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KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Stanfield posted:

There's not really anyone in SFI that I would call 'broken'. Zylo and Bleu I guess, maybe Anri as well, but they're more just 'really good' rather than 'broken'. I've never played SFIII so I don't know about that.

Due to how Genesis SF1's stat gains worked, characters could be blessed or screwed by the RNG almost as badly as Fire Emblem characters.

That said, Domingo is generally considered broken in Gen!SF1 due to having an unusually huge (for a mage) HP/Def growth, the ability to ignore terrain, the combo of Freeze and Boost, and the fact the AI prioritizes him as a target over everyone but Max. Bleu is basically SF1's version of Peter, stat-wise, except he comes too late to be useful without a little bit of Egress-grinding. They're actually the two characters that were given stat nerfs in the GBA game to make room for the New Bullshit in Town, aka Mawlock and Narsha.

KataraniSword fucked around with this message at Jul 27, 2013 around 21:01

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KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

inthesto posted:

He was in the same class as Adam, where they'd be just as monstrous as Zylo and Guntz

I have never had Adam turn out good in any of my SF1 playthroughs, thus proving how much the RNG influences late-game characters in the first game. Pretty much every time I've tried to raise him, he's ended up worse than Hanzou, much less a dedicated attacker.

I think the biggest thing I'm noting is that mobility is everything in Shining Force; Ruburan/Slade/Guntz excepted, your best characters in the early games are the most mobile - Kiddo, Peter, Domingo, Zylo (who gets basically no movement penalties in forests or mountains, basically giving him wannabe-float status), Claude...

The thing is, as you said, Camelot is really bad at balance, and it seems like they knew how overpowered free range of movement got... and then "balanced" almost every other flying/floating character into uselessness. Birdmen in SF1 and SF2 are completely awful, MNST Kiwi has something like a 30% chance of wasting his turns and dies in a single spell of practically ANY sort, and Kokichi is pretty much as bad as Arthur without the ludicrous post-promotion statgains to make up for it.

Eldar is actually a decently good flyer WITHOUT being ludicrously overpowered, which is saying a fair bit.

EDIT: vvvv It's still, if I'm not mistaken, still a percentage chance of getting statgains at all, meaning that a single level-up can bring a character back into "useful", after about five to ten levels of lagging behind... but it could just leave them every bit as screwed as before.

KataraniSword fucked around with this message at Jul 27, 2013 around 21:22

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Lotish posted:

So...how badly did Kahn just mess up?

Using the previous Shining Force games as a baseline for how badly-punished character stupidity is, I think it's safe to say that the entire plot from here on out is probably going to end up stemming from that one blatant fuckup.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

inthesto posted:

And as a last order of business, we have a new character! Ratchet here is nothing like his spiritual ancestor Guntz. He's a hybrid character, with one of his weapons being melee and the other being ranged. He's got a decent bit of defense for an archer, but is kind of slow and will never match Hayward's attack.

Why are we even CONSIDERING this poo poo? Staple him to the bench right next to Penn.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

I know it was two updates ago, but I'm just catching up on this LP and

inthesto posted:



The map this time is a bit funny. Synbios is sandwiched between a buttload of enemies, and Fiale is right in front of him. Once again, the AI shows us mercy, and the only enemy who's programmed to attack Synbios is Fiale, and that's only if we send Synbios at him.

Which we're going to do, of course.

So Shining Force 3 made us literally relive Shade Abbey, one of the least noteworthy maps from one of the worst chapters of the first game. The only real difference is magic and the fact that all the numbers are bigger.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

If summons exist in this game, does that mean eventually we'll be getting Sorcerors of our own, or are they stuck as just weapon-granted spells here?

Also, we can't get rid of Ratchet this quickly after we dropped 15k on his flimsy rear end. Let's get rid of Dorf #2 instead. I can't even remember his name.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Khisanth Magus posted:

They do say to use it to get rid of his barrier.

It's surprising how few people can mentally associate "this will help us pierce his barrier" with "use this as an item to do more damage" unless the boss is either invincible otherwise, or unless the game blatantly spells it out.

Like, this is a common trend, spanning multiple RPGs.

It doesn't help that this wouldn't be the first time the Shining Force series demanded that you cart around a useless item solely for the sake of plot. (Hello, Orb of Light!)

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Joey McChrist posted:

From the first one, you pick up the Orb of Light in the catacombs underneath the magic town in the 2nd Chapter and cart that useless thing around until I think the 6th/7th chapter?

To clarify, you get it in the second battle of the 2nd chapter in the first game. It is used in exactly two places to trigger an Exposition Ghost: Right after the aforementioned battle, and near the end of the 7th chapter. It continues to sit in your inventory, unremovable, for the entire game. The best you can do is shunt it off onto someone who's permabenched, but on certain minimalist runs that becomes impossible since you don't get more than your minimal 12-member force.

The Dry Stone in Shining Force 2 is similarly bad, but at least you have the Caravan in that game.

And then there's the titular Sword of Hajya, which sits useless in your protagonist's inventory from near the beginning of the game all the way to the very final battle in said game, just so that you can foist it off onto your one-battle party member.

KataraniSword fucked around with this message at Mar 8, 2014 around 00:21

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Serifina posted:

Well that's a fascinating opinion. I'm very curious, why does he "suck"? (Considering how he seems to actually be one of the best units...)

I would assume that the difficulty in raising him to a useable level (THIF Slade is terrible) combined with the fact that he dies if an enemy so much as looks at him offsets his huge attack stat.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Losem posted:

Yeah that's not right at level 17 promoted Slade is already at 80 with the great sword in the play through I'm doing right now. I honestly expect this to finish it around level 25 or so and he has plenty of room to grow.

I think all of it revolves around, most importantly, keeping Slade alive. If he bites it early-on in a battle, or if he sits a single battle out, he won't keep competitive with experience, and if he doesn't keep competitive with experience, he'll fall behind on the levels he needs which makes it far harder for him to keep up. He's a very momentum-based character, unlike Peter and Lemon, who start out great and can easily catch up if they lag behind.

Basically, he's got all of Gerhalt's problems, but more extreme since he has equipment he has to manage.

Contrast Ruburan, who is Peter-tier and a ranged attacker to boot, and Hanzou, who has to have enough stats to be decent with only four battles left after his recruitment in the Genesis version, or who has similar stats but a recruitment point (and levelling opportunities) two chapters earlier in the GBA version.

EDIT:

Stanfield posted:

But if we're on the subject of weird things we do in SF2, I almost never pick Karna or Tyrin at Creed's.

Eric is easily the best non-archery centaur (May is such a late bloomer that you could arguably call him the best centaur period) and Randolf is a perfectly usable choice if Jaha's falling behind. It's just that two physical attackers tend to pale in comparison to a healer that can grind levels with Boost, and the game's requisite Bolt-Barfer; especially the latter since Kazin is so much better off as a Sorceror than a Wizard.

Basically, there is no technically wrong choice to make at Creed's, though I'd think twice about picking Randolf if your Jaha is doing well; Gladiators are notably worse than Barons in most circumstances, and you can only get one Baron before Lemon.

KataraniSword fucked around with this message at Mar 8, 2014 around 11:58

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Losem posted:

At least you get a good birdman in 3 with Eldar. I'm not sure how intheso is doing with her, but all the times I played 3 I'd say 75% of the time she turned out Danteres level for me and the other 25% just serviceable.

From what I can make out from the LP, she's no Kiddo or Sword of Hajya Claude, but she's certainly no Balbaroy or Skreech, either. A very adequate middle-of-the-road "competent unit that becomes great because flight is a tremendous boon in Shining Force". I don't know if she's Dantares level, but she's definitely Obright level.

(Even Dantares is coming off a little short; this LP so far seems to be the Noon/Masqurin Power Hour.)

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

inthesto posted:

After saying it out loud to myself a few times, it now dawns on me that the localization team was desperately trying to avoid using the obvious name "Valkyrie".

Which is weird, since, as you said, it's an obvious choice. You've got a giant death airship, you name that fucker something like Valkyrie. It's just how these things go.

It's less sensible to name your child "Dauntless". Unless you're Frank Zappa.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Glazius posted:

Man, is that the second time we've been led into a room by people who are deceiving us?

At least this time the text makes it sound like Synbios and Dantares realized that the easiest, quickest way was to spring the trap and push through it as opposed to trying to avoid it.


inthesto posted:

NEXT TIME:

Oh god. I have no idea what this means in context of a SF3 LP, but this screenshot alone is enough to make me insist on voting in Murasame and his helpful support spells, and in turn bench Hagane for good.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Nephrite posted:

Isn't Penn useful because his supports give a Luck Bonus as well as something else? Well, useful in a relative sense.

Penn is never useful. If I have to spend eighty years grinding up a character from the bottom of the shitheap, I want a Bleu, not an Adam.

Let's go with "Team Unique Class": Justin, Ratchet, and Frank.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

inthesto posted:



Early drafts of Penn's design. I can't really argue with the one in the top-right.



An early draft of Synbios' design. Not gonna lie, this looks like it was pulled straight off of DeviantArt.

Wow, that picture of Synbios makes him look like Fantasy Heero Yuy. That's almost kind of painful.

Also, it's worth noting that apparently the bottom right concept art of Penn there implies that Penn was going to be a dragon. I wonder why they changed it but kept every other name incredibly obvious.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Losem posted:

If I remember right the basic (mage, priest, knight, ect) are pretty comparable.If by some chance the first archer, can't remember who it is, isn't then there are plenty of other archers in this scenario. I want to say you get more then in shining force 2.

That's... not entirely a reassuring thing; May was pretty much the only archer worth using in either of the first two games, and she only got to that point if you got her promoted.

Archers are kind of... universally bad in Shining Force, though admittedly not as awful as they are in Fire Emblem games.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Shitenshi posted:

I'm curious if Zero is one of those characters that pays off if you put work into him like Eldar, or whether he just flat out sucks.

The Shining Force games have a really huge problem balancing characters that can ignore terrain. Either they're godlike shitwreckers (Bleu, Peter, arguably Domingo, Claude in SFCD, Kiddo in Final Conflict) or they're utter trash whose only saving grace is the fact that they can fly (pretty much every birdman in the series not named Kiddo or Claude, Kokichi, Kiwi post-promotion).

Eldar was actually a surprising case in that she ended up either par or slightly-below-par on average, instead of gravitating to either extreme, and as inthesto said, Zero is basically "Eldar -1", which brings him closer to the suck pile than she is for no other reason than less screen time.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Bloodly posted:

Humans are imbued with holy spirits. The spirits come down from a special ship.

Oh god, is this where that stupid "Max can call down an orbital laser strike at will" thing in the GBA remake of the first Shining Force came from?

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

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a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Ardeem posted:

Cursed accessories are amazing.

You don't need to equip them to use them to cast magic.

Also, David's going to spend the entire rest of the game dead isn't he?

Do item-use spells get support bonuses like item-granted spells do? If not, then cursed equipment is outclassed immediately by being in the same game as the Hazuki-Syntesis-Hedoba support trifecta.

Also, if there's any justice in the world, he will.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

inthesto posted:

Any damage a character deals counts towards building supports, regardless of what kind of item it's attached to.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. When used as items in battle, if Shining Force 3 is anything at all like the first two games, cursed rings will cast magic - usually Blaze and Spark. Assuming they do that (like Ardeem suggests they do), then you can use them as free castings of spells. If the support bonus affects the damage of the ring-cast spells, then they might be worth keeping around. If the bonus doesn't have an effect, then you're looking at "do 10-11 damage or so in a range" which is, just like in late-game SF2, the epitome of .

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

The interchangeable party members happens again! (Unless Campbell actually did turn into Dantares, in which case it would only be an improvement.)

Also, "JuMSy" sounds so dumb.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

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I am my own man.

vibratingsheep posted:

beep boop I am a benchwarmer

Voting for this. Adam wasn't that good either, but ROB here makes him look passable.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

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a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Kanos posted:

or not at all(in the case of Shining Force).

Lemon and Freyja are actually pretty drat good, and Gyan and Chaz are usable if not all that impressive. People just hear "prepromote" in terms of Shining Force and think about Higins, Sheena, Taya, Jaro and Skreech - the last two sufferering doubly from being prepromotes and gimped-rear end flying units. In a game where Peter exists, no less.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

inthesto posted:

The reason why so many prepromotes in Shining Force 2 were bad was because they were poverty prepromotes. You got them as consolation prizes if you never found the items to get the special promotions. Also, I just realized that Shining Force 1 has almost no prepromotes. No idea how I never noticed that.

Domingo, Musashi and Hanzou are pretty much it, and that's only in the Genesis original. In RotDD, I think it's just Domingo. The difference is that most of the characters that come in after the Chapter 4 promotion point in Shining Force 1 are subpar unless you grind them to 20/1, and unlike with the rest of your crew who could do that against Seabats, your best options in Chapter 6 and 7 are the Kane battle and the Chaos battle, both of which are distinctly more dangerous and less controllable.

Meaning that, aside from arguably Alef and Torasu, most of them come out kind of bland anyway. I don't think I've ever used Lyle even though he's statistically better than both Diane and Hans (arguably combined), Adam is always permaglued to the bench, and even Bleu rarely sees action when Zylo already exists.

Serifina posted:

Sheena was still useful by virtue of being in the most broken class in the drat game, though.

I never knew you got a second PHNX in Shining Force 2. But yeah, Boost 2 grinding and competency in melee at least made Sheena usable. Most of the poverty prepromotes (Lemon excepted) and a few of the normal prepromotes (HI, SKREECH) have no such saving grace, though.

KataraniSword fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2014 around 23:01

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Kanos posted:

I can't think of a knight in Shining Force 1 or 2 that wasn't mediocre at their very best besides maybe Eric and you'd be a crazy person to pick Eric. I guess Arthur is good if you poopsock him, but that's way too much effort for what you get out of it.

Earnest is the exact opposite from Arthur: hits like a freight train with little to no effort expended, but turns kind of crap if you level-grind because all of his gains are early. He's the closest any of the earlier games get to a Dantares.

The only problem is that Shining Force 1 was a game where centaurs had to compete with Guntz for the best Knight weapon in the game. Well, that and the fact he joins after Chapter 4, and is thus stuck in the half of the game where everything is forest and mountain terrain.

Shining Force 1 hates centaurs almost as much as it hates birdmen.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

ChrisAsmadi posted:

There's May, who's a centaur and actually good. Not a Knight, though.

Yeah, counting May or Lyle isn't really the same; they're far more archers-with-centaur-movement than they are knights-with-archer-range. They're good not so much because centaurs themselves are good characters, but because your other options for archers in the first two Shining Force games are so terrible. Medion's archer-biased crew makes Hans and Diane look absolutely worthless, to say nothing of Elric/Janet/Rhode.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Serifina posted:

Oh god. SF2 is seriously one of my favorite games ever, and I've tried. I've tried SO HARD to make Elric, Janet, and Rhode usable. And they're SO BAD. So terribly bad that it makes me cry just to think about it. May is literally the only archer in that game worthwhile using (and at least she's actually a pretty good character.)

I went to endgame with Elric once, my very first run!

He was still easier to use and died less than Luke or any of the Knights not named Rick.

SF2 gives you such hideously bad filler.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

And it's that exact stat focus that makes May so good. Her other stats are utter trash, but she has the two stats that matter for an archer: Attack and mobility.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

This is getting bushido as gently caress - which is to say "it doesn't matter if you serve under an rear end in a top hat king, as long as you serve" - but then you look over at Jade, having no qualms about selling out his fellow man to a despot in the name of petty revenge.

KataraniSword fucked around with this message at Jul 7, 2014 around 03:50

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

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I am my own man.

They all know that Domaric has a superpowered Deus Ex Plotninja that will end them if they so much as blink. Fear is a pretty good motivator!

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
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I am my own man.

Hoss Corncave posted:

As Katarani said earlier, it's probably a fear thing. Domaric has both a ninja that can appear at any time and kill anyone he wishes, and an assassination squad that absolutely slaughtered two of the High Priests without taking damage themselves at his command. I'd probably not want to anger that man too if I were just an old dragonman.

Yeah. While some of our neutral or turncoat recruits have no reason to worry about - or are actively encouraged by, as inthesto noted with Hazuki - drawing attention to themselves, our original stable of imperial grunts still has no reason to get in the way of the invincible plot ninja or the invincible superguards.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

We sat through this much of because we wanted to see you utterly make the game weep through the power of the Mage Trifecta. Go with Team A and make it beg for mercy.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

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I am my own man.

Oh lord, this is just painful all around, and I really hope Scenario 3 makes up for this trash. I'm so used to fans of the series treating Shining Force 3 like the holy grail of Shining Force games, but Scenario 2 here has just been brutal. It's like that sixteen year old GM at a tabletop game who refuses to let the game go anywhere but on HIS rails, common sense or logic be damned.

inthesto posted:

Does Yasha upset you, Grantack? I assigned him to follow that fool Garvin and his tank.


Domaric literally pulls a "you mad, bro?" and nobody calls him on it.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Serifina posted:

(I don't care they're from another culture, those outfits are still dumb.)

Worse. They aren't just from another culture...


They're from disco.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Lotish posted:

I need to see more before I'm convinced the title shouldn't be "Shining Force 3 Scenario 3: No, Choices Still Don't Matter."

It's a Camelot game. Having played through the Genesis and Game Gear Shining Forces, plus Beyond the Beyond, plus the Golden Sun games? The only time I can think of a choice mattering whatsoever when it wasn't directly linked to character recruitment was in the beginning of Golden Sun when you could say "I don't want to be the chosen one" and have the game instantly end.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

inthesto posted:

Like I said, Medion's family situation is suspiciously close to the Beoulve's.

Except for the fact that Balbanes at least had the decency to croak in the game's backstory instead of giving us what Scenario 2 had.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Are we really sure at this point that Domaric isn't one of the Vandals? I mean jesus.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Elric posted:

But is there a game that will let you recruit a Dragon Unicorn?

Legend of Mana comes close and lets you recruit a Werewolf Unicorn Dragoon. Not an actual dragon but serves one and has a heavy dragon motif.

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KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

I still say Devil Survivor handled bad SRPG escort AI best by just writing the character as actually suicidal.

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