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Raze_Larian
Mar 31, 2013

Larian Studios

Darkhold posted:

Any word on how much Dragon Commander will cost on its own when it's released?

According to a press release, $40 during pre-order ($5 off) with a code for another $2 off to be given out during a live Q&A session next on Wednesday April 10th.

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Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Raze_Larian posted:

According to a press release, $40 during pre-order ($5 off) with a code for another $2 off to be given out during a live Q&A session next on Wednesday April 10th.


I'm giving far more thought into getting that $65 tier than I should be; I want to support you all, which is why I keep returning to it.

Would it be a fun game to play if I'm not that great an rts player - like I probably suck monkey nuts at a game like Starcraft, but I DO enjoy Dawn of War 2?

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender
Well, there are different kinds of Dragon setups to suit different playstyles. Some Dragon setups are suited for offense and destroying enemy units, which would probably be good for a weaker RTS player. Other Dragon setups are good at supporting and healing your own units/structures, another is good for sabotaging enemy units and structures, and one is merely okay at all of those, but not good at any one in particular.


Here's an interview from E3 2012 about Original Sin that I don't think I've seen before. The rest of the demo is also worth watching.

RPG Gamer.com - Original Sin E3 2012 Interview (added 04/06)

EDIT:

From *shudder* RPGCodex:

quote:

Larian is suffering from the classic KS malady of "need X dollars, ask for two thirds of that," so I don't think they are entirely pleased.

No. We went for 400K and had no idea how we would do. Some even thought it was too high, others thought it was too low. We had discussions about "what if we don't make it". 400K was something that we thought we could get to, given sales figures of Divinity titles in the first couple of weeks.

Then why are NPC schedules at $1M??? :smith:

Because we want to do it right. We didn't come to KS to get schedules in the game. We came to KS to get more life / things to do / more choice and consequence / extra quests / "density" in the game. If people want schedules, we cannot do that on top of all that.

We could do it the half-rear end way: NPC is on market, NPC goes to bed. No matter where he is, or what he's doing, he always has the same dialogue. Still takes a bit of scripting, but it's not really cool.

If you go to sleep, you lock your house. If I wake you up in the middle of the night cause I lockpicked your door, you're not gonna go "oh hello".

Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Apr 7, 2013

Mung Dynasty
Jul 19, 2003

Why do the peasants slave while the emperor gets to eat all the mung?!
I really loved Divinity II and like what little I've played so far of Divine Divinity. Larian seems to have a great sense of humor and the quests in both games are really fun. There's a few other RPGs out there that get praised for having multiple solutions to quests, but I think these games really nail making it feel natural.

Been hyped for this game ever since it was announced. I think it's a shame that it'll be turn-based rather than an ARPG, but that's personal preference. Game will own.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Mung Dynasty posted:

Been hyped for this game ever since it was announced. I think it's a shame that it'll be turn-based rather than an ARPG, but that's personal preference. Game will own.

I'm the opposite. That being said, I've pledged to kickstart Grim Dawn which is as arpg as they come. I really like the idea of having this be turn based - it lets you experiment a lot more with multiple strategies and doesn't eventually end up being a 'spam lightning bolt/fireball' (or powercleave) type of click fest.

Divinity being turn based appeals to me more than if it were an arpg clicky thing.

Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011



As I said earlier in the thread, I was a little apprehensive about the turn-based combat, since it can sometimes break up the flow of the game to have your party suddenly get thrust into ~turn-based mode~. Especially if the animations take too long (looking at you, Anachronox :argh:). But in this case, it seems to be very smoothly integrated with the rest of the game, and I'm looking forward to feeling like a tactical genius because I electrocuted someone standing in a puddle.

Also: I think there might be an update later today. Not entirely sure. Stay tuned.

Darkhold
Feb 19, 2011

No Heart❤️
No Soul👻
No Service🙅
I think the 650k is pretty much a given at this point but I'm pretty worried about the 800k one. There really needs to be an uptick as player companion quests really add to the life of a game for me. It's nice that the Stronghold is so low after Torment put it in the highest tier.

Can't say I care too much about day/night and weather cycles. I mean they can be fun and all but I don't really notice when they're not in a game. Also having the weather affect your abilities could go either way. It'd be neat to have a rainy day help you cast your ice/lightening spells but really crap if you had to work around certain weather patterns because they gave enemies too big of a bonus or something.

chiefnewo
May 21, 2007

Air is lava! posted:

Ah okay, that makes a lot of sense acutally.
So the developers basically act as a middleman. You send them the money directly, so they can just shift it into the kickstarter, from where they get it back eventually. And since you wont get the donation back either way, it wont cause any problems.
Well I just hope it hits the mark soon, so they can offer this service.

Just to clear this up for you, Paypal donations have nothing to do with Kickstarter. Any money you donate via Paypal goes directly to the developers. It doesn't show up on the Kickstarter page pledge total at all. Because you are charged straight away with Paypal, most projects wait until they are definitely at their goal on Kickstarter before opening up Paypal to make sure they don't have to refund a bunch of money to people if the Kickstarter falls through.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender
Update #8: 90% Funding!, More Single-player party control info

  • Yes, we are working on the "European" distribution details.
  • Yes, Paypal will be available as soon as we reach our goal. It's ready. We just need to upload the page. The pledges via Paypal will count along for our stretchgoals.
  • Yes, the reward tier descriptions are outdated. You should refer to the digital matrix or the physical matrix and read in detail what all the rewards are exactly in update 4
  • Earlier this week, Swen had a video interview with Matt Barton and that Matt Chat episode should be online soon, just keep an eye on his Youtube channel
  • If you are new here, please do read all previous updates linked to on the main page. Our videos are also always available at our Youtube channel
  • Updated Referral Statistics


Single Player Campaign, Drop In/Out Multiplayer:

Party-based

You start the game with two avatars in your party. Let's call them Roderick and Scarlett for now. Obviously when starting the game you can name and customize them. And yes, you can also play this game with two men or two women, it doesn't always have to be man/woman.

Roderick and Scarlett are the true heroes of this tale, and they'll always be in your party, but should you feel the need for reinforcements, you can recruit two extra party members.


Split up

Except in a few special circumstances, your party doesn't need to stay together. Sometimes the game will ask you to gather your party first, usually only when going from zone to zone, but our zones are very big (think Divine Divinity big).

(That means this big, and this doesn't even show the entire map)




But in one zone, including its houses, cellars, and dungeons, it means that you can control Scarlett to explore an underground cave while Roderick buys some fresh fish on the market. (Each hero's henchman will follow his master.)


For example

Because Divinity: Original Sin features a turn-based combat system, this can lead to pretty interesting situations.

For instance: you switch to Scarlett, and in the cave, she encounters a friendly community of unfortunate ghosts, and has lengthy conversations with them, trying to understand why their souls aren't floating towards the Hall Of Echoes.

You switch to Roderick and, shopping around, realize he doesn't have enough gold to pay for his fish. So you try your hand at stealing. Lacking the necessary skills and talents for conducting successful theft, another shopper catches Roderick in the act and calls for the guards. Roderick is a bit short of temper and he's also on a mission to save Rivellon: there's no way he's going to put up with such foolery as going to jail, so he resists arrest and draws his sword.

Turn-based combat starts on the market, and several guards, as well as some market-goers that feel up to it, join the fight. Roderick has a high initiative, and in your first turn, you manage to conjure an earth elemental to even the odds a bit before any of the guards can even make their move. But there are a lot of guards...


Oops. Now what?

At this moment, you could decide that Roderick needs help from Scarlett, and switch to Scarlett. You could guide her out of the black cove, accross the beach, over the hills and into Cyseal. Then when she would get close enough to the fight, she would automatically become part of combat.Or, you could switch to Scarlett to continue exploring the cave.

While you switch to Scarlett and control her, Roderick and his combat will still be "paused in his turn", awaiting your commands.

Let's keep Roderick stuck in time for a while, and just keep on exploring. As Scarlett ventures deeper into the cave, she stumbles upon a whole bunch of angry undead who attack you on sight. (Why are the ghosts friendly? Why are these guys unfriendly? If only you had talked to more ghosts...)


1.21 Gigawatts if you think about it

This means that now we have a situation in which both Roderick and Scarlett are in different turn-based combat situations at different locations in the world. You can do these fights one after the other, or you can jump from fight to fight by just clicking on their avatar icons (or using shortcut keys).

And should you ever manage to get the enemies from both fights close enough to one another, then the two combats would merge into one big combat.


The Dual-dialogue system

Scarlett for instance tries to REASON with Roderick whereas Roderick decides that he might give INTIMIDATION a go. Not only do the character's stats come in play, the context of the disagreement also plays in along. In this particular situation, reasoning works better, and Scarlett ends up winning the discussion. (In the background, the game rolled against strength, persuasion and intelligence stats to decide who would win, also taking into account the nature of the situation. The same system is used when talking to NPCs, and trying to change their minds: for instance, a certain NPC may not be easy to intimidate, but may very susceptible to CHARM.)


Personal traits and talents

Now what happens next depends on us making the "personal traits and talents" stretchgoal in our Kickstarter campaign, but let's be optimistic and imagine that we do. The following example is purely illustrative, so don't take it as an example that will be in the game. We hope it will be of course.

Because of the choices Scarlett and Roderick made, Scarlett gains a point in "Empathy" whereas Roderick gains a point in "Righteousness". Since this is not the first time Roderick went for the "Righteous" answer, the game decides it is time to award Roderick the "Righteous" personality trait, which means that from now on demons and other infernal scum will not be able to affect Roderick's mind because of the strength of his principles, i.e. his resistance to mind-control increases.

Had Scarlett and Roderick agreed, and if this would be the nth time that they agreed, then they might actually have gained a point in "party spirit", which would boost the bonuses they'd receive when fighting together instead of alone

Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Apr 7, 2013

Lakitu7
Jul 10, 2001

Watch for spinys
After playing Divine Divinity for a few days I think I'm definitely sold on the $65 tier. I really hope we make it to at least $650 because traits and talents seems like sort of a basic thing that'd feel missing if not here. I like that it's turn-based because I'm burning out on Diablolikes but King's Bounty series and Xcom have been reminding me how much I miss tactics games.

But a question about Divine Divinity: Could someone explain stealing? Like if nobody's in the room, there's no consequences to taking anything, ever? Is there a hidden "someone owns this" flag? Is there a "stolen item" flag that influences what you can do with it later? I'm playing a good-guy character, as I tend to do, but it seems like the game is possibly balanced around the idea that anything laying unattended is all yours and, by video game logic, it's only "owned"/stealing if somebody can see it?

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender
I think it's only stealing if someone sees you take it.

If you want, save, steal something without getting seen, then sell it back to the owner. If I remember right, there's an exploit. It's only counted a stealing if you move it into your inventory, so if you bring in a container and drop that, open it up, then move the stolen item into the container, you can walk out with the container right in front of the shopkeeper. (That's not going to work in OS, moving an item is considered a steal attempt.)

Rookersh
Aug 19, 2010

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

I think it's only stealing if someone sees you take it.

If you want, save, steal something without getting seen, then sell it back to the owner. If I remember right, there's an exploit. It's only counted a stealing if you move it into your inventory, so if you bring in a container and drop that, open it up, then move the stolen item into the container, you can walk out with the container right in front of the shopkeeper. (That's not going to work in OS, moving an item is considered a steal attempt.)

Nah, the first thing I always do in Divine Divinity is have the first merchant go to the other room to show me the herb he wants, then rob him blind/resell everything back to him.

Maybe later merchants aren't as stupid, but by the time I reached them I had all of the cash.

theblackw0lf
Apr 15, 2003

"...creating a vision of the sort of society you want to have in miniature"

Darkhold posted:

I think the 650k is pretty much a given at this point but I'm pretty worried about the 800k one. There really needs to be an uptick as player companion quests really add to the life of a game for me. It's nice that the Stronghold is so low after Torment put it in the highest tier.

Can't say I care too much about day/night and weather cycles. I mean they can be fun and all but I don't really notice when they're not in a game. Also having the weather affect your abilities could go either way. It'd be neat to have a rainy day help you cast your ice/lightening spells but really crap if you had to work around certain weather patterns because they gave enemies too big of a bonus or something.

It's averaging near $20,000 even on a weekend. If it keeps that pace it'll be at around $730,000 at the end without any typical final boost. With the boost it should be able to clear it

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

theblackw0lf posted:

It's averaging near $20,000 even on a weekend. If it keeps that pace it'll be at around $730,000 at the end without any typical final boost. With the boost it should be able to clear it

As dickish as it may be, I (hyperbole::'really hope') they don't clear the $1 mil stretch goal.

It's a whole lot of man hours to implement day/night cycles and going to only seriously matter for the whiniest of the < .1%. I'm sure it's cool to look at and all, but in my gaming experience I've yet to see what they're describing additively impact a videogame.

875k - 900k would be my ideal amount given to Larian.

All that being said, I'll probably bump up to the 65$ tier in a few days because I gotta respect these guys.

For thievery, I think it'd be kinda cool to have shopkeepers, whom you steal from, become suspicious if you sell back their own stolen products - they might recognize some unique pieces. A suspicious shopkeep might raise prices at their store, and not let you out of their sight barring a pretty hefty sneak skill. You might be able to apologize and bribe them, or enter into an exclusive trade agreement with them or something to get them to lower their prices. I don't know. Might only be interesting on paper.

Drifter fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Apr 7, 2013

Raze_Larian
Mar 31, 2013

Larian Studios

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

If I remember right, there's an exploit. It's only counted a stealing if you move it into your inventory, so if you bring in a container and drop that, open it up, then move the stolen item into the container, you can walk out with the container right in front of the shopkeeper.

You need to make sure you are alone when you remove the item from the container, though, since that will be considered stealing. Once an item is in your inventory, though, you are free and clear; there are no hidden flags or later gameplay consequences (well, other than the exploit making stealing so easy it becomes boring).


Drifter posted:

For thievery, I think it'd be kinda cool to have shopkeepers, whom you steal from, become suspicious if you sell back their own stolen products - they might recognize some unique pieces.

I'm not sure if it it is actually in the game, but there was an example given already about looting a lute from an orc (IIRC) and his brother recognizing it in your inventory and wanting to know how you got it.

Raze_Larian fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Apr 7, 2013

Darkhold
Feb 19, 2011

No Heart❤️
No Soul👻
No Service🙅

Drifter posted:

As dickish as it may be, I (hyperbole::'really hope') they don't clear the $1 mil stretch goal.
During Project: Eternity I was pretty bummed about the second big city stretch goal. I find multi-zone huge cities pretty dull usually and worried about balancing for that would drag the rest of the game down. One big city? Great change of pace. Second big city? I hope it's somehow really unique.

It does sound like they have interesting ideas about their weather cycle. Hopefully if they do hit that goal they blow way past it and have the resources to make it really useful and balanced.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Raze_Larian posted:

I'm not sure if it it is actually in the game, but there was an example given already about looting a lute from an orc (IIRC) and his brother recognizing it in your inventory and wanting to know how you got it.

Yeah, I remember reading about that somewhere. I thought it was neat. That sounded like a one off quest, however. I want it systemically realized. :colbert:

Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011



Drifter posted:

As dickish as it may be, I (hyperbole::'really hope') they don't clear the $1 mil stretch goal.

It's a whole lot of man hours to implement day/night cycles and going to only seriously matter for the whiniest of the < .1%. I'm sure it's cool to look at and all, but in my gaming experience I've yet to see what they're describing additively impact a videogame.

It depends on how they integrate it with the mechanics and the quests. If it's like Oblivion where you had to wait another 23 hours if you weren't in the right place at the right time, then I'm not much of a fan either.

Rivensteel
Mar 30, 2010
Great update from Larian, Raze. I really like the way drop-in multiplayer is being handled and the thoughtfulness in general that is being put into the game systems. You convinced me to bump up to the Name a Pet tier!

Just to be totally clear, there's a boxed copy for that reward tier as well as a digital copy I can gift away?

Unrelated question: is it at all possible to implement a Name a Pet add-on so I can have two named pets at once? That would be, as they say, :krad:

Lakitu7
Jul 10, 2001

Watch for spinys
Okay, thanks for the help, folks! I guess too much Skyrim and New Vegas have me expecting "stolen" flags everywhere.

After throwing another few hours into Divine, I've officially pushed the kickstarter button, as well. It's hard to beat $65 for three quality games at release. And Larian confirming that it was initially a mistake, but honoring it anyway, just gives me more reason to support them!

CrookedB
Jun 27, 2011

Stupid newbee
There's a new video interview with Swen Vincke at Matt Chat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIpfydUsaNw. It's pretty good.

Darkhold
Feb 19, 2011

No Heart❤️
No Soul👻
No Service🙅

CrookedB posted:

There's a new video interview with Swen Vincke at Matt Chat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIpfydUsaNw. It's pretty good.
A youtube interviewer that doesn't make me want to punch them in the face repeatedly and actually asking interesting questions I didn't think such a thing existed.

It is funny there's a bit of a language barrier going on. It's clear that often Swen is answering what he thought Matt was asking and it's slightly off. Hearing this guy talking about all the things he wants in the game makes it sound far more dynamic than anything I've ever played. Hopefully they can pull it off properly.

Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011



Wow, a full-hour interview. I didn't listen to all of it, but what I heard was certainly interesting. I did think it was funny that he ended up mentioning the Codex and even some of the specific people on there that criticize him (though most seem to like D:OS). Larian, you're an established company producing what looks to be an impressive RPG with high production values. You don't have to do that. There is such a thing as being too close to your customers. It's adorable though, it just makes me want to throw more money at them.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender
Can you rotate the camera?

quote:

at the moment you cannot rotate the camera (you can zoom in/out though). Basically because a lot of our levels are build specifically for the fixed view direction. We have put a lot of effort in creating nice vistas in our regions, which we wouldn't want you to miss out on .
D:oS might actually be a great game to play in 3D, since the levels are very "layered". There is a lot of stuff going on close to the camera as well as far away. Anyway, it's on my nice-to-have list to add stereoscopic rendering the our engine
- Bert. (from somewhere in the Kickstarter comments.)



For those who didn't listen, here's the Matt Chat summary. (I hope you appreciate this. My wrists are hurting now.)

  • (9:30) Quests aren’t going to hand-hold you through them. There isn’t going to be a “Quest Completed!” pop-up. Instead, your journal will have little parts of information, like “we found a book by a dead guy that talks about lying statues”, later if you talk to a statue, you might find “we met a statue, It might be one of the lying statues from the book”, and if you deal with the statue somehow, it’ll just be a thing, and you may not even realize that it was a quest.
  • (13 min) In that demonstration battle on the 10-minute kickstarter video, they died three times. That’s one reason why they never showed the conclusion to that battle!
  • (22 min) The main characters relationship is not specifically a love story. You can certainly take it in that direction if you wish, though. Their relationship is defined by two different axes: Affection and Affinity. Affection is how much they like each other, Affinity is how well they agree with each other on moral dilemmas. So they might hate each other, but work well. You aren’t going to accidentally end up as your friend’s gay lover, it’ll be a conscious choice if you go for that.
  • (23:30) The main characters are Source Hunters, and one of the perks they get form being trained in that area is that they can talk to animals.
  • (24 min) No sheep henchmen at the moment. They are thinking about adding weresheep in the game, but you cannot have a deep meaningful personal relationship with sheep yet. You will have to make a tough moral decision about the sheep at some point in the game. And the rabbits. And a cow.
  • (25 min) I think there may be multiple different ways to try and get your way in a dialogue (Charm/Reason/Intimidate), instead of the current “I agree/I disagree” system. I’m not sure. The context of the situation is also important. I think that for example, the “dead body on the beach” would probably be a Charm or Reasoning situation, and Indimidation would have a penalty.
  • (27 min) No minigames. Lockpicking will be item based and dexterity based.
  • (28 min) The Source (elemental) magic is not just for mages casting spells. It also gives you Source-based warrior and Survivor skills
  • (28:40) The editor is not about making it easy for a novice, it’s more of a tool to do powerful things. They’ve used that technology (or parts of it) for over a decade to make their games, and that’s why as a small team they have been able to make such big games.
  • (30 min) They’ll integrate the modding scene with Steamworks, and there will be another TBD thing to centralize mods for those who don’t use Steam. If the community picks it up, Larian will support the hell out of it.
  • (31 min) “Have you thought of adding any DRM to this?” No.
  • (32:20) Larian admits that some of the reward tiers for the Kickstarter may not be cost-effective for them.
  • (33:30) What’s the minimum pledge tier for fans to get the full experience? Just the $25 for the base game, although it does play well with a friend ($40 for the duo-copy pack).
  • (35 min) If Divinity 2: Ego Draconis had been a PC game, it would have been released a year earlier and in much better shape. Development for Xbox lead to a lot of compromise just trying to finish the production.
  • (36:10) Beyond Divinity was bad, it was a game they company made just to survive. They never got a dollar of royalties from Divine Divinity. They were only able to get a deal to make Divinity 2 because they were going to do it for Xbox. If they asked to do it for PC only, the game wouldn’t have happened.
  • (37:50) "Why did you end Ego Draconis the way you did?" (I’m going to save my fingers from typing and just link to that spot in my LP. Watch the videos for the actual experience, not the text I added.)

    - It goes back to Divine Divinity. They decided not to cut the game at the end of the Council of Seven sequence and instead went ahead and added a new “Wastelands” zone, despite warnings they’d never finish it. (Spoiler alert: It was a huge combat zone with no quests.) The publisher wanted them to show variety in the environments. “If there is not a screenshot with orange stuff, we’ll sue you.”

    - For Divinity 2, Swen figured it would be better to stop with a cliffhanger and cut hard, instead of making another weak ending area.

  • (41:40) Dragon Commander is going to take a lot of people by surprise. The leader writer and animator spend a month in London recording dialogue – more dialogue than they’ve ever done before (Divinity 2 had like 9 hours of dialogue, and it felt like more). That’s just to cater for the choice and consequence in the game. Dragon Commander is probably the most complex game they’ve ever made from a gameplay point of view.
  • (43:50) “What would you need to personally hear or see about Original Sin to get you to buy it?”
    If you invest in it now, you’ll have more fun in a couple of months. If you’re planning on buying it anyway, buy it now and get it better later. It’s future profits from the game being invested into the game before it’s released. They’re not taking your money for an already funded game, they’re taking your money and giving you a much better game (at a discounted price!). They’re not pushing Original Sin as far as it could go because they haven’t enough resources, not enough time, not enough budget.
  • (48 min) Final thoughts: Other non-human playable races is a huge, impossibly high stretch goal, because it would be so much work, because of how the game reacts to how the players are. If you wanted to play as an orc, they’d have to cater for that all over the dialogue lines in the entire game.

    - He’s not keen on full voice acting, because there are more tangible gameplay things that can be added instead for the same price or cheaper.

    - They hope to get enough for the Perks stretch goal (650,000), and do things like have synergy bonuses if the party affinity go up if they perform combos with each other, or maybe solo bonuses if they don’t work well together.

    - In Dragon Commander, there is an extraordinarily complex depth to your generals/councillors/princesses, because of the way that game was specifically constructed with that in mind. You couldn’t do that for Original Sin at this point, but at the 800,000 stretch goal, they hope to add more depth to party interaction and give the henchmen more personality and story presence, with branching choice and consequence based on how you treat them. Ideally, tying that into the players social stats and perks as well.

    - It’s a bit tough to get professional authors in at this part of the development. They’ve worked with a bunch before, but it’s tough it they’ve never done videogame work.
  • (55:10) The game would work well on the console with a controller, but that was killed early in development. Maybe as another stretch goal in Kickstarter, but they probably would react poorly to that idea.

Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Apr 8, 2013

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat
Thanks, Stabbey. That's a lot of work.

C'mon, Larian, don't let me down!!!

Darkhold
Feb 19, 2011

No Heart❤️
No Soul👻
No Service🙅
I just don't know how to feel about the 'no quests' thing. I know a lot of people really like that free form explore the world gameplay but I'm very objective orientated. I can see that also really hurting them in reviews if it's not something that's just so elegantly done that it confuses people.

Megazver
Jan 13, 2006

Darkhold posted:

I just don't know how to feel about the 'no quests' thing. I know a lot of people really like that free form explore the world gameplay but I'm very objective orientated. I can see that also really hurting them in reviews if it's not something that's just so elegantly done that it confuses people.

He said there's still a journal where everything interesting pops up, you just won't have a WOW-esque quest tracker.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender

Darkhold posted:

I just don't know how to feel about the 'no quests' thing. I know a lot of people really like that free form explore the world gameplay but I'm very objective orientated. I can see that also really hurting them in reviews if it's not something that's just so elegantly done that it confuses people.

He just said that it'll work like the Divine Divinity one. That one was pretty useful and organized into quests, even though they didn't have official quest titles and they were freeform without a lot of direction, just bits that you find. There will also be a conversation log like Divine Divinity's.

When I heard that part of the Matt Chat interview, I actually stopped and started to write up an example of how one of those freeform quests in Divine Divinity worked. Watch this space and I'll edit it in in a few minutes:

EDIT: The full walkthrough of a quest is below, here are visual examples of the Divine Divinity quest log:




Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Apr 8, 2013

Darkhold
Feb 19, 2011

No Heart❤️
No Soul👻
No Service🙅

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

He just said that it'll work like the Divine Divinity one. That one was pretty useful and organized into quests, even though they didn't have official quest titles and they were freeform without a lot of direction, just bits that you find. When I heard that part of the Matt Chat interview, I actually stopped and started to write up an example of how one of those freeform quests in Divine Divinity worked. Watch this space and I'll edit it in in a few minutes:
I'll await your explanation then because I must have totally misunderstood what he was talking about. It sounded like you'd get a series of notes about the world with the 'quest' just kinda hidden in there and even if you resolved it you weren't really told that you were through with that particular puzzle/part.

Also thanks for the effort post. I watched the whole interview but it's nice to have a quick summary to look at.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender
Larian has done that kind of questing system before in Divine Divinity. Here’s an example of how a quest in Divine Divinity is more fluid and less structured than the normal kind. This is the “Poisoned Harvest / Plague” linked quests. I’m using spoilers for people who may be playing Divine Divinity at the moment.

You can wander the farmlands and visit houses, and in one of them is farmer Hugh (an ex-tailor/gigolo) and he mentions a strange blight affecting all the farmers crops. You ask if he has any suspicions, and he is shocked at your suggestion that someone might be deliberately poisoning the crops while the dukedom is at war with the orcs.



Nothing much comes of that unless further random explorations take you to a cave full of poison and an orc. He drops a key, but you have no idea what it goes to. You have to explore some more. In someone’s basement you find the room that the key unlocks, and it’s got more poison barrels in it.

You confront the owner and he says that it’s being rented by Doctor Elrath. He’s trying to cure a plague that’s affected the poor quarter. (That's a separate quest on its own.) You talk to Elrath and he says the key was stolen a while ago. Then it’s back to exploring some more.

This next part is optional. By this point, you’re probably suspicious of the doctor and interested in checking out the quarantined plague village. You have to break in through the back gate. Inside there are three sick people (and you get an optional quest to cure them). There used to be four but one says that Elrath told her that the fourth wasn’t drinking enough water and he “suffocated in his sleep from the fever”. In a bush near the well are a few empty flasks that your character notes as “smelling funny.”

So you break into the house of Elrath, solve a door puzzle to reach the back room and cellar but there’s nothing there. Until you notice the stack of boxes piled up against a wall. Move them, and the wall is walk-through. In the back room you find 2 cure potions for the sick people, and a note chastising Elrath for poisoning the poor quarter instead of the Barracks well like he was supposed to, signed by “I”. You leave turn Elrath in to the authorities.

That’s how that quest ends. At like every stage, you can go back and tell Hugh what you’ve found, if you’re stuck, but I never even noticed you could do that until recently. You can even report to him after finding the stash in someone’s house, but before talking to the owner, even though that’s a much longer walk.

If you want, you can go use the potions you found to cure two of the three people, but that’s not required and is only marked in your journal. There’s nothing you can do about the information suggesting that the real target was the barracks, that’s just foreshadowing and subtle explanations for some things, showing that there's a plot against the kingdom


***********

You're never directed to Hugh, there's no quest marker at all pointing to the orc. You solve this quest by exploring the world, taking your own initiative and finding little bits a little on your own. The order I did that in is just the logical order. I think there may be ways to shortcut parts of that. There are little optional bits that help you find some things. In fact, there's a special encounter a little bit south-west of the quarantined village that also hints at where you should go.

Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Apr 8, 2013

Jack's Flow
Jun 6, 2003

Life, friends, is boring
This thread makes me very happy. I thought I was insane for thinking Divinity 2 was one of the best RPGs in a long time, but now all of the Divnity fans are coming out of the woodwork.



Thanks for the chat summary, Stabbey.

Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011



Darkhold posted:

I'll await your explanation then because I must have totally misunderstood what he was talking about. It sounded like you'd get a series of notes about the world with the 'quest' just kinda hidden in there and even if you resolved it you weren't really told that you were through with that particular puzzle/part.

Well, I can kind of understand your concerns. I mean, not that I necessarily want a traditional quest log, let alone quest markers, but I do like clarity and oversight. However, I'm fine with a more fluid quest structure and figuring things out on my own in D:OS as long as the available information is still at least sorted by topic/'quest', and as long as there's an indication that I'm more or less finished with a particular chain of events.

Jack's Flow posted:

This thread makes me very happy. I thought I was insane for thinking Divinity 2 was one of the best RPGs in a long time, but now all of the Divnity fans are coming out of the woodwork.

Sadly, today has been slow so far:



Hope it picks up. Oh, and to goons that haven't pledged yet and would like to: make sure to get referred via the forum. All things considered, SA is doing pretty good in the referral statistics, being directly responsible for more than $5000 in pledges.

Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Apr 8, 2013

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender
Update #9 - Almost there

Video, continuing the creation of the butcher quest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-qp_FcAa6w


Come on people, we still haven't even hit the minimum goal!

Fugue Stater
Oct 17, 2012
I know Larian don't have the high profile of Obsidian or InXile, but it's kinda bumming me out that Original Sin may be the most revolutionary of the 3 in terms of gameplay mechanics (true 2 player co-op system including dialogue built from the ground up in a non-MMO RPG has never really been seen, right?), but it's getting the least funding.

I really hope they get a big ending bump - I'd love to see what they could do with say, $2 million. Their games have clearly have had a lot of love and personality put into them, they deserve a chance like this.

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

I initially pledged 25 bucks but I upped it to the 65 tier for Dragon Commander package. I really really liked Divinity 2, the only thing that soured me in that game was its ending, but that only lasted until the Dragon Knight Saga came out and things were back to being great again.

SaltyJesus
Jun 2, 2011

Arf!
Despite the loveably fumbled start :3: I think D:OS can snag quite a few of the currently posted stretch goals if not all. It's probably best not to spam Reddit and other link aggregators too much so they don't get tired of hearing about it before the final push (this obviously doesn't mean don't post any updates). We need Larian to really be on the ball when it comes to self-promotion in the final three to four days.

Also I don't see why people are so dismissive of the weather/day cycle stretch goal, it's not just a cosmetic change. If you pay attention it says it will affect creature behavior and spells; so (talking out of my rear end here) if it's raining lightning/fire spells work better/worse respectively, if it's night your light-based spells will have a blinding effect etc. It brings a whole new level of environment interactivity to the game which I think is really cool and not at all a final stretch goal to scoff at.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

SaltyJesus posted:

:words:
Also I don't see why people are so dismissive of the weather/day cycle stretch goal, it's not just a cosmetic change. If you pay attention it says it will affect creature behavior and spells; so (talking out of my rear end here) if it's raining lightning/fire spells work better/worse respectively, if it's night your light-based spells will have a blinding effect etc. It brings a whole new level of environment interactivity to the game which I think is really cool and not at all a final stretch goal to scoff at.

I totally respect your opinion and your interest in those things. While it's not important to me I certainly don't think it would ruin my enjoyment were it implemented - so don't think I'm vehemently opposed or anything. I can see where it'd be cool, but in my experience it really just adds a certain...boring routine to it all.

In my mind a day/night cycle means that you have to wait for *this* to happen and then you have to wait for *that* to happen, instead of having the agency to cause it yourself. Divinity:DoS has a cool quest they showed off where you were able to cause sets of guards to argue with each other - I don't know how, shenanigans may have been involved - so you could sneak into the building/rooms they had been guarding while they were distracted by each other. But if I had to *wait*(rest 11 hours) for evening until they went to bed? It's no fun to me when a game tells me that I'm gated by time - for a limited time -, instead of preparation.

For instance if you know you'll be fighting robbers you might want to wait until the evening to better sneak up on them and surprise attack the group; maybe the darkness would reduce everyone's attack power/percentage or it could increase initiative or something - first strike. But you may as well just be able to craft a potion or spell to grant those, if it means being forced to *wait* otherwise.

I think one of my biggest issues with cycles is that most games, at night, reduce visibility of the screen to the point where it's really not fun for me to squint and try to make out what's happening or where I'm going. That's just dumb.

Larian seems like they'd be taking it down a slightly more effectual path, but all in all it doesn't serve as a goal for me to be excited about.

Also, what you're describing with regards to environmental interactivity for the most part exists now, mostly as a player controlled strategy. Ice spells can be melted down into water, which, in puddle form, amplifies electrical spells and, in god dammit I'm wet these clothes are going to be ruined form, reduces fire spells. Barrels can explode or gush forth water if you break them.

SaltyJesus
Jun 2, 2011

Arf!
Yeah OK, I see your point. From a game design perspective what you said is a totally valid concern (tho I am sure Larian would find an awesome way to implement it!). I'm also OK with keeping the cool interactions, either with NPCs or between spells, completely within the player's power.

Drifter posted:

Also, what you're describing with regards to environmental interactivity for the most part exists now

I'm aware of this. I was just saying because some people were going "pffft a million for NPC cycles" so I was just pointing out it's a little more than that.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

SaltyJesus posted:

Yeah OK, I see your point. From a game design perspective what you said is a totally valid concern (tho I am sure Larian would find an awesome way to implement it!). I'm also OK with keeping the cool interactions, either with NPCs or between spells, completely within the player's power.


I'm aware of this. I was just saying because some people were going "pffft a million for NPC cycles" so I was just pointing out it's a little more than that.

Haha, I get you. I think people see the Cool Million as the monetary goal and forget that it's probably the difference between tiers for that one, at most. And I like how Larian organized the stretch goals. The goal that least impacts the gameplay/story is the one that's added last.

:negative:Fund, drat you!!

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Dakammer
Apr 24, 2004
- Forum Bass Wizard -
Signed up for my $65 share. I only played Divinity 2, but it was more than enough for me to have faith that Larian will pull through brilliantly with these two. Plus, two full/real games for $65 is a steal in my book. Hopefully they'll meet their goals with room to spare.

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