Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«6084 »
  • Post
  • Reply
HiHo ChiRho
Oct 23, 2010

Then you remember. You have a message to send.

Something everyone must know.

You have the power. You have the means.

Let it be known.




Cathair posted:

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. None of those things gave us evidence that they were El, as we think of him. Faith in El is certainly real, and has real power, but El is not.

A significant number of posters in this thread accept this as a given. This is not a matter of opinion (except that actually it is, just like yours was).

Name and shame. Dick eaters don't count.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Theglavwen
Jun 10, 2006

Frankly, I don't know anyone who likes Chinese bronzes, but I have one of the finest collections in the country.

Mike Gallego posted:

I think it's safe to say at this point that evidence points to El in fact being real. In fact, I can't honestly think of anything that suggests El is any less real than Asherah, Fare, the Zviv, or any Melachim.

El, Asherah and Fare, sure. They could all be fabrications, idols prayed too where Melachim or whatever are actually the power behind the figurehead. To equate the evidence for the existence of those three, though, with Melachim and the Zviv, whom we've actually seen and fought, is kinda reaching.

Numeron
Mar 23, 2012

A whole new world in
the palm of my hand.

El is certainly real in that it is a thing which exists.

Now whether its a metaphor or a machine or a communication network or a mana battery or an actual thinking being is another question.

I don't know myself, but my money isn't on actual thinking being.

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008


Mike Gallego posted:

Smythos explicitly called El the King of the World and the Melachim his children. Other Melachim have also referenced a Father that seems very similar to El. Sacrifices to El do things, including explicitly telling us to knock norc sacrifices off. Pledges to El have, in fact, caused Melachim to come to us and tell us to pay up.

I think it's safe to say at this point that evidence points to El in fact being real. In fact, I can't honestly think of anything that suggests El is any less real than Asherah, Fare, the Zviv, or any Melachim.

Yes, the most convincing evidence that El is a real thinking being consists of a bunch of spacemen with intellects and aims unfathomable to us telling us that El is real. Perfectly plausible theories have been discussed as to why the Melachim might want people to believe in a fictional god. Nothing about organized schemes to channel belief should seem weird to us, given that belief has real, physical power in this game world.


Jesus is colourblin posted:

This portion of Enkidel's psyche certainly sees your lips moving, but can't hear your pedantic nonsense over the sound of EL crushing all that he sees unfit to be.

Yes, Enkidel is aware that a portion of his psyche, one closely related to his impulses toward cowardice, is trying to get itself jacked up on comforting untruths. Don't worry, he has balls enough to admit to himself that this is a dumb crutch for babies, and will be all the stronger for facing the world as it really is.

DCBomB
Sep 14, 2008



HiHo ChiRho posted:

Name and shame. Dick eaters don't count.

Homophobe

SerSpook
Feb 13, 2012



Grimey Drawer

Cathair posted:

Yes, the most convincing evidence that El is a real thinking being consists of a bunch of spacemen with intellects and aims unfathomable to us telling us that El is real. Perfectly plausible theories have been discussed as to why the Melachim might want people to believe in a fictional god. Nothing about organized schemes to channel belief should seem weird to us, given that belief has real, physical power in this game world.

I'm wondering what your evidence for this interpretation is, that Melachim are spacemen and that they have some organized scheme to channel belief instead of claiming it for themselves. Particularly when Melachim don't actually seem to take that active a role in spreading belief in El that we've seen.

edit: Wanna be clear here that I don't really make a claim of El's nature beyond it's existence and that it seems to respond to the things the stories say it should. Is it awake, asleep, whatever, I don't know. Is it the creator? I don't know. Is it actually just a battery made by Melachim to store sweet, sweet worship that they call El? I don't know. But I believe something called El, with Power, exists out there. And that if it is just a worship distribution scheme, eh, the Melachim seem to be down with it? Azzazel's complaint wasn't about El, but about goats for instance.

Personally I like the idea that El is just Ea, the trickster god of the Kadmonim, that tricked Labaras and is now getting sweet, sweet worship on such a scale that he overpowered the Kadmonim gods and made them the Melachim.

SerSpook fucked around with this message at Sep 4, 2014 around 05:42

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008


Mike Gallego posted:

I'm wondering what your evidence for this interpretation is, that Melachim are spacemen and that they have some organized scheme to channel belief instead of claiming it for themselves. Particularly when Melachim don't actually seem to take that active a role in spreading belief in El that we've seen.

'Spacemen' was just a sarcastic moniker, don't take it too literally. Though they do have an understanding of science surpassing that of the real world, and it's anyone's guess as to whether they actually live on the planet, so I guess calling them extraterrestrial energy beings might not be far off base?

Anyway, it has been repeatedly stated that while the Melachim don't especially encourage a belief in El, they discourage direct worship of themselves. Given that what we know points to El not existing as a sentient being, they're not doing that out of deference to a stronger power, there must be more to it. Others have posted more in-depth theorycrafting, but this much alone qualifies as an organized scheme to channel belief. For what, I have no idea, personally I don't think we have enough information to broach that topic at the moment.

Edit:

Mike Gallego posted:

edit: Wanna be clear here that I don't really make a claim of El's nature beyond it's existence and that it seems to respond to the things the stories say it should. Is it awake, asleep, whatever, I don't know. Is it the creator? I don't know. Is it actually just a battery made by Melachim to store sweet, sweet worship that they call El? I don't know. But I believe something called El, with Power, exists out there. And that if it is just a worship distribution scheme, eh, the Melachim seem to be down with it? Azzazel's complaint wasn't about El, but about goats for instance.

Personally I like the idea that El is just Ea, the trickster god of the Kadmonim, that tricked Labaras and is now getting sweet, sweet worship on such a scale that he overpowered the Kadmonim gods and made them the Melachim.

Well... yeah. Of course they'd be down with it if it's some form of worship distribution scheme, in the case of that being true then they would've been the ones who set it up. I don't imagine they'd get very concerned about it on a day to day basis, religion is a tide that cranks up and winds down over generations.

I'm also not arguing that something called 'El' doesn't exist. People pray to it and things happen. There's this mighty thing over Mt Har, it clearly exists. Whether it's actually a cogent intellect, or a battery, or a bunch of Melachim in an ethereal call center, that's the part that's highly arguable.

Cathair fucked around with this message at Sep 4, 2014 around 05:55

SerSpook
Feb 13, 2012



Grimey Drawer

I'm telling you. It is Ea. That will be the coolest thing, out of all of the theories. Dude would have enslaved his brother and sister deities after he tricked stupid humans into worshiping him as some sort of One God. Sound familiar?

Slaan
Mar 16, 2009

I GAIN POWER FROM EATING PEOPLE, JUST ASSUME I'M ALWAYS VOTING TO EAT PEOPLE



Nap Ghost

Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:

No one may no our greatest secret. No. One. Ishamal must die.

I've been telling the thread this for ages now, but they just won't listen!

Grognan
Jan 23, 2007

Money And Power Through Homicide!



Honestly El could be a charter that all the Melakim agreed upon at some point. Perhaps some of them have strayed but it seems there is a core purpose and existence pointing to El outside of the Melakim.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

I don't want Ishamal to die, I just want someone to call him out on his poo poo so irrefutably and utterly hard that he finally has to admit that trying to hold us back as much as he did (Mostly in the knowledge department, with a secondary in understanding what the hell we're capable of) actively contributed to screwing the celestial pooch he was trying to avoid us screwing.

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

We are so like the Melachim. Their Father is also formless and unknowable. Deadbeat dads...

UppaTree
May 3, 2013



So.. What evidence do we have that El is not a thinking being? There are plenty of other reasons we haven't seen Him directly. Remember Ishamal's demonstration about how even a little exertion (turning a flower petal to stone) could have dire consequences?

WE might break the world, and we aren't even a Melachim. Imagine if the literal hand of God, rather than a messenger, were to reach out and directly interact with this delicate world. Hulk playing Jenga comes to mind.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


There is a creator and he made both the angels and mankind. If the angels believe El created them then he is likely that same creator. Or they are mistaken somehow. The angels created all life that dwells on Ur.


And on the sixth day something really hosed up happened. Probably angels decided humans were tasty and became demons.

100 HOGS AGREE
Oct 13, 2007

Alcohol...
It's the water of life.



Grimey Drawer

Can't wait for like page 4000 of the thread where Snarls and Enkidel step out of their primitive spaceship and into space station EL to finally confront the M.E.L.A.C.H.I.M.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


I can't help still being completely baffled as to why we collectively decided not to stop the horrible evil ritual and instead ran away.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


It's like the options were there. Completely obvious for all to see.

Kill the priest? Very difficult but if we did it we'd stop it completely.
If we failed we might stall the ritual.

Kill the sacrifice. Merciful. High probability of success. Optimal choice. Stall the ritual. Maybe even cause some feedback.

Kill two random norcs and a minotaur then run away.

rex monday
Jul 9, 2001

Pisk. Pisk. Piiiiiiisk!

Affi posted:

It's like the options were there. Completely obvious for all to see.

Kill the priest? Very difficult but if we did it we'd stop it completely.
If we failed we might stall the ritual.

Kill the sacrifice. Merciful. High probability of success. Optimal choice. Stall the ritual. Maybe even cause some feedback.

Kill two random norcs and a minotaur then run away.

I voted to sneak around and come from the other side after hitting the randos with arrows. I figured we'd at least see more stuff or get more opportunities to act. I was hoping for one last chance to sneak close and take a really risky shot at the leader.

Lanky Coconut Tree
Apr 7, 2011

An angry tree.

The angriest tree


100 HOGS AGREE posted:

Can't wait for like page 4000 of the thread where Snarls and Enkidel step out of their primitive spaceship and into space station EL to finally confront the M.E.L.A.C.H.I.M.

wasn't this a dan simmons book


Affi posted:

I can't help still being completely baffled as to why we collectively decided not to stop the horrible evil ritual and instead ran away.

talk to the antifun crew

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

brexit means brexit


Because the "obviously creepy ritual" may have actually gotten worse if we had intervened, any of the Norcs could have gotten access to the altar, any of the sacrifices would have been fine etc etc.

Choosing the safer option is not all that bad considering how much everyone was shouting at everyone else about letting us get "killed" at the temple.

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002


Josef bugman posted:

Because the "obviously creepy ritual" may have actually gotten worse if we had intervened, any of the Norcs could have gotten access to the altar, any of the sacrifices would have been fine etc etc.

Choosing the safer option is not all that bad considering how much everyone was shouting at everyone else about letting us get "killed" at the temple.

You call it "Anti-fun", I call it "check your death wish"

Pladdicus
Aug 13, 2010

"Sometimes life is too uncertain to have regrets."

Affi posted:

It's like the options were there. Completely obvious for all to see.

Kill the priest? Very difficult but if we did it we'd stop it completely.
If we failed we might stall the ritual.

Kill the sacrifice. Merciful. High probability of success. Optimal choice. Stall the ritual. Maybe even cause some feedback.

Kill two random norcs and a minotaur then run away.

My concern in killing the sacrifice was that her death might just trigger the ritual and in that case we've just hosed up big. In killing him that it was super unlikely, but I was still for it.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

Fun Shoe

Affi posted:

There is a creator and he made both the angels and mankind. If the angels believe El created them then he is likely that same creator. Or they are mistaken somehow. The angels created all life that dwells on Ur.


And on the sixth day something really hosed up happened. Probably angels decided humans were tasty and became demons.

On the sixth day, the Creator exploded and the remnants reformed into the Demon Lords. So we have Fare representing one "aspect" of the Creator, and Asherah another, and Quezlal a third, and Dragoom fourth.

Whether El is the "benevolent" aspect or a fabrication or a trickster or a battery is up to you.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


If you have a ritual that explicitly says; chant these words for 6 hours, dig this pattern in the ground and then sacrifice the virgin.. Then killing the sacrifice before finishing the chant or the pattern will not achieve the desired effect!

THAT IS HOW RITUALS WORK!


and don't call them the anti fun crew. I refuse to do some of the idiotic things people occasionally suggest too. They might be the too scared crew.

dyzzy
Dec 22, 2009

argh


Yeah anti-fun might be the wrong label, maybe pro-ritual?

HiHo ChiRho
Oct 23, 2010

Then you remember. You have a message to send.

Something everyone must know.

You have the power. You have the means.

Let it be known.




Speleothing posted:

On the sixth day, the Creator exploded and the remnants reformed into the Demon Lords. So we have Fare representing one "aspect" of the Creator, and Asherah another, and Quezlal a third, and Dragoom fourth.

Whether El is the "benevolent" aspect or a fabrication or a trickster or a battery is up to you.

Nah, I think they were all just normal Melachim. One of them, Fare of Asherah likely, decided they didn't like the status quo and started a Clash of the Heavens. Something catastrophic happened.

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

Fandom is misery.



HiHo ChiRho posted:

Nah, I think they were all just normal Melachim. One of them, Fare of Asherah likely, decided they didn't like the status quo and started a Clash of the Heavens. Something catastrophic happened.
One of the thread theories is that too much direct worship of a Melachim warps the Melachim, making the Melachim crave further worship and sacrifices in their name, perhaps growing addicted to it. That is how all the Greater Demoms are made, and that's why El exists: to act as a well to pool the collective worship energies of humanity that the Melachim can feed off safely.

Magnus Venator
Jul 17, 2006

Trekker pŚ 1/5 sek. Svak for kvinner og hasard. NervÝs, innesluttet, med psykopatiske trekk.

JT Jag posted:

One of the thread theories is that too much direct worship of a Melachim warps the Melachim, making the Melachim crave further worship and sacrifices in their name, perhaps growing addicted to it. That is how all the Greater Demoms are made, and that's why El exists: to act as a well to pool the collective worship energies of humanity that the Melachim can feed off safely.

If this is true, I wonder which Melachim is currently getting the most worship. Will Smythos (Demon of fire) turn demonic before Marnal (Demon of grief)?

Did we ever get an update where Diogenes states which one is the most popular among the El-forsaken heathens?

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

Fandom is misery.



Magnus Venator posted:

If this is true, I wonder which Melachim is currently getting the most worship. Will Smythos (Demon of fire) turn demonic before Marnal (Demon of grief)?

Did we ever get an update where Diogenes states which one is the most popular among the El-forsaken heathens?
The process of worship addiction probably isn't pleasant until you have fully succumbed to it and also probably drives the Melachim in question mad, which is why keeping an eye on heretics is so important. Sure, they could grow more powerful by succumbing, but they have it good now and they've SEEN what happens.

So, to answer your question, I'm guessing none of the current major Melachim would go demon, just because the number of worshippers required to tip the balance would get straight up smote before it could finish.

e: And by the way, if we survive these events somehow, the moment Paebel strays from us to strike off on his own the Melachim are gonna pay him a visit, because he's a heretic with a following and that's how bad poo poo starts, no matter how well intentioned.

JT Jag fucked around with this message at Sep 4, 2014 around 16:13

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


I believe we can find some truths in how we react to our balls.

We are likely at least partially angelic. They are either followers or worshippers. But if they give us power? I don't know.

Tax Inductions
Jul 9, 2007

I carry refreshments to the good guys
I made the good guys some home fries


El is the real, sentient creator of the universe, everything revolves around humans, demons and evil only exist to test and challenge humans, wrongness only exists for humans to right it.

Everyone who dies gets to attempt to climb the mountain, melachim-worshippers are misguided at best, all of the old tales are true.

FoxTerrier
Feb 15, 2012

Perfectly logical poster who uses the tools available to him to come to solid conclusions



Magnus Venator posted:

If this is true, I wonder which Melachim is currently getting the most worship. Will Smythos (Demon of fire) turn demonic before Marnal (Demon of grief)?

Did we ever get an update where Diogenes states which one is the most popular among the El-forsaken heathens?

Marnal made a deal with the norcs to increase suffering in the world and prayers to her, so she could grow over powered and consume the world.

At least, that's what Im taking away from this discussion.*

*imnotseriouslypropisingthisasatheorypleasealldontjumponmeatoncetia

HiHo ChiRho
Oct 23, 2010

Then you remember. You have a message to send.

Something everyone must know.

You have the power. You have the means.

Let it be known.




Snarls is secretly El in mortal form. El likes playing the long con.

alpaca diseases
May 19, 2009



I don't know if this would go without saying so voting to at least tell Aaron about Norkidel, what we sensed about him etc- so he isn't potentially (fatally) caught off guard

John_A_Tallon
Nov 22, 2000

Oh my! Check out that mitre!


If Enkidel survives this little trip underground, we'll have a problem to deal with back in Zepath. All those slaves we freed are going to be helped by the Melachim worshipers and will be likely to fall into the practice themselves. We've set the stage for major social issues and potentially boosted the population of Melachim worshipers in one place high enough to be of notice.

The old tales are very clear on the matter of Melachim worship. We'll need to address this before it becomes an actionable problem.

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002


John_A_Tallon posted:

If Enkidel survives this little trip underground, we'll have a problem to deal with back in Zepath. All those slaves we freed are going to be helped by the Melachim worshipers and will be likely to fall into the practice themselves. We've set the stage for major social issues and potentially boosted the population of Melachim worshipers in one place high enough to be of notice.

The old tales are very clear on the matter of Melachim worship. We'll need to address this before it becomes an actionable problem.

Can you point to the part where our heretic balls are open about what they're doing (aside from being a poorly kept secret within our balls), or where they evangelize? Because I'm pretty sure that our balls are still mostly orthodox believers, and the heretical ones aren't really going to shout out "Shout outs to my boy Smythos for the assist down here!" to the rescued people.

FoxTerrier
Feb 15, 2012

Perfectly logical poster who uses the tools available to him to come to solid conclusions



They're being helped by Melachim worshippers, but they were also saved by El worshippers in the ToE (who gave the credit of that event to El). I wouldn't say their conversion is a given.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


John_A_Tallon posted:

The old tales are very clear on the matter of Melachim worship. We'll need to address this before it becomes an actionable problem.

We should really. Probably a good idea to talk to Paebel. He's our bro. And bros don't care about the other bros religion. But we can ask him to not preach of the melechim to the freed slaves. Because it was El who saved them through us.

Wrote a bunch of nonsense. We shouldn't preach to our bro Paebel. But we can make sure we personally help the freed slaves as much as the melechim worshippers do. And praise El.

Bros before religion.

Affi fucked around with this message at Sep 4, 2014 around 17:08

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

Fandom is misery.



Affi posted:

We should really. Probably a good idea to talk to Paebel. He's our bro. And bros don't care about the other bros religion. But we can ask him to not preach of the melechim to the freed slaves. Because it was El who saved them through us.
Maybe we could gently talk to him on religious matters some time. Not in a HAVE YOU HEARD THE GOOD WORD OF EL way, but perhaps just quietly ask him if he's ever thought of the possibility that, perhaps, the Melachim don't want to be worshipped.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


I would actually like his opinion on why melechim have told us not to worship them.

But mostly I want to fist bump him if we make it out alive.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«6084 »