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Love the thread title. What fknlo said about Sequestration was pretty much dead on in regards to why I said the sequestration thing is going to be a cluster. Not only are airports shutting down, but manning is already CRAP in most centers, afaik, so it will only get worse on this thing kicks in. Because of that planes are going to sit on the ground longer, or hold in the air more. The airlines WILL be going after congress' rear end about all the money they are costing them. Places like ATL should be interesting, especially since Delta pretty much "owns" the place. People are definitely going to be calling in "sick" also, so they don't have to deal with the complete charlie foxtrot working three sectors combined, no d-side, and 50 tracks. I expect more than a handful of people eligible to retire to drop their paperwork after the first week of this crap to boot. Seriously, all you guys flying...be patient if you are trying to get anywhere during all this. Be safe too. I'm legit concerned about that one. Please don't hesitate to verify a clearance.
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Apr 1, 2013 23:39
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I'm glad to hear that. I just work with a few people that say when they were first learning to fly they were hesitant to verify a clearance in fear of seeming stupid. Stupid, or dead? Tough choice!
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Apr 2, 2013 01:22
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The Slaughter posted:Sometimes ATC gets that annoyed tone and I hate it because that's negative reinforcement, I don't give a gently caress they will violate me if i deviate so I always verify it anyway. I can admit when I am guilty of that, but at the same time I can't even count the amount of times I've had pilots come back and say "was that XXX or XXX?" and then me thinking to myself "glad he asked". The Ferret King posted:Remember that if the point of collision is directly over the control tower/radar facility, ATC could die too. I have thought more than a handful of times I was about to die. Sitting in the tower. I've heard stories about contact approaches going bad too. Also, regarding giving traffic advisories, if we are talking to you, we SHOULD be letting you know about any potential traffic you need to know about. Regardless if you ask for it or not. I sort of scratch my head when a AC asks for traffic advisories. I sit and think "that's part of the job, right?". Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Apr 2, 2013 |
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Apr 2, 2013 18:00
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fknlo posted:Just got an email saying tower closures are being pushed back until June 15. Yeah this is what I am hearing at my center also. Not surprised, it's probably lawsuits affecting this and maybe they found some money to boot. I've got a buddy working at Goodyear in Arizona who is relieved about this. MrYenko posted:If they say the sky is purple, that motherfucker is not just going to be purple, it is going to be the most magnificent shade of Royal Purple the world has ever loving known. That's funny, in my Enroute OKC experience the class saying was "The sky is green, the grass is blue." A lot of us were priors so dealing with the academy land bullshit was pretty tedious. THE Jackson altimeter 2992. Crap like that. Ugh. Who are your instructors? I'd be surprised if any I knew are still out there. Although, Pedro is a legend. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Apr 8, 2013 |
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Apr 8, 2013 19:20
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fknlo posted:It all depends on what level the facility is and the locality pay for the area. I think Houston Center is probably as good as it gets since I believe they're a level 12 and somehow get the maximum locality pay. Yeah, isn't the cost of living in Houston not that bad also? But yeah, all depends on facility level. There ARE towers in the 10/11/12 range. I'd prefer to be working in one of those, but hey, none that pay this well where I want to be. :P ethanol posted:It must be incredibly disappointing to complete your training for atc or get out of the military with thousands of hours of control experience and then go to the FAA website and see 'no jobs available". This is definitely a thing. I know a lot of guys that used to be controllers in the military but are now just doing flight data because they didn't get hired in time before their 31st birthday with the FAA. It took me three years to get picked up, but that is mostly due to some bumble gently caress in OKC HR loving up with my resume, yet telling me for two years everything was OK. Basically, make the decision as early as you can in your life to try to get hired so you have some breathing room between then and your 31st. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Apr 13, 2013 |
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Apr 13, 2013 19:23
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MrYenko posted:Last I heard, the level 9/10/11/12 terminal facilities weren't taking new hires, anyway, just CPC transfers from lower-level towers. Apparently their washout rate on new hires was astronomical. Seeing how even just lower level terminal facilities work, this doesn't surprise me a single bit in regards to the wash out rate. To be honest I agree they shouldn't take new hires. You'd be a fool to subject yourself to the risk of failing the training program at a high level terminal facility starting out, unless you had SERIOUS prior military experience.
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Apr 13, 2013 19:28
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fknlo posted:Ours goes to the watch desk. Not like they're actually doing anything up there anyway. High, effin, five. True speak!
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Apr 23, 2013 20:48
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AWSEFT posted:Just saw the video of the National Air Cargo crash. I just came in to post about this. Is that GTI (Giant)? If so I have worked that plane, a LOT. Apparently National Air Cargo. Doesn't seem to have GTI livery. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 20:47
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AWSEFT posted:Callsign: "National Cargo" Yeah, I was looking up the tail number on this. I mean yeah, I'm sad and horrified watching this. It just would have been REALLY weird if it was GTI. The fireball and "suddenness" of the crash reminded me of the B-52 at Fairchild back in 1994. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjFIB1L3BPU The co-pilot ejected in that video, it's just very hard to tell. Sadly, he landed in the fireball. Ugh that 747 video is horrible. It just seems so obvious that poo poo HAPPENED that was no one's fault flying that plane. At least in the B-52 video you can blame the rear end in a top hat pilot and not just the sheer fact that flying can kill you so quickly. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 00:00 on May 1, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 23:54
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hobbesmaster posted:At least an entire generation of loadmasters will see that video and learn, right? Maybe? I'm sure it will make an impact with a lot of them, but as always...there are always the ones.
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May 1, 2013 13:58
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Ron Don Volante posted:Anybody in here have experience as an air traffic controller? Why.
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May 1, 2013 19:56
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Ron Don Volante posted:I'd like to know what the training's like, what the work's like, and whether there are any job prospects whatsoever. Training sucks. Straight up. Is it worth it in the end? Yes. Dear god...yes. Stupid fat paychecks, benefits, paid days off, paid sick days. In some facilities you get stupidly generous breaks for 2 hours or less of work. At least with the FAA. The work is hard to describe. If you are a gamer I'd say the center/approach environment (radar controlling) is something like Starcraft. Lots and lots and lots and about lots to the 4th power more rules. It is very black and white in terms of the rules you apply. Not a lot of wiggle room. The difference between tower and radar may as well categorize them as completely different jobs. Tower is more enjoyable, IMO, but to each their own. It has a LOT less rules, more grey areas...but it is about 100x easier to kill people. In the air or on the ground. It's probably one of the most unique career fields in the world and isn't meant for everyone by any means. For those that can do it, they normally enjoy it a great amount and can't see doing anything else. I highly recommend getting a tour of a tower, approach control, and center if you can. As for job prospects? Lots of them out there. The difficult part is getting qualified to be hired. The military is how I got in to the field. I couldn't afford student debts. If I had the money I most definitely would have done a CTI school. The benefit of doing the military route is that it's free and that when you get out you qualify for a LOT more jobs as opposed to just doing CTI school. The thing is though, most people's ultimate goal with ATC is getting picked up with the FAA, so if you take a DOD/Contract job out of the military the pay is almost never as good with the FAA (unless they have you doing work over in the sand box...but then you can't even enjoy your money). So yeah, if you got the cash and decide this is a thing you want to do, CTI school. You HAVE to be hired before your 31st birthday with the FAA though, and it can take up to three years to get hired after you qualify. I know people that have waited 6 months and people that have waited 5 years. Both those extremes are very rare though. Also this is a very simplified post regarding the things you asked. I'd need a few hours to go over all the stuff individually to give a REALLY good idea.
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May 1, 2013 21:28
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fknlo posted:The training is loving terrible, especially in the simulators. I just finished my last graded R-side problem today and I couldn't be happier. The problems flat out suck, they aren't realistic, and you shouldn't be more nervous running problems in the Dysim lab than you are working live traffic. poo poo needs a revamp that it will never get. The work itself is fun and you get paid a lot of money to do it. Good luck getting in, whatever you do, don't spend a bunch of money on a CTI school. Nothing like having some fancy Embry Riddle degree and 6 figures of debt to either never get picked up or to fail out of the academy. Hear loving hear. Also, not all CTI schools are 6 figures of debt. I know of some in the SE region that are cheap and only two years. Embry Riddle is a straight rip off.
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May 1, 2013 23:36
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The Ferret King posted:I don't think there's a definitive way to say. Stuckmic.com has a forum that's reasonably active with students and applicants. It's good for a rumor mill but not much else. It'll be interesting to see when the academy opens back up: http://www.stuckmic.com/atc-employment-general-discussion/23862-hiring-freeze-continues.html Pretty much this. Stuckmic is fairly difficult to get solid info from outside of looking at actual information charts. Everything else is opinion or rumors. A lot of times the real answer you need/want isn't going to be discussed for fear of the FAA coming down on the replying poster. That's why you will see a lot of folks go "PM me". As for schools? If the two year schools were available at the time I would have 100% done that instead of the time I did in the military. Even with prior qualifications and almost a decade of live experience training managers still told me they wanted people from CTI schools instead. That won't be the case for every facility, but it was for the one I was aiming for. Obviously, to each their own, but I'm of the opinion that most degrees these days are worth barely anything, and considering what you can get out of the CTI programs their value is head and shoulders above the rest. Getting hired off the street is like winning the job lottery. Being a CTI grad is a guarantee hire assuming you don't bomb the ATSAT. So is the military. It just takes time.
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May 2, 2013 13:44
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:edit: I fly out of an Air Force Base through their Aero Club, and tower LOVES putting us on 7-mile straight-ins. A 7-mile final in a C-172 takes a long, boring time. Where at? Definitely doesn't sound like what I did with our aero club guys that would get in the way during wing flying. 
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May 7, 2013 02:22
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Holloman AFB. KHMN. We do our patterns out at KALM. If you don't turn final for 21 at KALM, you're 7 miles out for 25 at KHMN. At pattern altitude. So they just tell us to "establish 7-mile final" which is just "turn to 250, make sure you see a runway in front of you." When we report established, they say report 2-mile, and just do whatever else they want with other traffic. There are three ~10,000ft runways there, and if we land on 25, we can do a 180 and exit at the numbers, or exit on any of a few taxiways before the first intersection. I've worked F-22s. Why did I just picture a F-22 going VRROOOOOOMMMM over the top of a C-172? I don't know why, but I'm glad I did. edit: I mean like literally, the plane saying "VRROOOOMMM".
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May 7, 2013 05:19
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The Ferret King posted:Just became fully certified today at KCRP. This is my second ATC facility and I've now been with the FAA about 4 years, I'm pretty stoked. And nervous. But, working a busier facility has already made me so much better than I was before, and I look forward to continuing to improve. One of your previous co-workers is at my facility.
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May 9, 2013 13:57
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fknlo posted:I'm from Kansas City so I'm used to severe weather, but it was definitely something new for all of our California people. It was 100 or hotter for 58 of our first 60 days there on top of earthquakes, wildfires and the occasional tornado. We all decided that Oklahoma was literally hell. I wouldn't have been at all surprised if a volcano had come up in the middle of the airport. Was this back in 2011?
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May 25, 2013 21:30
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fknlo posted:Sure was. I was there from July to November. I was there for the terminal course, Jun-Aug. I remember our last two days there were the only days the entire time it got less than 100. It felt cold. hobbesmaster posted:Delta still has an aging DC-9 fleet to draw down. That and the fact a lot of these guys are X/Ws. Like...really guys?
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May 27, 2013 14:59
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MrYenko posted:We did discover, however, that although the VSCS is not on the protected circuit, the coffee makers in the breakout rooms ARE. loving priorities. hahhaha YES This is not the least bit surprising. God, I love controllers and the people we work with.
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Jun 3, 2013 20:16
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Liar of the Shire posted:I went through ATC Academy 3 years ago and I don't know what he said. He is going through a recently updated program for en route. Because of this the pass rate went from like 95% all the way to 60%. My wife went through the older pass/fail course which was churning out dumble tards by the bucketful, and when I swapped over from terminal to enroute they had changed the course to what it is now, cumulative score at the end with a MUCH MUCH higher fail rate. A month before my class tested, only 14 out of 32 a month prior got out of there with jobs. My class only had 11 out of the original 18. Good old rubber band effect. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Jun 18, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 14:55
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AWSEFT posted:Anyone have an "in" with XOJET? I don't, but I love those guys. Other pilots on the frequency make comments about them "showing off" at the altitudes they fly at pretty often.
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Jun 18, 2013 20:55
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kmcormick9 posted:Guy in my class needed an 11 on the last one and got a -7. Yeah, I remember talking with an evaluator after our last problem. There is a possibility of losing 400 points on each of those problems. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Jun 24, 2013 |
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Jun 24, 2013 01:25
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Yeah I'm real curious about the details on this one. Early speculation looks like the plane may have touched down to early, hit some rocks behind the under run? Listening to that ATC clip is interesting. It seems like a trainee was working then the trainer took over.
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Jul 7, 2013 05:24
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So this is indicating pilot error and not some random act of nature seeking vengeance on man?
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Jul 8, 2013 02:28
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Mikojan posted:We had a Cessna 152 turn base on Ibiza the other day while we where holding short of the runway in our 320 burning 700kg of jet fuel an hour. As a tower controller in a former life I can understand in certain situations.
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Jul 8, 2013 16:35
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thehustler posted:Hey guys, quick hypothetical question. I've seen that multiple times in person. Most definitely a thing that can happen. And I am referring to it doing this with the nose pointed straight up. If the pilot is good/crazy enough it is a amazing thing to see. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 17:30
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MrYenko posted:Got recommended for my A-side checkride, tomorrow. Soon, everyone leaving south Florida northbound will have to go through ME*. ZMA? fknlo posted:I think this just might be an aviation thing, because controllers are the exact same way. They're all either ex-military or got the job out of college and don't know what jobs in the real world entail. I remember my roommates, who were controllers for a few years before I started, bitching about the most retarded loving things ever. I try and give myself reality checks every now and then to remind myself of how lucky I am and how good I actually have it. I was a military controller. It also took three years for me to get picked up. It wasn't a picnic for me while I was in. 6 on, 1 off rotating schedules. I absolutely loathe the amount of whining I hear from people making 6+ figures with the schedules we have. The sheer amount of entitlement issues I see and deal with every day make me.arrrrgghhhhhhhhh The Ferret King posted:However, traffic is way down so we spend more time with sectors combined up which requires fewer people. Must be nice. :P My area has 9 sectors and every day between 9-7 guaranteed we have at least 8 of them open. We also have the same manning as areas with 6 sectors. Math! Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Aug 3, 2013 |
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Aug 3, 2013 01:07
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there are planes here (double post)
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Aug 3, 2013 01:13
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The Ferret King posted:We sometimes get snakes, lizards, rats etc in the building. Haven't yet gone ATC Alert/ATC Zero as a result of them though. This is amazing in a sick kind of way. We have goats on the property where I am at. Not one or two, but like 20. Also, baby goats are amazingly cute.
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Aug 4, 2013 17:33
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The Ferret King posted:Yep, thunderstorms are bad times. Also, didn't realize DFW tower used to call themselves "Regional Tower." Makes sense that the approach is now "Regional Approach." Isn't this the crash that also took off the top part of some poor guy's car, killing him, while he was driving on the highway that went behind the approach end of the runway? This was just an absolutely horrifying crash if its the one I am thinking of. I think it was a huge contributing factor for the LWAS system too. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Sep 3, 2013 |
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Sep 3, 2013 04:44
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hobbesmaster posted:Yeah that was the one ground fatality. More disturbing should be that mother nature punched the plane out of the sky. Mother nature doesn't surprise me any more. I'm just amazed at the amount of people that try to fly bug smashers through that crap still.
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Sep 3, 2013 05:29
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KodiakRS posted:[cough]southwest[/cough] SWA get's a free pass with the small amount of times they are actually stupid compared to the amount of times they will fly however you want from a controller standpoint. ASQ on the other hand...no. No, you will not be getting 380. Taking, literally, what is the equivalent of an 8 hour drive to get to FL 240....you are the worst. The. Worst. <3 SWA
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Sep 3, 2013 19:27
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AWSEFT posted:Yea the CRJ200 is a dog in the summer. If you don't manage your energy right you'll never get up there. In the winter we struggle to descend quickly because in icing we cannot use idle thrust. I know the CRJ2 is a dog, but I have also wondered if it is a part of the company policy also contributing to the absurd climb rates for ASQ? It's a pretty common thing for us to throttle them back to only 250 off departure if we want them to climb at anything resembling a normal climb rate.
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Sep 5, 2013 12:27
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The Ferret King posted:Sorry to double post and bring this up in here, but the Sequester thread is moving too quickly to be useful. Mr Yenko, fknlo, Tommy 2.0, Iocounu, whoever else works as FAA ATC: Thanks for the heads up on this. fknlo posted:Thanks! This was almost me since management was being management and wasn't aware I got my medical back after surgery. At my facility they ARE letting people without a current medical to come in to work A-Sides (which everyone knows is a complete joke). People at my facility that just finished R-School, but weren't able to keep proficiency, are being allowed the same. Honestly, if your facility isn't allowing this they are opening themselves wide open for a grievance. It IS a certification after all. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Oct 3, 2013 |
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Oct 3, 2013 14:16
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fknlo posted:So had my first loss of separation today, but as far as my trainer and I can tell, it was 100% legal. I had an Acey CRJ2 ASQ vs SWA. Yeah, no. That is never ever ever a game you play. That is about the most opposite you can get in terms of climb rates when it comes to airliners these days. SWA flies those 737s like freaking rocket ships. Six hundred foot hits? No problem! ASQs reliably have to be regularly pointed out to the other low sectors on their climbs across 250 miles worth of airspace. That is the inability to climb to FL 240 in two hundred and fifty miles before I have to point them out to the next sector. Not to mention that due to their atrocious climb rate they get stuck down low since they just keep getting in the way of everything else. No, I'm not saying ASQ has bad pilots, in fact they seem to be some of the more reliable ones I have dealt with in terms of applying and reading back instructions. I pick on them because they fly the RJ2 more than any other airliner I know. The 65 says you are legal though. Staying safe and legal is what matters. fknlo posted:The Southwest never leveled before FL270. He had been climbing like Southwests tend to do though. ROKKIT SHIPPU Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Oct 6, 2013 |
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Oct 6, 2013 04:34
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climbing out to the south. I also had a Southwest departing KSTL to the southeast. I was stepping the Southwest up under the Acey as it plodded its way to FL300. The Acey was out of FL274 and the Southwest was out of FL255 and I climbed the Southwest to FL270. That god drat Southwest leveled off at FL270 while the Acey was at FL278. They had about 3 miles, diverging and I climbed the Southwest to altitude about 30 seconds later.
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The Ferret King posted:Abridged version. So he's legal. What's the problem? Why should he not play this legal "game?" Thing called duty priority. The 65 is pretty black and white in the radar portion of its rules, but something like this could potentially be pretty bad if you ask me, legal or not. You get some bad altimeters and a wee bit of turbulence and a thing like fknlo's situation could possibly go from "legal but eyebrow raising" to "more than just an ATSAP". I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I've seen people play the "legal game" enough to know when it's OK to play it and when it's not. I play it myself with some things when I feel absolutely certain it's OK. Some things just seem like a law of percentages waiting to happen though. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Oct 6, 2013 |
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Oct 6, 2013 15:20
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The Ferret King posted:Since the first duty priority of an air traffic controller is to separate aircraft and issue safety alerts, and since the aircraft were legally separated in accordance with up to 2 different chapters of our manual, please again explain to me why someone wouldn't want to "play this game." And if you don't have a good answer this time, differ to someone who does. I revisited my post to sound less like a dick. I point out that legal separation or not, things can go wrong. When you have two aircraft that have drastically different climb rates like his situation above, it may be legal, but it is safer to wait IN MY OPINION. With the RJ2/737's climb rate it seems perfectly feasible for them to only be within a few hundred feet with application of that rule depending on where the 737's altitude difference was. That RJ2 takes an unexpected drop in altitude for unforeseen reasons then well, you have a bad situation. So yeah, first duty priority is to separate planes. I suppose it is up to each controller's discretion if they would rather be legal, or legal and moral. Paint on paint separation is bad. Legal or not. You and I both know the .65 is written in blood. You ask me, that is one rule to eventually change. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Oct 6, 2013 |
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Oct 6, 2013 15:39
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The Ferret King posted:I disagree completely. If an aircraft has left an altitude, and another aircraft has been assigned that altitude that has been vacated, then the two will not occupy the same parcel of air at the same time and the operation is safe. An event (like an unexpected descent of a climbing aircraft for....reasons?) that would cause a dangerous situation while applying this rule would also cause a dangerous situation when applying 500ft/1000ft vertical separation, or 3nm/5nm lateral separation. Yes, unexpected things can make previously legal operations more dangerous, so I expect controllers and pilots should be ready to react to those anomalies to keep everything safe. I'm not just referring to fknlo's situation and his situation alone. I've been doing ATC for a long time, worked literally every type of plane and performance type, and I have seen text book application of the .65 almost kill people numerous times. Then the person who applied it go "well the .65 says I can do it!". Just because you haven't seen something similar doesn't mean it can't/doesn't happen. If you never encounter a situation like that in your career consider yourself blessed (and an anomaly). Yes, there are rules that are completely absurd and over separate upon over separate. Then there are rules that make you go "wait, we can do that? Why?". Basically what I am asking, or hoping you ask yourself at times, is "just because I can, should I?". Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Oct 6, 2013 |
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Oct 6, 2013 16:41
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The Ferret King posted:Wake turbulence still applies where necessary, otherwise no. You don't combine that rule with cruise clearances or pilot`s discretion though. Wake turbulence? WHY THAT'S CRAZY TALK. Seriously though, seeing guys that are en route their entire career and say they are being "nice" by giving CWT to a 737 flying OVER a H/C5 is absolutely endearing. Princess Bride quotes pop in my head every time I see it.
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Oct 7, 2013 20:11
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