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Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
Aren't the White Wolf Kickstarters purely for the print and deluxe versions?

If so, that's perfectly fine by me - they're putting out a niche product/the deluxe version of a niche product and using KS as a means to essentially get people to preorder before they start printing the books, to make sure there's enough interest for them to be able to afford print. That's the kind of thing KS should be used for, and isn't really different from "my game is finished, the KS is to print the book" style Kickstarts.

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Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

palecur posted:

I must disagree. Kickstarter is precisely a store, and moreover, a store where I can get things I can't get anywhere else.

It's not a store. You're not buying anything, nor are you getting a legally backed goods-for-money exchange. It's a website via which you can donate money to people and companies, and to make you want to donate they promise you certain things which Kickstarter's ToS say they have to make their best effort to deliver on.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Kai Tave posted:

Does Kickstarter take any sort of legal action? That seems like it'd be a pretty nebulous suit to try and pursue. Or is that ToS mostly just a pro forma thing in this case?

The latter. That stuff is in Kickstarter's Terms of Use, and those have no force of law (like every other ToS).

ravenkult posted:

So it's nothing like a store, because you have none of the legal rights and protections that would apply to buying something online.

Amazingly enough this is actually an important distinction. That in 90% of cases you get something in exchange for a donation doesn't suddenly make it a store where you are buying a thing.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Apr 5, 2013

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I gave a man money and he sent me a game. If that's not a store, what is that?

It's giving a man money and a man sending you a game. You did not buy a game. The two are not the same thing, despite having the same end result. No one is pretending anything; the word donation is being used because that's what giving money on Kickstarter is.

One of these things involves a whole lot of legal protections afforded to you as a customer, the other is literally the equivalent to just mailing a tenner to someone.

e; this was posted in the DW thread:

Flavivirus posted:

Sage just posted a big breakdown of how DW is doing in the marketplace: http://www.latorra.org/2013/04/04/dungeon-worlds-first-5-months/

It's really interesting comparing that to Apocalypse World - DW's non-kickstarter sales in 5 months come to 2652, whereas AW's sales over 3 years are only 2830 (from here: http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=707). I can't help but wonder which was the bigger factor: the advertisement provided by the Kickstarter and the higher visibility and ease of use of DTRPG, or the more accessible D&D-like style.

We're still not talking riches here, but this is a pretty huge deal for an indie game. I wonder if this bodes a future in which indie games are, if not greatly profitable, at least enough to live on.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Apr 5, 2013

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Crackbone posted:

My point is you can argue semantics all you want, but what most people are seeing is "pay A, get B".

I hate to break it to you, but "what most people are seeing" does not actually define reality.

Crackbone posted:

but we insist that project creators have to delivered promised goods based on the amount your gave them.

Promised rewards, not promised good. They are pretty explicit about that. The fact that a lot of KSes have goods as pledge rewards does not make pledge rewards and goods the same thing.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
I can't speak for anything except the Funhaver sales, but the DW classes have consistently sold well whereas the GM stuff hasn't sold at all.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Bucnasti posted:

I would like to request a list of everyone who backs this KS, so I can be sure to NEVER EVER PLAY ANYTHING WITH THEM.

Fortunately, KS makes it all available at the click of a link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1019114683/the-misery-index-terrible-games-about-terrible-rea/backers

jivjov posted:

The problem with this analogy is that in this case, the game is not being forced on you. The creators are not coming to your house, sitting you down, and making you play the game.

Nobody is forcibly "taking a poo poo on your carpet".

No, instead they're coming and making GBS threads into the collective pool that we all play in (the tradgames industry), and for some reason you expect everyone to be okay with that because these guys are taking a poo poo in the other corner right this moment.

It's a pool. The turds they poo poo into the water are contaminating the whole thing for everyone involved.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Aug 6, 2013

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
I'm amazed how fast people will fall over themselves to defend Misery Index. As a reminder, here's what the people making it have to say about their motivations:

quote:

At Misery Tourism Games, we design tabletop games about vice, inhumanity and suffering. We make terrible games about terrible people in terrible situations.

We don't design games to make a moral point or push an agenda. We don't design games to offend you or your sociology professor or your congressman. We do it because we believe there is fun to be had in exploring tragedy and depravity with your friends in the safety of your kitchen, den or mother's basement.

They're not doing it to explore the human condition or create a meaningful dialogue, they're doing it because they're sick fucks, by their own admission. I'm not sure what else you need to condemn them and their actions, really.

I'm sure it's theoretically possible for a game to approach this topic in a way that is respectful of the victims and which treats the subject with the appropriate maturity and level of gravitas, but it's not going to be a game made by the people who wrote the above.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

jivjov posted:

I've never heard of a mod challenge before now

For your edification, there is literally a link to the SA encyclopaedia at the top of this and every single page on the SA forums. Here is the article for mod challenges: http://forums.somethingawful.com/dictionary.php?act=3&topicid=2202

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

MisterShine posted:

So basically they made a license that would seemingly only be used for homebrews, which nobody would ever actually buy/use?

Fun fact: if you even so much as make house rules for his lovely system which recycles the 3.5 Wizard spell list nearly verbatim, he could demand you fork over $50 or C&D you, because the "license" doesn't define what counts as publishing content for his game. This is in direct contradiction of his "fan use policy."

Monte Cook: Pay Me For The Privilege Of Making Homebrew Content For My Game

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Fenarisk posted:

but the guy selling his lovely non professional playbooks on DTRPG shouldn't even be close to a reality, yet it is.

Would you care to clarify what makes playbooks that someone is selling "non-professional?" Because the actual definition of "professional" (as in "professional sports") is "you make money from this."

Or are you actually saying that only established game designers should be allowed to charge money for stuff they make, and that established game designers actually spawn fully-formed from the æther?

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
They're also in the great position of actively making their games worse for the sake of selling more miniatures, which means they only really have traction with experienced hobbyists because they've been around for a while and people will pretty much play anything uncritically for nostalgia's sake in the TT wargame/elfgame industry.

Business Gorillas posted:

"Getting your feet wet in the hobby" now involves buying a rulebook and a codex, which is ~$135, plus something like ~$200 worth of models. That's around $300 to just try out the game.

"Getting your feet wet in the hobby" involves finding a skirmish-scale game and dropping maybe $100 tops on models for it. GW games are not "the hobby," even though they're the public face of it for a lot of people.

Really, GW being bought out by Hasbro (not going to happen) or the entire management being fired and replaced with people who aren't the stupidest, most short-sighted business managers is the best thing that could possibly happen to the tabletop wargaming industry at this point.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Leperflesh posted:

The question I'm raising, though, is: is it ethical for just anyone to make that game?

Uh, yes. It is. Studio Ghibli don't own the rights to whimsical fairy-tale-like stories inspired by Japanese folklore.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

stoutfish posted:

So what can you possibly do then, in this accursed titty model world?

Stop sitting around and going "oh, well, what can you do?" and instead start calling out lovely people. If someone you know personally likes dumb titty models, let them know it's not okay. If a company you buy from is making dumb titty models, make noise on twitter and forums about how it's not okay. If you see people attempting to defend excluding women from tabletop wargaming for any reason, call them out as the lovely human beings they are.

Stop letting this poo poo stand.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Thank you for this article that clearly shows that boobplate is in no way becoming "more accurate for modern armour," and for the other article that doesn't show any boobplate at all.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Sarx posted:

I doubt its them though.

MWP are well known for not paying people.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

ravenkult posted:

Wait, why the gently caress is Mikan banned.

Mikan self-banned a while ago.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

GrandpaPants posted:

I'm afraid to ask, but did WOTC do anything recently (I haven't been paying attention to 5e) to act as the negative contrast in this situation?

tl;dr, without dragging this into another derail:

WotC paid some really lovely people (we're talking "sic your fans on people you disagree with to send them IRL death threats, call for the death of all storygamers and use people's gender identity/sexuality to harass them" lovely) to "consult" on making their lovely grog game shittier and groggier. When some of the harassed people complained, Mearls asked for proof, which was emailed to him, then proceeded to email one of the lovely people to go "it's all good, I looked over the evidence and none of it is true."

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
Boardgames rather than RPGs, but: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=5212

Can't say I saw this coming; both Asmodée and FFG have been doing well, and it's unusual for a big French company to work with anything that isn't German. I wonder what this means long-term for boardgame publishing.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

moths posted:

Or is it "this game is fiction so that isn't racist?"

It's this.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

PresidentBeard posted:

Reign has the thing where men can't ride horses into combat.

No, Reign has a thing where some of the cultures in the setting have a taboo against men not riding side-saddle.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Gravy Train Robber posted:

but why am I on John Wick's contact list

Does he have an estore, or sell on the unstore? Maybe he has all the addresses from that saved as contacts.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
Really, "WotC hires idiot who can't design but is popular for working on a knockoff of a lovely game" just about sums up everything you could expect about 5e. :haw:

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

paradoxGentleman posted:

But why the hell is that?

Because their entire management is really loving stupid.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Quarex posted:

Though somehow I imagine someone out of the gaming hobby between 1974 and 2014 is not a good candidate for a resurgence of old-school game design.

That would just make someone fit right in with the OSR, since it's hell-bent on pretending the last 30-40 years of advances in game design and social justice never happened. :v:

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

paradoxGentleman posted:

How does one simulate themes in an RPG? I immagine genre conventions are easier to simulate once you have located them.

The exact same way you enforce/simulate genres, i.e. through mechanics. Is one of the themes of your game scarcity? Have mechanically-enforced scarcity and mechanics that revolve around scarcity and addressing scarcity (cf. AW's barter system, rules for hardholds/gangs/congregations and general theme).

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Toph Bei Fong posted:

:words: reasons why TOR is one of the best RPGs ever designed

On that same topic, it's worth checking out Technoir for another game that has pitch-perfect mechanical enforcement of theme.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

paradoxGentleman posted:

At this point I feel like I should ask: what system would you use to stat Conan?

I feel like either FATE or GURPS could pull it off, but that feels like cheating because those are generic, all-purpose systems that are designed to cover a lot of ground.

You have two options:

1) generic systems designed to cover a lot of ground, which will let you stat up someone who was never designed as an RPG character but was designed as a literary protagonist whose abilities don't fit within the narrow mould of existing RPG protagonists.

2) systems specifically designed to let you stat up Conan and emulate sword and sorcery.

D&D literally fails at statting up Conan because it is neither a generic system that can accommodate him nor a specifically designed system that can accommodate him. D&D doesn't have mechanics that can support the kind of hyper-competent characters or fiction of the Conan stories.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
Fate (especially FAE) do it just fine, really.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

paradoxGentleman posted:

Was that a real personal belief of Howard's or just something that was true in his stories?
I would imagine the first but it would not be the first time that an influential fantasy author believes something bizarre.

It was a real, personal belief of Howard's.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

ProfessorCirno posted:

Geralt ain't the guy who struts around and grabs whatever ladies he wants, he's the universal booty call. He's meat on the block.

By nature, he's a guy who is physically fit, has superhuman stamina, is sterile, cannot catch STDs, has no attachments, is a social pariah whose word will never be trusted if he tries to mention that he slept with the Lord's wife, and as a result of that, is also a very experienced lover. Essentially, part and parcel of being a witcher in Sapkowski's works involves become the perfect deniable booty call.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Serf posted:

Wait, wait, his problem with the game is that somehow, playing the good guys and doing good guy things is fascist when you suddenly are no longer the underdog?

Pundit is a creepy American who hides out in South America while preaching about how storygamers are the corrupt invaders despoiling the purity of RPGs and they must be purged from existence to save the sacred institution of D&D. More or less his entire shtick is regurgitating fascist rhetoric while espousing far-right viewpoints, and then claiming he's totally not a fascist, guys.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

alg posted:

why do these "libertarian gamers" care so much what games other people decide to play

Because libertarians.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

moths posted:

E: Clearly presented, accessible, and riding a tidal-wave of cultural Harry Potter / LotR relevancy.

So The One Ring, then?

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

ICV2 numbers are notoriously completely meaningless. That's literally why people are complaining that neither Paizo nor WotC release numbers.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
Both 4E and Pathfinder have an entire book dedicated to teaching people how to make characters, which is a starting point at least.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Evil Mastermind posted:

Then let's change the topic!

Is Wil Wheaton's Web Series "Titansgrave" The Perfect RPG Ambassador?

I know a lot of people around here aren't Wheaton fans or like the AGE system, but the article does raise two good points: first off, there are Wheaton fans who don't play RPGs who might get started because of the series (which is a good thing), but also that people who start playing RPGs because of this game wouldn't be starting with D&D, which has traditionally been the entry point into the hobby.

The whole package of art/music/professional voiceover with young, attractive professional actors playing the game is pretty good for ambassadorship, yeah. I guess it also helps that AGE still has dexterity and strength checks, too.

On the other hand, ugh, AGE, ugh, boring fantasy races and ugh, Wil Wheaton's face. :v:

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jul 10, 2015

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Evil Mastermind posted:

I realize this is just anecdotal, but I've found that people who start gaming with something other than D&D tend to be more open to trying new systems. Something about D&D/PF seems to just lock people into that game (probably a sunk cost fallacy).

It's an anecdote pretty much everyone I know also reports, so I'm pretty sure it's not just you. The problem is that AGE is still too close to D&D for comfort, really. It'd be better starting people off on Monsterhearts or Apocalypse World (or Dungeon World, if you want to show RPGs that look like what non-RPG-players think RPGs should look like).

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Oh god no, not Monsterhearts. It's an amazing game but when I've tried explaining it to non-RPG people they look at me in shock and confusion.

paradoxGentleman posted:

Yeah, Monsterhearts is a bit of a tough sell for a neophyte.

Anecdotal I know, but everyone I know who doesn't play RPGs has been way more into the idea of "high school monster romance drama" than dungeon-crawling or post-apocalyptic stuff. You just need to pitch it as "like Twilight but without all the glorification of abusive relationships and creepy secondary characters falling in love with babies." :v:

The trick is to find a game that has enough of a system that using it well is something they can learn, but isn't rules-heavy (because it needs to be easy for new players to learn in its entirety) and has player participation (so they learn good habits before bad ones). I normally start people on Fiasco and then get them to apply what they learned from it to playing PbtA games.

Feng Shui 2 would probably be a pretty good one too, actually, since it's not very complicated and 90% of the rule is schticks the players will never see.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Jul 11, 2015

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Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

frankenfreak posted:

I feel like all these new names for stuff are missing a TM at the end.

It's all a response to them not being allowed to trademark "space marines," so yeah.

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