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lodoubt posted:Saying Index ruins every scene she's in is probably an understatement, I might use the verb 'defile'. Hell I even liked Touma initially and then he was ruined by her. INDEX SPOILERS IE lost his memory and became a one dimensional moralfag. Moralfag? Edit: I really hope this series cuts down on the completely pointless filler the first series had, like the VR beach episode.
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May 16, 2013 18:15
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I just wish that the writers had been a little more liberal in adapting the story to Mikasa's POV. As it is, she rages against everything for a half dozen episodes, ultimately accomplishes nothing, and then Touma shows up to fix everything. It worked better in Index, contrivances aside, because Touma was the focal character and Mikasa the side-kick. Just switching the POV makes everything a bit empty, if only because she ultimately solves bugger all. Rewriting the story, giving Mikasa more agency, and making Touma less of a deus ex machina would go a long way in improving things.
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Jul 14, 2013 02:53
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ChronoReverse posted:Meh, I find it great. I never watched Index but a hero of a story doesn't have to be the one who does everything. To clarify, it's that everything Mikasa did was irrelevant. The experiments continue, the sisters continue to die. Then Touma comes and fixes everything. It's really bad writing, if only because the writers are so loyal to the story laid out in Index. In not deviating from that, it lacks closure. This is all independent of Index, which has far worse problems than Touma being a bit boring.
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Jul 14, 2013 03:34
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ChronoReverse posted:We'll just have to disagree because here we have a character who was able to take care of everything in season one but now is absolutely pinned into a corner despite all the best efforts and intentions. It's interesting to me because she doesn't have all the answers or the power to just wipe it away. She didn't really do anything wrong but in put in a horrible position (and it doesn't help that's she's just a middle-schooler in the end). I agree as far as saying Mikasa shouldn't be able to solve everything on her own. The problem is: Touma appears and fixes everything. Its the same problem as Index, where episodes were spent setting up a (lovingly animated) scene he would punch a ten year old bondage nun and 'fix' them. But he's had very little screentime here, he's very underdeveloped, so his appearance is a little incongruous. Railfun is a series that can, for the most part, stand alone from Index, but Touma's importance in this arc does more harm than good. Railgun is usually quite light-hearted. Sure there's violence and dangerous powers, but despite that, the good guys always save the day and restore order. It's a very feel-good show. Having Mikasa powerless and impotent in the face of overwhelming evil is such violent change that it feels out of place in the series. I like it, but I just don't think it was handled well enough. In all honesty, Touma is nowhere near as bad as people make out. Index had far worse problems, like its constant sexualisation of 10-15 year old girls. He's bland, but that's about it. It is, however, hilarious that despite losing all his memories, he's exactly the same as he was before. He's the ultimate distillation of the bland shounen hero.
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Jul 14, 2013 04:40
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SatansBestBuddy posted:That's kinda funny, I actually think they handled it drat near perfectly. Any other series would probably try to keep the light hearted tone while everything in the story is actually grim as gently caress, so I'm glad Railgun S at least had the decency to go full boor and admit, hey, this is some seriously dark stuff that's pretty distressing to watch, so we should portray it as such. It shows that the team behind this show have some flexibility and are totally comfortable with 180'ing the show's tone if the material calls for it. It's still got the same flippant, irrelevant tone as most of the series. Frenda and the gang are more of the wacky characters from feel-good Railgun. Sure they're psychotic killers, but it's still played off as harmless, not 'real' danger. It's not treated with the same levity as the rest of the arc. I have no idea what the writers were going for with the scientist girl. She disappeared, and nobody seems to care that she did. Just up and vanished. SatansBestBuddy posted:Constant sexualization of girls regardless of age is a continual problem for anime in general, and Index has problems that are even worse than that. I would say Touma is definitely one of them, if not outright the worst of them, and not because he's bland, but because he's continually involved in poo poo that has nothing to do with him. Ever. You think him jumping to Misaka's help is bad, at least it's in the same drat city he is supposed to live in. On the same continent that he lives in. Involving people he's previously interacted with at some point. There are some arcs in Index that he seriously has no loving reason at all to be there for, and yet there he is, [Index spoiler]in the middle of loving Europe stopping a loving Navy full of loving nuns by punching someone in the face really loving hard. The paedophilia is still an incredibly toxic problem. Sexualisation is problem for all media, anime more than others, but the paedo angle is especially noticeable in anime, Index in particular. It's all the more noticeable because it has no place in the story. Touma isn't the reason the narrative is poo poo, he's just a by-product of larger problems. The whole conflict is driven by a secret/cold war between Espers and the (Catholic?) church, which has potential, but plays out as a fist-fight between ridiculous stereotypes and violent manchild. His naivety isn't really refuted by the narrative. If anything, it reinforces it. The bad guys (girls) generally mellow out after that lovingly animated punch, and, as you say, join the harem. Railgun would be infinitely better if it wasn't linked to such a vile series. Don't get me wrong, I do genuinely enjoy this series, it's an improvement over the (good) first series. The problems of the Index universe naturally leak over in the crossover arc and the series is worse for it.
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Jul 14, 2013 07:16
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veekie posted:I figure that was the whole point. She spends a lot of her screentime remarking that people who oppose the city get disappeared. Point. The last you see her is climbing down into darkness isn't it?
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Jul 14, 2013 07:32
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ArchangeI posted:What? No, the last you see of her is slung over the shoulder of a mook, presumably to be taken to the incinerator or a secret torture prison. Oh dear, I was really off. That is far better closure than I thought it was, my bad. SatansBestBuddy posted:I would never, ever, ever say this without some really, really strong evidence. Sex is awesome, I highly advocate you all go get laid today. I should have clarified I meant the creepy leering sexualisation  I last saw Index as it was airing, so a few of memories are a little fuzzy, but yeah, Touma's pretty mercenary, fighting for whoever best serves his interests. At the root of it, the characters don't really grow. Things happen, but they might of well been a dream for all the character development they serve. I think Index the character is a good metaphor for the series itself: has the potential to be really interesting, but is ultimately a weird pandering thing, flailing from one zany scene to the next. Side characters tended to fade into the aether, save for brief, blink-and-you'll-miss-it cameos. A quick search shows that the guy who writes the Index light novels also wrote (writes?) the Railgun manga. So the guy can do character growth, he just chooses not too, because it would upset the status quo of his bizarro world. There was also an uncomfortable misogynistic undertone, especially in the second series. I can't pin down if it was the downright brutal punches the female villains received, or the savage glee the fans took in these acts, or both. The fact that these blows 'pacified' the unruly women was just the cherry on the sundae. It was just something I noticed, and coupled with underage, prepubescent looking characters in string bikinis, gave the series a much skeevier tone than it might otherwise have had. Reivax fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Jul 14, 2013 |
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Jul 14, 2013 08:39
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fivegears4reverse posted:I think you're giving a bit too much credit to the craziness of some characters while ignoring the actual dark poo poo that has been constantly implied throughout this season (and Index and the first season of Railgun in general) in order to try and make a point. You're right that the seedier, dark side of Academy City was always there, but it's not given much notice. In many ways I think this makes it more effective, a shame that it isn't properly explored. The omnipresent gangs, the brutal human experimentation, the threat of sexual violence against the heroes, the heavily armed police (some of whom moonlight as school teachers), the paramilitary child-police, all of these thing are there, in almost every episode, but are glossed over. It's accepted that they exist, and are a part of everyday life, despite the fact that they clash with the utopian, always sunny image of Academy City. The problem is that these dystopian aspects aren't much explored. They'll appear in an episode, but not a lot of thought will be put into them after the fact. Banri is saved from Harumi's inhumane experiments, but it's never talked about afterwards, and everyone is happy and cheerful. I'm happy that they are exploring this in detail beyond simply setting up Touma's latest punch-bag, as I think that the original Index version lacked a lot of the emotional depth. Reivax fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Jul 14, 2013 |
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Jul 14, 2013 10:09
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| # ¿ Apr 18, 2024 05:33 |
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fivegears4reverse posted:You're still pretending Touma isn't important to this particular arc in Railgun just because you don't like him, and are ignoring the fact that Railgun is a side story to Index, where Touma is the main character, and this is originally the Index arc that really introduced Misaka to the audience as an important secondary character as opposed to being just background clutter. You can pretend the Index side of the franchise is totally unnecessary, and that you don't NEED to actually pay it any mind whatsoever, but Railgun S is adapting one of (if not THE) most popular arcs in the whole franchise from the perspective of Misaka. It is still telling the Sisters Arc, not the Friendship and J-Pop Solves Misaka Clone Mulcher Problem This Time Around Arc. As far as most of the people watching the show are concerned, Touma has shown up in Misaka's life multiple times already, and is an important factor in events around Academy City. If anything, this is the 'moment' that actually explains the bond between both characters. A problem in nerd media is this weird adherence to 'canon.' What is canon and what isn't becomes more important than discussing the works themselves, on their own merits. The Alien series, Star Wars, Star Trek, all get sidelined by fussing over details and how it deviates from the accepted canon. Nate RFB is right in saying derivative works shouldn't be slavishly adherent to canon, and should instead be made to work on their own merits. Railgun up until this point was series that could be watched completely independently of Index, but this latest episode drags it kicking and screaming back to canon, which weakens the story considerably. Touma is the main character in Index, Mikasa is the main character in Railgun. My argument isn't so much that Index shouldn't exist, it's that Railgun can be its own work and stand independently of Index. This isn't a documentary, a retelling of real events, it's fiction. It can be written any way he pleases. A certain level of contrivance is to be expected. I can easily suspend disbelief that the kitten chose to pull at the zipper and reveal the all-important documents at that particular moment, but when a peripheral character is suddenly the protagonist, stealing the spotlight. I think a lot of people forget that Touma and Mikasa aren't exactly buddies; he bumps into her a few times, is overly familiar, and is generally an arse. She has every right to be suspicious of this white knight Nice Guy. No one's doubting that Mikasa's decision not to involve her friends is the right one, she's only offered immunity because of her rare power level. But that shouldn't exclude her friends from investigating on their own, but when they come close to doing so, narrative convenience dictates that they can't. The narrative leading to this point isn't necessarily bad for Index, but it's toxic for Railgun.
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Jul 14, 2013 19:52
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