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UPDATE PREVIOUS POST ^^^^^ The basics of the Aldmeri religion can be summed up as such: before Creation, they were immortal spirits, like the Aedra and Daedra, though there was no clear distinction between the two as the primary distinction is 'took part in Creation', which hadn't happened yet. Then Lorkhan (Shor to the Nords, Shezzar to the Imperials) shows up and says "hey I got this great idea to get us all a lot of power", the Aedra say "we'll do it." By Aldmeri tradition, it was a trap- Lorkhan was setting himself up above the other gods, but they, in vengeance, ripped out his heart, stuck it on an arrow, and shot it out of the Adamantine Tower (which still exists as Direnni Tower, on an island in the Iliac Bay, setting of Daggerfall), landing far to the east and forming a volcano, better known as Vvardenfell, the peak of which is Red Mountain. However, then these disgusting things called men came around, and they were the servants of Lorkhan (hence Shor and Shezzar being revered). And so long as worship of Lorkhan persists, the world remains. Aldmer don't like that, they want the world to unravel so that the Aedra, their Ancestors (Daedra literally means "Not Our Ancestors") can come free and everyone ascends, except men since they're lesser than mer. Now, the Talos issue is that Talos fills the hole of Lorkhan in the Imperial pantheon, and thus acts as Lorkhan in terms of 'all belief must die'. Understanding the Aldmeri religion is key to understanding why they loving hate men. They're so far beneath the Altmer that when the Cyrodiilic Dynasty (everyone's new favorite hill baby and descendants) was conquering most of Tamriel, the Altmer, possessors of the single most powerful navy in all of Tamriel, paid tribute to Reman not because they were afraid of him but because the very idea that a man could set foot on their shores was just so horrifying to them that they would do anything to ensure it didn't happen. And naturally, when Tiber Septim took Numidium and crushed them, it shattered their entire social structure. Now, on to LP chat: I always did like the Owyn buildup. Starts off as just a smug rear end in a top hat, starts to realize that you've got something, and becomes a huge helping hand in preparing for fights just as they start to throw a few gimmicks at you like the Grey Aegis and the twins and such. Sky Shadowing fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 06:12
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I'm a Champion Over the past several updates, we've been getting good combat equipment.  Let's put it to use in this short little update.        Hah! We shall see about that.   Resist THIS!    ...oh. You resisted it.  Yeaaaaaah. What Owyn doesn't tell you is that this guy's "serious magic resistances" come in the form of a 100% Resist Magic enchantment, making him flat-out IMMUNE to magic. Poisons are implemented as spell effects too, so basically gently caress you if you had any tactics in mind for this fight.   It's an excuse to use the bow, I guess.  I've got a spell for you! It's called BEATING TOUCH!  Well, that's a dozen arrows we'll never see again.  And a quick check on the loot pile before our next fight.  I do not for the life of me remember where I got those boots. Probably an Oblivion Gate.        Yaaaaay?  Let's see here...  Die,  die,  and d- oh okay. Yaaaaay!   Good Porkchop.       ...oh. Sorry. You again, huh? Look, I told you, if you want to challenge the Gray Prince that's your right. But don't say I didn't warn you. I'm warned. Anything I should know? Okay, listen up. There are no disqualifications in a Grand Champion match. That means you can wear whatever armor you drat well please. Excellent. Agronak will be wearing his Raiment of Valor, and he's probably got it heavily enchanted, so feel free to do the same to any armor you have. Way ahead of you. Now, as you know, in any standard Arena match you're forbidden from looting the corpse of a fallen opponent. Well this ain't any standard match. Ooooh. In the event that you beat the Gray Prince, you're to remove his armor and present it to me. Then you'll get your own Raiment of Valor. Got it. Now there's just the small formality of extending the challenge to Agronak, which the game doesn't alert us to.  Hey. Agronak. The...the journal...my father's journal...it says I'm...I'm part vampire! I thought my father was a nobleman, not some blood-sucking monster!  My whole life has been nothing but a lie! I'm no "Gray Prince". I'm a vile, wretched spawn of evil! Please, leave me. I can't...I... ...uh. Oh, but I see. You're a Champion...you want my Grand Champion title, is that it? Please, challenge me. In the Arena I can end my misery. Yes! Let us fight. Yes. Yes...I accept your challenge. Go...go speak with Ysabel. Tell her you're ready. Then we'll...we'll meet in the Arena. Yes, that'll do...   And before we fight the Grand Champion, Ysabel wants us to pick a fightin' name. We are now The Butcher.  ...this is it.   This is it!  I might just walk out of here as a Grand Champion!   Do it! End my misery! I am nothing but a vile spawn of evil...kill me!Hoo boy...this whole thing, huh. I have rather mixed feelings about this fight. As should be obvious, Agronak is just standing there begging for death due to our completing his quest earlier. I really would've preferred that I wound up fighting some version of Agronak that had some vampire-based spells or something, but instead, we just get this. I still think it's kinda cool, though. Emotional, even, once you get past the Gamebryo faces.       Goodnight, Gray Prince. 
Scaly Haylie fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 06:14
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Kimmalah posted:I don't think so. Clavicus just wanted Umbra because it contained the soul of somebody he'd made a deal with. Or at least he never mentions anything about his own blood or life force. Regarding your spoiler, the Umbra sword is imbued with Clavicus's power, it's just that the power gained its own intelligence and has its own ideas. Clavicus is lying to you when he says it is the soul of a hero; he's just trying to reclaim that bit of his own essence. They go into this even further with the books, where the soul of Umbra, after returning to Oblivion, makes a power play and royally screws Clavicus Vile. By the way, I always thought Clavicus Vile was the biggest idiot of the Daedra. I mean half of his power is a dog that doesn't seem to like him very much. EDIT: vvv Apparently Barbos likes to take sabbaticals now and again to hang out with orcs, the scamp. 
i am tim! fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 06:28
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i am tim! posted:By the way, I always thought Clavicus Vile was the biggest idiot of the Daedra. I mean half of his power is a dog that doesn't seem to like him very much. I just figured it was the daedric version of codependency. They both hate each other but can't bear to leave.
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Jan 15, 2014 06:34
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Update's been moved to this page in light of it being the last post on the previous one.
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Jan 15, 2014 06:39
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Lizard Wizard posted:I'm a Champion The arena progression has always bothered me. It seems even more flippant than most quest lines about making the player a special snowflake. Sure, they put on airs about you going through the motions and being just another combatant, but these people are dying. It's pretty hard to imagine any kind of persistent "team following" with the rate that combatants get churned through. Not to mention the fact that (for player challenge reasons) you end up doing several many-on-one fights, but how are those arranged? If it's not a straight 1-on-1 bracket system, who on the yellow team is choosing which three of their pit dogs are going up against a would-be champion? Why weren't you on a team with anyone else (besides Porkchop) at any point? And if the yellow team had someone at the pre-champion level, why wouldn't that person fight you? So much of the lore and world makes internal sense, and the arena (which I imagine most players go through) is just such a lovely, rough-shod treatment of that world. It's basically screaming "VIDEO GAME!" at you. It makes suspension of disbelief a herculean task. Lizard Wizard posted:Do it! End my misery! I am nothing but a vile spawn of evil...kill me! Same here. It's a neat twist, and a cool(ish) "reward" for a quest to allow you to effectively skip a fight (though if you went through the whole arena quest, it's a reasonable presumption that you're comfortable with combat mechanics), but how is the announcer (or anyone else) not commenting on the fact that the Gray Prince isn't fighting back? Why isn't the crowd booing relentlessly? Why aren't you arrested for suspicion of foul play?
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Jan 15, 2014 06:42
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KnifeWrench posted:The arena progression has always bothered me. It seems even more flippant than most quest lines about making the player a special snowflake. Sure, they put on airs about you going through the motions and being just another combatant, but these people are dying. It's pretty hard to imagine any kind of persistent "team following" with the rate that combatants get churned through. I'd imagine they have to have teams to prevent people from mingling and getting too buddy-buddy before having to kill each other. KnifeWrench posted:Not to mention the fact that (for player challenge reasons) you end up doing several many-on-one fights, but how are those arranged? If it's not a straight 1-on-1 bracket system, who on the yellow team is choosing which three of their pit dogs are going up against a would-be champion? Why weren't you on a team with anyone else (besides Porkchop) at any point? The captains of the teams probably collaborate on this to some extent for the sake of drawing in crowds and revenue. People are gonna show up in droves to see a skilled combatant take on three opponents, and they probably wouldn't mind seeing three combatants curb-stomp some schmo. KnifeWrench posted:Same here. It's a neat twist, and a cool(ish) "reward" for a quest to allow you to effectively skip a fight (though if you went through the whole arena quest, it's a reasonable presumption that you're comfortable with combat mechanics), but how is the announcer (or anyone else) not commenting on the fact that the Gray Prince isn't fighting back? Why isn't the crowd booing relentlessly? Why aren't you arrested for suspicion of foul play? Oblivion. Scaly Haylie fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 06:58
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We just took part in high-fantasy pro wrestling. There, problem solved.
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Jan 15, 2014 07:04
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That bloom hurt my eyes and it was only in update-sized images. How did you bear playing it like that?
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Jan 15, 2014 07:15
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So do you ever have the option to smash more skulls in while defending your title?
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Jan 15, 2014 07:15
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Alas, poor Agronak. We barely knew ye. I really liked him. It's a shame that it had to end like this.
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Jan 15, 2014 07:38
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KnifeWrench posted:Same here. It's a neat twist, and a cool(ish) "reward" for a quest to allow you to effectively skip a fight (though if you went through the whole arena quest, it's a reasonable presumption that you're comfortable with combat mechanics), but how is the announcer (or anyone else) not commenting on the fact that the Gray Prince isn't fighting back? Why isn't the crowd booing relentlessly? Why aren't you arrested for suspicion of foul play? Not exactly arrested on suspicion of foul play, but my first time through the game I ducked back out of range of the one swing Agronak takes at you, which apparently needed to hit, because the game counted my killing him as a murder and the Dark Brotherhood contacted me shortly thereafter.
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Jan 15, 2014 07:47
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MR. J posted:So do you ever have the option to smash more skulls in while defending your title? You can arrange weekly matches against various monsters, but no more fighting people.
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Jan 15, 2014 07:50
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Interesting tidbit: Because Agronak refuses to defend himself, it counts as killing an innocent to the brotherhood. Lucien Lachance will attempt to recruit the player once they're the arena champion, assuming Agronak's personal quest has been completed. edit: Everyone else is saying it so I've removed the spoiler tags. Wyld Karde fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 07:59
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Dareon posted:Not exactly arrested on suspicion of foul play, but my first time through the game I ducked back out of range of the one swing Agronak takes at you, which apparently needed to hit, because the game counted my killing him as a murder and the Dark Brotherhood contacted me shortly thereafter. Agronak is always counted as a murder if you do this, actually.
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Jan 15, 2014 07:59
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Cleretic posted:Agronak is always counted as a murder if you do this, actually. Wait, so you're pseudo-punished for helping a dude find out what happened to his dad? Even if he doesn't like the truth, that's a bullshit way to reward someone for doing sidequests, Oblivion.
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Jan 15, 2014 08:10
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The reward for completing the Arena should be a Summon Porkchop spell.
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Jan 15, 2014 10:34
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Another weird thing about the Arena is how (other than Agronak's quest) it completely ignores the progression of the rest of the game. Hero of Kvatch? No one cares, go kill some shlubs. Guildmaster of three different halls? Let's team you up with a pig. The Arena is hardly alone in this; I always took a kind of perverse pleasure in being the head of the Mage's Guild, if not more, and having random nobodies giving me silly little fetch quests, without knowing I was kind of a big deal in the Cyrodil community. But it's odd that the game includes a Fame mechanic (I'm not sure if it's been discussed in the thread yet) and the Arena questline grants quite a bit of it, yet this one part of the game where you're supposed to be deliberately boosting your reputation completely ignores it. Also you missed out on the best title - Sir Slaughter. And you can get a pretty decent cash flow doing the monster fights if you really feel like it.
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Jan 15, 2014 11:14
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Heads up, Liz Wiz: you've got two of 18-thisisit.jpg in the update, instead of 18 and whatever was going to be 19.
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Jan 15, 2014 14:18
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quote:I really would've preferred that I wound up fighting some version of Agronak that had some vampire-based spells or something I much prefer it the way that they handled it. I know the elder scrolls has a lot of failings, lore-wise, but Agronak suddenly claiming his vampire heritage or something and gaining access to vampire spells doesn't make much sense.
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Jan 15, 2014 14:26
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I mean, it makes sense with his character, but everything else just really seems super-weird about it.
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Jan 15, 2014 14:53
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Brewsuke posted:Wait, so you're pseudo-punished for helping a dude find out what happened to his dad? Even if he doesn't like the truth, that's a bullshit way to reward someone for doing sidequests, Oblivion. You're not punished, the crime goes unreported, I believe, the game just scores it as a 'murder' and the only side effect of that is a visit from Lucien. It's a tick in the log.
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Jan 15, 2014 16:08
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Brewsuke posted:Wait, so you're pseudo-punished for helping a dude find out what happened to his dad? Even if he doesn't like the truth, that's a bullshit way to reward someone for doing sidequests, Oblivion. Given that I was completely unaware of the Brotherhood (which is awesome) on my first playthrough (goody two-shoes style), I'd say this is a fantastic side-quest reward.
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Jan 15, 2014 16:13
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So what happens if you don't do the quest that reveals Agronak's past? Does he fight back, is he super tough? Or will they not let you fight him until you reveal his past?
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Jan 15, 2014 16:43
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What would have honestly been nice is if there was an alternate scenario based on whether or not your character was also a vampire - heck, it could get pretty inspiring. In spite of his heritage, Agronak clearly had no idea that he was part vampire, so its likely he's not affected by the needs and desires that normally come with vampirism. And despite being an Orc, he has risen up to be the Grand Champion of the Arena at the heart of the freaking Empire. He may have been mistaken in his origins, but there is no denying his accomplishments or the life he has forged for himself. Hell, right now - unless I missed something - Sterv is an actual vampire, yet also the hero of Kvatch and basically the personal champion of the Emperor. It'd be nice if you could use that sort of thing to at least try and convince Agronak he still has a life worth leading. What I'm trying to say is... dammit this actually makes me sad. EDIT: And that Agronak could've basically been made into the fantasy equivalent of Blade.
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Jan 15, 2014 16:44
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100YrsofAttitude posted:So what happens if you don't do the quest that reveals Agronak's past? Does he fight back, is he super tough? Or will they not let you fight him until you reveal his past? You fight him like you would any other arena opponent, and it's pretty difficult from what I remember. Astro Nut posted:What I'm trying to say is... dammit this actually makes me sad. Me too, that's why I like why it was done the way it was. Fighting some vampire version of Agronak wouldn't be emotional at all.
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Jan 15, 2014 16:44
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Snowdens Secret posted:The Arena is hardly alone in this; I always took a kind of perverse pleasure in being the head of the Mage's Guild, if not more, and having random nobodies giving me silly little fetch quests, without knowing I was kind of a big deal in the Cyrodil community. But it's odd that the game includes a Fame mechanic (I'm not sure if it's been discussed in the thread yet) and the Arena questline grants quite a bit of it, yet this one part of the game where you're supposed to be deliberately boosting your reputation completely ignores how does the fame system work? I can't remember anything significant happening.
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Jan 15, 2014 16:52
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Sneaky Fast posted:how does the fame system work? I can't remember anything significant happening. SYSTEM?! There's like two quests that require a certain minimum amount of fame. It's pretty superfluous, really.
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Jan 15, 2014 17:01
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Yeah, Fame-Infamy is a situation system that has hands in a only a few quests, but more prominently, if your infamy is higher than your fame, wayshrines and altars in the Chapels won't grant blessings. Which means, say, if you're suffering from a disease you've gotta get a potion to cure it rather than have it done pro bono at the Chapel.
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Jan 15, 2014 17:23
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Sky Shadowing posted:Yeah, Fame-Infamy is a situation system that has hands in a only a few quests, but more prominently, if your infamy is higher than your fame, wayshrines and altars in the Chapels won't grant blessings. Which means, say, if you're suffering from a disease you've gotta get a potion to cure it rather than have it done pro bono at the Chapel. It also seems to make people say really annoying stuff to you. My infamy went up to 1 (only 1) and my fame is somewhere in the high hundreds. But still all of a sudden I'm getting tons of "I used to think you were a hero  " comments
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Jan 15, 2014 17:40
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Sky Shadowing posted:Yeah, Fame-Infamy is a situation system that has hands in a only a few quests, but more prominently, if your infamy is higher than your fame, wayshrines and altars in the Chapels won't grant blessings. Which means, say, if you're suffering from a disease you've gotta get a potion to cure it rather than have it done pro bono at the Chapel. Actually, the wayshrines don't do anything for you if you've got even one point of infamy. That's one of the changes made by Knights of the Nine. Kimmalah posted:It also seems to make people say really annoying stuff to you. My infamy went up to 1 (only 1) and my fame is somewhere in the high hundreds. But still all of a sudden I'm getting tons of "I used to think you were a hero There's a reason for this too, but we'll touch on it once we get to Knights of the Nine. Scaly Haylie fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 17:41
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Lizard Wizard posted:There's a reason for this too, but we'll touch on it once we get to Knights of the Nine. You've got a lot ahead of you, with that and the Shivering Isles. I'm curious, a long time ago in the LP you received that DLC note thing telling you of the Mehrunes Razor quest. Are you gonna do that at some point?
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Jan 15, 2014 18:27
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Lizard Wizard posted:Actually, the wayshrines don't do anything for you if you've got even one point of infamy. That's one of the changes made by Knights of the Nine. Yeah I know it's Knights of the Nine related, I just thought it was funny because when I first started getting those comments I thought "Holy poo poo my infamy must be through the roof, what did I doooo?" then I check and it's 1.  I actually just got back into Oblivion with a relatively high level character and it's so much fun zooming around Cyrodiil with my crazy Speed stat killing everything with 1-2 smacks of my super sword (Seriously, don't give Umbra back to Clavicus Vile). Downside being that minotaurs are EVERYWHERE now.
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Jan 15, 2014 19:30
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Kimmalah posted:Yeah I know it's Knights of the Nine related, I just thought it was funny because when I first started getting those comments I thought "Holy poo poo my infamy must be through the roof, what did I doooo?" then I check and it's 1. Stats wise how does it compare to an enchanted glass sword?
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Jan 15, 2014 19:37
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Sneaky Fast posted:Stats wise how does it compare to an enchanted glass sword? It may well be better, but let's find out when I do that quest. You're not the only people who mouse over spoiler tags, y'know. Sleep of Bronze posted:Heads up, Liz Wiz: you've got two of 18-thisisit.jpg in the update, instead of 18 and whatever was going to be 19. Fixed! Scaly Haylie fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 19:58
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Lizard Wizard posted:SYSTEM?! There's like two quests that require a certain minimum amount of fame. It's pretty superfluous, really. It's mostly there to ensure that when you get famous enough, people get mad at you, think better of it and start attacking your horse instead.
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Jan 15, 2014 20:37
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gatz posted:You've got a lot ahead of you, with that and the Shivering Isles. I'm curious, a long time ago in the LP you received that DLC note thing telling you of the Mehrunes Razor quest. Are you gonna do that at some point? Yes. In fact, I'm already appropriately leveled to get basically the best version of it.
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Jan 15, 2014 20:49
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Just caught up on the thread, man I forgot all about Porkchop. I think you can actually see him early if you nose around the little arena hangout area for your team, so he wasn't totally out of left field. He's got a pen or something cut into one of the walls if I remember right. Also I wanted to add something to the discussion about Mehrunes Dagon and the Deadlands a few pages back: it's also brought up more than once in lore that as cosmic entities go, Dagon is kind of blunt, uncreative, unsubtle and dumb. Expecting too much inventiveness in a realm he designed is begging for disappointment. This also applies to the questions of "why are they just blowing poo poo up instead of being more tactical and quiet when (anything)."At the very least this comes up in http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Varieties_of_Daedra ("Mehrunes Dagon, on the other hand, out of pride, fixity of purpose, and a predictable lack of subtlety in thought, knew nothing and understood nothing, and was inclined to speak freely and without falsehood.") and an official rp/Q&A called Interview With Two Denizens of the Shivering Isles. I'm not linking the latter because it takes place after the main Isles questline, but if you've already played it it's totally worth a trip to google. The Bethesda employee who wrote Haskill is hilarious. That interview also establishes that Dagon's almost the laughingstock of Oblivion for getting humiliated by mortals every other century.  I thought it was a nice in-world response to Bethesda repeatedly using him as their go-to Daedric Villain Guy.
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Jan 15, 2014 21:07
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To whit, here's a list off the top of my head of times Dagon has been humiliated by mortals: 1. The Seven Fights of the Aldudagga is MK forum postings and thus 'semi-canon', but features him getting owned at least three times. 2. The sack of Mournhold in 2920 1E, though this it's disingenuous to say 'mortals' since he fought Almalexia and Sotha Sil. 3. Ancient times by the Battlemages of the 33rd in Kvatch according to the Imperial Census of Daedra Lords, another semi-canon source that was allegedly going to be included with the Pocket Guide in Oblivion's Collector's Edition. This lore is also notable for being the only near-official source mentioning the Trial of Vivec, a forum roleplay in which several developers took place. 4. Arena, Dagon was behind Jagar Tharn's plot. 5. Battlespire, contemporary with Arena but detailing a side scheme where Dagon himself is defeated.
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Jan 15, 2014 22:00
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[Edited out by request]
Kimmalah fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 22:35
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