gift. You might have a future in the symphony!"
"Asuka, I realize that it's difficult to adapt to a new country and make new friends. Nonetheless, I'm going to have to ask you to refrain from hitting your classmates. We need to learn to solve our problems with words instead of violence."
"Okay class, today we're going to deal with sex education. In particular, we're going to focus on the fact that you must never do anything sexual to anyone without their consent. And, for the record, a person who is unconscious cannot consent to anything."
"Huh. I guess that the official Second Impact story doesn't really make any sense. It would be wrong of me to pass this information on to impressionable young minds; I'm going to do some research."
"I've called the three of you here to discuss the upcoming exams. I suspect that you're worried about them. Of course, the administration and faculty here understand that your work schedule interferes with your ability to study, so we've made arrangements for special tutoring sessions and deferred examination. We know that it's important for teenagers to enjoy summer vacation with their friends. Go have fun; you'll have plenty of time to catch up later."

# ¿ May 2, 2014 05:37

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

- Apologies; this was in poor taste. Removed -

GulMadred fucked around with this message at 09:53 on May 11, 2014

# ¿ May 11, 2014 06:58

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

Milky Moor posted:

I also can't really think of any sex or sex appeal that is presented throughout Evangelion that isn't creepy, weird, horrific or otherwise has a negative effect on the characters.

Episode 20 - I'm going to speak vaguely to avoid spoilers. Shinji is in hot water, Misato undergoes a seriously traumatic moment at the culmination of the rescue attempt, and things get resolved. Click here if I'm talking gibberish.

Prior to the moment of resolution, we sense that she's been directing a lot of blame at Ritsuko and Gendo (for keeping secrets, and for using less-informed and non-consenting people as puppets) and at herself (for failing to protect her subordinates, for being blind to casualties in her own personal vendetta, for overestimating her control of the situation, and for the whole child-soldier thing). For the past month, she hasn't been able to do anything productive (Operations has been twiddling its thumbs while Engineering runs the show) - she's just been stewing in bitterness and pain. She can't talk to her oldest friend (Ritsuko) because the scenario has created a rift between them, and she doesn't trust herself to confide in Kaji because she's emotionally vulnerable and she doesn't know what might happen.

After the crisis gets resolved, an enormous amount of fear and sorrow is lifted from her; she feels that she's worthy of something greater than suffering. She turns to Kaji for comfort, for reassurance, to be accepted and forgiven. She's still eager to learn his secrets, but she aims to convince him that she's strong enough to bear them - she isn't just cynically pumping him for information. Kaji himself is a man who hates loneliness but who has deliberately isolated himself (triple-agent? quadruple?) in pursuit of truth. He has found his truth, but it brought him no solace. He's seeking a moment of peace with the woman he loves; an echo of his idyllic past to carry with him into oblivion. For the moment, neither one of them is dodging responsibilities, or focusing selfishly on their own pleasure, or thinking of other lovers, or plotting to betray the person lying next to them.

It may be hot sweaty loving in an anonymous motel room, but by Evangelion standards, the whole thing is Lake Woebegone-level wholesome.

_{_{Oops - I guess that Misato is technically dodging her foster-parent duties, since she's leaving a minor home alone in an apartment full of beer. But that's pretty much routine by this point, and Asuka can take care of herself. Also, events in NGE strongly suggest that the Katsuragi family is genetically incapable of hiring a goddamned babysitter.}}

# ¿ May 14, 2014 09:31

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

MechanicalTomPetty posted:

They didn't find Asuka in that building until... either episode 24 or EoE

He's probably refering to Rei, who lived in a trash-filled Soviet-housing-project building in a rundown section of town, which had apparently been condemned and/or evacuated before the TV series began. The place is probably full of tetanus and I wouldn't be surprised to find vermin (or even feral pets!) occupying much of it. And that's where you leave the wunderkind hope-of-mankind who has a frail constitution and poor self-preservation instincts.

Also - remember that that NERV destroyer carried anti-submarine weapons. They pierced a huge artificial cavern, setup some pumps so that it wouldn't completely fill with water, excavated a shallow basin and adjusted the pumping threshold so that it would become a big artificial lake, then brought in a big warship to guard the lake. Despite the fact that they had created the lake and could presumably drain it if it ever became inconvenient, they decided to put weapons on their warship to guard against subsurface threats.

:rolleyes:

Budget priorities :rolleyes:

# ¿ May 27, 2014 00:40

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

SALT CURES HAM posted:

You can get away with a fair bit of gore in a PG-13 as long as it's not human gore.

The violence and gore involving Eva-03 (which was pre-EoE) would be enough to provoke any competent censor. You can argue that "it's not actually human" but the scenes are clearly meant to evoke sympathy in the viewer by presenting recognizable physiology, pain, and injury. In both versions of the fight, we were treated to reaction shots of the supporting characters staring in slack-jawed horror. It's impossible to pretend that the audience is supposed to interpret the scene as just "giant robot saves the day by punching out a giant monster; both combatants suffer some damage in the fight" (cf. Gypsy Danger v Otachi, which was PG-13) Also, the TV version ends with a human child being mutilated.

Although a world which operated on the "human gore" standard would be kinda neat. Every movie opens with a disclaimer:

quote:

This film is a work of fiction. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is coincidental. In fact, it doesn't contain any humans at all - the characters may appear human, but they're actually just very well-crafted androids who think that they're human. Therefore any objectionable content involving them is not grounds for censorship. Neener neener. Please enjoy the following ninety minutes of G-rated decapitations and vigorous buttsex.

# ¿ May 28, 2014 20:27

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

BEARS IN THE BARN posted:

The Mark.XX designation is given to units under 'ownership' of NERV

Reasonable, but too easy. This thread needs more epileptic trees. Therefore, let's try to connect the Mark.XX designations (which are arbitrary as hell) to :siren:

Bible chapters :siren:

. I don't know why we're using spoiler tags for a 2012 release, but I guess I'll follow suit. If someone can confirm that it's not necessary then I'll happily edit them out.

------------------------------------------------

The thematic role of the Evangelions has shifted in Rebuild - they're all about manifestation of individual will. The Nemesis series (Mark.04) is an early suggestion of this fact - they have life and power, yet they are utterly obedient to Gendo's purpose (even to the point of serving as cannon-fodder). They stalk his enemies and guard his possessions, but they have no part to play in any instrumentality scenario. They lack the element of aspiration or "hope" which was present in the TV series Evangelions. They do not reflect an alternative path of human evolution, but rather a dystopian future of gene splicing, cloning vats, cyborg bodies, and thought-control.

Mark 4 includes the parable of the sower. The seed holds the secret of eternal life, yet its fruition is not guaranteed. We are told of three reasons why the crop might fail. There are three subtypes of Nemesis units. Jesus told the parable rather than speaking plainly, because he did not intend his message to be understood by the uninitiated. The Nemesis series is a corruption of the original nature and purpose of the Evangelion program (which is visually reinforced by their chimeric appearance), but this fact is not immediately obvious to the audience (who perceive them as incomprehensible monsters). In Jesus' parable, the fault for the failed crop lies not with the seed itself, but with the sower (who has a duty to cast the seed into fertile ground). TV Gendo showed concern for Unit-01 (for obvious reasons); Rebuild Gendo has much greater power to create life yet treats it with less respect. Even when he brings an artificial god into the world, it is always a means-to-an-end rather than an end-in-itself.

------------------------------------------------

Mark.06 is clearly superior to its prototype, test-type, and production-type brethren. It appears in a deus ex machina moment and effortlessly resolves the crisis. It is indifferent to mundane concerns (e.g. "Umbilical cable? Bitch, I just flew here from the moon under my own power."), its capabilities outclass anything that came before, and its pilot is privy to many secrets. At this point in the story, Nerv had zero combat-ready Eva units and was facing probable tangification in Near Third Impact. They ought to have welcomed Mark.06 as a the answer to their prayers. Mark.06, for its part, had reached its proper place - the focal point of the Angel war and of the various plans for the future of humanity. It ought to have remained there, in the spotlight, and played a major role in subsequent events.

Mark 6 tells us of the story of Jesus' return to Nazareth. He brings a new message and seeks to teach, yet the people doubt his lessons, cast suspicion upon his origins, and even accuse him of blasphemy. In the TV series, Nerv personnel feared Kaworu's otherness and suspected that he was an instrument of Seele's plots. Gendo and Fuyutsuki expressed surprise at the unusual construction techniques used on the Mark.06. Jesus' message is rejected and he is disparaged: �A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.� Mark.06 is not shown to play any role in actually fighting angels; Kaworu explains that its service to the Lilim left it degraded and ruined. Jesus' mission to his people did not bring about an immediate spiritual revival; this work was passed onto his disciples and their successors. Mark.06 holds the Twelfth Angel within itself for fourteen years; neither Mark.06 nor Kaworu play an active role in the apotheosis of Eva-13.

------------------------------------------------

In the TV series, Adam had a major role in the world (e.g. Second Impact) but only an indirect role in driving onscreen events. Lilith was similarly relegated to the background - she had enormous power, but that power needed to be brought into play and guided by the actions of human beings (e.g. defeating angels, gathering artifacts, conspiracizing, and Shinji's decisive role in Instrumentality).

Rebuild 3 changes this - the Angel War is no longer a proxy war between two ostensibly-uninvolved superpowers. The Adams are active participants in the world and their powers can overwhelm anything created by the hands of men. They retain the outward appearance of human artifacts (Evangelion units) but they demonstrate their true nature at climactic moments.

Mark 9 includes the story of the transfiguration. Jesus' divine nature has previously been indicated by miracles and his fulfillment of prophecy. He is attended by disciples who attest to his nature. But such signs are not universally recognized, and many remain in doubt. Mark.09 displays some weird capabilities (e.g. pulling a rocket booster out of its rear end) but the audience is still disoriented by the timeskip - maybe it's just new technology? Mari calls it an Adams vessel, but she's an unwelcome Mary Sue so we can redirect her output straight to /dev/null amirite? Jesus ascends a mountain, shines with divine radiance, is joined by heavenly figures, and the voice of God declares that poo poo Just Got Real.Mark.09 ascends into the sky alongside Eva-13. Admittedly, it plays a complementary role rather than a central one, but its nature is clearly and unambiguously demonstrated. The crew of the AAA Wunder are certainly left without any doubts as to the character of their opponent. The transfiguration of Jesus is not the end of his story. He returns to the world of men and resumes the life of a prophet. He must live and die as a man and then be reborn. Mark.09 gets killed by Eva-02' ... oops. Maybe the biblical parallel thing doesn't work out perfectly. Then again, perhaps we'll get some kind of Mark.16 in the fourth movie.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2014 05:05

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

DrPop posted:

I was kind of disappointed that Rebuild 3 seemed to follow a pretty lovely sci fi trope where there's a time jump and no one has time to update the PoV character on what the gently caress happened over the past n years.

This is a common trope? I'm trying to think of sci-fi scenarios in which the PoV jumps abruptly through time:

Aliens. Ripley comes out of hypersleep; gets debriefed by Burke (including a matter-of-fact "by the way your daughter's dead").
Futurama. Fry comes out of the freezer-doodle; receives exposition between sessions on the Probulator.
Cowboy Bebop. Faye comes out of suspended animation with amnesia; gets medical treatment and extensive re-integration.
The Forever War. Soldiers are informed about technological developments and social upheaval (arising from relativistic time-skips). They experience culture shock when trying to re-integrate into society, but they aren't just left in the dark.
Slaughterhouse-Five. Billy Pilgrim is the only one to experience the time-unstickage; he isn't actively denied information but there's simply no one who can help him. Once the Tralfamadoreans enter the picture, they immediately offer comfort and guidance.
Demolition Man. ~~John Spartan~~ Sylvester Stallone awakens from suspended animation and gets exposition dumped on him. The only detail left unexplained is the tantalizing mystery of the three seashells.
Idiocracy. Not Sure awakens from suspended animation. Information is not deliberately witheld, it's just that anyone smart enough to explain the timeskip is long since dead and most of the information systems have decayed. The narrator explains things to the audience for the sake of dramatic irony.
Red Dwarf. Lister awakens from suspended animation. Holly immediately explains to him, ad nauseum, the fact that everybody is dead.

quote:

What's up with Kaworu saying "I'll promise I'll make you happy this time" at the end of Rebuild 2? Is it potentially teasing that the Evangelion universe is stuck in some Groundhog Day poo poo, and at the end of EoE resulted in everything starting over again? The bloodstreak on the moon (from EoE Lilith/Rei?) makes me think this could be true.

Yep, that's the standard interpretation.

quote:

Also please god shinji become a non-mopey motherfucker for once in this series. ONCE. I don't care if you become a generic action warrior. just loving do something. I had little patience for this emotional inertia poo poo when I was 14 and even less now.

He went all hot-blooded shonen protagonist at the end of Rebuild 2. He did something. It didn't end well and then he had to listen to everyone scream at him to "never loving try to do anything again, you colossal fuckup."

And then he took initiative during Rebuild 3 in the hope of atoning for his past mistakes, and promptly shat the bed. It isn't just authorial fiat forcing him to be a mopey motherfucker; his depression reflects the state of the world (lovely), his self-esteem (non-existent), his sense of abandonment (total), and his ability to relate to the people around him (minimal).

# ¿ Jul 16, 2014 06:39

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

I can't stand dubs except for a few rare comedies where the tacky-sounding voice work enhances the experience.

On the plus side, subbed NGE does include a few scenes of tacky-sounding voice work. Asuka's German conversation with her adopted mother used reasonable phonemes with sloppy vowels and awkward timing, but Kaji's English speech as Bethany base was the audio equivalent of a cut-and-paste ransom note.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2014 00:13

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

NikkolasKing posted:

One of them was so thoroughly brainwashed and manipulated by a man that her....personality....brain thing let him murder her daughter. The part of her "as a woman" did this I take it....yeah that's not going to go anywhere good.

Magi doesn't have a fleet of omnipresent flying nanobots or electrotentacles or ~whatever~ to enforce its will. The choices available to Casper were:

nuke everyone
don't nuke everyone

If you're willing to delve into fanwank apologia, then consider the idea that Ritsuko had root-level access to the supercomputer software, that she could stick electrodes into its brain to influence its behaviour, that she had been working closely with it for years, and that the whole thing is a copy of the most important person in her life. How could Ritsuko's gambit fail? Why would she be unable to predict Casper's choice, and take appropriate precautions?

It failed because Ritsuko admired Naoko-as-scientist and sought approval from Naoko-as-mother but disdained Naoko-as-woman. Naoko's romantic needs, and the relationships resulting from them, diminished her in Ritsuko's eyes. Ritsuko never sought to understand this aspect of her mother and she despised the same aspect of herself. Just as her mother trifurcated her mind, Ritsuko seeks to compartmentalize her relationships: she has her pet cats for emotional comfort, Misato and Kaji for reminiscence, Gendo for physical pleasure, Maya for parental pride. But we never see her turn to any of these people in moments of pain or weakness, confiding her doubts and asking for support. She's dealing with trillion-dollar budgets and fate-of-humanity decisions, but her only visible mechanism for coping with stress is nicotine. She seems jealous of the people around her who can form strong bonds, but she doesn't admit this to them. She sees herself as "ruined" but devotes all of her attention to the parts of her life that aren't actually broken (career, science, leadership). She assumes that she can make her problems go away by ignoring them to death. When she's kidnapped, stripped naked, and interrogated by SEELE, she insists that she feels no humiliation. She consistently refuses to treat herself as a complete person.

Therefore -- She never bothered to install a backdoor for Casper's latent "I love Gendo" tendency because thinking about that subject is unpleasant for her. She didn't simply cut Casper out of the decision-making loop before issuing the self-destruct command, because it was too uncomfortably similar to her own motives for confronting Gendo (and for her prior destruction of the Dummy System).

The scene isn't so much about Naoko-Gendo (which is admittedly a very abusive and hosed-up relationship) but moreso about Naoko-Ritsuko and Ritsuko-Ritsuko.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2014 06:09

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

ImpAtom posted:

Shinji isn't a stupid kid. He knew exactly what he was doing when he stormed out of NERV and left them only with Rei as the one capable pilot. (That he was aware of.)

Shinji knows that Gendo has a few tools at his disposal:

a magic button which switches Unit-01 into methed-up-hobo mode, whereupon it gleefully dismembers everything nearby
a second magic button which remotely shuts down Unit-01, allowing it to be recovered and shoved back into its cage
a classroom full of spare pilot-candidates
a set of trains, planes, and boats which can move EVA units to wherever they're needed
a magic supercomputer which can figure out where EVA units are needed
a stockpile of nuclear weapons, each of which can delay an Angel's progress for several days
a giant positron rifle which can kill an Angel with a single shot, and which can be operated by Unit-00 (once it's repaired) or by a Rei-piloted Unit-01
a space program
lots of cool but ineffectual military stuff
a well-funded paramilitary organization with talented commanders, research staff, and covert operatives

Shinji doesn't know that Unit-01 is going to throw a big sulk. Nobody has shown him the Dead Sea Scrolls and their predictions about Angel power levels. As far as Shinji is concerned, Gendo has sufficient resources to sort this poo poo out.

In fact, Gendo also believes that Gendo has sufficient resources to sort this poo poo out. He allows Shinji to walk away (rather than, say, keeping him in jail in case he's needed later). He tells Ritsuko to delete Shinji's data from the system. Shinji is doing a "gently caress you dad" thing, but painting it as a "let the world burn" thing is unreasonable.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2014 22:03

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# ¿ May 20, 2024 17:04

GulMadred: Oct 20, 2005; I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.

Spiritus Nox posted:

Put less snarkily, I maintain that Third Impact was many orders of magnitude more serious than anything Eva 01 had done up to that point in Rebuild - maybe orders of magnitude greater than anything it's done period

I agree.

EoE conversion of humanity into delicious Tang ≈ 10¹⁷ J
Second impact ≈ 10²⁵ J
Moving the goddamned Moon ≈ 10²⁸ J

# ¿ Sep 17, 2014 00:01

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Neon Genesis Evangelion megathread: Death & Rebirth of the author