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Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

ArchangeI posted:

Is that IGOUGO (i.e. like chess) or WEGO? I really like WEGO games better, because you have to take your enemy's probable actions into account, not his actual actions. It feels a little weird to just sit there and let the enemy push you around until he is done, after which he graciously allows you to push him around.

My Immersion!

It's I go you go. There are some limitations to it, but fundamentally it's always going to be a wargame and the advantage of the Germans having the first turn every day means you can work into the core of the game rules a more abstract reflection of things like the fact that the Germans had the strategic initiative in the campaign and the Allies were always having to react to them, which you just can't model in a WEGO system.

Warfare also isn't about making fluid decisions that immediately translate into action. You have to make your choices, see how they pan out, then make new choices based on the changed situation.

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Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



As long as there's well-thought out ZOC/opportunity fire rules to keep things within bounds of reality.

Eg. TOAW doesn't have any kind of realistic limits for naval units, so a single destroyer could scout out the entire enemy coast on its own while the coast batteries and enemy fleets would just sit watching idly by. The only way of making amphibious operations realistic within TOAW is with heavy use of events or house rules.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

A quote from Computer Gaming World that always stuck with me was "the mark of a good strategy is being able to engineer a good position for yourself at the end of the other guy's turn"

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

Alchenar posted:

The basics all really fall into place - Action Points are both movement and fighting (like WitE). CV is an abstraction (like WitE) but more heavily modified by unit types and terrain. Supply travels down the line further by road and rail and is passed from HQ to HQ to units (like WitE).

Stacking is different - you can throw as many units into one space as you want, but they take exponentially increasing penalties for being crammed into too small a space. That's how I gobbled up Alchiki's XI Corps whole in the space of 4 days - I caught each division stacked up in marching order in single hexes when the stack limit is around 1 regiment per hex. Incidentally, what really mattered there was me managing to get that intact bridge over the river immediately. If that hadn't happened I'd have been stuck.

Combat is a little obtuse but there are some ways to eyeball it:

All things being equal, terrain is the most important modifier and needs to be looked at. Rivers reduce attacking power significantly. Tanks are terrible at attacking in towns and forests (yeah Alchiki, that's how a single infantry regiment held off your armoured division). And so on.

Some unit types are good against others and that's the usual.

Stationary units entrench over time. This basically gives them an HP bonus.

Morale determines how many hits a unit can take in combat before it starts to retreat - very low morale might mean a rout and massive casualties. This is important because units with low morale but with high readiness and well entrenched will fight well until they are forced out into the open, ie. the Belgians (nothing can make the Dutch fight well - sorry gradenko but that retreat toggle will do nothing for units with only 20 morale).

Readiness is the most important attribute by far though. Units with low readiness simply don't fight back.

It all makes sense if you've played other wargames, just need to learn how to gauge whether combats will work or not. Sunk some time into Case White as the Germans and I feel like I'm getting the hang of it. The combat system is very fun once you start to get a grasp on how it works.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

uPen posted:

It all makes sense if you've played other wargames, just need to learn how to gauge whether combats will work or not. Sunk some time into Case White as the Germans and I feel like I'm getting the hang of it. The combat system is very fun once you start to get a grasp on how it works.

When we finish this game (depends on whether Happy Hedonist is dead or just on holiday) we'll probably go back to Case White and mess with some variants, there's plenty of space for you.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

Alchenar posted:

When we finish this game (depends on whether Happy Hedonist is dead or just on holiday) we'll probably go back to Case White and mess with some variants, there's plenty of space for you.

These sound like a blast, are you guys doing 6 Germans vs the AI or 3 on 3 or what?

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

uPen posted:

These sound like a blast, are you guys doing 6 Germans vs the AI or 3 on 3 or what?

We did 6 Germans vs the AI last game, it was an okay learning experience for a PBEM but really the AI doesn't compare to a human opponent. Right now we're doing a UK+France+Belgium+Holland vs 2 Germans. Next game I'm voting that we do some form of Player vs Player Poland with a varient to make things interesting.

Serpentis
May 31, 2011

Well, if I really HAVE to shoot you in the bollocks to shut you up, then I guess I'll need to, post-haste, for everyone else's sake.


Alchenar posted:

We did 6 Germans vs the AI last game, it was an okay learning experience for a PBEM but really the AI doesn't compare to a human opponent. Right now we're doing a UK+France+Belgium+Holland vs 2 Germans. Next game I'm voting that we do some form of Player vs Player Poland with a varient to make things interesting.

Or at least allow both sides to pick a variant so there's chances of countering some of them, or not.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Serpentis posted:

Or at least allow both sides to pick a variant so there's chances of countering some of them, or not.

Single scenarios don't work like that (it'd just be a bit silly given you know exactly what you are selecting). Instead you just check the 'equalise' option and the Germans get four extra days for every pro-Poland variant.

Serpentis
May 31, 2011

Well, if I really HAVE to shoot you in the bollocks to shut you up, then I guess I'll need to, post-haste, for everyone else's sake.


Alchenar posted:

Single scenarios don't work like that (it'd just be a bit silly given you know exactly what you are selecting). Instead you just check the 'equalise' option and the Germans get four extra days for every pro-Poland variant.

Eh, that sounds fair enough. I'll be up for that game when it kicks off.

Chump Farts
May 8, 2009

There is no Coordinator but Narduzzi, and Shilique is his Prophet.


Free set up for Gelb is really, really fun. Probably don't wanna do Gelb twice in a row but depending on how long we play but it is a fun option.

apseudonym
Feb 25, 2011



Does the game work on Wine? I might pick it up for something to hold me over until I get back in town.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Alikchi posted:

This is what Alchenar's attack looked like when I first noticed it on the 13th May in our PBEM (lovely imgur compression):




Here's what I said in an email to the other Allies:


quote:

That's basically all of Panzergruppe Kleist, and they're attacking straight west out of the Ardennes instead of much further south towards Sedan etc (as historically). This is a shortcut Manstein plan.

As you can see I don't have much covering this gap, just the cavalry army. Alchenar used the 7th Luftlande to cut off my infantry division protecting a crossing and it has now been shoved into near-surrender. First Army is deployed and dug in along the Samber to the north. Just above this screenshot is the beginning of the British line.

So this is good and bad. Good, because the Germans are attacking in close proximity to French First Army and the BEF, our two strongest forces. Bad, because I have basically no reserves here, while I've been building up the far south Sedan front heavily. Also, we're still constrained by Dyle.

I'm moving in infantry divisions by railway to build up a line in the forest along the railroad in the bottom/right area of this screenshot but it's gonna be dicey. my DLMs and DCR armoured divs are deployed in the forests and towns to try and counterattack exposed regiments, then pull back.

I am nervous about those loving Panzers.

Welp. Those three infantry divisions you see (the corps Alchenar mentioned) were caught barely off the railheads without having time to deploy, so I had to try and slow down the whole Panzergruppe with what I had laying around. Speedbumping.

It's actually really ironic that your plan was 'speedbumping' because my plan on securing a crossing was 'The French player is going to over-compensate for history and rush to counter-attack ASAP, so smash up XI and the Cavalry Corps as much as possible now and then turn south to meet the French reserves head on as they arrive, thus avoid getting caught in a pincer and defeat the French in detail in a quick series of encirclements'.

If the speedbumps you throw at me are 'France's entire Armoured reserve' then I'll happily spend a few days rolling over them. Especially now there's a Panzercorps pinning the bulk of the BEF into Eastern Belgium (no, I didn't expect to find the Dyle river completely unmanned, yes it was a delightful surprise).

vyshka
Aug 10, 2010


This week's Matrix deal:

Steel Panthers General Edition (Steel Panthers + the 4 mega campaigns they used to sell): $29.99
Uncommon Valor $19.99

Baloogan
Dec 5, 2004



Fun Shoe

Matrix games.... having sales?

What the hell is going on?!

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Baloogan posted:

Matrix games.... having sales?

What the hell is going on?!

People yelled at them really loudly and this time it appears to have sunk in.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

Uncommon Valor is basically War in the Pacific with a somewhat more primitive interface and a narrower scope. This is both good and bad insofar as there aren't as many buttons to dick around with, but also that there's less automation/refinement to the buttons that you do have to press. I'd say it's worth the 20 bucks if you're interested in the subject matter but don't want to go whole-hog on WITP:AE just yet.

As for the other game, I'm allergic to Steel Panthers. Combat Mission rules!

meadowlark
May 25, 2012


What's the difference between Steel Panthers World at War and the WinSP games? World at War just seems like an outdated version of the WinSP games.

Bloodly
Nov 3, 2008

Not as strong as you'd expect.

Question: Would you put Distant Worlds in the 'Grognard Games' category?

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

Sir_Seth posted:

What's the difference between Steel Panthers World at War and the WinSP games? World at War just seems like an outdated version of the WinSP games.

As far as I know, Matrix's WaW has a lot more "content" in the form of scenarios, campaigns and mega-campaigns. I'd still consider WinSP to be better because you're not stuck in eye-bleeding 800x600

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010


Alchenar posted:

People yelled at them really loudly and this time it appears to have sunk in.

Of course, they advertise it exactly nowhere on their lovely vintage 2002 website and will use the fact that it hasn't singlehandedly payed for a new private jet as proof that sales don't work.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

ArchangeI posted:

Of course, they advertise it exactly nowhere on their lovely vintage 2002 website and will use the fact that it hasn't singlehandedly payed for a new private jet as proof that sales don't work.

Oh yeah, that's going to happen.

V for Vegas
Aug 31, 2004

THUNDERDOME LOSER

ArchangeI posted:

Of course, they advertise it exactly nowhere on their lovely vintage 2002 website and will use the fact that it hasn't singlehandedly payed for a new private jet as proof that sales don't work.

Don't worry, I'm sure it's getting coverage on Digg.

Bloodly posted:

Question: Would you put Distant Worlds in the 'Grognard Games' category?

Well, it does retail for $90 on Matrix, so that's pretty grognardy. But I would say it's more of a grand strategy game ala Paradox.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

ArchangeI posted:

Of course, they advertise it exactly nowhere on their lovely vintage 2002 website and will use the fact that it hasn't singlehandedly payed for a new private jet as proof that sales don't work.

It's on the front page of their website, and is even also on their facebook page:


cool new Metroid game
Oct 7, 2009

hail satan

Grimey Drawer

Speaking of wargame companies being dumb regarding prices and sales, I was just browsing through the AGEOD forums to check out what's new and came across this thread about AGEOD breaking away from Paradox and moving over to Matrix for publishing.

Pocus-lead dev posted:

Steam will probably not sell anymore our products. As the general statement said (in News from Ageod), we don't feel it is a good thing in the long term to have games sold at 2 euros apiece (or even less, I saw ROP at 99 cents during a discount operation) because it means there is no way we can support on the long term these games. There are two philosophies here, either games are just consumable products, you use them for a short period of time and then you move on, or the games are supported for a long time and they strive to remains a reference and a classic on a particular subject. Given that we don't produce games dealing with dwarves making funny sounds and burps, with a lot of particles effects and coloured lights, I believe the second solution is better for us (I'm not against dwarves in games by the way, I like them actually, having played a lot of Dwarf fortress and even this little Dwarfs! game on Steam)

Pocus posted:

Rise of Prussia and Pride of Nations have been offered through Steam by Paradox. It is true that a huge number of people bought it, but as it was at severely discounted price, it amounted to only a 'medium' level of sales, if you compare to a normal priced product. Side effect is that anybody and his cat and goldfish that could remotely been interested by these products have bought it, so the 'afterlife' of these 2 games is much more desert that our others games.

Pocus posted:

There is no question that Steam, with its ubiquitous visibility allows developers to be known to the public. That said, pricing policy done tends to be 'fire and forget' sometime, PON was down for a very low price on Steam, I think it was 1.5$ during a day or a week-end.
As someone said also, you often only value what costs you something. Getting PON for 1.5$, given it needs time to be appreciated means most of people bought it, fired it for 10 mn and found it too slow or deep for their taste and did not stick to the game. Paradoxically, if they bought it at 25$, perhaps they would have tried harder and many would probably have enjoyed it much more, past the initial learning curve.

If your game's too cheap people won't appreciate it. Wargamers. AGEOD games are not outrageously priced to begin with, unlike Matrix and others, but completely abandoning Steam is just dumb. I guess Matrix is involved with that decision.

Anyway, what's a good WW1 game? I bought the AGEOD WW1 produced game a while back but I never liked it. I've also played a bunch of OPART WW1 scenarios over the years but I want something more WW1 focused. The two options seem to be Strategic Command World War 1 and Commander The Great War, are they any good/which one is the best?

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006



I like AGEOD games but i'll admit that Pride of Nations was a game with a bucket of ideas, a lot of which didn't work at all, some of which were brilliant.

You can't make a game that has about 2,000 turns take 5 minutes to process a turn, or even 2 minutes to process a turn. It's not the dirt cheap price that made people not appreciate the title. Learning curve has nothing to do with it. That game needed to be scaled the hell down in complexity, keeping the basic ideas intact(I like the idea of private money as a seperate resource from public money, for example, as it's a great game mechanism as opposed to the goofiness of Victoria II).

Chump Farts
May 8, 2009

There is no Coordinator but Narduzzi, and Shilique is his Prophet.


Megadyptes posted:

Speaking of wargame companies being dumb regarding prices and sales, I was just browsing through the AGEOD forums to check out what's new and came across this thread about AGEOD breaking away from Paradox and moving over to Matrix for publishing.




If your game's too cheap people won't appreciate it. Wargamers. AGEOD games are not outrageously priced to begin with, unlike Matrix and others, but completely abandoning Steam is just dumb. I guess Matrix is involved with that decision.

Anyway, what's a good WW1 game? I bought the AGEOD WW1 produced game a while back but I never liked it. I've also played a bunch of OPART WW1 scenarios over the years but I want something more WW1 focused. The two options seem to be Strategic Command World War 1 and Commander The Great War, are they any good/which one is the best?

How grognardy do you like to get? Stratcom has more depth and more variety in scenarios, but CtGW looks great, plays smoothly, and makes a poo poo ton of sense. It is done by the Lordz studio of Panzer Corps fame. I loving love it personally, but I don't have a lot of experience with Stratcom so don't just take my word for it.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



SC WW1 has a demo, unfortunately CtGW doesn't so you can't compare. SCWW1's campaigns give you a lot of strategic options and I really like them. I also like the wealth of historical events - I love it when playing a stupid game teaches me historical trivia (like how in Hearts of Iron one message in 1943 informs that Ingvar Kamperad has just founded IKEA...). There's also grand tactical scenarios, for reasons I cannot fathom, and a WW2 campaign. It's a good purchase but I can't say how it compares to Commander.

SC WW1 also has an add-on that includes Russian Civil War and East Africa campaigns, among others. The bundle costs $55, it seems.

Nenonen fucked around with this message at May 8, 2013 around 17:35

MrOnBicycle
Jan 18, 2008
Wait wat?

Megadyptes posted:

I bought the AGEOD WW1 produced game a while back but I never liked it.

That's because you didn't pay enough for it.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Given that the current DC: Warsaw to Paris game is on hiatus, I'll probably start a Case White goon v goon game in the next few days. I'm assuming the people currently in our group are up for the next game, so this is an interest check for anyone else who wants in.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

I'd be interested in a case white game, we doing variants?

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

uPen posted:

I'd be interested in a case white game, we doing variants?

Yeah, it's open to discussion but I'm going to suggest better Polish strategy in exchange for 4 extra days on the timetable (otherwise the Polish defence just collapses on turn 1 and never recovers and it's just like playing the AI).

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010


gradenko_2000 posted:

It's on the front page of their website, and is even also on their facebook page:




I guess I am literally blind and/or dumb, sorry! Could have sworn there was nothing on their page, but I might just have caught them between slides or something.

Baloogan
Dec 5, 2004



Fun Shoe

ArchangeI posted:

I guess I am literally blind and/or dumb, sorry! Could have sworn there was nothing on their page, but I might just have caught them between slides or something.

Hey you are Grognard gamer. We are either actually 50 years old or have the mind and eyes of a 50 year old man. Otherwise we would be playing call of duty with all those other young wippersnappers.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

I'd be down for a Case White PBEM. I'm even on the night shift nowadays so maybe that'll sync up with other people better.

Megadyptes posted:

Speaking of wargame companies being dumb regarding prices and sales, I was just browsing through the AGEOD forums to check out what's new and came across this thread about AGEOD breaking away from Paradox and moving over to Matrix for publishing.

If AGEOD is abandoning Steam, why does Alea Jacta Est have a Greenlight campaign?

Jakse posted:

How grognardy do you like to get? Stratcom has more depth and more variety in scenarios, but CtGW looks great, plays smoothly, and makes a poo poo ton of sense. It is done by the Lordz studio of Panzer Corps fame. I loving love it personally, but I don't have a lot of experience with Stratcom so don't just take my word for it.

Seconding Commander the Great War as an excellent game. It also has HEXES, unlike StratCom's square tiles.

vyshka
Aug 10, 2010


gradenko_2000 posted:

I'd be down for a Case White PBEM. I'm even on the night shift nowadays so maybe that'll sync up with other people better.


If AGEOD is abandoning Steam, why does Alea Jacta Est have a Greenlight campaign?


Seconding Commander the Great War as an excellent game. It also has HEXES, unlike StratCom's square tiles.

The greenlight campaign predates the move to slitherine. I imagine they just haven't thought to take it down. There was a nice big discussion about what is going on in the matrix pride of nations forums, complete with Ian telling Johan that Paradox doesn't know how to market these games.

V for Vegas
Aug 31, 2004

THUNDERDOME LOSER

vyshka posted:

The greenlight campaign predates the move to slitherine. I imagine they just haven't thought to take it down. There was a nice big discussion about what is going on in the matrix pride of nations forums, complete with Ian telling Johan that Paradox doesn't know how to market these games.

I bet AGEOD's American Civil War II that they are currently working on will come out at $70.

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.




Is the jist of their logic "when we're reaming you in the rear end, you could at least pay us the courtesy of a reacharound"? They're completely out of touch.

Because it seems like they don't understand basic concepts of sales. Like getting exposure so people will buy your other games, or that making $2 off a sale you wouldn't have otherwise gotten is still an extra $2 in the bank.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

I think it's something like "We acknowledge that putting games on sale will cause a bump in revenue for those other guys like Dustforce, but it just doesn't work for the grognard games genre because these games are so hardcore that even if we dropped a 60 dollar game to 20 dollars, so few people are going to pick it up that we lose more money from the discount than we gain from the extra units sold."

Which is really a 2-part problem:

1. They've never done these big sales before for their more recent games. A bunch of people are interested in WITP and WITE and Decisive Campaigns and whatnot, but these weekly sales aren't going to expand your audience any when you're selecting the decade-old titles instead of the ones that aren't rear end-ugly and are programmed to run on modern OSes. Of course the hobby is going to remain small if the pricing model for the new hotness (and even the slightly-less-new hotness) stays so exclusive.

2. The games need to be good. A bunch of people are interested in WITE because it's the most accessible Gary Grigsby design in ages (which is kind of like saying Mt. Kilimanjaro is easier to climb than K-2, but whatever), but nobody's going to buy Pride of Nations no matter how hard you discount it because it sucks, and nobody's going to buy Bombing the Reich even at 10 bucks if the point of the game is scrolling through hundreds and hundreds of spreadsheets with an interface that resembles DOS's Lotus Symphony more than anything else. Seriously, some of these games skate by only because they're literally your only options for a particular subject-matter.

gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at May 9, 2013 around 06:10

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blackmongoose
Mar 31, 2011

DARK INFERNO ROOK!


Imagine if someone made a relatively more accessible version of WITE - a divisional/corps scale East Front game where you don't have to set air unit percentages or the like. Now imagine it retailed for $50-60. That game would sell like crazy. Every time I see WITE discussion, the common thread is "I would buy it if it were cheaper/a little easier to get into." I think there's a number of people out there interested in these games, but they don't want to risk $100 on an unknown quantity.

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