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skoolmunkee
Jun 27, 2004

Tell your friends we're coming for them



actionjackson posted:

the first day I had Abby I tried to take away her toy she was holding in her mouth and she growled. Someone in my group mentioned holding her muzzle and saying "drop" - not sure if this really made sense or was the best course of action, but it worked incredibly well. I started saying "drop" (without holding her muzzle or anything else) early on when she would hold onto things, and she picked up pretty quickly that she needed to let it fall to the floor, and didn't try to go after my hand when I picked it up.

They advised you to put your hand near the mouth of a growling dog??

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actionjackson
Jan 12, 2003

your living room looks like shit

skoolmunkee posted:

They advised you to put your hand near the mouth of a growling dog??

well the toy was in her mouth, so I'm not sure how much of a threat it was, but yeah it probably wasn't the best advice.

I think teaching the "drop" command is a great idea though, but I'm not sure the best way to introduce it

pastor of muppets
Aug 21, 2007

We were somewhere around the Living Hive, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

Yeah I learned pretty quickly to take the stuff my adoption group said regarding behavioral advice with a grain of salt because they are (were?) definitely into the !!!BE THE ALPHA!!! school of thought. Positive reinforcement training worked extremely well.

jesus WEP
Oct 17, 2004



Fun Shoe

yeah whoever it was that suggested trading for a higher value treat (sparty dad?) was right, it’s almost always the best way

Red_Fred
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

Thanks for all the suggestions. I know that her growling in most cases is fine as that is her way of saying “no thanks” and generally we leave her in those instances. Can anyone link any videos on how to train the “trade up” thing?

I’m currently reading The Other End of the Leash so I’ll see if there are any sections in there on resource guarding as well.

We have been doing the positive reinforcement stuff as much as possible but I think my partner might need to be a bit more firm with her at times as she often ignores her but not me when being told No.

Radiation Cow
Oct 23, 2010



Here's a pretty good breakdown of teaching "leave it" and "take it"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grdlSRkbi1c

If you're still not sure about what are high and low-value treats, then playing "Search" is a great start. Your dog will be more enthusiastic about their high-value treats than low-value ones.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxd1sVEQp2Y[/url]

Also, check out Susan Garrett some more, she's an agility trainer that does a lot of good work explaining why her positive training methodology actually works.

pastor of muppets
Aug 21, 2007

We were somewhere around the Living Hive, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

I was also recommended a book called "Mine!" in this very thread almost seven years ago. if you click on ? next to my post, you can read my whole saga.

a life less posted:

Classic resource guarding. I'd pick up "Mine" by Jean Donaldson for some step by step instructions on how to address resource guarding. Saying "no" is a good way to intensify the behaviour. Hand feeding is good, but don't mess around with your hands in her bowl. You can train RG out to imperceptible levels with a bit of hard work and periodic booster sessions for the rest of your dog's life.

Here's a post from the training megathread about RG to get you started: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3364451&pagenumber=12&perpage=40#post387791781

actionjackson
Jan 12, 2003

your living room looks like shit

I ordered the orthopedic bed from mammoth, with the added cordura 600 denier nylon liner

stuck with the firm orthopedic foam vs. paying more for memory foam, not as much because I didn't want to drive the price even higher, but it seems like firmer surfaces work better for her. I think with memory foam she might get kind of "stuck" in it easily, and she likes to move around constantly.

in summary I am a terrible, cheap dog owner :p

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

Red_Fred posted:

Thanks for all the suggestions. I know that her growling in most cases is fine as that is her way of saying “no thanks” and generally we leave her in those instances. Can anyone link any videos on how to train the “trade up” thing?

I’m currently reading The Other End of the Leash so I’ll see if there are any sections in there on resource guarding as well.

We have been doing the positive reinforcement stuff as much as possible but I think my partner might need to be a bit more firm with her at times as she often ignores her but not me when being told No.

Training basics:

CONSISTENCY IS KEY

If the rules keep changing, or have all sorts of weird exceptions and edge conditions, it's almost impossible for a dog to learn. Most behavioral issues come down to the owner being inconsistent or unconsciously incentivizing the wrong behavior.

UNDERSTAND THE MENTAL STATE OF YOUR PET

Know what motivates your pet, learn to read their body language, what their likes and dislikes are, and how they react to various situations. Would they kill a guy for kibble? Or a game of tug? Or just your praise and adoration? Use that as your reward. You also want to always have a good idea what they're thinking so you can properly modify the behavior. A warning growl and a play growl are quite different, an alarm bark is different from a happy bark, as are play fights and actual fights. And if they are telling you "back off!" you need to respect that - figure out what's getting to them, build up trust that you will listen to their warnings, and "negotiate" with them to figure out an acceptable compromise.

NEVER "PUNISH"

You should always be the bringer of good things, never pain or fear. If you bring pain or fear, all it teaches your pet is that you can be a fickle resource, sometimes refuge and sometimes threat, and every interaction will be laden with the possibility it's one or the other.

You might wonder how to curb bad behavior if you can't punish, but it's actually quite simple: good things go away when they do [unwanted behavior]. This is why knowing your pet is so important, because you need to understand what reward it is they get from [unwanted behavior] and remove the rewarding part or redirect them from it with something more rewarding.

Note that you're allowed "warning growls" and "alert barks" yourself. Most people do this automatically and unconsciously: "heeyyy, what are you doing?" usually has a lower, drawn out pitch to it just like a warning growl, while "NO!" is sharp, sudden, and is meant to snap them out the behavior. But again it's not a punishment, it's a communication, and for communication to work it's crucial that it goes both ways and both parties listen to each other. And if immediate health or safety is a concern then do what is necessary so people and animals aren't hurt and fix feelings later.

SPECIFIC EXAMPLES

"Trading up" is the exchange of whatever they have for something they want more: bits of hot dog, play time with a tug toy, going for a walk; it all depends on your animal's wants and needs. You can practice it with trading a so-so [thing] with a holy poo poo awesome [thing]. Each time you do it, you reinforce the idea "if I give this thing up now I'm guaranteed something better". But it has to be a guarantee (that's why consistency is key) and it has to be better (so you gotta know what they like). This is an example of the "negotiating" I mentioned earlier.

Another fun game is "it's yer choice" which is very effective with food motivated pets. You have a high-value reward hidden under your hand and let them try to dislodge it. When they eventually give up or back off, you reveal it - but if they go for it again you cover it up. Keep repeating until you can leave the treat exposed and they won't dive for it, then give the release word and let them go hog wild. Each time you do this, you will reinforce patience and self-restraint plus the confidence they will get the reward eventually, but only if they do the right thing. This can easily build into more complex behaviors.

You also have to understand limitations. Some dogs just love barking, and no rewards will dissuade them from the fun of a good bark. Some dogs are high energy or intelligence, and if you don't exercise that part then they WILL find something to use it on, and it WILL NOT be something you like. It's pretty rare that you can't make huge improvements though as long as your expectations are reasonable.

More advanced stuff will go into the specifics of operant vs. classical conditioning, capturing and shaping behaviors, and clicker training, but just these concepts will be more than enough to satisfy most people.

Being firm is good but consistent is better. They will constantly be testing the boundaries of the rules, and if those boundaries keep changing they will keep pushing and also never know where the line is at a given moment.

YOUR SPECIFIC CASE

If they're growling at anyone near their food then we've got a lot to work with: they're probably food motivated, otherwise they wouldn't be doing guarding behavior; it's very clear what and when the growling is triggered, so we can prepare and be ready for lessons precisely; we can guess the motivations behind the behavior, "I'm afraid someone is going to take my food" and address them directly.

So, you try to address all those things. Reassurance "nobody is going to take your food" by action, like backing away if there's a warning growl. Give them the option "hey you get this much better food if you're chill, you want it?" - and that option goes away if they're not chill. Doing a trade up if they seem interested, and not worrying if they don't take the offer (besides maybe trying a better motivator).

So I would maybe start with a half-feeding or after one so they're not as hungry, to hopefully take the edge off. Give the rest of the regular food, and then come close with an offer of high-reward food/treats. If they growl, back away until they relax; if they don't, give them the high value treat, praise and make happy noises, then back away and let them finish the rest of the food. You'll have taught them 1) bad things like food going away don't happen when you are near their food, 2) good things DO happen when you are near their food, and 3) you can be trusted to respect their warnings and aren't like that annoying guy that just never takes a hint.

After many, many iterations of this you can escalate the threshold, increasing the number of times you approach, taking the bowl away before adding the reward to it, petting them while they eat, etc. The key is you respect their language, you address their concerns, and you make it so it's a choice they can make and you respect that choice.

david_a
Apr 24, 2010





Megamarm

Katie normally gets an activity surge around 3:30-4 or so. She’s started sometimes getting a bit vocal at this time if she feels like I’m ignoring her and will yelp to try to get my attention. Today that corresponded nicely with when it was my time to speak at an all-company meeting


I even gave her a Kong early so that hopefully she would be preoccupied, but she (of course) finished it in record time right before it was my turn to speak.


On another note, she was really stubborn at the end of our lunch walk today. We were out over an hour but she got “stuck” at the end and didn’t want to budge. After 15 minutes I gave up waiting and just carried her the short distance home.

Do you think carrying her does any damage to her trust for me? It doesn’t seem like she dislikes it and the reality is we can’t stay out forever. I have been using a lot of treats to get her to move when she’s like this (throw a piece on the ground and she’ll walk over to it, rinse & repeat) but I’ve been trying to be more conservative about this.

Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

david_a posted:

Katie normally gets an activity surge around 3:30-4 or so. She’s started sometimes getting a bit vocal at this time if she feels like I’m ignoring her and will yelp to try to get my attention. Today that corresponded nicely with when it was my time to speak at an all-company meeting


I even gave her a Kong early so that hopefully she would be preoccupied, but she (of course) finished it in record time right before it was my turn to speak.


hahaha I've had similar issues semi-recently - except it was that both Taz and Opal were getting up in my face and simultaneously gave their ears a good flapping. There were many confused reactions to that, in my meeting

david_a posted:

On another note, she was really stubborn at the end of our lunch walk today. We were out over an hour but she got “stuck” at the end and didn’t want to budge. After 15 minutes I gave up waiting and just carried her the short distance home.

Do you think carrying her does any damage to her trust for me? It doesn’t seem like she dislikes it and the reality is we can’t stay out forever. I have been using a lot of treats to get her to move when she’s like this (throw a piece on the ground and she’ll walk over to it, rinse & repeat) but I’ve been trying to be more conservative about this.

I'm no expert, but I wouldn't have thought that it should damage her trust in you. At least, assuming you're not hurting her. Opal "the Ox" seems like a more extreme version of Katie in that regard, (as Opal insists on going a particular 15min route. Deviation results in her stopping, plus she'll sometimes stop in the middle of the walk even if you're going the 'right' way, because she wants to teleport to the couch. Not walk home - teleport) and picking her up for a short period while walking sometimes gets her to get moving again. And I'm the only one who picks her up, yet I'm her favourite human - so I'm sure it can't damage their trust, (much, at least) assuming you're doing it in a safe way.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

david_a posted:


Do you think carrying her does any damage to her trust for me? It doesn’t seem like she dislikes it and the reality is we can’t stay out forever. I have been using a lot of treats to get her to move when she’s like this (throw a piece on the ground and she’ll walk over to it, rinse & repeat) but I’ve been trying to be more conservative about this.

You'd have to watch her reactions, but I doubt it. As long as she's not in pain I doubt she cares all that much.

The real worry is that you're teaching her "if I stand still long enough I do get to teleport to the couch or else get treats thrown at me "

david_a
Apr 24, 2010





Megamarm

DarkHorse posted:

The real worry is that you're teaching her "if I stand still long enough I do get to teleport to the couch or else get treats thrown at me "

Yeah but I mean what’s the alternative? I’m not going to drag her and there’s realistically only so long I can wait for her. I can’t predict when she’ll get obstinate so it’s not like I can plan the walks around it. Some days she really trucks along during walks.

Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

Now, the real solution here is -bear with me- to adopt another greyhound! Since one thing that works, when it comes to getting Opal to move during walks is her FOMO and a slightly longer lead compared to Taz. (Not by much, though. Maybe 20cm? It wasn't actually intended - just an unintended benefit of getting a different brand lead for Opal, to match colour-wise with her harness)

Since hear me out here - if I walk Taz and Opal at once, and Opal inevitably decides to stop, I slacken her lead and slowly continue with Taz. Then, Opal sees that she's totally being left behind once we go 1-2 steps without her, then she gets moving to catch up with us, before her lead goes taut. Works like a charm!

I don't know what's going through her mind (like, has she forgotten that the lead/tether goes both ways?? She can't move far from me, and I can't move far from her) but honestly, I'm happier with the knowledge that she's not thinking it through and is instead getting enough FOMO to simply push ahead with the walk, haha

Kitchner
Nov 9, 2012

IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER


Clapping Larry

My partner's mother literally just put weed killer down in the garden and immediately one of the Greyhounds decided to go over and lick the weeds lol

Radiation Cow
Oct 23, 2010



Since we're doing training chat, does anyone have any ideas on how to distract a prey-driven greyhound? Gello's grokked onto the fact that vizslas are nervous and fast and now chases them relentlessly. I've tried to distract her with treats, but she's much more prey-driven than treat-driven and the end result is a shivering vizsla and angry owner.

I already put her on the leash when we see them, but now she's like growling and lunging, and it's not cool and still freaks the vizslas out. Essentially, does anyone have any idea how to snap her out of murder mode when she's in it? Even if I get her attention before she sees the dog, she'll still ignore treats for chasing, every single time. (I have been working on her recall, especially when she's chasing a bird or something, and that's about 50/50 reliable at the moment).

pastor of muppets
Aug 21, 2007

We were somewhere around the Living Hive, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

Sorry, I don’t have much experience with high prey drive. My understanding though is that it’s largely dependent on the individual dog and it’s something you may or may not be able to train them out of it. My rescue categorizes dogs as “cat safe,” “not cat safe,” and “cat workable,” but I’m not sure how they distinguish who is “workable” and who is not. (I realize “cat” is not the variable in your case, but that’s primarily how they determine prey drive haha)


DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

pastor of muppets posted:

Sorry, I don’t have much experience with high prey drive. My understanding though is that it’s largely dependent on the individual dog and it’s something you may or may not be able to train them out of it. My rescue categorizes dogs as “cat safe,” “not cat safe,” and “cat workable,” but I’m not sure how they distinguish who is “workable” and who is not. (I realize “cat” is not the variable in your case, but that’s primarily how they determine prey drive haha)




Yeah same here, my intuition says you'll probably never train out instincts like prey drive I'm glad Spartacus basically doesn't give poo poo

You might be able to get her out of constant murder mode while on a lead. You're gonna need an incredible reward (does she like peanut butter? Chunks of hot dog? Stinky meat?) and shove it in her face at the first sign she notices they're there. Preferably from a large distance where she's alerted to them but not going nuts.

The problem is she's in "reactive" mode instead of operant - she's literally running on instinct by that point, and there's very little you can do to overcome that. Smooshing peanut butter all over her face might distract her enough or get her to temporarily reset long enough to start actually training, but it's going to be a hard road paved with many failures. If it works you can (very slowly, over the course of weeks) reduce the distance to the target as long as she's staying mostly calm

Radiation Cow
Oct 23, 2010



pastor of muppets posted:

Sorry, I don’t have much experience with high prey drive. My understanding though is that it’s largely dependent on the individual dog and it’s something you may or may not be able to train them out of it. My rescue categorizes dogs as “cat safe,” “not cat safe,” and “cat workable,” but I’m not sure how they distinguish who is “workable” and who is not. (I realize “cat” is not the variable in your case, but that’s primarily how they determine prey drive haha)




The funny thing is that she's completely fine with cats. And while she enjoys stalking birds, she's not particularly keen on actually chasing them. It's just big, nervous dogs that set her off. I suspect she's trying to play instead of actual murder, but that's not something the owners of the chasee want to hear (with good reason).

DarkHorse posted:

Yeah same here, my intuition says you'll probably never train out instincts like prey drive I'm glad Spartacus basically doesn't give poo poo

Yeah, that's pretty much what I suspect. I think it's a case of managing rather than fixing.

pastor of muppets
Aug 21, 2007

We were somewhere around the Living Hive, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

Yeah, maybe prey drive isn’t exactly what it is here. And it doesn’t sound like typical dog aggression since it doesn’t seem to be based in anxiety, either. Just sounds like she’s on a different social wavelength than them and isn’t taking the hint.

Maybe treating it like a dog aggression issue is a good starting point, though. I’m thinking of an old episode of It’s Me Or The Dog where a couple lived in an apartment complex with a shared common area and they couldn’t even enter it with their boxer if there was another dog around because of his dog aggression. If I remember correctly it was a long process of rewarding him whenever he turned away from them or ignored them when they walked by.

Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

Have I ever mentioned Opal's hidden "talent", of creating a thin dangling thread of nose-drool? This one slowly stretched downwards until it eventually broke, a mere couple of centimetres from the ground - I was sure it was going to make it to the ground this time, too! She's not phased though - I'm certain Opal will continue to "practice" whenever the opportunity to lay on the couch all day arises once more

Major Isoor fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Apr 6, 2021

david_a
Apr 24, 2010





Megamarm

Katie looking very noble while on the alert for squirrels yesterday

pastor of muppets
Aug 21, 2007

We were somewhere around the Living Hive, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

I appreciate the juxtaposition of the last two posts

In conclusion greyhound is a land of contrasts

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

Never seen nose drool like that

Sparty just has a little drip that you only notice if he touches you with his nose

Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

DarkHorse posted:

Never seen nose drool like that

Sparty just has a little drip that you only notice if he touches you with his nose

Yep, Opal is an odd one! Taz is the same as Sparty. Meanwhile, Opal will frequently switch between sitting in a highly dignified way, to being roaching on her back showing her inner eyelids, with her tongue dangling out and two hanging threads of drool (one from her tongue and one from her nose) racing each other to the ground.
As pom said, greys are definitely a land of contrasts! haha

Radiation Cow
Oct 23, 2010



We went away for Easter and took the dogs with. A great time was had by all. Even the fishermen were impressed by the speediness of the dogs (and how quickly Boudicca could get into their tackle).


actionjackson
Jan 12, 2003

your living room looks like shit

Abby still can't blink on her left side, but it seems like her eyelid goes down further than it did previously - hope this is actually the case and not just my imagination. I should know for sure by the end of the month.

NomNomNom
Jul 20, 2008
Please Work Out

Poop foot

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

A noodle who poop on he own foot

A shameful noodle

Radiation Cow
Oct 23, 2010



actionjackson posted:

Abby still can't blink on her left side, but it seems like her eyelid goes down further than it did previously - hope this is actually the case and not just my imagination. I should know for sure by the end of the month.

Take a photo of it now to use as a comparison. It can be tricky relying on memory and having a visual reference is invaluable.

actionjackson
Jan 12, 2003

your living room looks like shit

Abby just got a nasty laceration on her lower leg. Not sure what happened but I'm at the vet now. They mentioned treatment under sedation, I hope it's just local.

edit: just got a called, she's doing fine, just recovering right now so I should be able to pick her up in a few hours.

it's pretty amazing this is the only time she's got a serious cut on her legs given how thin their fur is.

actionjackson fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Apr 8, 2021

actionjackson
Jan 12, 2003

your living room looks like shit

Abby is back, and still out of it. Also the bed is here, so the confusion of a new bed + the confusion from her medical issue is causing some funny results

that outer ring can be detached and washed, and there is a cover of the same color that is the waterproof cordura liner, which can also be washed. then inside that, there is another liner covering the orthopedic foam.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

actionjackson fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Apr 8, 2021

NomNomNom
Jul 20, 2008
Please Work Out



Why is my dog blowing his already thin coat?! He's so bald...

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

Those socks! such huge feets

jesus WEP
Oct 17, 2004



Fun Shoe

I want a dog with a white coat and brown socks so I can call it Puddles and then spend my whole time crying at how cute it all is

actionjackson
Jan 12, 2003

your living room looks like shit

Abby is struggling after they sutured the cut on her leg. She is unable, or has a very difficult time getting up. She woke up in the middle of the night last night, I took her out, but I had to carry her out of bed, and partway down the hallway. She also fell down while urinating. She's doing a bit better today, but it's still tough for her to get up. I had her lie on my bed, and she was unable to jump up onto it like she usually does, so I had to pick her up. She was also unable to get up when I took her out, so I had to lift her up again so she could jump back down.

I did send a message to the vet, I'm hoping this is related to some sort of residual pain following the procedure. It is incredibly tough to watch her struggle like this.

jesus WEP
Oct 17, 2004



Fun Shoe

Abby

Sending all my positive thoughts to you and your sweet girl

Radiation Cow
Oct 23, 2010



Poor girl. Hopefully the vet gives some good news.

actionjackson
Jan 12, 2003

your living room looks like shit

thanks

we go behind our building when we go out, but it's a small staircase, and she wasn't able to make it all the way up this morning, so I'll be avoiding the stairs with her for now. she's been pretty good about not licking the incision site (circled in picture) either which is good.

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NomNomNom
Jul 20, 2008
Please Work Out

Aw poor girl. I hope she feels better.

Give that girl some chicken or a burger, she's looks so thin.

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