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Hey folks, just noticed this thread. I, too, know an embarrassing amount about Nazi Germany, especially the military. I spent a ridiculous amount of my youth reading up on taboo subjects, and the Third Reich was of particular interest.sugar free jazz posted:Would anyone have suggestions on articles or books on German civilian and low ranking military reaction to and opinion of the war, or German civilian and low ranking military reaction to atrocities by Germans and others? I recently read an ok article (The Techniques of Neutralization and the Holocaust) and want to read a bit more about the topic. I'm from a social science background fwiw. Would memoirs work? Blood Red Snow is a good memoir from a cavalry division Corporal. Black Edelweiss, In Deadly Combat and The Forgotten Soldier all come to mind, too, especially TFS. FreudianSlippers posted:The Irish not being proper white people was only really a thing in Britain, as justification for the colonization of Ireland, and America, as anti-immigrant rhetoric, and in America at least it wasn't really a popular view by the time Hitler became a person of interest. I doubt Germans of that era ever gave much thought to the Irish at all. Hitler was chill with pretty much anyone of (relatively) white descent. Notable examples are the Middle Eastern nations of Greek ancestry and the Balkan nations. Obviously, Anglo-Saxons were preferred, but other Caucasian subraces were accepted. ArchangeI posted:Even during the Holocaust, killing a Jew in Germany itself was by German law a murder. The Nazis went through a lot of effort to strip Jews of their German Citizenship before they killed them. There was never a point where the official line was "killing a Jew is not a crime, go hogwild". There is a world of difference between the state killing someone and a private person killing someone (see also: why Police killing a bank robber isn't murder or manslaughter). Adding onto this, according to German law at the time, a member of the armed forces - including the Waffen SS (though legally this was more of a paramilitary group than a constituent of the armed forces) - would be tried in a military court for killing a Jew, prisoner of war or other undesirable, whether on duty or off. I'll post the "Ten Commandments of the Wehrmacht" when I get home - these are particularly interesting with regards to this topic. Here we go...spoilered because this is a huge wall of text: While fighting for victory the German soldier will observe the rules of chivalrous warfare. Cruelties and senseless destruction are below his standard. Combatants will be in uniform or will wear specially introduced and clearly distinguishable badges. Fighting in plain clothes or without such badges is prohibited. No enemy who has surrendered will be killed, including partisans and spies. They will be duly punished by courts. P.O.W. will not be ill-treated or insulted. While arms, maps, and records are to be taken away from them, their personal belongings will not be touched. . . . From 1941 to 1944 the Wehrmacht did not wage a "normal war" in the Balkans and the Soviet Union; this was a war of extermination of Jews, prisoners and the civilian population with millions of victims. . . . . . . [T]he Wehrmacht -- acting together with the SS and the police -- shot and burned women and children, the ill and the old, transforming the land around German bases into a dead zone. . . . Wolfram Wette Dum-Dum bullets are prohibited; also no other bullets may be transformed into Dum-Dum. Red Cross Institutions are sacrosanct. Injured enemies are to be treated in a humane way. Medical personnel and army chaplains may not be hindered in the execution of their medical, or clerical activities. The civilian population is sacrosanct. No looting nor wanton destruction is permitted to the soldier. Landmarks of historical value or buildings serving religious purposes, art, science, or charity are to be especially respected. Deliveries in kind made, as well as services rendered by the population, may only be claimed if ordered by superiors and only against compensation. Neutral territory will never be entered nor passed over by planes, nor shot at; it will not be the object of warlike activities of any kind. If a German soldier is made a prisoner of war he will tell his name and rank if he is asked for it. Under no circumstances will he reveal to which unit he belongs, nor will he give any information about German military, political, and economic conditions. Neither promises nor threats may induce him to do so. Offenses against the a/m matters of duty will be punished. Enemy offenses against the principles under 1 to 8 are to be reported. Reprisals are only permissible on order of higher commands. While I'm not going to contribute to the perpetuation of the "clean Wehrmacht" myth, I think a clear distinction needs to be made between the Waffen SS (who committed most of the "war" war crimes), the Allgemeine SS (those who orchestrated and organised the killings), the Totenkopfverbande SS (those who actually guarded and/or killed Jews en masse in the camps), and the Wehrmacht (the actual armed forces). Noctis Horrendae fucked around with this message at 01:41 on May 5, 2014 |
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May 5, 2014 01:17
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Last Buffalo posted:Yeah, there's still a lot of modern scholarship about how much the Wehrmacht was involved in the killings. In the East, they had their hand in massacring a lot of civilians and "partisans." They had a better record only because their duty was to kill Slavs who might have guns instead liquidating them in the woods. The Eastern Front is definitely an admittedly massive exception to the rule in this case, yeah. I would argue that officers and divisions assigned to the Eastern Front were a lot more ruthless than those who stayed in Western Europe. Also, the most war crimes were committed there, so that's a thing.
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May 5, 2014 01:54
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Last Buffalo posted:Rules of war were followed only when it was convenient. I would like to think that they were marginally more civilized, but oh so marginally. Also, that point goes for every war and country ever, not just Germany in World War II.
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May 5, 2014 02:29
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Pornographic Memory posted:If the largest theater of war by far for the Wehrmacht was the eastern front, wouldn't the "honorable " behavior they exhibited in the West actually constitute the exception? That depends entirely on the period of time we're talking about.
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May 5, 2014 02:39
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Gotta buy this and ironically refer to it as my favourite book.
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May 6, 2014 22:14
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Mr. Sunshine posted:Karl is fourteen years old, and a member of the Hitler Jugend. He is wearing a swastika armband and a hand-me-down helmet several sizes to big, covering behind a sandbag barricade some few hundred meters from the ruins of the Reichstag building in Berlin. In his hands is a panzerfaust, a stick with an anti-tank grenade at the end, constructed in a factory rapidly running out of everything including gunpowder. A soviet IS tank comes rumbling down the street, straight for his position. With tears running down his face, he raises his weapon, and pulls the trigger. It clicks. Haha even I'm not this much of an apologist.
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May 12, 2014 00:50
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Yeah like a full third or something. Italy's war is one long series of comedic errors. Are you forgetting about the Greco-Italian war here? That wasn't THAT bad compared to other World War 2 Italian missteps.
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May 13, 2014 01:35
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gradenko_2000 posted:I would be interested in this. I'm familiar with more than a few wartime atrocities committed by the Japanese, but at times I do wonder just how fascist they were on the ideological and domestic and day-to-day aspects. I've heard that they were worse than the Reich, but that's wholly improbable. Shall we consult ADTRW?
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May 13, 2014 02:31
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We all know that a Japan overview thread would boil down to a unit 731 thread, just like this is essentially a clean Wehrmacht and Holocaust thread.
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May 13, 2014 02:57
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Centripetal Horse posted:Yeah, but it's in German, so that's, what, 200-300 words? Probably 100.
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May 17, 2014 15:13
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What (and when) exactly is the earliest recorded incident of prejudice/oppression/hatred etc. with regards to the Jews?
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May 21, 2014 21:34
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mcustic posted:586 BCE when the Babylonians destroyed the First Temple? Yeah, like the poster below said, I'm more referring to cultural/ethnic aversion.
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May 21, 2014 22:09
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moths posted:This is actually enduring Nazi propaganda. Party reporters came across a battlefield near Krojanty with dead Polish cavalrymen and horses, created a narrative about them charging tanks, and then made a propaganda reel about it. There's a pretty good writeup here and (I think) the "original" footage is here. (There's some dead people and horses, so watch out.) This is really interesting. Surprising how this lasted decades and decades after the war. I still hear this often today.
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May 22, 2014 22:41
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What's that one film about Hitler featuring his bodyguard/chauffeur/valet as the narrator and interviewee? I think it was pretty recent. I distinctly remember it being on Vimeo and having a ridiculously long segment about Hitler's breakfast, which consisted of chocolate and fish. Does anyone know what I'm on about? It erred on the side of being apologist propaganda, if that helps. The opening scene was a bunch of nazi flags in a parade or something.
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May 30, 2014 00:14
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I recall a book named Driving Hitler. Was it based on that? No. It was about an hour long and focused entirely on the bodyguard's account of Hitler's life and what it was like to serve him.
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May 30, 2014 00:55
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JaucheCharly posted:Could it be Rochus Misch? He recently passed away. Thanks so much! This was definitely him! Now it's just a matter of finding the bloody video.  E: http://vimeo.com/m/93163016 Wrong guy, but this is what I was looking for. The picture of Misch is used as the video's icon, which created a bit of confusion. Noctis Horrendae fucked around with this message at 00:31 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 00:10
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Sunshine89 posted:The uploader is also a Hitler worshipper, with a website that confirms it. It's an interesting documentary, though. I'd recommend watching it.
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Jun 6, 2014 18:26
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achillesforever6 posted:But the thing that galled me was that he claimed at some point Hitler and the German government offered the Jews living in Germany 2 million to move to Poland and the Jewish leaders refused. That has to be complete bullshit. This is actually a thing, if I remember right. Or, at least, I read it somewhere. I don't visit any crazy white supremacist sites, so it probably has some validity
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Apr 19, 2015 07:21
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Nintendo Kid posted:I would think that any offers also included the Jews leaving most of their wealth and goods right in Germany. Yeah, that was the catch. Also, wasn't it Austria and not Poland?
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Apr 19, 2015 07:51
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Tell me about Freemasonry and the Holocaust. There's quite literally no information on the Internet about it.
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May 15, 2015 18:50
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