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Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received
Finding good Magic grog is so hard. I could post poo poo like this:


Legacy and Vintage are degenerate unfun places full of land-destruction, combos, and free counters.

But how is anyone with only a casual awareness in the game going to comprehend all that is incorrect here?

This is the best I can do after so many dives, because I can do that sarcastic restating thing.


EDH (the real one, four person FFA): need to gather people, games can last hours, politics (especially when illogical) may ruin the game

"My extremely narrow definition of an informal casual format causes the casual format to have problems."


Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
So, Jim Zub, comic writer, had the actual Robin Laws stat up the protagonists of "Skullkickers" using GSL-avoiding 4E stat blocks. Of course this just won't do.

Anil Dikshit
Apr 11, 2007
SA's own Magic Grognard Kingcobweb had this to say today:

kingcobweb posted:

I say mean things about Magic Online but if you don't want to click that here's just the image I made

Kingcobweb's grog filled article follows posted:

Today is a magnificent day in the history of Magic. It is a day when a subset of Wizards revs their engine and zooms past the userbase of Magic Online, their grotesque yellowed middle fingers flubbering in the breeze as they plow straight into the nearest building and tell us it’ll be right back up in no time. Welcome to the Beta Era, shitbags.

For years now, we’ve read fake-cheery articles announcing More Sweet Features in the fabled Fourth Version of Magic: Online, and today, it was formally released with all the expectation and excitement normally associated with waiting for the vet to put your dog to sleep. It is beyond criticism, because every criticism is answered with “we’re aware and totally working on it” from a representative of both of its programmers with a combined $60,000 salary. It has become such a frequent punchline that it is the unstated end joke to anything that happens in the program.

A community of people so focused on the next new thing when it comes to Magic, the people lining up in front of their local Wal-Marts to get the latest Android phone the second it comes out, were so horrified at the idea of using the new client rather than the basically-eight-year-old-one that Wizards had to have weekends when it forced its players to use the new client, or they couldn’t log onto Magic Online. Magic players responded in droves by not logging on to Magic Online.

Wizards genuinely cannot seem to fathom why people would rather not use a client that, by default, has everything in the program as a separate window, shows the cards in hand as so big that they overlap unreadably, and presents a handy scroll button to reveal the entirety of one’s opening hand. Brian Kibler’s encounter with the Wide Beta should be enshrined as a classic piece of Magic history: presented with baby-sized cards in the most important zone, all he can do is laugh and ask why. When a monolith of a corporation makes a terrible product and throws fake-sympathetic community relations agents at us instead of fixing everything, laughter is the only response left.

Today, Magic Online called us drunk at let’s say 2:17AM. “HEY! Heyyyyy it’s our annivvversary and wewerereally greaaatt together aand I knoww you liked, like the uhh… the Modern Master… master-“ *giggle* “MASTERS and the vintage one aaaand holiday in cubeodia soooo yeah come on over?”

We gleefully give Magic Online another chance, try out this Holiday Cube again, and Magic Online is passed out face-down on the couch with vomit dribbling from his mouth before the draft is even over.

This was your special day, Magic Online. This was supposed to mean something.

7/16/2014: the day Version 3 is retired forever.
7/16/2014: the day someone forgot to hit the “phantom draft” checkbox next to the “launch Holday Cube” button.

Should we have expected any better from the program that couldn’t ban Æther Vial for an entire day because they didn’t know how to add a card with that little “Æ” to the banned list?

The logical conclusion to this isn’t that they gave people Black Lotuses they weren’t supposed to have, then shut down the Holiday Cube to fix the problem, then took them away. They’re not capable of that. First, they had to make everyone who had acquired illicit Cube cards on a No-Trade List while they figure out how to remove them from people’s accounts. The emails they sent to those people mention doing it for everyone manually. On the plus side, this wasn’t communicated via stone tablet thrown through their window.

A rough timeline:

2002: Magic Online 1.0 by Leaping Lizard released for Windows.
2003: Magic Online 2.0 released by Wizards internal development, after wresting control from Leaping Lizard.
2003: MTGO 2.0 so unusably server-crashingly buggy that Wizards turns off the ability to give them money, reverts it to a beta.
2003: Wizards apologizes for the servers crashing by launching a free event called ‘Chuck’s Virtual Party.’ This crashes the servers.
2006: the rebuilt-from-the-ground up Magic Online 3.0 scheduled for release.
2006: it is not released.
2007: “
2008: Magic Online 3.0 released.
July 2012: Magic Online 4.0 (“Tha Beta”) gets first Wide Beta Spotlight.
7/16/2014: see above.
20XX: Macintosh client? Android? iPad?

Another timeline:

March 2013: Blizzard announces Hearthstone.
August 2013: Hearthstone enters closed beta.
March 2014: Hearthstone released for PC.
April 2014: Hearthstone released for iPad.

Magic Online turns to the camera and shrugs. Audience laughter. Applause. “That’s Our MODO!”

Forums Terrorist
Dec 8, 2011


A good tremere would turn himself into a butt plug and command his goul to insert. Now that he has physical contact with the goul he is down traits on resistance for possession. Skin walking tremere never gets killed

Glorified Scrivener
May 4, 2007

His tongue it could not speak, but only flatter.


I bought this product for 2 reasons.

1) I've heard so many good things about Vornheim from a bevy of blogs I follow and whom opinions I respect, I figured it was about time I purchase the pdf. I'm glad I did as I was not disappointed by the content. The book is chock full of inspirational ideas and story nuggets perfect for any fantasy campaign.

2) I wanted to show my financial and moral support for "Zack Smith" who authored this work. To let him know he's not alone in the gaming community in his disdain towards the SJW's (Social Justice Warriors) and Cultural Marxist who constantly attack him and seek to control discourse in the on-line RPG community. Keep on fighting the good fight Zak.

First they came for the Simulationist Gamers, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Simulationist Gamer.
Then they came for the Tactical Combat Gamers, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Tactical Combat Gamer.
Then they came for the Old-School Gamers, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Old-School Gamer.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Oct 13, 2012
How very PC. A female soldier, and a samurai at that. A true archetype.

She should be black or Mexican to boot.

Sep 6, 2012

Does that mean I don't get the job?
"That 5e consultant job paid pretty well but please keep giving me money for being an rear end in a top hat while I be smug about it."

Tarnowksi posted:

Wednesday, 16 July 2014

Now YOU Can Outrage The Outrage-Brigade! Support the Pundit!
Let me tell you, there are few things as fun as tasting the bitter impotent tears of people who wish you ill, especially if they are additionally people who totally deserve to be thwarted. And I've been having a lot of fun lately.

The "Outrage Brigade" went all out to attack me (and Zak S.) when we were in fact credited as D&D Consultants on 5e (seriously, did they just think we'd been lying about it all this time?), and engaged in a campaign of libel, lies, half-truths, rumours, and all kinds of insults in some kind of misguided attempt to boycott us.

It doubled my blog entries, increased traffic on my forum, and led to increased sales of anything associated to me. The Anti-Pundit Swine literally made me money.

That led to even more outrage! There's nothing they hate more than seeing me succeed, than seeing me do well and be liked by people in the hobby at both the industry and popular level. They hate that I'm right, and that I'm good, and that because of these things I get what I set out to do.

So I already showed RPG publishers and designers how they can get in on the action, and many of those who listed me as consultant or sent me games to review have taken advantage of that. The Pundit Bump is bigger than ever now, as the mere mention of my name spikes clicks. And again, if you're a designer or publisher and want in on the action, I am currently available for hire for Consultant jobs.

But then I also thought about all those fans who do not write or publish RPGs; surely they want in on the action too? Fortunately, I remembered that in fact there is a way that YOU TOO can outrage the outrage-brigade! Over to the right hand side of the blog is a Paypal Button; if you want to do your part to help the Outrage Brigade feel thwarted, or you just want to let me know that you support me in the face of these stupid and fortunately-inept attempts to boycott me, the serious and disgusting lies being told about me, and the disturbing death threats, or if you just want to send me a little gratuity because you like how old-school the style of 5e is, then please click that button and send me a donation to encourage me to keep up the good work!

Remember, every little bit you help will produce more valuable pretentious-rear end in a top hat-tears of frustration, and that's a precious resource this hobby needs!

Seriously, thanks to all my readership and supporters, old and new.


Currently Smoking: Lorenzetti Oversize + H&H's Beverwyck

Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
No, I haven't changed my mind [about 5e]

I have only followed the development a little. When I heard that you would be able to be completely healed by a simple nights rest, I cringed at the prospect for this edition to become even more like a CRPG, with even less focus on actual roleplay and social interaction, and more on combat.

This did not change when I read the basic rules. Especially when I read how little actual customization you could do. That skills, for example, are more or less solely bound to your level, which makes them even more of a sideshow than previous edition had. A skilled farmer is now impossible to make, outside of him being super strong/intelligent/whateverstatfarmingisbasedon or crazy high level. Yes you have a selection of hero powers, so you can customize how you fight. But what about all the other stuff, you know, outside combat?

It is not a ruleset for much outside combat, nor is it a ruleset that conveys immersion or verisimilitude very well. In my mind, it does not help roleplay at all, but steers towards a CRPG feel where combat is the only interesting part of the game, and it revolves around that and loot.

It is a ruleset that is easier to pick up than previous editions, set up for dungeon crawls.
Dungeon crawls are the laziest and most boring form of "roleplay", if it can be called roleplay at all.

Jul 5, 2012

If only Milliband had eaten a vegan sausage roll instead of a bacon sandwich, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Eric Montoya posted:

@Rick S. if you do open a lawsuit. it'll be very easy for me to track you down. if I'm forced to do that no one will ever have to suffer another of your posts again. purge day!

Palladium's Robotech kickstarter is worth killing for.

Jan 15, 2012

I Got Kids. I need this.

Some Guy posted:

That's really the rub, especially since the new fad in Tabletops is to streamline it which is basically taking away a lot of the fun.... ability scores were key because they defined who you were an how you'd play. My bard character wasn't good at fighting but he was able to talk the party out of being cannibalized by halflings. It's a lost art.

Same Guy posted:

paladins are lawful good, meaning they can't do anything questionable. I got around that once (lenient DMs are also amazing to have) because the city campaign we were doing was about finding the cultist trying to summon one of the greater devils. As slaying an unarmed man is against all sorts of goodness, I interrogated him by kindly baptizing him repeatedly and for prolong periods of time.

It was blessed water and he worshipped a demon. Some people call it water-boarding, I called it chasing away his demons... sadly though, after he spilled the beans he tried to attack our cleric who was healing him. So he got gutted. But he died a convert so points for me

... I will say 4th Edition should be retconned out of existence.

Apple Mummy
Oct 11, 2012

Valued Readers,

Since it was founded in 1689, The Dongion has done its best to bring you only the finest in gossip about things that aren't important.

Recently it has come to The Dongion's attention that the people The Dongion satirizes do not like The Dongion. This shocking and unfortunate news comes at a time where the people The Dongion does not like are behaving more poorly than they ever have before.

In the interest of the greater good, of restoring sanity to the RPG industry, of not giving these many losers more reasons to cry "victim" than they had before, and encouraging these folk to think about people who aren't themselves once in a while, The Dongion will be closing its doors and shutting off its presses.

Know though that should the douchebaggishness repeat or return, The Dongion may be forced to rise again, like an ink phoenix from the ashes.


-E. Gary Zweibel

Editor and Proprietor,
The Dongion


A shame.

Edit: Especially since The Dongion's closing is likely to have the opposite effect. The Dongion highlighted idiocy that deserved to be called out, and satirized it effectively and mercilessly. Without that kind of spotlight, idiocy becomes emboldened enough confuse itself with truth.


I agree... These social justice warriors are going to take this as a victory and keep pushing for it. They are going to be encourage to be even more dumb.

Small Strange Bird
Sep 22, 2006

Merci, chaton!
Some guy wants to play an Indiana Jones-style Rogue in Pathfinder. Some other guy has strong opinions about this.


No, they are not idiots for not doing your work for you. They were 100% right about the rouge sucking and they even tried making you an alternative character which is more than I would have done. If you want an obscure build then it is your own responsibility to read up on stuff. A game master is NOT suposed to vomit up already digested stuff to you like you were an newly hatched bird.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Women sexualize themselves in real life way more often than they do in card games.

I'm not sure how they do it. I'm guessing irl women wear even smaller bronze boob cups?

Feb 28, 2012


Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

I'm not sure how they do it. I'm guessing irl women wear even smaller bronze boob cups?

Magic has a lot of creapy players.


Nice art. Creapy, disterbing, and strangely erotic.

It is disterbing, but water women with a mouth and tentacles on her back sure as hell ain't erotic.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

(NSFW for exposed asscracks.)

FromTheWaste posted:

Seems a bit exploitative posting pictures of people's asses, probably without their consent. If these were upskirt photos or something with non-consenting female subjects reddit would be up in arms with objection. Why, just because they fit into a humorous stereotype, do these people not deserve their human right to privacy?

PaulClavet posted:

Viewing the gallery, I'll admit to a sensible chuckle, but as someone who knows and makes my living from the players of this game, I kinda felt the sting on their behalf. It's funny, but I'm sure these guys wouldn't want their anatomy photographed and on the front page of reddit. I'm sure that the organizers of the event would not have taken kindly to it. Would it have been that much more difficult to say "hey bro, check your pants, they're a bit low?" I guess there wouldn't be as many Internet Points in that.

"But won't somebody think of all the guys who won't pull up their pants in public?!" :qq:

Clanpot Shake
Aug 10, 2006
shake shake!

A nice mix of, "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!" and "The representation of women in fantasy art if fine!" while using the cheesecakiest cheesecake example to undermine his point.


And I wish some people would stop trying to turn a dark fantasy game into an excersize in political correctness! There are also women in Powered armor (Battle sisters). Female inquisitors of varying age and appearance (In Various books), Female guardsmen in armor that prevents any sort Gender recognition etc. I also remember a particular picture of a cybernetically imprisoned naked male figure with some impressive proportions. Was this sexist too? You've trolled this line before and it was just as tiresome then! You know drat well that I was commenting on an appreciation of artwork rather than disrespecting an entire gender! There are women out there (some of them gamers) who would appreciate that picture as much as I did! Much of the interest in dark fantasy for many comes from it's somewhat disturbing yet oddly intrigueing overtones! No specific Gender is specifically targeted yet certain memes to both genders are! Remember, The death cult assassin is one of the deadliest members of the Inquisitor's Retinue in TT. The fact that she is made to appear Lithe and Graceful yet beautifully lethal is meant to invoke art to which she aspires. For you to reduce this to some fem-nazi anti-male trope means that YOU are the one denigrating the character and the other players of the game!

Sep 2, 2012

Why not? The Fighter gets 4 Attacks in a round and can go all day every day. The Wizard gets 22 Spell Levels every day. The Fighter, twice a Short Rest, can burst that with an extra action. The Wizard can get back a total of 10 Spell Levels once per day. 

So basically the Fighter Fights and the Wizard Wizzes. At the basic of basics. But wait Callin, what about everything you can do with spells that a Fighter cant do with Swinging a sword? Well thats simple. Its not supposed to or else why play a Wizard when a Fighter gets more HP and Heavy Armor. The Fighter can still replicate small effects while swinging a sword. Oh I need fire damage, sets Sword in Forge for a round and let it get hot. Need to drop a house on someone, cut the main support beam. The Fighter just needs to think outside the box to get the most out of his abilities. The Wizard gets it easy mode. 

Fighting Styles are the same as Wizard Schools. There are going to be better ones and Boring ones. Consider Champion like Evocation Spec Wizards. You deal damage, its what you do. Its not bad per say but it does not have the flair that Illusion has, or Maneuvers for a Fighter. 

So yes, yes I can compare Spells to Swinging a Sword. Its my opinion but I see why you say its a "false equivalences". Its like comparing Apples to Oranges. Well I am, and I find both to be tasteful. 

I meah hell why would anyone want to play in a game where everyone can do everything? WHY even get together and try to over come the encounters that the DM sets you up against when you could just do it alone? It dont make sense. Why have a party?



Feb 17, 2011

The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!
I thought this phrase deserved a topic of it's own. Most of the problems people raise on these boards are hypothetical with regards to my own games. I just don't have those problems. Over the years though, a few times, I've ran into players who seem to me to be seeking wish fulfillment and are not really that excited about interesting decisions.

So let me define how I am interpreting the terms.

Interesting Decisions
1. Campaign choices including interactions with significant NPCs. The idea of seeking goals outside the dungeon.
2. Tactical choices while inside combat. The proper use of various abilities and powers.
3. Strategic choices. Picking when and where you want to fight your battles. Setting up an enemy prior to battle. Laying traps.
4. Puzzles & Traps. Players actively trying to solve mysteries and puzzles. Keeping notes about history and legends found in the dungeon.
5. Resource management. Thinking about the usage of scarce resources. The proper planning and packing for an adventure.

Wish Fulfillment
1. The pleasure of seeing your enemies destroyed in spectacular fashion.
2. Being viewed by the inhabitants of the setting as a great hero. Given respect.
3. Choices driven more by flavor and effect rather than tactical or strategic importance.
4. Handwaving stuff that is often kept off camera in a high cinematic movie.

I'm far more concerned in my own game with the former than with the latter. My players always start out as nobodies in the grand scheme of things. Even at 20th level, they've just entered the ranks of the first order, they are not the sole dominant force in the setting. It's kind of like the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. Even if you are a 20th level character, there is still Tensor, Mordenkainen, Elminster, and so forth.

My players do draw satisfaction as they advance up which is part of the wish fulfillment idea so it's not 100% mutually exclusive. They get there though by a very hard road. They are tested as players to the limits of their imagination and resourcefulness. So my game tends to be very hard. Most of my players think other games are easier. I'm not a killer DM though. I'm just hard and my players are able to meet the challenge. For me that is part of the fun of the game. It is for many players too.

Those players I mentioned above though do not want the "stress" of fighting for their lives even in game. They don't mind combat but they really just want to demonstrate their prowess and use their powers and look cool. It's a different ethic I think and I've mostly over time avoided those players because I don't think I'm giving them what they want.

Thoughts and discussion?


Sounds like a re-hash of CaW vs CaS. Which is to say, nothing more than broadly implying that anyone who doesn't play in the OneTrueWay is a spoiled child.


Except, of course, until you go look at the link in the OP, and you see....


Is one way “better?”

So, Tony, you should probably revise your opinion on the matter.

1st Stage Midboss
Oct 29, 2011


They have different meanings, which are explained in more detail here: Basically, sex is biological but gender is a personal identity that doesn't relate to genitalia. The sections are still understandable, but this is a very sensitive area for many people, so it may pay to get the distinction correct.

Not to be controversial or argumentive with my fellow Corporation brothers and sisters out there, but the WHO is an extremely politically correct organization and this is after all just a role-playing game.


On page 21 the "Unexpected Reaction to the Prototype Medical Toolkit" table calls Gender Identity Disorder a "severe mental illness". Regardless of what I think, this is very controversial and in my opinion it is downright offensive. More information can be found on the wiki page for Gender identity disorder here: I would recommend this entry in the table be changed in future.

Not to speak for the staff but I am sure their use of the words "severe mental illness" is just a concept to bring emphasis to rolling a '10' i. e. worst roll result on the table and not to be taken for a "real life medical diagnosis."

I for one take everything I read in RPG games with a grain of salt. There are many books I have purchased that have politically correct content, idealologies or opinions that I do not agree with and even "in reality" totally disagree with and oppose (as a Federal Police Officer"...but they are only books written by an author or authors trying to tell a story or make a point and I still buy them because, even though they may hold ideals diametrically opposed to my own beliefs I still enjoy the material. I am certain that most authors do not intend to imply that such is to be taken seriously as a real-life, true to form concept. And its not like a game such as Corporation, meant for gamers to play well-paid, murdering psycopaths with little regard for human life, can be expected to play the "Politically Correct" game and still maintain its charm and appeal.

Clanpot Shake
Aug 10, 2006
shake shake!


Not to mention we shouldn't be going on a campaign to remove images of sexy women from gaming. There is a place for that and frankly [other poster] is right. There are women out there that do like to see images of sexy women. Why do we got to **** them over?
Women who like ogling women are the real victims of not objectifying women in fantasy art.

Jack the Lad
Jan 20, 2009

Feed the Pubs

An ENWorld poster on why Fighters getting to perform superhuman feats of strength is no good.


The Hulk is a superhero. The wizard is not a superhero. He is governed by the mechanics of his race. He abides by the laws and limitations of magic. Giving a D&D character superhero powers means you move the game to mythical or supernatural proportions - definitely not centred around medieval Europe (perhaps Ancient Europe).

Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
The problem isn't that the fighter is so ineffective outside combat, its that the rogue and wizard ARE so effective on a consistent basis IN combat.

A fighter fights. If he/she can't do this to a degree that makes every other class look like an assistant then the reason for being isn't there.

Once everyone can contribute to combat as effectively as a fighter then EVERYONE is a fighter. Except that they get other cool abilities as well.

All of this because years of videogame conditioning has led to the expectation that all characters have to kick equal amounts of butt in a fight and the game revolves around a series of fights. It isn't rocket science. If the game is about monster fighting then all classes have to do it well which leaves fighters as last picked for the soccer team. Its the bed WOTC made when they decided killing things was the focus of the game.


The problem is that some of us want magic to be like it has been in many editions of D&D. We want a mundane fighter and rogue. We want a wizard with a lot of utility. You see we never had a problem with those games. I play fighters and rogues. I play rogues the most probably but I hope you can agree that anything said about the fighter applies to the rogue as well when it comes to magic.

So any solution can't result in the elimination of the simple fighter and the complex wizard. Those two together make it D&D for me. Note FOR ME just so we don't start any wars here. I don't care though if there are 24 classes/subclasses and I only pick some of them. As long as the core 4 are covered I'd be okay. I do want a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric.

We've had this argument though a million times. The problem is that some people can't conceive that tables totally enjoy a game like 3e and that some of the people at those tables are playing fighters or rogues. Same for 1e or 2e. Fun is all I care about. It's a game. Games fascilitate fun or they get tossed in my book. That is their only purpose.


Fine call it superheroism or herculean whatever - don't get caught up on the word here. You know exactly what I mean. The wizards on the other hand are mere mortals, same mortal (human) limitations, that have uncovered the intricacies of magic. If you have jumping Hulk as a fighter you have broken that "realism" what you have now is a person of superhuman strength and ablities - which begs the question are you playing Marvel Superheroes or medieval fantasy?


Not in Basic. I don't even know why thread like these are created since the DMG with the options hasn't even been released. It's harder to replace a "mythic power" in the Core Rules than to tack it on as a module to suit your playstyle. Core shouldn't be Wuxia, that, IMO, was 4e biggest error, it seemed to force one certain playstyle.

--(Like I don't even know about this one, what? How is anything in 4E core like Wuxia?)---

I have never in my life played a D&D game where the players were are odds with each other over characters being balanced against each other. The players are on a team. They work together and compliment each other or they die. Hell, the DM is on the same team in that everyone at the table is there to have fun and tell a cool story that they all enjoy.

Wizards are more dangerous opponents than equal level fighters? That must be why smart monsters kill the dang wizard first. So far in playing Basic the Wizzy has been a potent glass canon. Killed a few goblins (though not as many as any of the fighters) and then was the only character to die when the fighters were split from the party.

Jun 2, 2005

El Presidente smiles upon this thread.


if i played myself realistically, i would be a white italian american female anime geek in her mid 20s with a childlike appearance, a fear of cameras, a fear of interaction, an obsession with faeries, and a really useful, protective, helpful, convenient and patient boyfriend that happens to be a dangerous unarmed berserker that can easily defeat most armed foes with his bare hands. the only reason he didn't become a Navy seal was because he is diabetic.

i forgot to note something, i am also mute and have to communicate through charades or a whiteboard. so my boyfriend also does all of my speaking for me. well, at least i have my own personal celestial Aegis. oh wait, does that make me a pokemon trainer or summoner?

*points at a random mook as her boyfriend pummels the insignifficant guard to a a sanguine mess with his bare hands, nodding in acknowledgement and thanks with a silent sigh of relief as the massive bestial male hands her the Kurumi Tokisaki figurine the guard was taunting the mute loli with*

Feb 17, 2011

The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!
Now, consider all the mystique, power and awe I have given to magic. Consider that mundane's have but one saving throw to resist the effects of a magic spell. Now consider the Fighter who is able to shake off the arcane - hence his additional saving throw. That is pretty impressive, for me.

Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

Thanks Xiw !

This guy gets an awful lot wrong, and he's really vehement about it too.


Most Often, RAW is Simply Right - Today, 11:14 AM
I'm on record as holding the opinion that if one decides to use rules for something, then you stick to and use those rules. By rules here I mean the written game mechanics + written house rules that add/modify or remove specifics from those rules (created after careful and deep consideration of the effect). One makes character decisions as they wish and the GM will make rulings where no rules apply, but the rules are the rules where and whenever they apply binding to both the player and the GM.

If someone doesn't like the result, they should play a game where they do and even go completely without mechanical systems if their tastes are that extreme.

I recently witnessed an great actual play example of why I hold this opinion. It came up in my son's online campaign where RAW was overruled in the middle of a combat. Let's review it here.

System Background

The system in use (Age of Heroes) is rather detailed using a hexgrid, minis (actually the D20 virtual desktop in this case) and terrain. A combatant's position is important under the rules in a number of ways. It is a High Pace of Decision system where tactical error or advantage can quickly decide outcomes, thus what a player does and where his is when doing it is of prime importance in determining the outcome.

Terrain is important in the design and in play. It's key characteristic is that terrain is a constraint upon movement and attacking and those constraints defines its role in combat resolution.

The important RAW in this example is that firing missile weapons into melee combat is dangerous. It's assumed that during the 6 second combat round the player's true position on the hexgrid (while defined) is in truth vague and it's easy for movement during melee to result in the wrong target being stuck. Thus any missile fire into melee will have a 40% change of striking the wrong target. The RAW provides no exception to this.

Actual Play Result

The PCs had reached the root cause of some ritual murders plaguing the kingdom and engaged the evil villains in battle. The most powerful foe was a summoned creature of great size taking up 2 hexes on the battle map. A true danger to the PCs.

One PC was engaged with the monster by a pillar within the room. Another at some distance took aim with his bow and pointed out that his ally (the PC engaged in melee with the monster) had full cover from the pillar (which would normally prevent line of sight and thus range fire that *directly* targeted him), but that the monster had 1 hex clearly in line of sight. Thus the player desired the GM to overrule the RAW concerning firing into melee and rule that the PC could not be hit, but the monster could.

The GM agreed. The analysis struck him as reasonable at the moment and he went with it. I imagine most modern GMs would, even those that are normally RAW players.

Why He Was Horribly Wrong
The GM ignored the abstraction contained in the game design and made the incorrect assumption that the PC's and snake's position was locked and fixed for the entire combat round.

If that was true (or rather assumed true), the rule for firing into melee would never apply in melee and should be reserved only for Close Combat (i.e. characters wresting in the same hex) as melee combatants always occupy different hexes with different lines of sight . This is clearly not the case in the rules that specifically say they apply.

Further, if one still insists on considering the locations 'fixed', case the ability of the PC to defend himself would be heavily constrained by his lack of motion vs. his huge foe. Very heavy negatives should have been applied to the character's defenses, but neither the rules (which know that location is vague) nor the GM (who decided location was fixed) called for such. Thus the overruling of RAW was clearly strictly for the PC's benefit- not that of the reality of 'fixed location'. It was at best, half considered.
The GM altered the purpose of Terrain, which should act as a hindrance to attackers (i.e. providing the monster with cover) and instead turned it into an advantage to the attacker.

It Had Horrible Results

In addition to causing the systems abstraction and simulation elements to fail as noted above, it had a number of negative mechanical and campaign results.
It overpowered Missile Weapons.

The game design provided missile fire with a number of significant advantages in RAW. Beside the obvious issue of being able to attack at range, they are also harder from most creatures to defend against and have a impressive ability to one-shot most targets on a well rolled attack. One of the offsets to these advantages was the firing into melee constraint. That constraint was removed granting even more advantage to already powerful option.
It underpowered Large Creatures

The genre the game was designed for sees large creatures as large threats and the system as a point of genre simulation provides them with a number of advantages towards this end. This ruling however overturned that concept, making them weak against missile fire (which was already a weak point for them).
It resulted in a easy unearned player victory

The Combination of both the above factors led to a quick and easy defeat for what should have been by the RAW a difficult and dangerous encounter with no danger to PCs.
It Set Precedent.

The players will now expect similar rulings in the future. This will go beyond the permanent increase in missile weapon power and reduction in the danger of large creatures and they will expect similar logic to apply in other areas.

Further the GM will likely (consciously or not) reduce his use of terrain in future battles to make things more even against missile users. This will make future battlefields more boring.
Unintended Outcomes

The game design never considered this ruling and thus makes no allowance for it. As a result combat will from this point on will progress with a element unknown to the system, and thus highly likely to be unbalancing in its final effect.

One last thing to note. Overruling RAW is almost always for player benefit as most players will scream bloody murder if the GM suddenly defeats their character in violation of the rules. Even if they don't, most GM will shy away from rulings against the players in any case, as most are not playing to 'defeat' them.

When added to game designs already biased towards player victory (most rpgs are, otherwise long ran campaigns by RAW would be impossible if every combat had a significant chance of player failure), the end result is a even easier campaign where the players have cheated themselves out both the challenge and the simulation the system offered.

So given all the above, why is overruling RAW so common?

Because the typical GM and player never stops to think about it. Until I pointed out the above, everyone in the group (which including three players from my own campaigns) thought they were being clever and that it was cool. They weren't, and it was wasn't. The real battle they bypassed on the other hand could have been.

Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you've simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Lottery of Babylon
Apr 25, 2012


mllaneza posted:

Thanks Xiw !

This guy gets an awful lot wrong, and he's really vehement about it too.

same guy posted:


Or, people's goals don't value rules or rule fidelity as highly as sensible results, immersion, fun, or countless other values.

Slavish adherence to rules doesn't improve everyone's game.

First, the results *weren't* sensible. They were foolish and wrong.

Second, given that they don't honestly try to follow the rules, how the heck would they know they wouldn't value it? Having talked with some of the people afterward in this specific case, there was disappointment in the outcome although they had a blast otherwise.

But I will admit, most gamers do indeed value their success and gratification above all other concerns. I'm not really interested in them, I'm interested in anyone who might be willing to consider other factors if only they were aware of them.

Masked Faceless
Oct 7, 2013

by Ralp

mllaneza posted:

Because the typical GM and player never stops to think about it. Until I pointed out the above, everyone in the group (which including three players from my own campaigns) thought they were being clever and that it was cool. They weren't, and it was wasn't. The real battle they bypassed on the other hand could have been.
My way is the only way to play games!



/tg/, we really, REALLY need to talk about the recent surge in popularity of "Dungeon World" and its sister systems around here, especially the trend of recommending it as a good system for "introducing" players to our hobby.

I understand that there is an obsession with being subversive and finding the most super specialest alternative to D&D possible, but having finally taken the time to read into Dungeon World and the reasons why this game has caught on around here and other forums I feel the need to be frank: this NEEDS to stop. I try as hard as I can not to be a "badwrongfun" style curmudgeon, but this is not a role playing game. Full stop. This is not a role playing game, and this disingenuous promotion of it as such is legitimately dangerous to this hobby. This is an exercise in self-congratulatory free form group storytelling.

This is a "game" where the danger of literally any challenge is by design arbitrary, not just from encounter to encounter, but from action to action. There's no actual combat or tactics at play, everyone takes turns basically describing a "cool fantasy battle" and resolve everything through "dodge danger" and "hack and slash" rolls triggered at the GM's whim. This is a game proud of being anti-structure, where the goal is to explain to the GM how many cool things your players do instead of actively overcoming any challenges in your way.

It's chaos. Consequences of certain failures are decided collaboratively. The GM is encouraged to be more of an antagonistic player than an actual referee of any rules. At /tg/'s suggestion I watched a few videos of people playing this. At one point the *GM* asked the *PLAYERS* what rumors they had heard in town.

I get that the people involved in this game by admission shill it everywhere, but please stop pushing this as a system for beginners. It's dangerous to our hobby and the behaviors it promotes encourages entitled players with disruptive expectations for how parties are meant to work.


Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
As this hobby industry shinks from it's great past, it is sad to see that, rather than doing what it takes to beathe life back into it, we snarl like ravenous beasts fighting for scraps. The hobby will die because it must die. I've is a social hobby designed for people with all the social grace of a reptile. A fat, disgusting reptile with just enough education so that put on an air for sophistication, but they really just justifies the world's labels of gamers as hopeless, vile dorks that need to be put down like lame dogs.

Guilty Spork
Feb 26, 2011

Thunder rolled. It rolled a six.
Submitted without comment, because there's just nothing I could say.


Hi, I'm Joseph Oberlander. I'm a headbanger. I was in an old D&D Club. I'm the First One to discover how to perfectly-balance a Table-top Rpg. The reaching version of Boardgames.

I made a perfectly-balanced Table-top Rpg. Game Module in whole. I search but I can't find anyone willing to Publish it. It's instead a strange solicitation World. I need advice on who will Publish my Game Module, a One that will make endless Millions; and all very obviously without regret. I need a link or an email or a response to this here from someone who doesn't think it's weird or supersticious to endeaver in what the fans of every great Rpg. have been looking for.

Here is the letter I have for Publishers:

Will you Publish my perfectly-balanced Table-top Rpg. Game Module? I am the First one to discover how to perfectly-balance an Rpg. I made a perfectly-balanced Table-top Rpg. Game Module in whole. I don't have the Money to pay for starting-fees. But you can't lose with the one-and-only perfectly-balanced Table-top Rpg. Game Module they have.

And they wouldn't want any other. They'll put their old D&D book back on the shelf, and let it collect dust forever. It's a Game Module called Millicentury Reclimbers. It's just like D&D, but, it's better. It plays with Races enhanced, and the Classes have powers.

Wait 'til you see the formats inside. And the Adventure enhancements and Character inter-action playability. I can't tell you the secret of how this can go. But all the things we needed in the past are here now. Everyone will see the story of a perfectly-balanced Table-top Rpg. Game Module unfold.

I can also make Boardgames, Card Games and etc.; too. I have One Boardgame readily available to analyze and publish. I can have a grEAt start with everything no one's had before with these Two Games thundering perfect and readily cloudy. I'll have a good lead. And no one will stand in the way.

This is the start of knowing everything to start every quest...


-Joseph Oberlander-


It was said a long time ago that they have no perfectly-balanced Rpg. when D&D First started, and they said there is no way to make One. They would be glad to ever see One. But no one will ever be able to make One... "We tried everything, but, we can't do it... we tried every way". But they still looked with hope to the populus.

I am honored and proud and grand-reaching that I have the very Game they have been looking for. It stands to this Day the claim that no one has done it. I was in an old D&D Club. So I know exactly what they been lookin' for. And it IS possible... thAt's what my whole letter says.

It is a grand Fantasy Dream come true. You CAN do anything you want in a Game like that. It's the Medieval World they were looking for. Any real Publisher would see that right away. So my letter rings true, and it hits every cord right: All a Publisher has to do is agree he/she WOULD Publish a perfectly-balanced Table-top Rpg. Game Module and take a look at it... knowing no one could ever do it.

So I wonder through a hateful World and wonder why it's so negative and hateful. But I still look for a Publisher. One would do it. And I would conquer the negativety and un-fun people are having, and finally heal the World of dissappointment and searching. And I would make Boardgames and Card Games, too, to help with your slacking-off-from-Life times, so; I don't know WHO you're jabbing at or trying to dis-asway.

I can understand you want the truth, and I know it's hard to make the Game that everyone failed at, and; hard for me to HAVE the Day I could walk up here to even say it without dissappointing-accidents-and-one-or-two-unforseen-things-that-could-make-the-whole-thing-fail-all-of-a-suddenly... but, I have the Day.. maybe the work was hard... and even if they're WERE accidents, I can perfectly-balance an Rpg.. I don't think you understand:..... ... I CAN DO IT! :D ... and a Game Publisher would see that right away.

I can do any Rpg. I want.


They can't do anything they want. And the problems have been the Combat System and how it's hard to keep making Monsters consistent with fun and reality vs. the Players. So the Game slacks-off. They can't do Skills until they achieve endless fairness between the Classes, so they only go so far with making any until they're Limited. So they can't make the fun of the Game consistent with the Players.


As if there's anymore to say: Trolls only have a Couple hold-up Skills... like Fire Duration Enhancement.


DrivethruRPG didn't answer, yet.


I Mastered Combat, so I hope a Game Publisher takes a good look at my Game Module soon in some Day for Publishing a perfectly-balanced Table-top Rpg., and nothing more.

Emphasis added for the part where it gets not just crazy but creepy:


Any Boardgame Publisher could Publish it. All you need to do is Publish a book. And there aRe Game Pieces. You might-as-well grab a vision-view. A view-window-board from your mind... and endlessly Dream.

A good Publisher would be there some Day recognizing the True Chairs have been placed. I want that the Publisher(s) only use female Artists. I would only want female Artists to touch those parts. That includes the Game Pieces Designs. You don't have to make the Game Pieces, but, you would know what the Game looks like.

And only Females are allowed to do any Art of me or my Character if there is a rare reason to do so. Which I don't see any, but, for Advertisement around an image of me. I always cover this stuff in-case these things appear, but, anyone would make the Game Pieces. The Art would show a grand cliff in the background on the Front Cover, and some animals maybe, but; no humanoids, and the tall and wide cliff would maybe show high-lights with almost visible sparkles that hint of the Peak Stacks you could run into and also hint of the Ancient Wisdom Faces on Stone looking-up constantly from below everything that is reaching in Life... that is reaching in a Dream... as the Faces of Wisdom try to tell everything living that the Faces of Wisdom want more answers and more complete Wisdom from Adventurers exploring their Right to be there... and the Faces of Wisdom also try to tell of Peak Stacks that you would run into, and that every One of them has a Wisdom you know or don't know.

But the Back Cover would show Adventurers pointing through to the Front, and poking through with their fingers or something; while they point somehow at things exciting and at possible dangerous things coming and all while suggesting at a possible-coming Peak Stack. And the background of the Adventurers doesn't really matter whAt it is. Just some image to show they're there.

Any Art inside the book can be little or a good Amount. I would like certain sections in a limited Number throughout the book each to have an Artifact Heading that in an opinion covers a pretty complete conclusion of what's there. There. You can control it a little better, and concentrate easier on what's there.

Well good Art can get the molds for Game Pieces done better. It doesn't have ta' be alot of Art(A half a Page of paper, or; less). The Women CAN do the molds. It's 3-D Art. There's alot of imagining from functionings of things in the Pages and their writing that create a relic as they conclude in whole reaching.

You can climb the Heights of Adventure just making my Game. And you can explore real Caverns of Learning... as you can really find new Wisdom to discover. So you CAN truly be an Adventurer learning good or not from Peak Stacks and reaching the Heights while making a perfectly-balanced Table-top Rpg. Game Module... as there are all those new things to learn... and real new Wisdom.


Ok, it looks like I can work with Publishing my Game Module on there. But I will do a Boardgame for you. It's a regular Boardgame. It's called: SPIDER WEBS. And its technical Business Name is EMO WEBS.


No. I already got a Publisher Account. I started downloading an "Office" while I was waiting for answer about whether we HAVE to use PDF. It looks like it. I already got a "Word' Converter" for the Office. Nice Boardgame, and it's got Gods and from those Times.

Ya' know, those Two Trophies can still be depleted without anyone earning any; because they are even IN the World. And it's Gods. So anything mysteriously could happen. Like Something Mystical. Or a "Curse Predatorist" or a Demon.

My "Office" is almost downloaded. I have to Number my Pages. I still don't know if they do the Artwork. It looks like I have the OPTION to. But I don't do real good.


I had to change the Office I downloaded, I got a different One. And I already found a decent Word to PDF Converter. I'm gonna put my descriptions of Art in the First Two Pages or whatever for the Front and Back Cover.

I still have to Number the Pages before converting. If I have to do the Art, I'll just put it simply; and have it done pretty quick. I have to read the guidelines again for presenting it.


Does anyone here do Artwork for a Bookcover?


Ok. I got all my introduction up to look-at for Selling. Thanks for your help.

Do I have to upload my whole book before a Publisher comes to knowing it's there for sale? There doesn't seem to be a way to get my PDF file on. Just my Cover Image and Price and everything.


Oh:p I might-as-well have put a CATALOG Description in. I was only thinking of how I don't write on the Back Cover, so there's nothin' ta' say on that>:p


Ok. I sent the request for them to review a new print file. Sorry, I didn't know to upload the whole Game Module First; and then hit that button. Thanks again.

And another thing from the same guy:


Rpgs. here to Stay as Rpgs.

Rpgs. are below guns, lasers, FPSs that would be nothing but the hack-and-slash-only that everyone making an Rpg. tries to stay away from, grenades and fun-seeking-missiles. Good. I like Rpgs. that are deprived and under a dark blanket of long struggling with all the eyes watching towards the sky(The bottom of the blanket) where all the GODS are(That aRe like guns and missiles and everything). If you have something in the world more powerful than a God, then you sure
out-played this fantasy of magical, medieval times. If you can't think of something, you lost your wings. That we, in the Rpg. world are below those weapons:

We soar on the Wings of Fire(Our nearest campfire for a weapon in case of emergencies). The long walks in the forests that breathe swamps for air are good for
our Level-one "Flash-fire" spell instead of that long-lasting bug-spray: Good. Now, if they're not gonna' make a bug-spray gun, I wouldn't know. Anyway, our
long look at what the quest-end might be(Or possible one) is a good missile. Good. That we can blast our way to the ends of making a complete Rpg: Good.

~Anyone can ramble on here as much as they like: I don't need ta' say anything~

Oct 25, 2010

It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.
Oven Wrangler

Guilty Spork posted:

Submitted without comment, because there's just nothing I could say.

Emphasis added for the part where it gets not just crazy but creepy:

And another thing from the same guy:

I think we found the intersection of TTRPGs and the Sovereign Citizen movement.

-~-Grog Tax-~-
Regarding the Pathfinder Inquisitor class:


I’m not terribly fond of abilities which function only in combat. There’s a certain verisimilitude to the judgement abilities, since they are god-given strength to mete out justice. But that’s the slippery slope to 4th editionism!

Sep 10, 2003

peed on;

LongDarkNight posted:

I think we found the intersection of TTRPGs and the Sovereign Citizen movement.
It's been a while since we've had an RPG designed by an actual schizophrenic come to light. Somebody should hook Drizzt Moonshadow up with the guy behind HYBRID.

HYBRID posted:

RULE # 96 : To figure out how long it will take to write a novel or work of non-fiction @ C3 or C2 DP, you can use the soul equation for serious depth, else cloning equation. But, a much easier alternative would be or might be RULE # 3. But, for this stunt, a still more oversimplification of this might be [[(his C3 DP) / (your C3 DP)]*(time it took him to write his book)]. So, if he’s @ 50 C3 DP & it took him 5 years to write his book, and if you’re @ 10 C3 DP, then it should take you 5x this amount, meaning it should take you 25 years to write a similar book @ similar depth to that written by someone @ 50 C3 DP; but, this latter method or equation contradicts the soul equation, but doesn’t contradict the cloning equation, as predicted by RULE # 28. Look @ RULE # 1, # 18, #28, & # 34 for soul equation vs. cloning equation, else RULE # 3.

RULE # 1 : Binary logic [soul equation] is far superior than fuzzy logic [cloning equation], as much as electromagnetism is greater than gravity. But, binary logic or / & the soul equation seem to display properties of gravity for damage scale ; while, fuzzy logic or / & the cloning equation seem to display properties of electromagnetism for its damage scale : both seem to show a SEMBIOTIC relationship to & upon one another. If recall correctly, there was some research done some time ago by professional scientists & engineers to unify gravity & electromagnetism : I wonder if connection between binary & fuzzy logic can be applied to gravity & electromagnetism to show or display a SEMBIOTIC relationship between the two. Both are necessary for a balanced co-existence, like the male & female gender, where the female gender would be analogous to binary logic & the male gender would be analogous to fuzzy logic. Look @ RULE # 34, # 78, # 80, & # 83.

RULE # 45 : C1 = CA^LOG10(CA) ; C2 = C1^LOG10(C1) ; and, C3 = C2^LOG10(C2). There are other units, but these are the most important & most often used in Hybrid (rpg) role playing game. For latter for types of units, look @ RULE # 46.

RULE # 46 : The other units : 49.28 C3 = 98.562 [2xC3] = 98.562 @ [2xC3] = 20 C2 = 40 [2xC2] = 40 @ [2xC2] = 368.635 [C2x2] = 368.635 @ [C2x2] by (20*2)^LOG10(20*2) = 40^LOG10(40) = 368.635. This rule is used to explain point system of other role playing game in terms of point distribution(s) depicted according to rules in & of HYBRID role playing game.

Let's say a perfectly good looking tall adult Caucasian male has 72 C3 DP [ WHAT the rest of us might consider an elite or elitist would have an IQ of 147 by my IQ equation according to RULE # 7 : 14.7^LOG10(14.7) = 23.05 C2, where 23.05^LOG10(23.05) = 71.92 C3 DP ] or 2x that of an average adult African American male, he can more easily take it easy & still get good grades in his college class according the above equation & RULE # 2 EXPLAINS BELOW.

Nov 11, 2009

FMguru posted:

It's been a while since we've had an RPG designed by an actual schizophrenic come to light. Somebody should hook Drizzt Moonshadow up with the guy behind HYBRID.

I like how this is just a big pile of overcomplicated math with way too many variables - really, logarithmic exponents? - and then suddenly whoops, let's drop something really racist at the end. Comes out of nowhere.


Error 404
Jul 17, 2009


Guilty Spork posted:

Submitted without comment, because there's just nothing I could say.
It's like the RPG version of one of those Nigerian spam emails.

Oh what the gently caress!?


Complaining about Pretentious Storygames after he posted a link to the KS page for Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-granting Engine posted:

I actually think that is an example of the kind of game that The RPGPundit rallies again, but probably in it's worse form.

At least with some of the story games or Nobillis or other games he complains about you have a clear idea about what the game is about. The idea may be stupid, but at least you have an idea. This game, I wouldn't know what to do with it.

And it scares me how way far past the goal it went.

Emphasis mine. :laffo:

Oct 30, 2013

You can have the last word, but I'll have the last laugh!
After reading 5th Edition's paragraph on sex and gender, the Gaming Den discusses the inclusion of gender identity in RPGs!


Yeah, I'd say an straightforward observation on complexity and culture, then a sentence or two magic and you're pretty much done. A paragraph on hyena sex/gender is derailing (and going to get you 'oh that furry game' tag pretty quick) and the aside to hermaphrodites (true, otherwise or whatever) kind of wanders off topic and confuses itself.

I wouldn't call 5e's bit progressive, exactly, but the 'these things exist and are normal' is probably the limit of what you want to do before you hit the train to preachy town.

That said, if the game's focus is on exploring culture and sexuality, then, yeah, it needs to be a bit bigger. If its about shooting fools in the face because a car chase/gunfight with ogres on the Golden Gate Bridge is awesome, it's a little extraneous.


This is going to sound really really insensitive, but honestly there are no winners and only losers when you try to get into the nitty gritty of gender identification terminology. There is no term that people use for self identification that other people don't find offensive. There is no pejorative term that is not used by some for self identification. The old adage that you can't please all of the people all of the time applies in force to gender identity terminology, and since you're talking about peoples' personal gender identification people are legitimately personally offended when they happen to be some of the people who aren't pleased at any particular time.

I'm pretty sure I actually drove Ceiling Cat away from this board by stubbornly insisting that gender reassignment surgery was a cosmetic surgery that didn't change your internal biology and also had an unfortunately high rate of complications and patient dissatisfaction. I'm sorry about that, but the unfortunate medical reality is that gender reassignment surgery that we can do right now is actually not that great in a lot of ways. And while that would seem to be generally uncontroversial, it was apparently important enough to her identity as a human being that this option was magic that merely discussing the medical realities of what current procedures were capable of was considered a friendship ending offense.

There is nothing you can say or do that will make it better. No matter how many letters you add to LGBT, there will always be someone who feels left out and someone who feels that one of the letters you used stands for something that offends them. The fact that something is technically true is no defense at all; because many peoples' personal gender identities importantly hinge on believing something counterfactual.

People have personally defined gender identities, and that's fine. But if you get any more specific than that you're walking into a god drat mine field where anything at all could be the equivalent of making GBS threads on their Koran.



Uh, why is this necessary again? Unless you're introducing rules unique to transgender experiences, this really has no place in an RPG. poo poo, if you're going to include trans-sexuality why not include a little essay on how some people like to put on animal costumes when they have consensual sex and that's a perfectly valid life choice they can make. Or write a paragraph about how some people choke themselves while masturbating- you can bring up your suffocation rules when you do so!

In other words: don't put this poo poo in an actual game. Nobody loving cares about your sexuality at the game table, and unless you're playing a weird loving game nobody really cares about your character's sexuality either. There's a goddamn reason almost every game table has a 'fade to black' response whenever sex comes up.


I'm in. Leave the binary terms for the Westboro Baptist Church. Eveybody else on the planet is now part of "The Alphabets" and has to spend an unhealthy amount of time listening to Imagine.

Side note: nobody has made a ten hour loop of that for me to amusingly link to? YouTube, I am disappoint.


To add, most players prefer to keep sex and gender issues out of their tabletop games and discussion of them is a waste of page space.

Even in a game with cis gendered characters, the gender of a character is rarely going to be relevant past knowing what pronoun to use. Before getting into the issue, I would ask myself how this would be relevant to the player's games.

Although you could argue that, even if it doesn't matter to the game, including it will attract progressive types and you make enough money off that to justify inclusion.


Because adding a few paragraphs on gender identities will net you a decent bit of money and publicity off social justice warriors. No, it doesn't matter to the game at all, but it does influence your bottom line.

Its the same reason to include a gay character, black character, disabled character etc even if it doesn't matter to your game. Some of your customers love this stuff.


So you're telling me that, to be inclusive of every human being on
Earth, you are going to put shout-outs in your game that reminds everyone of the following minority groups who would like representation:

Little people
Ethnic minorities
Chinese nationalists in Taiwan

Because if you don't plan on including everyone in your little crusade you're just being a loving hypocrite, picking the one thing you care about and telling every other group to gently caress off. Here's a goddamn line you can put in your game: "You can be whatever the gently caress you want to be in your game of make-believe, whether that includes gender identity, race, or unusual physical characteristics."


From my comfy seat in the Straight White Dude Club, all this stuff bores me immensely. I'm a staunch ally, though, in the Voltaire sense.

But those asshats making up new lingo on their blog with a readership of 30 people, and bitching at me for not magically being aware of it, they can go gently caress themselves right in their orifice of choice.

"Seven items, plus/minus two". Let's see..."straight, gay, bi, likes to crossdress, wrong bits for their gender, both genders or none, non-human". 7 categories. That's about the maximum number of categories I (and thus by extension any sane, intelligent, reasonable person) can be arsed to give a gently caress about.

And that's me meeting the rainbow halfways. My actual sorting algorithm goes "Fuckable? Y/N".


I think this highlights why gender really doesn't matter. I am not going to have sex with anyone in my RPGs, so gender really doesn't matter.

If someone announced their character is transgender, my only thought would be "I really hope this person doesn't try to turn this into a game about gender issues.".


And I have no issue with the player putting transgender on their character sheet, but it won't come up in play unless someone is already set on bringing up gender issues. Games don't operate like novels. You aren't going to get intelligent discussion between two characters about a heated topic. Just heavy handed messages or fighting.

The arguments I am hearing boil down to "Include it to make transgender people feel good", which comes at the detriment of the actual game(by using up page space).

To be fair, the OP of the original thread self-identifies as both male and female, and several posters were supportive of inclusion, but the above posts...yeeeesh. The bolded parts are particularly hideous.

What's more ironic is that the Gaming Den's, politically speaking, pretty hard left on a lot of issues. Frank's comment in particular was surprising to me, as he was pretty much saying "there's no point in even trying for inclusion" when he's criticized the more sexist and bigoted aspects of the table-top and video game fandom in the past (he's a supporter of Anita Sarkeesian).

Libertad! fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jul 27, 2014

Apr 20, 2007

Are you happy now?

Winson_Paine posted:

- Must post grog. This is the big one. Your post can certainly comment on some funny grog, but the last thread was overwhelmed with low effort slackers riding the jocks of the real grogposters. Don't post grog, something bad will happen to you. Commentary on previous posts is fine, or discussing grog, but you gotta bring a pie to the buffet if you do.


General Ironicus
Aug 21, 2008

Something about this feels kinda hinky
4e book burning party:

Jan 18, 2007

I love how he keeps trying to claim he's asking some sort of philosophical question about "the value of THINGS" when he just keeps coming back to Dungeons and Dragons 4e and human excrement.


I've tried to touch on this several times but it's not sticking ... maybe because I'm using too extreme an example?

The poo poo I flush every morning has value to someone. Why are these books in a different situation? I'm not making a point here that "4e is poo poo!". I'm trying to ask a very basic & fundamental question: we're attaching some kind of unrealistic value to THINGS. Why? Because people worked on the 4e books? People worked on the junk mail I get every day. What's special here? I don't know that I have an answer, but I see the question.
Oh, sorry, junk mail. That definitely proves you're asking an honest philosophical question and not trying and failing to disguise the fact you burned a book because you hate the authors.

Nov 22, 2011

"You're talking to cats."
"And you eat ghosts, so shut the fuck up."
In all honesty, though, I'm not finding the people he's arguing with a whole lot better here.

OP posted:

It's absolutely existential. The poo poo is valuable to someone [I'm think specifically of the high value treated human waste brings as fertilizer ... no poo poo!], and by association EVERYTHING is valuable to SOMEONE. Which would mean ... I'm never allowed to dispose of anything because it's valuable to SOMEONE? That's can't be true, especially in a situation where I should be allowed to to as I will with the products of my own labour?Is there ANY resource more valuable than the disappearing grains in the hourglass?

Self-centered/egoistic in what context? I choose to do what I will with my own labour? I COULD take public transport to work and donate my auto funds to charity. Place the line wherever you like ... at some point I can do what I will.

I just can't come to terms with the value of THINGS.

And I totally AM placing the poo poo and the books in the same category ... but I'm also placing EVERYTHING else in that category. What is value and worth?

Commenter posted:

There's a difference between throwing things in the garbage/fire and having a book burning party...

OP posted:

So it's intent that matters? Or the historical baggage?

Commenter posted:

If you have wood to burn it matters if you get friends together, put on white sheets, and make the wood into a cross on someone's lawn.

You heard it here first! Burning a 4th Edition monster manual you own is totally equivalent to the loving KKK burning a cross on someone's lawn.

Jan 6, 2012



This was a special one, just for 4e, to celebrate the return of D&D. It was supposed to take place just before the new starter set was released, but then WOTC went and released it to game stores a week early.

For me this was just some loving around; a nice little bit of performance art prior to the Big Event the next weekend; running 23 people through the starter set in a marathon 12-hour gaming session. A kind of "closing one door to open another", both in a big way. The next morning I took photos of finding the 5e set buried and unscathed in the ashes of fire. Other people had other reasons for attending.

There were heartfelt testimonials from several people. Mine were fairly innocuous and rang through on themes from my reviews: the triumph of The Technocracy over The Traditions, turning an imaginative dream in to mechanistic drudgery. Others were not so kind, and I was a bit surprised at the venom. The splitting of groups, the loss of friendships, the breakup of games and drifting apart of old friends. Forcing people in to Not-D&D in order to play. I guess it's not all that surprising; RPG's are best when they are social games, shared among friends, and combined with the awkwardness that can make social interactions difficult, it's no wonder that there were such strong feelings ... about an elf game.


Also, is that the same Wade Rockett defending the event in the comments?


Apr 10, 2013

by Smythe

Caphi posted:


Also, is that the same Wade Rockett defending the event in the comments?

What. If that's the case, I'll miss purchasing 13th Age books by Pelgrane.

grog tax:


To cleanse our lives of this blight which we have lived under since '07 and prepare for the rebirth of D&D we cordially invite you to join us in a burning of 4.0 materials. This will be a not child friendly, booze filled party worthy of adventurers. Dress as your favorite class or wear you sexiest black t-shirt. Anyone else who'd like to celebrate is welcome to attend.

"AI" sys the man with one arm in the broken down ale house. Grizzled and old, scared, he sits in the corner nursing a broken mug of cheap rank ale. "From the earliest days of exploring the dungeons we've known about it. The fancy feats, the weapon schools, the cantrips ... these things distract you. Remember the wisdom of old and apply your new training! The crowbar! The blanket! The bag of chickens!" He calms down again and with cold steel in his voice says: "We know how to kill an abomination." ... His voice lowers to just a whisper ... "Kill it with fire."

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